Apocalypse Now? A discussion...

There's been a lot of discussion about the fundies and the Rapture (c) and how it relates to Iran, Iraq, Israel, etc.

What, exactly is their contention? Where do they get this mandate (the Bible, obviously, but what specifically?) Who are their leading proponents? What are their 'signs of the impending Rapture (c)?'

I just wanted to collect all the End-Times knowledge that we have here and sort through it to see if we can formulate some kind of coherent theory for their world-view and possibly prepare and conteract it.

I was a indoctrinated (odd story, but it was my mom's misguided form of boarding-school character development, until she went and actually found out what they preached) as an early teenager in a cultish church that had a very strong end-times zeal, but all I learned was that everything I liked was evil and I was Hell-bound ;)

It's all Apocalypse, to me.

edit- You said it all when you said "indoctrination". It's all about education and genuine enlightenment, as opposed to indoctrination.

2nd edit- There are lots of hints and references to a coming Apocalypse: From the Rapture to the Mayan calender, the 13th baktun, to the Kali Yuga. The gist of them all is about cycles, and the cyclical nature of things. As above, so below, and there are models of cycles all around us. We tend to think linearly and are loath to think cyclically, particularly about our fate as a successful, civilized, and prosperous species. Turn, turn, turn...

as the vedic system goes, Kali Yuga is the age of dissent and hipocrisy. It's only just begun - 5,000 years old out of 432,000 in total. Things are supposed to get progressively worse, until there is a partial devastation at the end, and then the cycle begins again with a new Satya-Yuga.

and other versions of the 'rebooting' of the ages.

Time frames are often symbolic in nature, and meaningless on a practical level. The mythic import of cultural lore is usually more of a gestalt than a precise accounting.

I strongly recommend the Rapture Exposed by barbara Rossing. She does an analysis of the "rapture story" and where the rapture people get their ideas (mainly a few verses of the bible and some loons with nothing better to do) she also tries to invoke a positive message from the Revelation. you may have to order the book, not many stores will have it!

Most of the biblical prophesy concerning the end of the world comes from Daniel and Revelations. In Daniel, the statue in the dream Daniel interprets represents seven empires, the last of which may or may not be the European Union. The antichrist will come from this final empire and usher in a brief period of peace, after which Russia will attack Israel and the shit will hit the fan.

I think Van Impe's arguments for calling the EU the last empire are pretty flimsy. But he has his fans.

Back when I was trying to find God I asked my Methodist pastor about the rapture and he said there is no basis for it in the Bible. So there is still a lot of debate about that within the Church itself.

Has the anti-Christ been announced (at least to them)?

I remember that at one point Mikhail Gorbechev was considered the AC, and there was a whole belief system that his famous forehead contained the mark of the devil in the form of a dragon and the stars of israel... or something like that.

How strange that when I read your post, you currently have (had):

10. The "mark of the beast" n/t
Chimpanzee  (666 posts)
Tue Nov-23-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #4

"The power of Christ compels you (to post at least once more and change that number ASAP)!"

:scared:

The last empire, also called the Revived Roman Empire, is supposed to have 10 subdivisions and 10 kings, and VI claims that the EU will subdivide the globe into 10 regions. He also claims that the EU flag was described in Revelations and that the Illuminati have been planning all this since the 1700's.

Could I borrow some tinfoil, please?

I have to be a little drunk, though. I really want to meet that guy in private some day, just to try and figure out if he's sincere or a total huckster. If you watch through the whole show, you'll realize it's basically an infomercial to sell his videos. Which by itself does not prove that he doesn't believe what he's saying.

What a beautiful racket! If I were better looking, I might try my hand at it, too.

...to write to Jane magazine and recommend Rexella for a Jane Makeunder.

In Troy, Michigan. Someone I know works there and has seen her there.

Plus, they must go to some church in the area. My guess is a big, pentecostal church like Bethesda Christian Church (in Sterling Heights) or one of the Assemblies of God churches.

Was it not Thomas Jefferson who referred to Revelations as 'the rantings of a madman'?

I would rather our government made policy decisions based on facts, logic and a deep understanding of history.

Historically, mixing politics and religion has turned out rather poorly, wouldn't you agree?

as for revelations, it needs a new literary interpretation

VI claims that Condi contacted him for foreign policy advice. I have not seen her confirm this, though.

after the Apocalypse they have caused.

an immanent and, eminently avoidable, apocalypse.

