It's not time to move center, left or right. It's not time for changing

what we believe at all.

It's time to start making a fucking argument. That's all.

Make your case, make it strong.

And Joe Sixpack is the audience you must craft your argument towards.

No whining, no bullshit.

Republican= Robber Barons
Democrats= Champions of the Poor

Republicans point to the New Deal and Great Society which have been around so long they know how to manipulate like a fiddle, and go "Lying Democrats! look at all the protections you have against big business and all the rest! you're not poor because of rich people, you're poor because GOVERNMENT gets in the way and keeps you from getting what you deserve!"

We REFUSE to look at our institutions to fix them, Republicans manipulate them, and in 4 years they're going to flat our take a lot of them away.

after they trash all the good things the New Deal did?

Republicans are dead from the head down.

I hate to see that happen; Social Security is a downhill view for me, but whatever it takes.

I know, second place doesn't get you anything and because of this loss, we are fucked for a while.

But before we make radical changes, we should reflect on the fact that this wasn't a landslide. This wasn't a Dukakis sized loss.

This was 2% and one state -- even with a "wartime" incumbant "president", a hostile media, a surprise from Osama, raging homophobia, and a "Stolen Honor" informercial playing repeatedly the weekend before the election.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Next time we just have to focus the message, collect a little more money, and get a little lucky.

better.

We don't have to "move right" on things like gay marriage and abortion rights, but we should make it clear that they should be state-decided issues. Alabama residents don't like them? Fine - they can vote referendum-style on them. Counter the idea that social issues they don't agree with are being forced upon them by liberal outsiders. Mutual understanding: one group doesn't force its values on the other group, the other group doesn't force its values on the one group. And we can together focus on the pocketbook and foreign policy issues that we both agree with.

Dean could yell, but hes sounds crazy now b/c when he starts going off you just wait for the YEAHHAHAHA and he loses his effectiveness; Preachers yell and they sound correct (at least to the non-thinkers). That's why the right can brainwash so well; they know how to yell. Rush & Savage know how to yell.

But we run into problems b/c we can't yell on TV interviews and the yellers win talk show arguments and come off "stronger"...bill mahr can yell, we need people who can yell.

this wasn't like dukakis or mondale where they swept to a huge victory and we lost by a huge amount.

props; it was clear to me from day one.

For starters let's stop calling our form of government a democracy and instead call it what it is: plutocracy 1. Government by the wealthy. 2. A wealthy class that controls a government. 3. A government or state in which the wealthy rule.

Secondly, let's not allow Bush and his cronies to call themselves Republicans or "compassionate conservatives;" instead, let's call them what they are-- plutocrat 1. A member of a governing wealthy class. 2. One having political control or influence because of wealth.

Our language is too fucking complex for a dummed down public.

Make it SIMPLE like Clinton made it!!!!

It's not guns, gays, morals, Vietnam, the candidate, Iraq, abortion.

It's how you talk about your issues, how you talk about yourself, and how your talk about your opponent.

Even before 2000, the man's resume was a catalogue of abject failure.
Now in 2004, he is mired in scandal, corruption, incompetence, radical fundamentalist ideology and economic plunder. But because our party declined to call him out on his crimes and failures for fear of media censure and RW backlash, we delude ourselves that his win is an indication that we are the ones who are not properly positioned.

It's very tiresome to hear that liberals are "out of the mainstream"
and must move to the right to win votes.

If this country was overwhelmingly conservative, as we are being
led to believe ad nauseum, and if the RWers were so much better than us in getting out the vote, then why is it that the evidence points to demonstrable and massive GOP voter intimidation, suppression, fraud and disenfranchisement?

If the right had the mandate they claim to have, who would need inauditable voting machines? Who would need poll challengers numbering in the thousands in swing states? Who would need to alter exit polling data to match the results of BBV?

This country does not overwhelmingly lean to the right or else
presidential elections would be a week-long, work-free holiday
event with voter education, free lunches door prizes and massive media analysisand coverage.

