DON'T LET THE TROLLS DIVERT BY TALKING 2008. WE WILL WIN IN 2004.

They are doing their damndest to change the subject.

Don't let them. Don't be sidetracked. Focus on the FRAUD. Not on who the Dems should nominate in 2008.

They are so transparent and obvious.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

...the election is over, we lost.

that is the only moving on i will do.

We need a revote. At the very least, in every BBV precinct.

None. Nada. Anyone who thinks that there will be a "revote" is either completely uninformed about American politics or delusional (maybe both).

...I wonder if the people who are thinking of a re-vote are delusional about other things too?

With hundreds of permutations in as many jurisdictions, and with the GAO and congress sure to be involved, as well as local prosecutors and the Justice Department, the situation hardly lends itself to a quick dismissal of any possibility.

For the people for whom the situation is too confusing, disturbing or upsetting, I would suggest that they go work on 2008 and leave the people who are pursuing this alone.

it's even simpler; it is not going to happen, no matter how many two dollar words we throw out there...and believe me, I wish things were different, but they aren't...we were left without a leg to stand on by the projected outcomes of the election (by the way, if all the ballots aren't counted untill well after the day votes are cast, why is the winner announced so early?)...

People say that "it" is not going to happen. What, exactly, isn't going to happen? "I wish things were different but they aren't?" What things? Different how?

love it if we talked about 2008 and gave up on this election.

One is required to suspend all common sense and deny all of their perceptions and be deaf to the pleas of their comrades to think that Kerry lost. So they lose more than having their candidate win, they lose their faculties and their reason in the bargain. If Kerry did not win this election, then no election can ever be won and nothing makes any sense. That is why the "get over it" arguments seem so irrational, since it is reality we are being asked to get over.

Still, it isn't merely about Kerry winning. It is about sanity winning. If an election can be stolen with impunity, than anything can be - and will be! - stolen, including our freedom and our lives. There is no way to avoid that conclusion and maintain one's sanity that I can see.

On edit - As always with bullies, until and unless you stand up to them, they go farther and farther and farther.

I'm a little short this week...

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election. There are many precedents.

Very sorry to disappoint you.

No matter what the result, that must be stopped.

can not be allowed to stand, or we will never win again.

Welcome aboard.

Forget it. WE won.

voting machine issue must remain in the forefront until it is resolved and electronic voting machines are legally banned from usage nationwide.

However, if we can somehow bring about re-vote, then this would be fantastic. There is little to lose and a lot to gain. That seems like a good bet to me.

Let's put this in perspective:

There is only one reason, and one reason alone, that the republicans FORCED Americans to vote with electronic voting devices that can be hacked by a chimpanzee, can have voters choices altered by the thousands at the push of a button, and which produce results that cannot be recounted.

This reason is to commit voter fraud. There is no other reason.

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Are you telling us to give up? Because if you are, you're revealing quite a bit about yourself - none of it good.

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hi,
would you be able to tell us in a nutshell the reason some are talking about the paper vs. electronic precincts, and their exit polls discrepancy with their final official count?

Do the electronic places have oddities not seen in the paper places?

Also, any thoughts on how some use final exit polls as a way to attack the four pm exit polls?

Please guide this seminewbie and those many like me, through this leading edge of logic-ing this out. And again, your series of posts these months have been wonderful.

Thanking you in advance,
oscar

1.) the reason some are talking about the paper vs. electronic precincts, and their exit polls discrepancy with their final official count?
Paper votes leave a trail or proof, or insurance of the vote cast; so it's not as easy to alter the data in the case of fraudulent votes. In some states, the exit polls were as they would be expected in predicting the final vote; that is within 0.1% moe (margin of error) States with predominately paper traiols had a greater match betweent the exit polls and the final vote. (It's not easy to cheat) In states were there was an electronic vote, with no trace, there was a large discrepancy in some cases between the exit polls and the final vote, and these all seemed to favor B* (ranging from 5-24%) This is way above the expected exit poll differrence of 0.1%)

2.) Do the electronic places have oddities not seen in the paper places?
As above; also there have been counties in Florida, and I think elsewhere in which the use of optical scanning machines favor B*, the so-called 'red shift'; theories that dispute this point to Dixiecrtats; i.e. registered Dems that vote Repub., etc.

So far, all of the election glitches seem to favor B*

Please anyone feel free to disagree if I'm wrong here.

If you are looking for a little more substance behind the claims there is an interesting analysis that compares absentee ballots to electronic votes in many national and statewide races and finds an anomaly in the presidential election.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&omm=0&om=304&forum=DCForumID12

regularjoe

While I think there is a good chance of exposing fraud in the coming days, weeks, and even months, I do not think it is going to change who is sworn in as president on January 20, 2005. If that makes me a troll, so be it.

future.