Few of us will survive the Apocalypse. The fundies who do survive it will all be in the shadow government in a bunker in Colorado or Nebraska, scratching their asses and wondering what happened to the Rapture, since they were supposed to be the ones to go.

It's a real pity the rest of us won't be there to see the stunned expressions on their greedy piggy faces.

I live close to a fundy storefront church, and that's where I'm heading before that first nuke hits. I want to see at least some of those jerks wake up before we're all incinerated.

the anti-christ? No I don't think so - because according to the scriptures the anti-christ will be able to deceive many - so that many will follow him. He will be very Christ-like with hidden agendas.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh - maybe I actually made my point. Not all of us are deceived, however.

Bush - is a deceiver of many, but not all.

I apologize - I'm rambling a little today!

Please have a look at the Book above...it deals with Biblical prophecy in particular...I am unable to think of the Authors name..sorry

I found this book to be quite a good read....in it, it shows exactly what is happening with the US and the world...it even says that the last war(Holy War) will be fought with eyes wide open...meaning that people are blinded by the reality of the situation and don't even realize they are fighting a war....JIHAD(holywar)it also points out that there will be people saying they speak with God and so forth(CHIMPY),but you are not to believe them...I am paraphrasing and probably not doing the book justice...PLEASE READ IT!!! It is very EYE OPENING.

A long time ago. It would be interesting to re-read it now and see how accurate it is. Then again, I think I'll just read the Dune novels again.

I will bring out my copy and have another go....just moved so its tucked away...gonna have to find the box its in and have another refresher...

I read it back in the day. Stuff I remember...

Birth of Israel was supposed to usher in the last generation. We're at 55 years and counting. I suppose they're arguing about the "Biblical" length of a generation nowadays.

10 horns of the beast was the European Common Market, which conveniently had 10 members at the time.

Gog or Magog (I forget which) was the USSR. Gone the way of the dodo.

Still haven't seen a charismatic world leader who's survived a massive head wound yet.

Biblical prophesizin' is a hell of a racket. Inaccuracy doesn't hurt your credibility, as long as you've got an exciting new angle on events to supercede the old. And you keep promising that Armageddon will be here REAL SOON NOW.

Did you know that LGPE was the top selling "nonfiction" book for the whole decade of the 70's? There was a massive untapped appetite for this horseshit even back then.

I am currently reading a very interesting book by a Lutheran theologian debunking the Rapture. The Rapture Exposed by Barbara Rossing. She lets them have it for their idea that it doesn't matter how we treat the planet since the rapture will be coming very soon anyway.

Daniel and go from there. You will get the idea.

all agree that the time of such will come like a shadow in the night. All throughout the world people will be living thier day to day existances and "Poof" they will vanish into another realm, there to await judgement day which will not come until later....

The Mayan calender states firmly that the end times shall begin in the month of December, 2012. And yet they also believe that it will not be total destruction but a house cleaning per say where all the trash is taken to the dump....

The thing of these predictions are that almost every single sect believes the same, that we are living in those times and it will happen in this lifetime, but lets go back hundreds of years ago, many people then believed it as well. In England towards the coming of midnight that marked the turn of the new century 1000, it was firmly believed by so many that this new day would bring such destruction...

After several hours and hundreds of suicides later, the people hunkered down inside shelters came slowly out to face the new sunset...

Who knows ;-)

on the winter solstice.

be more than a mere ending of the Mayan Calender, a long article but well worth the time..I still think they believe something will alter very significantly in Dec of 2012, though some believe it has to do with ET's revisiting us on that date...

And another site from different people and religions that are about prohphesies...

Enjoy..


http://www.crystalinks.com/prophecies.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/mayanprophecies.html

The Earth changes will continue until 2012. The Elders say that the process can be easy and aligned or can be catastrophic. Human energy will decide this.

is no slight to the point you are making. But scant few Mayan codices exist, and much is mystery.

There are few clues to exactly why the calendar ends, other than the turning of the age, which was my point for citing it.

The Ancient Maya, and the remains of their cosmic culture, are still enshrouded in mystery and confusion. To this day, much of what archeologists base their findings upon is founded on guesses, not facts. Theories and speculations fill the history books. It looks like we may never understand what the Maya are saying to us. Like a giant cosmic joke, the riddles and puzzles left behind by the Maya are still as much of a mystery today, as they were when they were first discovered by the Spanish.