Corporate media is framing the debate to benefit corporate takeover
of a government formerly of, by, and for the people. The targeted
groups for marginalization are gays, feminists, environmentalists,
civil rights advocates, racial minorities, atheists etc.

What do all these disparate groups have in common? They are against
the status quo. They challenge the notion that rich white men know what's best for us and should make all the decisions (decisions which always benefit the wealthy few to the detriment of the many) regarding our individual rights, morality, welfare, safety, working conditions, reproductive choice, environmental oversight and validity of secular and religious values.

Let's reclaim the true connotation of the term "liberal"
from the pejorative by delineating its essential qualities:

lib·er·al


Bestowed in a large way; hence, more than sufficient; abundant; bountiful; ample; profuse; as, a liberal gift; a liberal discharge of matter or of water.

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.

It's time for our Democratic leaders, starting in the Senate, to fight more.

They're the most powerful people we've got right now, and we need them to work like mad.

I firmly believe that Iraq will blow up in Republicans' faces, and we'll be left with the whole show and a REAL mandate.

In order to do that, we cannot waiver.

But we can't give up the Supreme Court, which, I believe, is the number one most important fight over the next two years.

But we shouldn't budge a bit.

I think with AAR taking off, we'll have a much better time with our ability to persuade.

One of the best effects of AM radio for Republicans was their ability to 'educate' the masses, and allow Republicans to talk to their friends with specific talking points. We don't have that, yet.

I'd say "Make it SMART".

We are as right today as we were on Nov. 1. We are right about the war, right about the economy, right about the lies and idiocy of this president, and right about the need for equal rights for all Americans.

Losing the election, especially with the hateful campaign Bush ran and the widespread voter intimidation and apparent fraud they perpetrated, does not make us wrong.

We were almost there. We need to focus on getting our message out more effectively. I suspect it will get a lot easier as Bush inevitably screws things up and pisses people off over the next few years.

I'd like to see us put a lot of time and money into media.

According to all accounts I've read, we lost on "values" because we didn't clearly state what ours are. We spent so much time and effort and money being defensive and "fighting them" that the things we actually stand for didn't get through to the public in a clear way.

Define our values. There's already a separate thread on this to do so.

K/E made little mention of working and poor people after the convention. It was all about preserving "middle class tax cuts". The halfhearted pro-corporate economic and healthcare policies would have done little for those who work two jobs 60+ hours a week, just so they can pay the light bill.

They love it when we back off our party issues...then they take them up.

over dinner. The changes need to be made by the people in the red states, not us. If nothing comes of this voter fraud issue, and we are stuck with Bush another four years, things will get worse. People's children who are of age will be drafted, oil prices will go sky high, along with other consumables and food costs. Social injustices will continue and worsen, and there will be more 911 strikes in the USA. But maybe that will be what it takes for these people to change their minds.

I keep hoping that Clinton was the sacrificial lamb making the statement he did, to throw people off while Kerry & group putsue the voting fraud issue.

If I'm wrong, then God help us all during the next four years.

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i completely agree with what you wrote ... there is nothing wrong with any position taken by democrats ... our positions do not need to be cast aside so that we can win ... that is pure nonsense ... what's the point of winning if you abandon what you're fighting for ???

and i completely agree that we have not laid an adequate foundation for many positions we take ... we have not adequately prepared the "framework" for those arguments ... i'm on board 100% with discussions about the language we use to communicate ...

the one important piece i think you've omitted from your theme is the importance of grassroots organizing ... we did many things very well but, at least in Massachusetts where i live, there barely is "a party" ... maybe that's why in a "liberal" state, we haven't had a democratic governor since Dukakis ... a party infrastructure needs to be built ... and building it needs to start now, not just in an election year ...

That's perfect. So true.

I think we may need to define ourselves better. And, yes, work like hell to get the message out there.