Frist has called for ending fillibusters, "one way or another".

Gillespie, RNC head, just called for an end to all exit polling.

That is what lies ahead for those who passively accept this election.

I just think that there is no chance of Kerry being issued the oath of office on January 20, 2005.

Kerry winning or not winning is your only concern. Others believe that there is much more at stake than that. Are you saying that there isn't?

There is a big difference between worrying about who won an election and worrying about whether there will BE any more elections.

I already said I want the fraud research to continue, I just do not expect it to change the outcome of this election.

So you are saying that Bush will win the electoral college vote and there is no chance of any other result, so you therefore object to the op saying "win in 2004."

The "outcome" of this election is a broader subject then merely who will ultimately get the most electoral votes - which by the way is how presidents are chosen, and which has not yet happened.

I see three broad possible outcomes of this election.

1. The people will "get over it" and that will be followed by the death of our representative government, and will certainly lead to civil unrest, persecution, detention and suppression of dissidents, and the eventual collapse of civil society. If they are very successful, we could be living in a totalitarian state that is relatively tranquil for a generation.

2. The election fraud issue is pressed now and won, the public becomes aware of the threat, and a peaceful solution is arrived at before it is too late.

3. Civil unrest will break out before the rulers are able to establish totalitarian rule, and that will lead to one of the first two possibities.

One thing I can promise you...

This Will Not Just Go Away

accepting the situation, like the proles do in 1984?

Or to be real world about it, how about the fact that the majority of the sheeple appeared to "get over it" in 2000? Yes, there were protests, demonstrations, letters to the ed, and the DU, but people didn't really "take to the streets," if you know what I mean.

Do you think that the fat, happy, materially-satisfied capitalists of the US middle and working classes really have it in them to fight a civil war?

and far too many living in poverty.

When a wealthy country allows its citizens to remain in poverty and near-poverty, a revolution becomes likely, if not inevitable.

That is why I don't think that stability is a realistic near-term possibility. It is just a question of how much suffering and strife there will be before things do stabilize. I also think that the longer things go on without people standing up to the tyrants, the worse it will be when they finally do.

So many middle class suburban Dems are violently resisting any conversations that imply anything radical, no matter how bad things get and no matter how overwhelming the evidence is that we are up against something dangerous, extreme and unusual. They immediately wanted to start talking about the 2006 elections, which is another way of saying that everything is normal and everything will be fine. It is more a wish than it is a rational assessment of reality.

I am wondering if a lot of them won't make peace with the rulers in some fashion in the near futures and be on the other side of the political fence (or the barbed wire) from us soon. Already the calls for "moving on" and "getting over it" border on appeasement and compliance with the tyrants. So long as they have their hope - "we can win the next election!" - they will hesitate to take any radical steps. This is fear, not practicality, as they claim it to be.

Half of the people here will soon be thrown to the wolves, and the other half will be assisting in, or apologizing for, or overlooking the throwing, I am afraid.

The desperate desire to cling to security is reflected in the "get to work for the future" mantra, and that yearning for security makes people very weak and vulnerable to being co-opted. The way that the more radical members here have been viciously turned on recently gives us a little taste of what is to come.

Let's ask old Sam for his view ...

"Oppression stalk'd at large and pour'd abroad
Her unrelenting Train; Informers - Spies -
Hateful Projectors of aggrieving Schemes
To sell the starving many to the few,
And drain a thousand Ways th' exhausted Land...
And on the venal Bench
Instead of Justice, Party held the Scale,
And Violence the Sword."

"We are obliged at this time to struggle, with all the Powers with which the Constitution hath furnished us, in Defence of our Rights; to prevent the most valuable of our Liberties from being wrested from us, by the subtle Machinations, and daring Encroachments of wicked Ministers."

- Sam Adams 1771

Hard to say. You might be right. Seems to me that stability is not likely, though. I am thinking that the theocratic plan combined with corporate domination it is too sloppy and too inefficient and destructive to be very stable. People definitely opted for complacency in the hopes of avoiding discomfort in 2000, but I always thought that it was based on an illusion - just a postponement of the ultimate and inevitable civil unrest and repression.

state by state voting irregularities; new ones being reported hourly it seems...FL, OH, NC, IN, NM, etc. We need to get them sorted, determine who got the advantage, by how many votes, by what %age, and then analyze the statistical odds of all of these 'glitches' favoring the B* monstser or Rep senators.

