Bush stole Ohio through absentee ballots

(I just posted this in Presidential Discusion but that is now gone so sorry if you have already read this)

In Ohio the republicans sent out absentee ballots to all republicans, whether they requested one or not. The law in Ohio is that you have to be 65, infirm or out of the county on election day. Once you request an absentee ballot, the BoE puts an "absentee" stamp next to your name, so you can't vote at the precinct. It says on the absentee ballot that if you receive one you can't go to the polls. A friend of mine (a republican) received an absentee and was upset because she wanted to go to the polls and vote. She called our BoE and they told her that she could still vote. It wasn't marked on the books that all of the reps recieved absentee ballots. (I know I was there challenging) I also have a friend who had moved counties and received an absentee ballot that was addressed to go back to her old county. She could have filled it out and still gone to her new county. Someone else posted that they live in another state and received the absentee for Ohio, could have easily voted twice. These people knowingly addressed these absentee ballots to people outside their county. If only 5% of the people double voted, that is Bush's lead. If enough people voted absentee out of laziness and not because of the three requirements, that would explain why the exit polls were off. Reps voted from home, Dems voted in the polls. They counted the absentee ballots Tues night with the rest of the ballots. My precinct had 68 absentee ballots counted- doesn't that seem very high? (760 people voted). I'm not discounting the machine fraud but this is one way I think they did it.

even your basic repuke in Ohio. If the RNC sent out the absentee ballots; odds are 95% of those that filled them out didn't goto the polls, and vise-versa. Sure you may have had 200 maybe even 500 people who did vote twice as it allows them; but certainly not in the thousands, let alone tens of thousands.

Then again I could be wrong...

why not?

they had 4 years to organize this

95% of Republicans wouldn't vote twice. Assuming 1/3 of Ohio registered voters are Republicans and 60% of them voted, that's:

7,500,000 Registered Voters 
x 33% Republican
---------------
2,500,000 Registered Republicans
x 60% Turnout
---------------
1,500,000 Republican Voters
x 5% Voting Twice
---------------
75,000 Extra Votes

If that happenned, it's over half the margin right there. This story needs to be either confirmed or disproven.

If so, not to worry. I'll bet the 2.6 million extra absentee ballots that flooded the Boards of Election prior to the election raised a red flag.

The claim is that ALL Republicans received absentee ballots - which, of course, just isn't true - and that 5% of them voted both absentee and in person.

So, how did the other 95% vote? If they received absentee ballots, they couldn't legally vote at the polls, so they must have voted absentee, right? And it they didn't, how did they manage to vote?

Also, if the accusation, based on nothing, is that 5% of Republicans voted twice, how do you know that at least that number of Democrats also didn't vote twice?

as the reason Ohio "went" to Bush

and this gave them a cushion of a certain percent of people that wouldn't be at the polls on election day so "they" could vote for them again. It allows "them" to count votes on election day and attribute them to real registered voters even though they had already voted by absentee.

"How do we know that at least that number of Democrats also didn't vote twice?"

That's a rhetorical question right? bush*s Ohio campaign chair was the Secretary of State in charge of the vote, that means there are whole segments of Democrats who didn't get the chance to vote in the first place, let alone have it counted and certainly NOT counted twice!!

Only the Board of Elections can send those out and only upon a written application from the voter. Republicans sent out APPLICATIONS to voters, a very different thing.

How do you make the leap that because Bush's Ohio campaign chair was the Secretary of state "whole segments of Democrats didn't get the chance to vote in the first place?" You've got to do better than that.

Votes are counted at the county level. A number of county boards of elections are run by Democrats. Does that mean that Republicans in those areas were disenfranchised? Do you think the fact that, for example, the chairman of the Hamilton County Board of Elections is also the Chairman of the Hamilton County Democratic Party is ipso facto proof that Republicans in Hamilton County didn't get a chance to vote?

You are making rather broad and unsubstantiated claims that only cloud our valid claims. Republicans did not all receive absentee ballots. You don't have any more proof that Republicans used the absentee voting system to vote twice than you do that Democrats did the same thing. If you're going to make these allegations, you need to offer more substantiation than just claiming the other side is corrupt. Prove it - or at least offer SOMETHING relevant - otherwise, please move on.

