"Contrary to spin, gay rights did not determine election, data show"

http://www.freedomtomarry.org/document.asp?doc_id=2039

snip

In the 3 battleground states where an anti-marriage amendment was on the ballot, Kerry did better than Gore

Sen. Kerry carried Oregon by a wider margin than Vice President Gore in 2000. (In 2000, the vote was 713,577 for Gore (47%) to 720,342 (47%) for Bush. In 2000, the vote was 889,005 (52%) to 819,207 (48%) for Bush.) In other words, Kerry’s support was 24% higher than Gore’s, while Bush’s support grew by only 18%.

In Michigan, Sen. Kerry received the same percent of the vote (51%) as Vice President Gore and increased the number of votes in the Democratic column by 227, 422. Finally, in Ohio, Sen. Kerry won at least 49% of the vote (Gore won 46%) and 199,435 more voters cast a vote in the presidential race than on the marriage amendment, indicating that the presidential race - not the marriage amendment - was the pull to the polls. There is a greater analysis of Michigan and Ohio below.

In Michigan and Oregon, anti-gay marriage amendments were approved. Voters in those states also backed Kerry over Bush.

snip

Both Michigan and Ohio approved their anti-family amendments, yet Michigan went for Kerry 51-48%.
Blacks and Latinos voted overwhelmingly for Kerry in both Michigan and Ohio (Blacks were slightly more likely to back Kerry in Michigan than in Ohio, while Latinos were slightly more likely to back Kerry in Ohio than in Michigan.)

Ohio has gone Republican in 4 of the last 6 elections

Since 1980 only Bill Clinton has been able to win Ohio for the Democrats, in 1992 and 1996. Reagan won it in 1980 and 1984, the first George Bush in 1992, and George W. Bush in 2000. Going into the 2004 election this was a battleground state but also a “leaning Republican” state.

snip

lots more in the article. Stop blaming gays!!

What are we the party that changes color the second we are called losers or something?

Stand by your core values, people. History is watching. Be on the correct side of history, not just the percieved "winning" side.

Hitler and his bullies had some glory days too.

I know these social issues are what hurt us. I know because I live in a sea of right wingers who say they wouldnt vote for us because of the gay and abortion issues. The country is not ready for this yet. Maybe in a decade, not now.

Suit yourselves though. I have no problems with these issues but I do know its why we are losing our asses.

IMO these should be personal issues. They would get MORE support by not being associated with either party.

They're right wingers. it makes sense that they wouldn't vote Dem. OTOH, Moderates and Indepedents went to Kerry (Gore lost independents btw).

Anyway...the point is that it's unfair to blame the election on the gays. (There have been several discussions on this)

I am blaming the god damn bigoted bastards who voted for Bush BECAUSE they hate gays. When people talk about "moral values" they are talking about how they hate gays. It's not "gays fault" that these people are bigots. They are just bigots!

I dont...and it hurt the cause...

second, who said anything about gay issues "helping our side?" not me. I'm saying the evidence shows that it didn't hurt as much as people say.

Specifically because all the other threads were desperate for another excuse for our loss. This is the first one that looks at it with specifics and no emotion.

Right wingers were motivated this year. We were dumb to believe otherwise. Right wingers will always find an available excuse to show up and vote for their candidate, or against ours. Same is true of us.

Ohio is not the greatest example because the state economy/job loss and campaign-long emphasis on Ohio on Kerry's part, as opposed to Gore, obviously contributed to how close it was.

Keep believing that the gay marriage issue didnt cost us Ohio, when it clearly did. Since Ohio cost us the race well what else can I say.

The turnout in South Ohio, in the bible belt areas of the state were off the charts. Those 199,435 more votes for President came from North Ohio, not the South. In all the South Eastern and Western counties in Ohio it was the gay marriage issue that they told pollsters was motiviating them. While working for the campaign I spent some time in Ohio and we went over some of this polling data for our internal polls and it scared us to death! We wanted that gay marriage thing off the ballot and people from the Ohio Dem party tried to convince them to not put it on till the 2006 midterms but they would not listen. They wouldnt listen because the people behind the ballot got their marching orders from "above" namely in the person of Karl Rove

The turnout in southern Ohio was beyond the wildest dreams of Karl Rove and they all turned out for the gay marriage ban.

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Excuse me? Sounds like you need a little education! If we are to be REAL democrats, we do NOT run from ANYTHING that is about freedoms for ALL Americans! I am not a child and I will not sit idly byt to wait for you to bestow my EQUAL rights! DO NOT tell me to sit in the back of the bus!

"Homos will just need to have a little patience and trust us in the long run."

TRUST??? PATIENCE!!! and who is this US? => the republican party

In order to have rights you have to be willing to fight for them.

Do you think civil rights is because of trust and patience or "they need to shut the hell up!"

What the heck? Democrats stand for the rights of all people. We don't pick and choose based on wedge issues dreamed up by the repukes, or any other group for that matter.

:mad:

if we have any hopes in 06 and 08 we better run the hell away from gay marriage as fast as possible. This is a sure-fire loser. The nation is not ready for it. Homos will just need to have a little patience and trust us in the long run. For now though, they need to shut the hell up! And that freaking mayor in SF needs to knock it off as well.