It is mind boggling isn't it? I wonder why any Democrat would oppose the effort to investigate the election?

If they want to move on, then why don't they just move on? I haven't gone on any of the "Hillary in '08!" threads and told them to talk about something else.

Can you inmagine history's verdict on those who are so vehemently trying to thwart investigations into what could be a coup d'etat and the death of democracy in the US? COULD be, I said.

I think that deep inside 99% of Democrats KNOW what is going on, they just aren't emotionally prepared to face the consequences of that knowledge.

is that right?

are BBV innards a trade secret?

yet some say their source code is laughable... how so, if secret?

Is the secretness only about the recorded vote itself, in that no paper record exists? No way to double check a vote?

Ps... the sheep posts i read, ... well the sheep should wake up.
PS.. THANKS TIA... i did not realize the 'O8 threads were diversionary trolls.

.

It wasn't too long after the 2001 inauguration that people started talking about 2004. Seems only natural.

My bad for not following TIA's advice in the op.

Unless it is meant to divert us from thinking about BBV and fraud and such like.

Talking about 2008 is a way to avoid facing what is happening.

The truth is that most people are willing to agree that the election was stolen....

provided that they aren't asked to do anything about it.

History will show that we knew. We knew exactly when and how democracy was killed, but we didn't want to fight for it.

All of these "show me the proof" arguments and "who should we run in 2008" fantasies are smoke screens. They are merely excuses for inaction because people are too intimidated, too fearful and too weak to even consider standing up to the tyrants.

If people don't want freedom badly enough, they will lose it. If they don't care, they don't care. No cure for that and no sense in arguing with them anymore.

Why would someone steal an election unless they were interested in stealing the government? Why would they steal the government unless they were planning to use it, and planning to use it in some very dangerous and unpleasant ways?

Even if there was no voter fraud, we have to know that. I'll never feel comfortable voting again until we get to the bottom of this.

Join us!

Do something. :)

google your state election official and The Election Center and see what you find. Most of our election officials are pawns for the DRE manufacturers. Sad but true....

Bev Harris found the source code unprotected on DIEBOLD's website. If they were sloppy about that, what else were they sloppy about? It's been shown that a chimpanzee can hack into the machine and change the outcome of an election.

It's time to move beyond the denial phase and toward acceptance. Screaming about recounts and "unconcessions" only makes us look like a bunch of nutcases.

We need to sober up and face facts so that we can prevent yet another loss in 2008.

by all means, go on without us.

after we take care of business we will catch up with you, ok?

see ya. wouldn't wantta be ya.

}(

It's over.

I see people say "get over it" and "it is over" but they don't define what they mean by "it."

I would say that politics as ususal is what is over, and that people are deluding themselves about that when they talk about platform issues, campaign strategies and candidates for future elections. To believe that our focus should be on 2008 is to deny that anything out of the ordinary has happened over the last 5 years. That to me is the ultimate self-delusion.

.

The sad fact of the matter is that election fraud is and always has been a part of American politics, and both parties are guilty. The Republicans blatantly stole the presidency from Samuel Tilden in 1876 and held onto power for decades thanks to their crooked machines in key states that always managed to deliver just enough votes for their guy. Then there was 1960 when the man whose picture you display in each of your posts, John Kennedy, was almost certainly assisted by fraud in the crucial swing state of Illinois; his successor Lyndon Johnson also benefited from fraud when he "won" his Senate seat in Texas, fraud that Democrats committed to avenge widespread Republican fraud in an earlier race. And, as we all know, Republicans committed a great deal of fraud in Florida four years ago.

I don't know that there's much we can do to clean up the system at this point (especially now that we have a conservative GOP Congress that won't exactly be interested in investigating such matters), but I suppose we could volunteer at our local elections office and do our part to ensure that every vote is counted and that unethical election workers are exposed and prosecuted if necessary.

If you sit by and passively accept a wrong, you are as much a part the problem as those who perpetrate a wrong. In fact, those who would sit by idly while great wrongs are committed are more responsible, for they are giving tacit approval for such misdeeds with their silence.

DON'T HELP THEM TAKE AWAY OUR DEMOCRACY...STAND AND FIGHT

There is an enormous difference between those instances of elections fraud that you cite and the crisis we face now.

It is not so much that an election is being stolen, rather that a government is being stolen. Even saying that understates the crisis. The government is being stolen by people who want to use the government, and if their words and actions to date are to be given any notice at all, they are stealing the government for the purpose of setting up a theocratic totalitarian state.