Maybe understanding the Tzolk'in with only the mental body was not the approach the Mayas themselves intended. As we can see, the archeologists are still guessing, with decades of research behind them. If the Maya intended us to understand their knowledge of the universe, they would have to leave remains behind that would bridge all cultures, languages, and all levels of education. This is what the Maya have done. Without a doubt I can tell you the knowledge of the cosmos is available to all. It is available to those who can open their hearts to the wonder and curiosity of the universe once again. The encoding of the calendar is intuitive and is remembered with feelings. It is also very mental and can be learned with study. As daykeeper, Hunbatz Men has told me, we need to use all our bodies to remember everything. The physical, mental, emotional and spiritual bodies are needed. Without desire, wonder and curiosity there is no intention to remember. Without study there is no understanding. To reconnect to the cosmos and receive information from the Sun, as the Maya do, one must not only place intention by physical study, but desire to remember! As we move our physical bodies into action to study, the intuitive side will just kick in, but desire is most important and quite essential. That's it! This is what the Maya intended.

http://www.crystalinks.com/mayancalendar.html

Peace.

perhaps its not really all about us, after all. perhaps they were rather similar to us, in that they primarily went about their business from day to day, and the 2012 date was as arbitrary to them as the apocalyptic date of 1000 A.D. was to us.

spirituality than we are. Their writings and their culture revolved around it. Though not much remains of their writings/codices, they are clearly a record, and not written for any particular audience.

is recognizing that nothing ends. If you say the Mayan calender predicts the end of the world in 2012, you have mixed up the terms of two conflicting world-views. The calender doesn't end, it goes into another cycle, similar to the precession of the equinoxes.

Personally, while the calender is a fascinating relic, it is a pity for anyone to attach their fears and hopes to it. Another earless "god" to pray to.

There is no beginning of a new cycle.

they are using Revelations as their template. However, Revelations is a lot like Nostrodamus' predictions - very malleable and open to interpretation.

surely all these fundies and this THIRD GREAT AWAKENING <booming voice> have got to have something specific to go on. I mean, Revelations (which almost didn't make the cut into the canon) and Daniel have been around for millenia, and now, all of a sudden, we have an Apocalyptic foriegn policy and the fundies crawling out the hills to bring about Armagedeon. Why now? Whta has specifically gotten them riled? They weren't like this during Reagan and Bush I, when some of the same conflicts were being fought. maybe because, as I posted earlier, they were all agag with Gorbechev, but it just seems that overnight, everyone but me has become a fundamentalist waiting to cross the Jordan.

We hit the trifecta and it's a perfect storm. The constellations lined up and blah, blah, blah. It was bound to come together at some point and the point seems to be now. Lucky us!

Frankly, I wish I still believed in all that claptrap. It would be nice to rid the world of the fundamentalist/rapture pestilence. I'll hang out with the sinners, thank you very much. I hope I'll be allowed to since I did the born again thing when I was much too young to understand what I was doing.

Supposedly "Jesus will be coming back like a thief in the night." so you want to be on your best behavior all the time...

The opinion was a condemnation of Arafat but included what I consider "end of times" thought process.
snip> As a Christian, I am not at all surprised that 2000 years after the resurrection of Jesus, the whole world is all up in arms about a tiny plot of land called Israel. All this outrage over a country that gives both women and Arabs the right to vote, unlike every other Arab country! The Bible predicted that some day, the whole world would be against Israel. Today, we can look at the United Nations and see that it has passed two-thirds of all its resolutions against Israel.

The headlines give a great deal of credence to Biblical prophecy. In Zechariah 12:2-3, we read the eloquent words that Jerusalem shall be a "cup of trembling" and a "burdensome stone" for all people.

All this was to happen after God fulfilled His promise in Ezekiel 37:22. That promise stated, "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land."

This happened in 1948 when the nation of Israel was reborn 1878 years after the Romans crushed the last Jewish revolution. The Romans expelled the Jews and renamed the country Palestine, the Latin name for the land of the Philistines, Israel's archenemy, as a final slap in the face of the freedom-seeking Jews.<snip
An obvious supporter of B$$$.

I think those are the "hard" criteria for the world to pass before we can have the Apocalypse.

Israel became a State in 1948. Since then many Jews have moved there. There are Christian groups that collect money to send Jews from around the world to Israel.

They (the Jews in Israel) need to get the Dome of the Rock 100% back into their possession so they can rebuild the Temple of Solomon and start sacrificing lambs again. (They have not been able to properly sacrifice lambs since 70 AD when Herod destroyed the Temple.)