This would still give the repugs a big advantage-- not illegal, but a big advantage. I'm sure many repugs voted by absentee ballot who would not otherwise have voted. The Ohio Dem party must do the same thing next election.

under the following conditions:

1) The rumor is correct that all Republicans in Ohio received absentee ballots
2) RunningFromCongress's statement that 95% of Republicans are honest and wouldn't vote twice, implying that FIVE percent would vote twice.

Basically, I just wanted to see how many potential votes might be generated under this theory.

I have no idea whether it's true or not, but I hope it's investigated. It's entirely possible that's it's based on anecdotal reports of Republicans actually receiving unrequested absentee ballots. Someone may made the claim that all Republicans received these ballots when it was a smaller group. It would be a clever way to manipulate the system, and in line with other deniable but quasi-illegal practices in the 00 and 04 elections.

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Just because they aren't sitting at their computers bitching into cyberspace about it doesn't mean they're not working on the problem.

Please email the Kerry campaign with this information.

The Republicans did not send out absentee ballots to all Republicans. First, only the Board of Elections can send out absentee ballots to voters and only after they have been requested in writing. Second, all Republicans in the state did NOT receive absentee ballots - just think about it: if they had, not a single Republican would have been able to vote at the polls.

The Republicans did play around with absentee ballot requests - most notably by getting senior citizens in nursing centers to fill out requests which operatives took down to the local Boards of Elections. The Democrats are investigating this. But it isn't even close to true that Republicans sent ballots to every Republican or that every Republican voted from home.

Moreover, plenty of Democrats also voted absentee.

This is a red herring.

Reps did receive ballots that were not requested. PM me if you want to stop by and see one

absentee ballots to Republicans based upon fraudulent requests from a third party. But this isn't even close to saying that the Republicans sent absentee ballots to every Republican or that every Republican received an absentee ballot.

Jeb Bush -- well, the FL Republican Party -- sent out absentee ballots to ALL registered Republicans. It had Jeb's picture prominently on it, a message from him encouraging absentee voting, and even the state seal on it. I don't know if they did that this year or not, but I can still visualize the picture I saw of the mailing in my mind's ey.

I believe that the law in FL for absentee voting is quite similar to Ohio's and most states' -- you need to be out of town on election day or otherwise unable to vote at your regular precinct. I have been talking about this FL incident off and on since then, because IMO if the Republicans did something, there was a reason for it and likely also an avenue or opportunity to commit fraud (nearly undetected), but I myself could never quite figure out their angle.

This OH story validates my concerns and offers a little more view into what they're up to.

And should invalidate the election, or at the very least it's grounds for a hand recount, because there's no other way to catch any double voting.

This is only one of many, many glitches in Ohio.

It would be quite a tactic, wouldn't it? Arrange for a maelstrom of small "glitches" that favor one candidate, so that even if some are caught, enough get through to push him over the top. And it wouldn't be seen as fraud, because they're just these little "glitches."

although it may take awhile. Each absentee ballot is signed, and if you show up at the polls, your name is crossed off the list, right? All someone has to do is compare the two lists. If true, this is almost guaranteed to result in proof of illegal Bush votes.

I made a donation to the Green Party recount effort yesterday. I am going to ask them to include this in their effort. Do you have a link to a media source on this story?

people didn't vote both in person and absentee.

and maybe they did it. But the claim here is that they deviated from procedure and left the door open to double-voting. I don't know if it's true, but I would like to see the story either confirmed or disproven.

People are now just throwing out accusations and insisting that they be disproven. This is not how this works, regardless what side we're on.

If people have proof of wrongdoing, they should produce it. But just throwing around baseless allegations and demanding that Kerry and the Democrats chase them down not only makes it much harder for them to do what they need to do to ensure that every vote is counted, it makes Democrats look like whining conspiracy theorists, i.e., like Republicans.

There are plenty of things we should focus on and deal with in this race (minority voter suppression, etc.), but this kind of random theorizing is not helpful.

It's entirely possible that this story is a rumor which will be disproven. But if there are anecdotal reports, why not check them to see if there's a pattern?

I don't think we should make premature accusations. But I do not want to dismiss it until it's disproven.

namely that some version of the story has to be proven.

To prove it: Numerous reports of unrequested absentee ballots received by registered Republicans would be a start. )Republicans who voted for Kerry might be willing to report this.) Second, part of any recount or investigation can check on whether absentee voters were also recorded as having gone to the polls. I don't think this would normally be done in the recount, and would have to be a separate effort.