This is not a matter of "cleaning up the system" it is a matter of fighting for the survival of the system.

on edit - You may not see the situation as being as dire as many of us do yet. Please, however, at least respect the way we see it and stop dismissing it as trivial or delusional. If the real reason you are resistant to this effort to call for an investigation of the election is that you do not think that we are at risk of a totalitarian take over, then we should be discussing that. But don't misreperesnt other people's thoughts for the purpoise of dismissing and discrediting them.

Here we are in the midst of one of the greatest political crises of all time - with the validity of a national election in question - and there are people who want to move along. Not only do they want to move along, they are angry that anyone who resists joining them.

Move along? Move along to what? Something more important than the franchise? Something more interesting than this crisis? What could be more imortant, or if you are not engaged or persuaded by that, what could be more interesting? Speculation about which personality should be on the ticket in 2008? Endless wrangling over platform analysis and campaign strategies? Talk about boring!

I imagine a scenario of people saying they are football fans, yet you can't drag them away from their programs and stats long enough to watch the live game in progress, and they tell you to stop paying attention to the game and to come on back to "reality" - arguing about stats and playbooks for the next game.

So here we are on one of the great cusps of history, with the great experiment of self-government and the United States of America up for grabs. Everything is at stake and the whole world is watching. The future of our great-grandchildren is at stake.

No one in their right mind could be disinterested in or apathetic about this. No one half awake could find it boring. Anyone with any interest in politics at all would appreciate the opportunity to have a ring side seat to one of the greatest moments in political history ever.

Why would anyone want to move along and put this behind us and leave it unresolved?

It is not the Democratic party that is at risk and that we should be concerned about.

It is democracy that is at risk.

Do not move on until all of the irregularities and suspicious results from this election have been looked into.

If this election has been stolen and they get away with it, all ideas about the future are rendered absurd and futile.

That was great.

Any talk of 08 is delusional until 04 is settled.

How many new Dem's won't bother voting next time thinking the fix is in?

What are the chances of victory then?

If they stole this election, don't you think DIEBOLD machines will be ubiquitous by the next election? They don't intend to give up power. That's what's at stake here!

It has served its purpose. Now we move to the "who is going to get over this" phase, and those who are not will be entering the "questioning and detention" phase. Our fellow Dems will be working within the system, fine tuning the platform and improving the campaign tactics and strategies, and shooting for the 2006 election. Once they can get a majority in Congress again, they will start working on introducing legislation to have us released from detention - if we are still alive.

We're not budging until we get some answers.

Excuse me if I spend a few more trying to figure out what happened on Nov. 2nd and why there was such a huge discrepancy between exit polls and votes counted.

I can focus on 2008 once I know what happened 10 days ago in 2004.

If you can't wait that long, please move on without us.

the epitome of 3 card monty dupes.

'doh, i almost got it....let me try again!'

You'll get your chance--in 2008.


dp

:evilgrin:

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n/t

That any Du'er who is not gnashing their teeth and beating their chest, still wailing while waiting for the Almighty Kerry to pull the electoral college certification out of his ASS, are considered TROLLS ??

Give me a break. We're pragmatists. We're logical. We're not pinning our hopes on Bush waking up some morning and saying 'Oh yeah, that's right, I lost ... Laura, start packing, ok ?'

IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. WE GOT F*CKED.

But that doesn't mean that everyone who disagrees with YOU is a TROLL.


Christ. :eyes:


:hippie:

We never should have moved on in 2000. It emboldened them to pad their hold on the senate and house.

Anyone who can't see that we will never have a chance for free and verified elections in the future is deluding themselves and playing into republican (and DNC, unfortunately) strategy.

We are not trolls. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that we are.

"Get over it"
When did I hear that one before?

tell people what they should be doing. Though I don't have it in me to try to prove to the world that their was fraud involved in this election, I admire those who do.

I also don't believe that we ALL need to be concentrated on the same thing at the same time. That's a waste of our vast resources. Some people want to deal with this election. I say, good for them. Some people want to deal with the midterms. I say, good for them. Some people want to deal with the 2008 primaries. Good for them too. Just because some people want to concentrate their efforts on other than this election, you shouldn't call them trolls. And besides. It's against the rules. Eh hem..... An apology would be nice. :D.. Thank you in advance. ;)

TIA didn't say that everyone who is talking about 2008 is a troll. He is noticing that a lot of new members are clamoring for us to move on. He is also speculating that "moving on" would be in the interests of the RNC.

:eyes: It's pretty plain to see :eyes:


:hippie:

"DON'T LET THE TROLLS DIVERT BY TALKING 2008."

To say that trolls are diverting us by talking 2008 does not mean that all those who are talking about 2008 are trolls.

Unless you assisted him when he put this post together, you have no clue as to what he really meant.