Once there is blood on the Alter in the Temple, I think that's the big green light for the Rapture (second coming of Jesus), the Tribulation, The Anti-Christ, Armageddon, and the Millennium. Or at least that's what I was taught in Sunday School...

born in Israel 2 years ago that sent Apocalyptic Jews and Christians into orgasms. Another sign that the rebuilding of the 3rd temple is imminent.

Loonies.

This is from memory and I can't find references now, so I apologize for that. The whole Rapture thing comes from a phrase "caught up to the clouds," where the good folks who make the cut are caught up to the clouds with Christ when he returns. One reference is I Thessalonians 4:17. I thought there was reference in one of the gospels too, but I don't see anything in my concordance now.

Anyway, "caught up to the clouds" is an idiomatic expression in the language of the day (probably Aramaic?) which means very happy, kind of like "on cloud nine" in English. So it really means when Jesus returns, his followers will be on cloud nine. A word-by-word translation of an idiom into a language that doesn't have that idiom loses meaning; to take that word-by-word translation as literally true is just plain silly. That's what the whole Rapture industry is.

Here's an analogy: Suppose I make a prophecy today and say that when Jesus returns, he'll go around talking to people about their life and their situation, and every time he talks to someone about their life, he hits the nail right on the head. Now sometime later someone translates my prophecy into a language that doesn't have that expression "to hit the nail on the head." Then some wacko preacher decides that every word is exactly true, so all my followers start going around all the time with a nail taped to their heads because if Jesus comes back and they don't have a nail on their heads, he won't talk to them. That's the Rapture.

BTW, the Rapture isn't in Revelation. They just take a verse here, half a verse there, and mush them all together to make a scenario, even though the verses they mush together don't really have anything to do with each other. I'll post some more about Revelation as soon as I have time--I've studied Rev for over 40 years and have some insights that will make fundies apoplectic.

Twenty years ago the fundies assured us, with the absolute certainty of literal Biblical inerrancy, that when the tenth nation joined the European Common Market, then Armageddon would happen, they'd fly off into the sky, and we'd all go to hell. Of course, it didn't happen and now they have new revised "inerrant" predictions.

This ECM stuff was all based on the beast from the sea, which has seven heads and ten horns and comes out of the sea to rule the world. The ten horns were supposed to be the ten nations of the ECM.

First point: They always claim to take it all literally but obviously they don't. If they took it literally, a beast would be a beast and ten horns would be ten horns. Nobody in the world takes that story literally. When they *interpret* the ten horns as a *symbol* for the ECM, they're not being any more literal than if I interpret them as ten Prussian pretzel-makers. They don't take it literally and they apparently don't even know what the word literal means.

Second, this whole passage is in a part of Revelation that clearly, obviously, and unambiguously is talking about the Roman Empire. The real Roman Empire, not some fantasy of a revived Roman Empire 1900 years later that is, in fact, neither Roman nor empire.

Third, the reason they have to fantasize about a revival of Rome is because they don't even read what Revelation itself says it is about. At the beginning of the story, the author of Revelation (John) is instructed to "write in a book the things that you have seen, the things which are, and the things which must happen hereafter." That clearly says that Rev is past, present (from John's temporal point of view), and future. Since the fundies think it's all predictions, in spite of what Rev itself says about that, they have to fantasize a repeat of history because they won't let the past be the past. Again, they don't take it literally.

Finally, the story of the beasts (note plural) is in Rev 13 and Rev 17. The first part of that does a subtle but very bold reinterpretation of Daniel; everyone notices that it's about Daniel but no one ever notices how John reinterprets Daniel. The second part reads like incomprehensible gibberish, but there is actually a very clever and delightful riddle embedded in it, based on his reinterpretation of Daniel, and solving the riddle makes the apparent gibberish read smoothly and clearly. Solving that riddle is way too long to write here (and I want it for the book I want to write about Rev some day). BTW, a riddle is very much in the spirit of Greek philosophy and prophecy, and Rev is after all a Greek book. There are several other logical riddles in Rev that people generally don't even notice that they're riddles.

i finally posted a thread that got some discussion going! :)

Thanks everybody. Having seen the ugliest aspects of religion first-hand, it worries me to think that these people may be motivating our foriegn policies. If anyone has read _Skinny Legs and All_ by Tom Robbins, it's like we have Rev. Buddy Winkler Hell-bent to rebuild the Temple to grease the tracks of the Apocalypse Express.

It's important to keep the two separate. And also to keep separate Religion from what it's about.