Without some substantiation, the story can be investigated as a rumor but not reported as a fact.

It may be partially correct -- for example, maybe only Republicans in one county got absentee ballots. Or maybe absentee ballot applications were sent instead of the actual ballots (that might be perfectly legitimate). But I've heard the rumor a couple of times, and it sounds like a original way to skew the vote very much along the lines of other recent irregularities.

I'm pretty sure there have also been reports that they promoted absentee voting elsewhere prior to this election (New Mexico?). And they may have done it also in FL this year. Why not?

I am NOT comfortable with people just dismissing this "allegation" out of hand, and frankly insulting a DUer's report. I for one appreciate that she is raising this issue. It's fine to question it or want more proof, but the tone of this -- calling it "baseless allegations" and demanding that the poster produce proof (which actually has been offered!) -- strikes me as not productive and unnecessarily inflammatory.

And when you show up to vote, you also sign next to your name in the book. So, if somebody voted absentee and in person, that could be easily verified during recounts.

place yet (will be done today or tomorrow). The Election Night count is unofficial. It's not until they verify the validity of the absentee and provisional ballots that the count becomes official.

is challenging.

N/T

My county, Stark, has all the absentees grouped in county totals. At least at the BOE site. I'd love to see the precinct data. Anywhere to find this other than the BOE. Any help would be appreciated.

counted the ballots to take to the BoE. I compared that number to the number that is being published for that precinct and there is a difference of 68 ballots. I talked to the Kerry lawyer and he said they did count the absentee ballots that they had on Tues night. If people voted in different counties, I don't know how it could be checked. I am not trying to throw out any old theories guys, I have been thinking about this for a week, comparing numbers and looking at unrequested ballots that people got. I just wanted others opinions about if this was possible, I'm not calling the police or anything. I thought that was what this site was for, to get others opinions. I worked very hard for Kerry and have been working very hard for an Ohio recount.

One precinct in stark works out to a vote every 44 seconds. Went heavy bush*. I know a person that worked outside that precinct that said although busy, it never got insane. If the absentee count isn't very high for that precinct, then the final #'s must be bogus. That's why I was asking.

I don't know how to get the info. I talked to all of the challengers in my county to get the absentee vote numbers. Maybe call some of the dem poll workers? Or call the Kerry lawyer for your county - Ohio had one for every county. He should know. I can get you the email of the the head Ohio lawyer- you could ask him for your counties lawyer. He is very interested in hearing about this kind of stuff.

fewer polling places than in 2000. Which led to long lines and let's face it, most people will not wait hours so they can vote, especially since most people have to work.

not the Secretary of State. Are you saying that the local Boards of Elections across the state conspired with each other and with the Republicans to have fewer polling places and, thus help Bush win?

There was no lines in 2000.
Apparently, turnout is not all that much higher. In some counties it's apparently the same as in 2000.
So, you tell me, what gives?
:eyes:

Every county in Ohio had a significant increase, ranging from 103% to 142% in voter turnout. Not one county remained the same or went down.

Also, there were 2,000 more precincts this time around than in 2000.

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/results/index.html

By the way, Fliesincircles is correct - Franklin County's turnout did drop by less than .5 percent.