But they sure sound like Trolls.

Its much too premature.

Besides, they assume Kerry won't run for reelection. Why would Hilary challenge him?

It doesn't mean we're going to do it. We will continue to talk about fraud and such. If they don't like it, tough shit.

Truth isn't all that.

.

In the meantime the voter irregularities have multiplied.

Felon lists didn't go away, if they were proven fraudulent they gave them to GOP poll challengers instead of poll workers. That's suppression.

IN NM, 10,000 of 13,000 provisional ballots were deemed uncountable. In heavily democratic precincts in Florida, thousands of provisional ballots have been thrown away and nobody has bothered to count how many. That's deliberate, targeted spoilage.

In the wee hours of the morning Nov. 3rd, when apparently they thought nobody would notice, CNN changed their exit poll data to match the official vote tallies. That's fraud.

Heavily democratic and minority precincts in swing states have received false written information as to polling times, places, and criteria to vote. Suppression/intimidation.

The difference between the exit poll data and official tallies in Ohio, Florida and PA (the three states that were considered the most crucial for both candidates) have been declared so statistically untenable that the odds of the outcome being what is reported is 250 million to one. The final results in all three states were advantageous to Bush.

In auditable voting machines in FL have been demonstrated to count backwards or give Dem votes to other parties.

Major newspapers like WaPo and NYT have claimed that these allegations have been debunked. No evidence as to how they were debunked have been provided, we're just supposed to take them at their word and let it go.

You don't need tinfoil to realize we've been had.

You say most of what needs to be said, clearly and unambiguously.

Everyone should be reminded of the facts you state so well.

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Talk of future elections is fruitless. If this one is stolen, after 2000 and 2004, why would anyone think 2008 would be different or better? All signs point to the situation being much worse.

For instance, the media is marketing the idea that we need uniform standards for voting, and that seems all well and good on the surface. However, there is a reason our founders gave the states as much political power as they did. If too much power is centralized in the federal government, and in particular in situations like we face now, where one party dominates all branches of government, it is much harder for the people to retain custody and auditing power over their votes. If we can work closer to home, with politicians in our state, monitoring our elections is more accessible.

We can say, yes, but what happens when our state government is corrupt. Well we used to be able to sue our way up the food chain. The current regime seems to be working toward consolidating more power over voting with the Department of Justice. Think Gonzales.

With the Help America Vote act, the Elections Assistance Commission was formed (EAC). The commissioners are political appointees, the commissioner appointed by *. The commission has been underfunded from the start. They seek to write uniform standards -- to be used as guidelines for a "voluntary voting system." http://www.eac.gov/ They also have had a pro-electronic voting bias. They admit to having no knowledge of technology, but instead of listening to IT security professionals, they populate their hearings with such people as Michael Shamos, who discredits concerns about the security of electronic and is, by the way, used as an "expert" witness for the music copyrights violations cases; and Meg Smothers, of the League of Women's Voters in Georgia, who is pro-paperless voting, but doesn't know anything about technology. They have had Avi Ruben testify, but the timing of testimony that brings out potential flaws in this system is manipulated to the disadvantage of concerned activists.

In fact, Cathy Cox, the SOS in Georgia, used the premise that there were to be federal standards from the EAC in the future to help defeat our bill, SB500, last spring when we tried to get voter verified paper audit trail for our Diebold touchscreen voting system. I learned from that experience, first hand, how much power we lost as citizens by having a political body of the US govt holding this kind of authority over the State's voting system, even if it's the power to delay decisions demanded by citizens to protect their votes at the state level.

The media is also aggressively marketing the "success" of electronic voting.

If we don't stand and fight now, I firmly believe that we will lose the right to have our votes counted fairly, accurately, and securely, and that the Republican Party and the * administration will maintain and solidify their control over the vote count. We may work our hearts out, turnout in great numbers, and cast our ballot, but it will be as much a sham as voting in some Banana Republic. Just like this election.

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Just because someones posted 1000+ doesn't mean they have contributed 1000+ good ideas.

I'll take quality over quantity any day.

Besides, the 1000+ posters had there chance and lost. Maybe its time for some new ideas and fresh blood.

Meet the new boss.

I assume a number of people have been reading DU threads for a long time and decided to register after the election. I have read all of TIA's great work over the last few weeks and I was shocked that it seems that things went in a way that was so different from what was predicted by many (I mean, Zogby gave it to Kerry; even Tucker bowtie-boy did!). I don't know what went wrong, but we'll see what the few recounts that WILL take place will show.

.

against people wanting to know for sure than an election was conducted fairly and that our votes counted for the candidates we chose?

