The danger of thinking the election was stolen ... if it wasn't.

Turn off the flames for a moment ok ;)

The ultimate tinfoil theory:

I was thinking what a double edged sword this fraud thing is. It plays into the R's hands if we think the election was stolen because were not likely to continue voting if it does no good right? Additionally, were not likely to examine why we may have lost, if we lost legit like.

Food for thought is all. I'm not asking anyone to entertain the possibility that the election may NOT have been stolen.

But for those convinced it was ... are you planning to vote in 06/08?

:shrug:

time, but we have no choice but to proceed as if our vote counts if you are trying to do anything. In case it does count.

and i will do everything i can to ensure every democrat in my precinct/city/state does the same.


nothing quite like a boycott by 50% of the population to make you rethink your voting equipment i would think.

vote, they can "catch up" in the BBV part of the vote as quickly as an electron can fly...

12,000 to 0?



that's not gonna fly.


or they could add some numbers in, and then we come out ahead once the absentees are cast.

with about 600 voters total. No outcry. So what's your point...

surely the people in Gahana are doing the needful, no?



if not i guess the more important question is, why are people so willing to accept voter fraud?

They cannot trouble their "beautiful minds" away from pro football and Survivor.

Seriously.

I live in "red state America" where most are quite happy with the result of the election, so I cannot speak to the outrage or lack thereof in downtown Cleveland and Detroit.

I'm in georgia.


but i'm hard-pressed to think that people wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if this was brought to their attentions.

though that is tempting. And I hope you don't either.

I think elections reform is my top priority over the next year or two.

i'm a soldier ready and waiting for a mission.

I realize that at the founding of this country I was not allowed to vote. It took over 100 years for women to get the right to vote. It is a right I hold to be preciousssssssssssssss, I WILL NOT abandon the right to the far right!

No defeat no surrender!

I will vote in 2006 and beyond but the Dems will have to WORK for that vote!

I know I would. I do think we'd have the most meticulous exit polls imaginable up-and-running by then, no matter how this all turns out. We need to know. Period. It's not a partisan issue.

Come on, if there is a remote possibility that 228 years of US history can be undermined because someone hacked into a few Windows-based PC's...I think a rational response might be to stop playing the rigged game.

It is not our responsibility to hope that it was fair, it is our system's responsibility to convince us. If the Party we support fails to convince us, then we should stop supporting that Party.

If the election was stolen do I plan to vote? If the election was stolen, which is a certainty IMO, it doesn't make much difference what any of us plan to do. What is being planned for us is my worry.

Most of them showed up to vote. 3-4 million (if that was indeed the margin-I don't believe that), spread out across the country, is not enough of a reason to give a shit about some narrow, exclusive opposition agenda. We do need to be more forceful in promoting ours. That means more voting, not less. I can't imagine any thinking person making any credible argument for not voting based on a stolen election. It should make us more determined to get our side to the polls.

Evangelicals made the difference for Bush? Folks who watch Benny Hinn and believe he knocks people down with the power of God in his fingers? Pfffttt!! That's not a majority, it's a mindless mob of ignorant sheep. We need to continue to fight to keep Americans in the world of reality. Our vote is the instrument of our collective conscience. It is our warrant to the realization of our needs and concerns.

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Help expose the election 2004 voter fraud today!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

If that creep can still have a career, then none of us, who are as famous as him are going to get a scratch. What the Hell do we have to lose...except another election with these blasted machines?

> Geraldo recovered after the Al Capone vault thing. If that creep can still have a career...

You call working at Faux a career? Their 10 viewers are probably so stupid they don't remember the vault.

and Kerry won my county!!! I will always vote.


At the very least, even if no large fraud is discovered, we need to push for voter reform. Make it easier to register and vote. Make sure that touch screen machines generate a paper ballot that can be recounted.

Another benefit of the touch screens that I noticed when I early voted was that you could vote at any polling place and pull up the ballot for your precinct. That means that any voter could be able to vote at any polling place. That would be nice.

Now, to get that done with the Republican majority. ;)

then Americans had better stop voting, and get in the streets and stay there until they have their country back.