County 2004 2000
Adams 68.34 60.80%
Allen 70.59 65.10%
Ashland 72.23 69.50%
Ashtabula 72.27 60.80%
Athens 62 53.50%
Auglaize 68.07 70.40%
Belmont 75.25 60.30%
Brown 69.26 62.60%
Butler 68.73 64.30%
Carroll 70.59 65.90%
Champaign 73.16 59.80%
Clark 76.81 65.70%
Clermont 69.95 62.40%
Clinton 72.44 64.00%
Columbiana 62.71 61.00%
Coshocton 76.42 68.80%
Crawford 74.03 62.60%
Cuyahoga 66.15 58.10%
Darke 68.89 65.90%
Defiance 70.29 64.40%
Delaware 79.16 69.80%
Erie 71.49 64.20%
Fairfield 73.92 67.30%
Fayette 72.73 64.50%
Franklin 60.95 61.30%
Fulton 76.69 68.80%
Gallia 59.17 60.90%
Geauga 78.43 68.70%
Greene 74.07 67.70%
Guernsey 61.08 64.80%
Hamilton 72.87 65.60%
Hancock 70.73 66.80%
Hardin 69.48 61.70%
Harrison 71.46 66.80%
Henry 77.16 69.10%
Highland 64.88 63.90%
Hocking 72.14 65.40%
Holmes 63.81 59.30%
Huron 68.34 58.10%
Jackson 59.72 55.90%
Jefferson 73.56 64.10%
Knox 72.11 61.10%
Lake 74.71 67.60%
Lawrence 67.29 57.20%
Licking 70.81 64.30%
Logan 71.87 61.70%
Lorain 70.74 61.60%
Lucas 71.64 62.40%
Madison 74.33 64.40%
Mahoning 67.77 65.10%
Marion 66.39 60.70%
Medina 71.6 66.20%
Meigs 71.11 63.00%
Mercer 65.41 75.20%
Miami 70.06 65.20%
Monroe 75.91 66.10%
Montgomery 71.39 63.90%
Morgan 72.34 65.50%
Morrow 67.64 62.10%
Muskingum 75.3 61.70%
Noble 75.63 73.90%
Ottawa 76.2 70.30%
Paulding 69.46 65.30%
Perry 65.28 72.60%
Pickaway 75.15 61.40%
Pike 64.64 54.30%
Portage 69.64 63.70%
Preble 75.44 66.80%
Putnam 77.11 73.60%
Richland 64.92 65.90%
Ross 72.25 66.90%
Sandusky 82.3 64.90%
Scioto 73.56 61.90%
Seneca 71.49 69.40%
Shelby 79.72 66.50%
Stark 69.51 67.70%
Summit 74.7 65.60%
Trumbull 76.14 67.90%
Tuscarawas 77.03 66.50%
Union 74.55 66.50%
Van Wert 72.28 61.70%
Vinton 71.06 60.30%
Warren 74.11 72.60%
Washington 72.67 66.10%
Wayne 74.49 69.20%
Williams 68.44 60.60%
Wood 67.62 62.40%
Wyandot 68.11 66.50%
TOTAL 69.86 63.60%

The state's 2nd largest county had a drop in voter turnout%. Throughout the summer you could see the turnout would be huge. It was coming like a freight train. The BOEs knew what the results of their inaction would be. They chose to do nothing.

they certainly did it around here in Pa. Fortunately they failed to make enough of a difference with the democratic votes suppression attempts.

Are you saying that the local Boards of Elections across the state conspired with each other and with the Republicans to have fewer polling places and, thus help Bush win?

According to this article, there WAS a deliberate effort to reduce polling places in DEMOCRATIC-voting districts:

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multi-page/documents/04256170.asp

As noted above, the state had been anticipating the purchase of DRE machines, which are both more expensive and — at least in theory — quicker. That meant, according to Blackwell, that counties could make do with fewer machines without affecting the lines, and fewer faster machines meant that counties could merge small precincts together to share them. The Republican-led legislature helped encourage precinct consolidation by raising the maximum allowable number of registered voters per precinct. So, some counties merged their polling places, cutting as many as 48 percent in some cases.

When the state suddenly nixed the new machines, those counties were left with fewer polling places for more voters, with the old slow machines, and about the same number of poll workers. Erie County consolidated 101 precincts in 2000 into just 62 this year. As a result, the average number of voters per precinct in Erie nearly doubled, from 355 to 640.

<...>

HERE’S THE rub: a Phoenix analysis shows that the precinct reductions disproportionately hurt Ohio’s Democratic turnout.

Of Ohio’s 88 counties, 20 suffered a significant reduction — shutting at least 20 percent (or at least 30) of their precincts. Most of those counties have Republicans serving as Board of Elections director, including the four biggest: Cuyahoga, Montgomery, Summit, and Lucas.

Those 20 counties went heavily to Gore in 2000, 53 to 42 percent. The other 68 counties, which underwent little-to-no precinct consolidation, went exactly the opposite way in 2000: 53 to 42 percent to Bush.

**edited because I left out a key paragraph and fixed the link**

Can anyone answer if these sites are connected across the state via wan or other network connection?

If they are who needs a modem, much better bandwidth.

Can anyone answer this..... Pretty please

Start a new post and I bet you will get lots of computer people to answer you

In Ohio the Repub Party sent out APPLICATIONS for absentee ballots. A person who sends in the application and is mailed an absentee ballot cannot then vote at the precinct.

Let's get it straight! There's a big difference between receiving an application and actually mailing it in to receive an absentee ballot.