Answer that? What's the problem? Why should we take anyone's word for it? We shouldn't, and that's built into the laws of the land.

In this country, elections are to be conducted in a transparent manner. They must also conform to laws, as set down at the federal and state level. We have heard of numerous violations of such laws in the General Election in 2004, such as people being denied provisional ballots. Go to the EAC website and read what HAVA mandates with regard to provisional ballots. We should be able to do the math on elections ourselves and see that it was done correctly.

There is a dangerous dependency in the US on taking what "authorities" say on faith. It is our country, our votes, and we are the ones who have to make sure that our elections are fair, not sit by and take on faith that "others" are doing it correctly. Elected officials are our servants not our masters.

We are working to make this election transparent. We must know with a certainty that our votes and voting processes conformed to all laws. It is a felony to interfere with elections. In GA we were told that it is "terrorism." If Homeland Security and the Department of Justice, State Attorney Generals, Secretaries of State, and Election Officials will not do the job, if the media will not investigate, then it is up to us.

There are those among us who will no longer back down when the media and citizens of this country work to undermine our efforts to audit this election when it is not only our right but our duty as citizens to do so.

I think that's definitely worth pursuing.

It would be suicide to just silently roll over and allow the regime to do whatever they want, without pressure or boundries, and hope in vain that they'll be good and play nice in 2008. Regardless of whether we win or lose each battle, we have to keep on their asses for as long as it takes and not stop, and certainly not give in. We have to make a statement.

They may presently have the government and the country under their control, but we don't have to make it easy and painless for them. It's not about proving Kerry won, it's about demonstrating that if they're going to cheat we will be watching and reacting. It's important to prove that we will fight every step of the way if we have to, to keep them in check the best we possibly can.

I keep thinking back to Sinclair, and how our power in numbers gave those it affected a rude awakening. That's what we need to do all the time to those who believe we are weak and won't fight. We have to prove them wrong and show that we are not afraid or too passive to challenge them.

They assume that we will lie down and take it, do we want to prove them right? Can we live with ourselves if we do?

being the expert no.person you are,can you verify a report I seen earlier on this site that the real final exit polling in Ohio at 1am was 52-48 for Kerry?

tia

The reporters who lie to us as our democracy is being stolen should be held accountable too. Is it freedom of the press to lie to the public with impunity?:mad:

I'm totally with you. Down with irrelevant trolls! :)

Gyre

woops....let's not tell him he's a troll, eh?

I want this election, thank you. We won it fair and square. We just have to take it out of their fat, grubby and greedy little hands.

like the many media whores who say there is nothing wrong with the BBV system, the felon purges, etc. It's those exit polls that were wrong! WHY were the exit polls accurate for years and years -- annoyingly accurate, often -- until George W. Bush** started running for president? Suddenly, exit polls stopped working once he left Texas and set his sights on the White House. I'm sure there's a good reason. . .

:eyes:

to focus on both.

I appreciate the work you're doing regarding voter irregularities and potential fraud. I'm not completely convinced of it yet, but I do believe there were problems. That much is clear. I also believe there may have been fraud, but I'm not convinced it was on such a wide scale as you believe.

It's been tough enough having dealt with this loss. I have only now begun to accept the results as reality. I just can't live on false hope that this election's results will be overturned.

Don't have any evidence whether we won or not, do you? That's the problem.

Are you trying to smokescreen our efforts to rebuild the Democratic Party, by continuosly hyping investigating possible election fraud? If that is your plan, to make the left look like a bunch of nutcases so that the right will be too busy laughing and congratulating themselves to see how we are regrouping, then all power to ya.:thumbsup:

This is truly stunning. It is as though you took something like this...

"Is this a diversionary tactic? Are you trying to smokescreen our efforts to investigate a stolen election by continuously hyping rebuilding the Democratic Party? If that is your plan, to make the left look like a bunch of nutcases so that the right will be too busy laughing and congratulating themselves to see how we are fighting them for once, then all power to ya.:thumbsup: "

... and flipped it exactly backwards.

I see this happening so often. If this isn't an intentional attempt at disinformation, I would be very interested to hear how you arrived at your statement.

The urgency - and the priority - would of course be to stop election theft, and by what stretch of the imagination could that possibly be diversionary or hurting anything?

The use of the words "hyping" and "continuously" and "nutcases" is inflammatory and prejudicial.

on edit - is anyone else noticing this? People are turning reality backwards. Very strange and disturbing. It is alarming if it is being done intentionally, and even more alarming if it reflects what they are actually thinking.

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.

And now that the Peterson case is over, what else will the media have to talk about? strange how that got stretched out to just after the election.