I cannot honestly believe you would put up such a statement. To refer to them as the "homos" is not a little disrespectful, and I was willing to overlook it, but you follow that up by saying to the gay-lesbian community to "shut the hell up." That's incredible, just absolutely disgusting.

In this country, freedom isn't free. They have to fight for the rights that we take for granted, and they're struggling for them, yet here you are saying we should abandon them to the wind because America is not ready for it. This kind of logic sickens me. LBJ's critics said that we shouldn't be giving blacks more rights because they're not ready for them after they started rioting after MLK was assassinated.

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On one hand, you say you are "for gay rights as much as the next person." On the other hand, you say you want the issue to be hidden because it "cost us the damn election."

It seems as if you (and others) have fallen for the rovian rhetoric. We are Democrats, and we are not afraid. Working for the civil rights for all people in this country is our legacy, and we cannot let it fall by the wayside because the repukes want it to go away.

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So what you are proposing is that gay and lesbian CITIZENS hold off on EQUAL rights because it might OFFEND the RED states? Does that sum it up?! The moment we allow THEM to set our platform, we (as a party) are doomed!

Repeat after me: Gay rights DID NOT cost us the election! Bigots did!...and possibly stolen/lost votes!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/national/12gays.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1100376313-IhtB+qetMJvoI0FC+Kd0pw

Caution in Court for Gay Rights Groups

"Fthat aggressive action could backfire and generate public hostility, gay rights groups are planning to limit the scope of their legal challenges to the constitutional amendments banning gay marriage that were passed by 11 states last week.

The groups are making a temporary retreat from their most fundamental goal, winning the right for same-sex marriages, and focusing instead on those measures that addressed civil unions in some way. The groups say that broader suits seeking the right to marry could add fuel to President Bush's efforts to create a federal prohibition on gay marriage. Many of the state amendments passed by overwhelming margins, and Karl Rove, the architect of Mr. Bush's re-election, said this week that there was a broad national consensus that marriage is between a man and a woman.

So challenging the new state amendments by arguing that gays have the right to marry under the federal Constitution is unlikely anytime soon. Instead, gay rights groups will move cautiously, mostly on procedural matters in states whose measures appear to infringe on civil unions and benefits for same-sex couples.

..."There is no putting lipstick on this pig," said Matt Foreman, who is the executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and who will give the keynote address on Friday morning at the group's conference in St. Louis. "Our legal strategy is at least 10 years ahead of our political and legislative strategy."

But, he is not! Too many people are stuck on a damn word! I don't care what you call it, I want my relationship with my partner recognized! I want the rights given heterosexuals who have committed relationships that are recognized by the state and federal government! I want EQUAL rights in terms of my COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP!

Now you're saying that the "bad guys" are calling for a retreat, even though in you last post you described them as those who want to "hold off" on Equal Rights for fear of offending the red states. *THAT* is EXACTLY what Forman is calling for.

But Matt's not a "bad guy", and if he is concerened about a red state "backlash", you'll just change your argument. Here's what you said earlier:

So what you are proposing is that gay and lesbian CITIZENS hold off on EQUAL rights because it might OFFEND the RED states? Does that sum it up?! The moment we allow THEM to set our platform, we (as a party) are doomed

Tha's what Matt Forman is proposing. And you have no problem with it, unless the person saying it isn't gay. Then you have a problem with it.

No! I am not saying the "bad guys" are calling for a retreat. I said Matt Forman would be considered a "bad guy" if HE was calling for retreat!

Instead, gay rights groups will move cautiously, mostly on procedural matters in states whose measures appear to infringe on civil unions and benefits for same-sex couples. This doesn't sound like retreat to me! They will challenge unfair laws that DENY gays EQUAL rights!

I didn't read anywhere that Matt Forman is saying the Democrat Party should abandon gay rights! YOU seem to favor that!

ON EDIT: The groups are making a temporary retreat from their most fundamental goal, winning the right for same-sex marriages,.. but they will CONTINUE to battle for civil rights!

You say you haven't fallen for rovian rhetoric, but your comments belie the fact. It's a wedge issue that too many people have been suckered into thinking is the reason we lost the election.

Edited for clarity.

Kerry shouldn't have bet it all on OH and FL. They are run by repukes and have disasterous and/or fraudulant voting equipment. I knew from all the pre-election ballot/challenger fights that OH would be a disaster.

and again i ask...why didn't Bush win MI or OR if the amemdment motivated RWers?

"and again i ask...why didn't Bush win MI or OR if the amemdment motivated RWers?"
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Actually those states were pretty close...too close for comfort in my opinion. I think Kerry won Oregon by 5 or 6%...Michigan was tight too. I think Gore won those states by a much larger margin. We lost Iowa and New Mexico....Hell california was 55% to 45%!!!

We need to come up with a new plan....and new type of candidate that will lure more of those uneducated/uninformed repug voters in the red states who don't know what the hell is going on.

Much of Kerry's gain came from Nader's collapse between 2000 and 2004. The rest likely from new voters where Kerry won by double digits. While some of what they say is reassuring, it isn't proof.

I blame the coup that took this election again..and the Willfully Ignorant voters who wallow in their own self-delusion.