folks, it's time to let the republicans have the jesus vote.

this whole rural/urban, metro/retro schizm could really be boiled down to one question: "will god protect america, no matter what we do?" if you answered yes to this question, you are a fundie. these people have shown us that common sense and reality-based government does not matter so much, because jesus will take care of the loose ends. They are convienently relieved of responsibility for the big thngs, so they can feel free to vote about gays, guns, abortion, whatever. we need to be the voice of reason, of science, of common fucking sense - for everyone else. there is no need to stoop to the fundie's level, they will NEVER vote for us anyway. we need to be the party for those who think that our policies and actions have very real repurcussions, and that our fate as a nation IS IN OUR OWN HANDS! i really think that the fundies have scared the living shit out of a lot of right-leaning people this year. we need to EMPHASIZE our distinction from them, not try to court them. we need to ostracize the fundies as the raving lunatics they are. let us demonize them the way they demonize us as "liberal elitists". we are the age of enlightenment, they are the dark ages. let us draw our distinctions and really win some votes.

If we have a religious candidate (anyone but Lieberman, please) there's no reason the Jesus vote can't go Democratic

fuck the fundies.


i am perfectly okay with demonizing them. exposing all of their follies, and exposing the hell out of them for the nutcases they are.



this serves twofold....it allows the religious to seperate themsleves formt he fundies...

and it allows the fundies to well go fuck themselves. and shrivel off and die.

which is much better than recognizing them courting them and letting them multiply.

pushes the moderately religious deeper into their embrace.

And they're winning.

I would think rational moderately religious (like my family, for example) distance themselves, form those who would prefer we revert to the 15th century. (and we've got those in our family too)

it is time for all out war against fundies. they started this culture war, we need to finish it.

and sensible religous folk. We need to make them see the danger of theocracy, and why the founding fathers designed our government the way they did. We need to box off the fundies and target them for political destruction.

It is time for us to really start talking about the secular libertarian values our country was founded on. Democrats cannot be hostile to religion or imply atheism is the better way. Instead we should talk about religous freedom, separation of church and state, and personal freedom. That should be our frame.

They HATE that!

it seems to me that your strategy is not a good one, unless we figure that losing by 3% is not enough when we can just go for broke and lose by 80 or 90% instead.

Maybe we need to make a distinction between mainstream Christians and the Fallwellians and Dobsonites. (You know, like we do when we hear freepers blaming all Muslims for 9/11.) And then we couls start presenting our principles that everyone is talking about as part of a moral vision that values eqality and opportunity--things that we do because they are right--rather than as a collection of policies designed to meet the needs of constituencies.

Hey, it's just a thought.

i am talking about cutting out the cancer of the fundies- before they can fully infect the rest of the christian vote. we need intelligent, moderate christians- but we don't need these fundamentalist wackos that have hijacked the GOP, and are hijacking our country.

The idea that if you are born again it doesn't matter what you do because God will save you regardless (think Calvin's elect--no good works needed). By extension, if your country is "born again" (sufficiently righteous), then what you do (bad deeds, policy blunders) is immaterial, irrelevant because God will protect you because of your exceptionalism (favored status).

don't know with what success.

BTW, what does that include besides Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Episcopalians?

On a side note, did anyone catch this, by Bush yesterday:

"A great -- the great tradition of America is one where people can worship the way they want to worship. And if they choose not to worship, they're just as patriotic as your neighbor. That is an essential part of why we are a great nation."

What's he trying to do, split us up?

I envision candidates coming forward in guaranteed-loss elections
that call for the government to formally endorse methodists and
not episcopals. Then other candidates can call for an end to
supporting pentacostal ministries as they are not legitimate compared
to pat robertson. Stewing below the "christian" unity of the pukes
is a sectarian nightmare. With a tiny bit of stirring, the whole
thing could explode.

it says "god bless the usa, but vote." i believe in god, but i most certainly don't think that god will automatically save this country. its up to us

1. the current fundamentalist movement is happening in all religions but is most troublesome in the three monotheistic religions right now.

2. fundamentalist movements are not new, historically they have happened in times of great change in society. (think: globalization)

3. fundamentalists are frightened of the change and want to maintain the status quo (progressives or liberals will never win them over.)

MOST IMPORTANTLY

4. fundamentalists feel threatened. They feel as though their way of life is under attack. Their very existence is under attack. Those are strong emotions which provoke strong/violent acts.

Read: The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong. She is VERY worried about the rise of fundamentalism world wide. It is a very destructive force. (Think 9/11.)

Maybe our best bet is to do just what we want the middle east to do with Islam. Force the moderates to control and marginalize the fundamentalists. But you must remember #4. These people will not go quietly into the good night.

I tried to have an email discussion with a fundie who shared another passion of mine (we are glass blowers). Lasted a total of 3 emails and she cut it off. I think it was me saying something about not understanding how she can feel threatened in America where 85% are Christian. We can't reach out to them but, more important than just the political question, we need to insure they are seen as a crazy fringe element. Only other christians can help us do that.

As scared as I am about the next four years I think that if Bush were to give into the fundies (different group that evangelicals with lots of overlap) it could cause a backlash with moderate religious people.

We should work to split the religious groups AND to split the republicans.

godless liberals such as myself lose all credibility in thier eyes, much like an m16-toting american soldier trying to disuede an islamic fundamentalist. we need to reach out to the moderates, and let them take thier religion back from the wackos. and we DEFINATELY need to break off the paleo-cons from the neocons and the fundies. when bush finishes selling out to the these groups for the next 4 years, the real conservatives will be ready to jump ship. libertarian party- are you listening!!

white voters. You shouldn't general as such. Because you are excluding a lot of folks who are up until now, on your side.

you know, the fundamentalist wackos, who put faith before logic. basically, anyone who would answer "yes" to my question.

I don't think the Democrats have targeted Falwell-loving fundies in quite awhile.

I've met with them. This election cycle mobilized them and they are alive and well now.

Just because someone believes in Jesus and practices the Gospel does not make them a homophobe or a Chimpy supporter.

There are actually ways to splinter the "Pro-Life" vote with the Bush wars and deaths of innocent, pregnant women.

Add that abortion rates have actually gone up since Bush started His Reign and you have another wedge issue.

It's got to be about reversing the wedge issues the Repugs have with Christians.

i personally dont want to have to vote repug, please dont make.

thinking that isnt gonna work. besides, since i am not voting repug, i dont like the christian repugs saying i am not christian cause i vote democrat

Jesus isn't the problem- the problem is bastards like Bush who use Jesus to coopt people.

THAT's the fact that conservatives don't get. Preach the liberalism of Jesus (and for that matter, the liberalism of Abraham Lincoln).