Not that he'll ever see it but here's a place you can go to send a message to Monkey Boy. It's at Grassfire.org

"Congratulate George W. Bush on Winning Four More Years!

Congratulatory Tribute
George W. Bush’s stunning victory over Senator John Kerry during Tuesday’s Presidential Election is especially noteworthy because not only did he capture more than the 270 electoral votes needed to win, but he easily outpaced Kerry in the popular vote as well.

Now Grassfire is giving citizens a unique opportunity to send their personal congratulations, well wishes, and prayers to the President on winning another four years in office!

Over the next three weeks, Grassfire will collect and send at least 100,000 congratulatory messages directly to White House.

The Message States: As a citizen of the United States, I want to congratulate you, your Administration and your staff for a job well-done! It is indeed a comfort to know that America will enjoy four more years of strong and secure leadership at home and abroad. Please know that you have my confidence and support over these next four years."

You can then add your personal message. What would you tell him?

3 more months, then the rest of your life in Jail?

This election is over. Good money is being flushed down the toilet. Certainly there is higher return on investment elsewhere.

If you got cash to blow, make a contribution to the Salvation Army or some food bank. Give some hungry soul a nice Thanksgiving dinner.

Liberals give their money to hungry folk all the time. We give our money to issue specific organizations because we like to help people.

Conservatives have been investing their money in long-term strategy: in think tanks, media, and conservative law schools, etc. They are affecting the world on a much larger scale because of that investment...an all the while, because of their success, they are destroying social services so that we liberals end up giving even more money to fix their mess and help those left behind.

I am ready to give my money for long term liberal goals. I can help more people, in the long term, by donating to blackboxvoting than I can by giving money to the Salvation Army.

Besides, the Salvation Army wastes their time arguing about their right to discriminate against gays and lesbians. So I'd give my clothing and furniture donations to Goodwill instead of them in the first place.

.

I'll take quality over quantity.

Your 1000+ ideas lost the election right?

Why should anyone listen to a loser?

Time for new ideas and new leadership.

We need people who can WIN elections. Kindly step aside.

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There won't be a 2008 election--except in the former Soviet style--unless fraud is dealt with now.

Screw 08. Lets win 04!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's over. It's done. It's time to move on.

that the votes have been counted fairly by the Bush cartel. What are you, 13? Politics ain't bean-bag, as they say.

that some of you want to pull those covers back over your head--kinda like those rainy mornings when your alarm goes off and you just don't want to get up to go to work -- so you hit the snooze button and snuggle back under your blanket to shut out the world.

The alarm has gone off but dang it isn't a vile dictatorship that has come to invade our country and destroy our democracy. At least that would wake you up and everyone would be more than ready to protect our country, our democracy.

Instead the enemy is from within. Overt acts of voter suppression that aren't prosecuted, probable vote tampering in the machines ... combined to actually steal an election and our democracy.

Yet knowing that many are looking ahead now to '06 and '08. We lost you say, move on you say, it's over you say ..... HELLOOOOO OUT THERE!!!!!!! This isn't even a Democratic, Republican, third party, centrist, right wing, left wing, chicken wing issue --- this is an AMERICAN issue!!

Our elections have to be transparent, without voter suppression, free of fraud, where EVERY vote is counted and there to be recounted or they're pointless, nothing but a sham. Without elections that can be trusted WE HAVE NO DEMOCRACY!!

The audit that Bev Harris is organizing has to be supported by every American. I would say that anyone not behind this 100% is UN-American. To anyone against it, I would have to ask, what are you afraid of, what do you have to hide? To those apathetic, I would say enlist and fight for democracy elsewhere so that you can remember the courageous men and women in our history who laid down their lives to preserve the right of every American to vote and to have their vote counted.

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The need to investigate election tampering is independent of the fate of any particular candidacy and is in the vital interests of the people. Our representative form of self-government cannot survive if the people do not have confidence in the integrity of elections. That confidence is now severly shaken. This is not a partisan issue, and associating it directly with a candidate, or someone's desire to see that candidate win, trivializes the issue and debases the conversation about it.

I object to the use of phrases like "put down the pipe" and "put away the drugs" when referring to people with whom you disagree. It adds aboslutely nothing of value to the conversation - not really even any hunmor since it is so stale - and further erodes the quality of the discussion.

If you would care to discuss the Nebraska - Oklahoma game, then anything goes. We can pick favorites, insult the supporters of the opposition, and just generally act like overgrown adolescents without putting people's lives at risk or abusing our patriotic duty to support and defend the legacy of freedom we inherited from the founders of our country.

