Okay , if most Democrats want to be centrist , and most

Democrats aren't doing anything about election fraud.(it appears most deny it happened,) and if most Americans do admire Bush, what reason would there be to stay here and fight? This is hypothetical but I do want to know what people think because I keep hearing these things and I can't imagine what point there would be to stay here if these things are true. Unfortunately , the Dem party seems to be supporting this point of view.

charge. It is up to US.Don't forget it is our country that they are trying to steal. I for one want to kick the fascist thugs out of my government. That is why to stay and fight.

it is "their" country as much as if not more than ours. They are defining what we are. Why should we want to remain part of that nation they define ? Particularly if we have no force to change it?

I don't blame anyone who leaves any more than I blame those who stay. I don't feel a part of this country any longer and any freeper who would like to pay my expenses to relocate (I've heard this from freeps more than once, "I'll gladly pay for the damn liberals to leave the country"), I accept.

we can come up with 5 million fraudulent votes. Even if things were to change in Ohio and Kerry won the EC the loud mouth bushwads would never let it rest that bush won the popular vote. Kerry wouldn't be able to get anything done and would be out after the first term. Best thing at this point is to just give it up, bush won, but make sure that future elections will be honest by investigating this one's frauds.

we don't need no stinking elections.

You can't change the mind of the cool aid drinkers. And with the Nazi's in control how could you either investigate fraudulant elections or ensure that another one isn't stolen? You aren't making the case for staying.

"Best thing at this point is to just give it up, bush won, but make sure that future elections will be honest by investigating this one's frauds."


Make sure future elections are honest? How, pray tell? We are not in any control of any aspect of the game at this point. We were supposed to make sure THIS election was fair, because we KNEW they were planning on stealing it. Instead, we all shrugged and said, "Well, maybe next time." Friends, there won't be a next time. They needed us to roll over this time to make sure it all worked. We did. Now, they'll have years to make their rigged system look even more "fair" while they lock out any opposition from questioning or investigating.

Something struck me while listening to the Ukraine reports...whether the people or the party claiming control of the government had the army on their side. Months ago I recall reading several stories here about the CIA and top generals prepared to back the citenzry of the US should Bush steal this election...we never gave them a chance.

Our call to action has expired. America didn't take to the streets, didn't bitch and moan...we were as bad a Kerry...we just packed up and went home when we KNEW that our democracy had been raped. This country is but a shell of its former self when we have to look to the Ukrainians for inspiration in defending democratic institutions.

over his 2000 numbers - when gis ratings were 42% and he never had large numbers showing up when campaigning. Then, I might play the "new imperial reality"


''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And
while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll
act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and
that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you,
all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
Bush aide to Ron Suskind

Bush still had a huge margin over Kerry in the Popular vote. People wanted him *gag*

In my view, we should figure out why people voted against us/Dems.
We've heard it said by some that they didn't leave the Democratic Party; it left them.

Maybe we should be brave enough to look into this.:think: Maybe our party has gone off it's rails to become too conservative, too "whatever", too close to the "Wealth at any cost" machine. Maybe we should start a movement to DEFINE who we are and then STAND FOR IT. No wimping out.

The Liberal movement has achieved so much for this society over the decades...it seems we are "Loosing Ground" today; blending in with the wealth and prestige crowd way too much. Forgetting the basis for being Liberals/Democrats in the first place....the workers, social responsibility, tolerance, civil & human rights, wellness etc.

They were more thorough than we thought. I simply do not believe W picked up 11 million more votes than the first time out. No way, no how. This is the most reviled president in history, people turned out in record numbers to vote, to vote HIM OUT OF OFFICE. We kept pointing out that there must be a huge difference in vote totals between the two candidates so Rove's vote rigging wouldn't work. But once again, Rove is a smart, evil genius. They knew they'd also need a huge margin in order for the claims of vote rigging to be dispelled. I think they managed to do it. Remember, the exit polls are never wrong, but they were this time. The two states most important for the presidents re-election just happened to be the most completely screwed up states, voting fraud wise, and they both just happened to go hugely for Bush...with no way to verify or re-count. How conveeeeeenient.