If you haven't seen the ballots how can you say they don't exist? Maybe I should have said, in my county WARREN COUNTY reps received BALLOTS without requesting them. Like I said earlier, stop by and see one if you want

Didn't Warren County also counted the votes in isolation, kicking observers out because of terror threat that apparently didn't exist?
There appears to be some funny business going on in Warren County!

I've got repub relatives here in Ohio, I saw the mail application, anyone who tells you they were mailed an actual absentee ballot without requesting it is either blind or lying. Sorry, but IT JUST DID NOT HAPPEN!!

because of non -existing terror threat? Because everything was legit and according to the book?:spank:
I suggest you go back to the freeper land, I am sure your freeper friends miss you!

thanks for playing but your uniform is transparent.

so I am obviously lying. Move along, nothing to see here

You claimed that every Republican received an absentee ballot in the mail. That just didn't happen. Apparently, the only proof you have is your claim to have some of these ballots, which does nothing to prove your allegation. If you have some additional proof, please present it. However, making such claims and then complaining that people are questioning their validity does nothing to help the process.

Do you really think that if every Republican in Ohio received an absentee ballot, it would be a big secret that has remained so until you exposed it here on DU today? Or do you think that everyone, including the Democrats who are working their asses off this very minute in Ohio tracking down every election irregularity and trying to get every vote counted are either too stupid, compromised or corrupt to call this out if it had actually occurred?

This is a bogus issue and it's a waste of time continuing to argue about it. We're much better served dealing with what actually happened, not what could have happened or you heard happened in this race.

Or some of your friends?

If it helps, I too am frustrated by those who are not just doubting this but questioning YOUR integrity.

One more time: they sent out absentee BALLOTS in FL in 2000. This exact same thing has been done before, why NOT Ohio in 2004 (esp. with Blackwell as head of the Bush campaign in Ohio, as K. Harris was in FL in 2000?)

Let me say something else. The pattern of abuse through vote suppression, voter intimidation, and likely fraud which has been revealed for weeks now (just this year), and NOT just during and after the election itself so far, certainly ought to encourage most reasonable and HONEST people that the most appropriate and sane approach is to automatically give at least some credence to reports like this, not to automatically dismiss them and quesetion the honesty and integrity of the reporter. Throw in FL 2000, throw in the normal dishonest behavior of the GOP's leaders (not to mention Bush, Cheney, Rove, et. al.), and I don't know why anyone has the least bit of trouble believing this is at least possible.

does not mean that 2 million + Republicans received ballots.

Moreover, you are demanding that a negative be proven - that unless we have seen the ballots, we cannot say they don't exist, which makes no logical sense. You are alleging that these ballots exist, therefore it is incumbent upon you, or others making the accusation, to prove that they exist, not that anyone else prove that they don't. And one or two or a handful of ballots does NOT prove that 2 million ballots were received by Republicans.

Please - I'm on your side and am working my tail off to make sure all votes are counted in Ohio and that any election fraud or wrongdoing by Republicans is tracked down and exposed. But the kind of baseless allegation you're making is absolutely no help toward that goal - it only muddies up the issue.

:silly: :eyes: :silly: :eyes:

We really need a recount. David cobb wants to do it.
The Cobb and Badnarik campaigns are in the process of raising the required fee, estimated at $110,000, for filing for a complete recount. The campaigns are accepting contributions through their websites. The Cobb-LaMarche website is http://www.votecobb.org The Badnarik-Campagna contribution page is https://badnarik.org.
There's also a meeting in Columbus tommorrow.

...in any way, just addressing it as if you're right.

Forgive me, I'm thinking out loud here, not going to be coherent:

Would any of this explain the discrepancy in the exit polls (in both OH AND FL)? I'm trying to think how it would or could, depending on the scenario...

And yes, there was a story back in the summer of the RNC in FL suggesting to Republicans that they all vote absentee to avoid the e-voting machines. Anybody remember that? It sparked a controversy at the time. How ironic now.

showed Kerry ahead, they weren't able to question the absentee voters. My repub friend who received her BALLOT her husband was called away on business on Monday so he went ahead and filled out the BALLOT and took it to the BoE. Probably wouldn't have voted if he hadn't already had a ballot in his hand. I am not saying he shouldn't have voted or that the majority of people broke the law or are dishonest, I just think this is one of many areas that they stole this election or opened a door for fraud to occur.

Plus all these absentee ballots

plus nearly 200,000 provisional ballots?

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