How about you express how you feel about the current crisis and contribute your thoughts now?

NT

And all those who are NOT trolls, I love them all. Just disagree with the timing. Let's fight for an election we just won, but which has been stolen from us.

Our liberal brotherhood will NOT be torn asunder.

OK, Silverhair?

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Coming to this thread and posting "get over it" is not calculated to ingratiate yourselves with those of us who are hanging in there.

Maybe you're not trolls but you sure sound like trolls.

Let me put it to in the simplest terms possible:

Until we know what went down, We Are Not Giving Up.

Period!!

So you're wasting your key strokes by coming here and saying "move on."

Comprende???

I very much agree. We can't "go gently into that good night" on the rigged election.

We need a very agressive response that includes marches NOW against the rigged election to break through the comatose condition of our country and party.

Here is a link to a call to march against the rigged election

and the vast right wing conspiracy.

Including the following:

The vast right wing conspiracy that rigged the election and everything else including the news media is not a myth, exaggeration or figure of speech. Check this out:

http://wholeworldiswatching.blogspot.com/

A very serious game plan for taking back the country on all fronts, tactical, strategic, and mass movement wise. A must read blog — it has everything an aggressive, fighting Democratic activist needs, comprehensive response to the fascists and their rigged election and very gutsy including:

•A call for massive marches against the rigged election.
•A detailed explanation of the “vast right wing conspiracy,” its structure and funding. What it really is, how it got started, who really controls it and how it coordinates EVERYTHING.
•Actual secret government document is plan to control the whole country. Actual documentary proof of the “vast right wing conspiracy.”
•How the Moonies, Rupert Murdoch, the oil industry, banks and other corporations, news media and other right wing Bush shills rigging the election are all actually tied together into a single secret organization -- the vast right wing conspiracy. It’s not just a vague propensity toward greed. It’s not just a right wing “mindset.” It’s an organization. And if they have denied us the ballot box we need to march in the streets, a First Amendment freedom we still have---

A call for MASSIVE MARCHES IN THE STREETS against the rigged election and the VRWC.

Please read the link, post on sites and forums and forward this to others on your email lists.

But I think the best we can hope for is proving that the machines, etc. aren't reliable and wait for the next election.

Again, I hope you ARE right, my friend. And I won't feed the trolls. :) Right now, I just can't care about 2008. We have to do something about the voter irregularities. Even if it wasn't massive fraud, something went wrong and it needs to be fixed.

Once more to make it a wish: I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT. :)

The best we can hope for, in my view, is NOT just proving that the machines are unreliable and wait for the next election. That's along the same lines as the people who are saying, "Oh by the way, who are you for for 2008" — the main thrust of this thread — that we can't allow that detour. We can't change the subject to "next time." This is it. Either we fight now or democracy ends with a whimper HERE. This is why we need a major political game plan that includes mass action NOW including marches in the streets. Have we forgotten how to march? The great progressive activists of yore would be rolling in their graves. We can't wait till next time. November 2nd was not a game. It was a COUP. Communism was thrown out of Czechoslovakia without violence because thousands and thousands marched in the streets non-violently. We need to do this now. We have to get in the streets and we have to stay in the streets for months or as long as it takes, to deny the Bush presidency LEGITIMACY and so that the WHOLE WORLD sees that the American people are rejecting his phony election victory—read this:

http://wholeworldiswatching.blogspot.com/

Here's how to steal an election:
http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm


Hey trolling freeps, why aren't YOU in Iraq now?

The Anti-Coup by Gene Sharp:

http://www.aeinstein.org/organizations.php3?action=printContentItem&orgid=88&typeID=16&itemID=57&User_Session=7173b40542e0ac0a761a24d3565b0e5a

People have to talk to each other. Personally I'm into houseparties, with sign ups for volunteering to have their own houseparties.
Solicit ideas, opinions, and BBV recount funds. Toss some dough to your local Democratic party.

Aloha Truth, you are a light in the darkness for me.

It actually occured the day the Republicans succeded in killing the paper trail legislation in committee. I don't know what day that was, but that's when we lost our democracy. Now the Dems are saying "Doh!"

Why the hell the Dems didn't scream bloody murder to the media on that day is beyond me, but here we are in a nation with no way of proving if our national election was free and fair. Last time I checked that doesn't qualify as a democracy.

God love Bev Harris and BBV

Because that has about as much chance of happening at this point as this election being overturned.

Stop calling people trolls simply because they aren't interested in having their hearts broken any more than they already have been by betting on things which are unlikely to happen.

We've still got Football!
Go Eagles!!

It was a thread you started and it went something like: "If you believe..."

Nice going!