No, I will never believe Bush won at all, let alone by such a large margin. Not unless they can somehow explain to me why every time something somewhere goes terribly wrong with an election, it just happens to work out in favor of the president with the worst polling numbers in modern history. He just has amazing luck, I guess.

ANYONE would vote for Bush instead of a Dem? Why would people vote against their own self interest...for the likes of Bush? *gag*

I say we focus on what went wrong in our party, in their party, at the ballot box ...THE WHOLE ENCHILADA.

Hell, I don't even think Kerry WANTED to win, by the looks of it! I think we've BEEN HAD.

"Hell, I don't even think Kerry WANTED to win, by the looks of it! I think we've BEEN HAD."

Kinda hard to argue with that. I think the whole thing was a sham from they day The Corporate Media turned on Dean with the scream video.

.

We have abundant evidence of imperfect technology, but outright fraud? That's a very specific term that has a specific legal meaning, and not to be thrown around lightly. We need to focus on:

1.) How to fix the technology;

2.) Figure out WHY 3 million people liked Bush better than Kerry.

A much more productive use of our time and money, IMO.

You are letting the opposition define the boundaries of the playing field and where the goal posts are.

We won't win until we stop this enabling behavior.

Their ultimate goals are complete repudiation of all accomplished by the Democratic party--ALL OF IT-- since Roosevelt. They want the Federal System to be less powerful than a large sized multinational corporation.

Fer cryin' out loud, the truth is , Howard DEAN is a centrist, and John Kerry is to the right of him.

And don't get me started about the Hillary wing of the party.
And Joe Lieberman, sheesh. Right off the edge of the right side of the table.

One fights because not doing so, would make it hard to live with oneself.
One fights because living with a lie is bad for the soul. One fights because one doesn't want to feel shame when later in life kids ask" where were you when...?
Sure, if the party were with us, our chancer for suceeding might have been a bit better (with all that money we fattened them up to).
But the party never inspired me do do anything - at best, it didn't embarrass me.
To be realistic, i am not very optimistic about our chances - been at it since 2000. But, I'd lose my self-respect if I'd give up.

We must protect the world from the spread of even more religious fanaticism! :puke: I will not allow the religious right to define me, strip us of our rights, and persecute those whom they deem to be unholy, and pervert our constitution by turning our country into a theocracy. I do not give into thugs, I am not intimidated by them. They have stolen another election, and I feel it is my responsibility to stay and defend democracy. WE MUST NOT ALLOW THEM TO STEAL ANOTHER ELECTION!!!

I have always seen the democratic party as more closely alligned with my values, morals, and interests than any other political party but I have never cared a great deal about the party or its leadership. I have always seen it just as the most useful tool available for accomplishing many of the political things I consider worthwhile.

In the past that sometimes has included limiting the power of the republican party even though it often was controlled by fairly decent Americans. Now decent Americans who vote republican have no control over their party. Control of the republican party lies almost entirely in the hands of the Neo-Cons and Theo-Cons. The Tax Cut Monkeys are the only other republicans that have any influence in the party, but even they are subject to Neo-Con and Theo-Con control.

Neither the Neo-Cons nor the Theo-Cons see any value in the rule of law or the US Constitution. They want to spread death and destruction and US domination internationally and sharply curtail civil liberties, social safety nets and many other socially valuable programs domestically. Social justice and dissent are anathema to these people and they will always strive to eliminate both.

But these goals will not be satisfied when the entire "Axis of Evil" has been bombed and destroyed and when the US has reverted to pre-New Deal labor, tax, and economic regulatory laws and the elimination of valuable social programs. Neo-Con and Theo-Con appetites for their goals will never be satisfied. That is the nature of such people. History teaches that they never stop in their quest for control and domination.

New countries will have to be dominated through violence or threats and their laws rewritten to remove the concepts of social justice and economic regulation. No matter what country one might choose to relocate to, it will only postpone the day until the Neo-Cons and Theo-Cons come knocking at your family's door. It may be many years or even many decades but they will come. If not for you, then for your children or grandchildren.

For these reasons, limiting the power of the republican party has become more important to me than ever before. All other political objectives are secondary to that. And I see the democratic party as the most useful tool available to accomplish that. I worry about the likelihood of success but I am convinced of the necessity of trying.