I say it is now time to form a viable third party

Here is my thinking. For all intents and purposes we have been abandoned by our Party. It actually started well before the election took place. Forearmed with all the knowledge concerning BBV and a history of outrageous and illegal actions by the opposition, the Dems should have been fully prepared to contest this election. Yet all we got was a wimpy concession and some vague lip service about making sure every vote counts.
I for one am sick and tire of lip service. I want a party of action. I want a party that is willing to go toe to toe with the opposition in representing our best interests. I am sorry to say this but in many respects the Dem's are as tainted as those they want to replace. The entire system from the top down is broken and the only way to fix it is for We The People to take charge and make it happen. And the only way to do that is to form a Third Party comprised of people just like us. Yes it will take some time but it must happen and we must begin right now.
Here is my action list. First we need to attract some top flight people to act as spokesman and help build credibility. Folks like Howard Dean come to mind. Next we need to mobilize all of the many activist groups in the country and bring them together for a summit meeting to establish our platform, set priorities and build an action plan. We then have to actively recruit, fund and promote candidates across the country at all levels who are like minded and want to fulfill their obligation to be true public servants. I think significant dollars can be raised simply by using the electronic media such as the Internet. After all look what it did for Howard Dean's campaign. And I think enough people now are fed up with the system that they would wholeheartedly support the effort. Finally, we absolutely must have a major news outlet that can independently and objectively report the news. We would depend upon this organization to conduct independent investigations, unfettered by government or corporate ties or restraints, so that those who would do us harm are outed and brought to justice. All of this must happen. Yes it will take time, effort, people, and money. But, we now know, we cannot live in a society run by two parties wholly influenced and corrupted by the system.
It would be great if we could get the Mods to help us at DU launch a grassroots effort to take this action. I for one am ready to jump in and do whatever I can to help make it happen. I know we are all consumed with despair, frustration and outright anger. And I also know that DU is a wonderful place to vent one's feelings, but we must not lose sight of our objectives. We activists have to be active. And we know that we have to take action now. If we truly want to live in the democracy envisioned by our forefathers then we must do everything humanly possible to take back our country - right now! Are you with me? If so, let us mobilize and tell the Mods to help us.

The third party should be the fiscal conservative party - abandoning the religous conservative republican party.

Then, the Democratic party will be the dominant liberal party again.

it would be hard for a 3rd party candidate to win an election.

I think having a Moderate Party would be a grand idea otherwise, but factoring in the electoral college and fund raising for campaigns, it would be a tough row to hoe.

There are methods one can use to get a message in the media. Remember Howard Dean's fundraising stunt for an advertisement in Texas? The idea in itself was politically useless, but it gave the campaign a lot of media coverage.

Too many Democrats take a passive approach to the media.

...period.

the platform exists- the debate within green circles (the national green party and the local parties are two separate entities that occasionally cooperate) is whether time and energy should be put into building a bottom up organization- running candidates in local elections and building a team of people who are experienced in elctions, and moving progressive agendas forward on the local level- or top down, where we have pres candidates and sen/rep candidates who get very few votes but theoretically activate porogressive thinkers.

i am green, and believe action on the local level is what will work best- here in MA, any office below state rep doesn';t really have a party designation, so greens can run and get elected on the platform. without carrying any baggage - as can pukes and dems...

whalerider55

join up with your local DFA group. They seem to be working closely with the Progressive party people...

I read their platform and it is great. That is a good place to start. DU won't be of any help, organizationally, because it is an organ of the Democratic Party. But I agree with you 100% - we need a real party that reflects true progressive ideas and policies. We need to start now.

Nope. Here's the 411 straight from DU Rules:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

WHO IS WELCOME ON DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, AND WHO IS NOT

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

This is a "big tent" message board. We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion. You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.

Third parties can be effective means to get the message out. The problem is the tactical issues that arise in electoral politics ("98,000 Florida votes for Nader blah blah blah"). Perhaps a "party within a party" that would support the candidates as well as the goals of the Progressive Caucus would work better in the short term?

up the votes we have, ensuring repub victories.

What do the people proposing to "go 3rd party" have against fighting for their vision in Democratic primaries?

Winning the Dem nomination provides a great platform and an excellent base upon which to build a winning candidacy. (57 million votes, in the case of President)

Winning a 3rd party nomination ensures nothing: no platform to shout from, no base to build upon. What do you do after that?

Peter

so that they can stab us in the back - again. No.

If you win, you get a candidate you prefer, and the alleged back-stabber has to go home.

--Peter

Candidates run in primaries to see who gets the nomination. Then the winners face off in the general election. The winners of that get to vote on legislation etc.

Now it's your turn.

Peter

There is only so much Democratic party apologetics that I can take.

If you direct your efforts to a 3rd party, you'll just either end up irrelevant (aka Nader, Badnarik) or a spoiler (aka Perot).

Direct your efforts toward the primaries and you can actually hope to win something.

That's how the conservatives took over the GOP. Not by going 3rd party, but by taking it over from within.

Act smart.

Peter

on the Holy Emperor's appropriations bill? The Democrats are finished as far as I am concerned. I will no longer support either of the corporately owned parties, ever again. After the recent appropriations bill vote, anyone who wishes for progressive change and votes Democratic is an idiot.

If you don't like how certain people vote, why don't you challenge them in the Democratic primaries? Defeat them there and they are gone, replaced by a candidate to your liking.

If you can't defeat them in a Dem primary, what makes you think a 3rd party candidate would have any prayer of victory against them?