:hi:

Of course, getting ** out is a wet dream, but really -- for me the point in making a fuss about BBV is not to undermine people's faith in the electoral process, but to improve it!

Frankly, the whole process has felt like a farce since 2000, and now it's just over the top. Reliability **must** be restored. If 51% of America wants B**, well, I want proof. Then I'll accept it.

Right now I don't believe it, and I don't accept it.

I might not vote if we don't make sweeping changes. Heck, I'd rather go watch the sunset or something.

It worked fine in pioneer days with paper ballots.

Democracy works fine. Anything less than a fair and honest election is unneccessary and unacceptable, and can only be caused by incompetent or corrupt officials. It is the Republicans who have peddled the idea that there are "problems" with the process and that "improvements" are needed. Those improvements enriched Bush's friends who make the machines and resulted in a stolen election.

What needs improvement is the backbone of the people and the integrity of our officials.

.
is far, far worse than the scenario you give, in my opinion.

Because if it WAS stolen and we refused to inquire about it or raise hell about it, then we will never win an election fair and square again, because there WON'T BE a "fair and square" again.

CHANGE. The fact that some Americans don't have faith in the system is enough reason. We don't need a stolen election to lobby for an overhaul.

:hi:

There is no choice to be made.

The methodology used for voting must be investigated. Period.

No choice.

:hi:

I like it when that happens. :thumbsup:

I almost jumped in. :-)

:thumbsup:

Regardless of whether or not this election was "stolen," there is still rampant fraud & corruption & errors. It's an unregulated mess with little or no oversight or security.

:hi:

however, the issue here regardless of the outcome of voter fraud, is to either do away with these machines, or find some kind of safeguards regarding the software and the allignment of companies like Diebold to potential candidates. This is not a simple issue, laws will have to be passed with strict guidelines.

Perhaps we will not see sufficient votes to say, yes, this was fraud.( I doubt it though) But so far, what we are seeing are frightening discrepancies in tabulation. This in itself should warrant red flag status, and more than just raised eyebrows.

No, I think this will bite the GOP's in the ass. Every site I go to is talking about this, people are aware that there is some funny business going on, and they are pissed off about it. they have "boxed" us into a corner, and it looks to me as though we are going to come out fighting, which means changes will be made.

If we sit here and think oh gee, they've got the boxes and ring our hands and do nothing and then on top of that, don't vote, then we're a bunch of pussies.

I know you don't believe this, but you're floating it out there anyway, so I'll take a stab at it...

So, if I follow you correctly, Republican operatives allowed this election to proceed fair-and-square, but planted the seeds of doubt with a Diebold "red-herring."

The result would mean a potential loss of faith in Democracy, and a reduced potentiality for self-examination?

So the right-wing simply used voting-booth fear as a psyop to discourage voting? What about the tip-of-the-iceberg evidence that Republican and Democrat votes were flipped in certain counties by those diabolical Diebold machines which have been openly proven to be hackable? Those machines were planted to instill doubt, but worked flawlessly nonetheless - and no tampering took place with the central tabulators?

And all of this, just to discourage people from voting next time - distracting the Democratic party from making unnecessary changes to its value system?

I'm sorry. I can't follow this line of thinking any further.

Doing this would require the effort of lifting a glacier, for the outcome of an ice-cube.

votes don't really count, so why bother.

I'm actually 80% convinced the election was stolen, but if it wasn't and we were all convinced it was ... it would be hard to motivate voters to the polls in 08.

Dot the "i's" and cross the "t's".

Then push it to the masses.

and hopefully not on you. If this issue isn't resolved soon, there may be rioting in the streets like they've never seen before.

Hell I may move to Ohio, ya know where "Vote early, Vote Often" has a whole new meaning. I am kidding there, I am more likely to move to Pa, where I am from. (BLUE!)

keeps increasing exponentially with each election they engineer. Ignoring it is better, HOW?

I think there was fraud and we have to pursue it, but if after doing so were still discouraged from voting ... it's a win/win for the Republicans.

:shrug:

convinced it's a sham. We need to end up with people encouraged at the end of this process. Fraud shouldn't even by a question by 2008 if we've done what needs to be done.