Church & State (Mixing Politics make Faustian bargain)

This describes the problem of mixing church & state... great article... Churches mixing in politics make Faustian bargain...
(please excuse if this is a dupe)

Churches mixing in politics make Faustian bargain
Charles C. Haynes
Gannett News Service
Monday November 22, 2004

<snip...>
“My pastor kept asking us to pray for George Bush to win,” a Georgia woman told me last week, “and most folks seemed to go along with it. So I just kept quiet and secretly prayed for the other side.”

She’s not alone. A majority of frequent churchgoers may have voted for President Bush (if surveys are right), but a large minority voted for Sen. John Kerry. Not all Christians — not even all evangelicals — are born-again Republicans.

But the word “Christian” (not unlike the word “moral”) is increasingly tied in the news media to the word “Republican,” thanks to the successful alliance between Karl Rove and leaders of the religious right. (In one pre-election news account, a minister described comforting a parishioner who anxiously asked if he could remain a Christian and vote for Kerry.)

Growing numbers of Christians are alarmed by the hijacking of their faith. In a recent editorial, Robert Parham of the moderate Baptist Center for Ethics vowed to “take on the religious right more forcefully — critiquing its false religion and anointment of the GOP as God’s Only Party.”

Meanwhile, emboldened by the perception that evangelicals decided the election, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and other evangelical leaders close to the White House are already lining up to claim the spoils. They expect to have the power to shape the Republican agenda on everything from constitutional amendments to Supreme Court appointments.
<end of snip>

< full text URL below >
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/breaking-news-story.asp?submitdate=20041122151925

My comment... we need to get these Christians on the bandwagon with us... take note of pastors names and members who are objecting and make contact to help with our cause...

I really don't get these people who come on here and are like "I don't care if I say ____ to piss off the evangelicals they'll never vote for us" when from what I hear 1/3rd of them voted for Kerry (and around 20% of white evangelicals did). The idea that the right has a lock on these voters is largely a construct of a few well-funded leaders, but perpetuated by media coverage of those few figures and...you guessed it...left-wing activists like us. It's like...do we want someone like Bush* to win with sixty percent next time? I have more contempt for people who recruit for the religious right from the left than from the right.

I agree, the Democratic party should NOT even attempt to cater to these right-wing relgious loonies. Falwell and media (CNN, Fox, et al) are the ones that promote and publicize these non-Christian lunatics, trying to make the world believe that Christian is defined as "Right-wing Chistian(?? NOT!)-Republicans" when true Christians are not on that plane at all.

Those such as the lady who sits in her church "quietly"?!?! should instead be dropping membership or at a minimum speaking up! She did vote for Kerry, but did it quietly?!?! This shows you how the churches have intimidated congregations to the max. These folks must stand up and voice their opinions or drop their membership from any church that has such non-Christian agenda.

From my state, one of the most offending was the Catholic priests and their right-wing followers - including intimidating the poor and hispanics who were in dire need of the Kerry-Edwards change of direction!

Let the Religious-Right-Republicans stay where they are and get what they deserve. We don't need in any way to cater to them, as they are blinded with an agenda from hell. Any politician that caters to these right-wing (non-Christian) lunatics is also an idiot!

Shit, we're in trouble. We. are. in. fucking. trouble.

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...

I did read the post. I am not in favor of catering to them and tearing up our US Constitution and Supreme Court justice appointments. They are not inclined to support any Separation of Church & State in a secular goverment as in our founding documents. I am not willing to bend to changing our US Constitution to cater to a national religion or dictatorship. The ONLY way they will ever see the light is when they realize they have been duped both in money and votes for a cause that should not have been... something VERY strong.

It is possible... for instance... in California when Gov. Termintor was running against the gay incumbant, the religious-right-Repukes rushed to the polls to vote Arnie in (he won!) - why did they do this? because Arnie told them he was "born-again". Now, after him putting liberal agenda on the 2004 election (stem cell, etc.), they are raving mad and quite sorry they voted for this foreigner! But, you or I or any politician could not have changed their opinion --- Arnie had to do that for them (and he did!).

If you know of some way to cater a democratic agenda and get the far-right-Republican vote... I'd like to know what it would be. But, the "quiet" ones that seemingly are too intimidated by their church to be active is another story... there may be something we could do to help them get out of their shell and help us before we lose our US Constitution and potentially become a dictatorhip in the meantime.

ALL "born-again" or "Christians" are not Republicans and I agree with Lozo that we should be able to help them outside their church in some way.

I'm not advocating anything about messing with the separation of church and state. Or adopting right-wing policies. It's about showing respect for someone's religious beliefs while promoting our policies. And supporting those people who may be quiet now, but maybe won't be if they get what they need from us to take a stand.

Yes, I fully agree and I do fully respect all religions. I am also a full supporter of "Separation of Church & State". I am, however, rather sick of the media and right-wing Republicans equating "Christian" to "Republican". It's simply not true and that's about all you hear from the media and those bogus leaders such as Falwell who get plenty of "free press" to spread these lies. If only pastors of a different opinion got as much "free press" to let the world know that all Christians are not part of Falwell's agenda and that we do NOT equate Christian=Republican or "Christian=non-secular government supporters".

Yep, I think we are on the same page. Sometimes I have problems stating my deep feelings.

It's been a long time since high school (for me anyway)... but, I have strong feelings about the "Separation of Church & State" and have refreshed my high school studies by taking a number of great courses on the http://www.pbs.org website. I am so sick of the extreme right putting all Christians into one lump... quoting their massive right-wing support using total church membership numbers or a specific faith total numbers, etc. Assuming everyone (even in one church) is all so far right...

I just did a post on one of the courses I went through online to refresh myself on this subject and posted it tonite if anyone else is so inclined or have a need to refresh themselves and better enable them to rebut some of the extreme right myths and lies about our founding documents and "Separation of Church & State"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=226&topic_id=9#251

My above post was responding to a root post on the Separation-State DU threads which had a great post referencing the following article on this same subject we are discussing: (a very good article to read)
"Fighting Words for a Secular America" http://www.msmagazine.com/fall2004/fightingwords.asp

"So I just kept quiet and secretly prayed for the other side.”

Why the hell did she keep quiet? The whole country practically "kept quiet". From churchgoers pretending to go along, to coordinated campaign workers telling me that there were no lawn signs because "lawn signs don't vote".

We lost the election because between the media, the bushbots and the faithful, a perception was created that the pukes had big numbers. Close enough to steal it. Which they did.

Speak up people! Those that go with the flow don't even know that we have a current.

I've said this for a long time: if someone comes here and happens to be in one of these churches, they are some of the most important people on DU. Now if we're trying to get political work done, is it good or bad that we inundate them with references to "gawd" and "jeebus" and call them "religiously insane" and all that? The only reason I see that people do that is personal gratification. I think politics, especially ours, is about more than personal gratification. We need to let them know we'll be behind them even if their church is not.