--Peter

that the Democratic party will retain its base of leftists and progressives. I don't think it will. I think that the democratic party is headed the way of the Whigs. I would rather have a real progressive party with only one quarter of the house and senate (not right away, but in time) than sell out my beliefs to a Democratic party that will betray those beliefs with total abandon, for their corporate masters. If I must work within a minority party, I want one that reflects my values and ideals - not one that only wants my money and vote, but then say F. U. when it comes to standing up for what we believe. But that's just me...

:thumbsup:

"It's time to form a 3rd party, because a 3rd party is forming."

You have no evidence to suggest that the Democratic Party is going anywhere. 57 million votes suggests it is not.

If you get your way and have a "real progressive party" with 25 Senators and 100 Representatives, we will soon have our Constitution amended beyond recognition by all the 2/3 votes the Republicans will be able to amass.

I still haven't heard why you are so opposed to trying to run primary challenges against all these alleged back-stabbers. Please tell us.

--Peter

but you are right - democrats tend to vote republican.

This is not a system where you get the number of seats corresponding to your share of the vote.

But you may be right, the Dems may simply cease to exist. Oh well...

officially divide into 2 parties.

I think it's just as possible for some of the Christian Right to split off from them, if we can wait awhile. They just might get fed up with being used or not getting their way with their party, so it could happen.

the way progressives have gotten "fed up with being used <and> not getting their way with their party" over here?

Republicans or Democrats?

Certainly the Dems have made many strategic & policy mistakes in the past, but I'm sorry. I do NOT subscribe to the theory that there's not a dime's worth of difference between the two major parties.

It's kind of like privatizing Social Security or promoting school vouchers. Even though Social Security and the public schools have lots of room for improvement, these "solutions" will ultimately weaken and destroy what we do have, as imperfect as they are.

Imperfect as it is, working from within the party is far & away better than splitting it up.

I'm mad as hell at John Kerry (and Bob Shrum for his horrible LOSING advice) but there's also a possibility that we can rehabilitate our party from within. Maybe Howard Dean can be at the helm?

My point is that many of us are pretty depressed, and taking it out on our fellow democrats & splitting up the party because we're mad at some of the leaders may make some of us feel better, but it solves NOTHING.

appropriations bill? Now you tell me how much difference there is between the two parties in action.

or the disabled poor lady next door not getting her check>?

thats why they voted yes!

But I also agree with Justyce...

How can we create a third party without further splitting the vote?

It is impossible to create a 3rd party movement with the electoral system we have. It has never happened, despite many attempts over the years. Even Theodore Roosevelt failed miserably when he tried in 1912. And he had been a very popular President just 4 years earlier.

It is possible to take over an existing party from within via the primaries. Then you can actually win general elections, instead of acting as spoiler and ensuring the victory of the worst major political party.

--Peter

I think the Whigs vaporized before the Republicans took hold, so I'm not sure the Republicans were ever a 3rd party. But I could be wrong.

Anyway, it took a civil war to straighten that out. Is that the road you want to take?

One of the problems with the Dems is the same one the Whigs had. Neither one realized where they were and what was going on. For the past 6 months, every Democrat has been screaming from the rafters that the Bush admin and the repubs are ruining this nation, lying out of both sides of their mouths, wrecking our economy, and the worst bunch of criminals in US history. Now they are all smiling and talking about how they want to cooperate with the admin.! The Democrats may have just been lying about how they really felt in order to get people's vote and this may just have been "business as usual" to your party; but this is a war and we are losing - that is what the Dems and the Whigs have in common and that is why the Dems are on the way out, unless the repubs prop them up for their own reasons...

You know, I wanted to vote green. I hated the way Dems treated Nader and the green party this round. That said, I hate to lose and this, is a loser strategy.

The Independent Party. Why because we want to be independent of corporate greed and influence. Why because we want a government that truly represents the will of its people. It is the same reason that the Thirteen Colonies elected to fight for its independence and form this great nation.

The Irrelevant Party.

Instead, fight from within. The primaries are your friend. :-)

Peter

Sorry, couldn't resist.

:evilgrin:

Democrats actually have a rather large number of elected national officials, governors in many states, control of many state legislatures, etc.

3rd parties? No elected national officials, no governors (I think), and control of zero state legislatures, etc.

Peter

3rd party? Hell, I'd settle for a viable second party right now.

Why are you so opposed to working fro WITHIN the party? Is is TOTALLY UNREDEEMABLE?

I'll stay independent, vote locally - until Diebold takes NY too.
Then, I'll stop.

to stop relying on one individual to champion everything you believe in. The time for social action is here.

Looking to the past, it was movements outside the political parties that ended up transforming and defining the party.

Think of civil rights and labor and the Democrats.

Think of the religious right and the Republicans.

Organize to protect our own rights and our own futures - any group or party who wants to pitch in are welcome.

And you want to ensure the pukes ALWAYS win??

That is the "REALITY" of your suggestion!!!

Could also be asked of anyone staying Democratic...

They'll probably even help finance it.

:eyes:

Yes I hear your arguments that a Third Party will benefit the Repukes because it will split the liberal wing from the Dems. I don't buy it. I think there are many many independent voters (estimates as high as 30 to 35% of the electorate) who cannot identify with either party on any regular basis and would like to come home to a party that truly listens to them. With proper organization and funding I think such a Party could actually be viable in time for the 2008 national elections.

BTW just for the grins, if Howard Dean was running as a Third Party Candidate how much of the vote do you think he would have gotten. My bet is at least a third. He may not have won but he sure would have shaken things up. Of course all of this depends on us getting one standardized voting system that cannot be rigged.