do you support school vouchers?

If so, why?

they're intended to undermine public education and divert funds to wingnut indoctrination centers

but not for private schools ...

It siphons away scarce resources from public schools.

you recall when Newt came to town with his contract on america?--he and others wanted to do away with the Dept of Education--well that did not work--so these tactics--such as vouchers are their first line to dismantle puplic education.

Without accountability, it's useless. No way to measure if a child is indeed in a better school or not. Oh yeah, public schools are accountable. IF private schools CHOOSE to take a standardized test, they DO NOT HAVE TO REPORT THE RESULTS. Here in Wisconsin, the program in Milwaukee is not doing all that well. Most schools in Wisconsin that did not meet their AYP (adequate yearly progress) were in the Milwaukee area. Yes, there are excellent private schools, but I bet those that are, have proof that their students meet the requirements of NCLB. Just my 2 cents, from a Wisconsin teacher.

Because I think that many of the voucher proponents are only using the concept to help dismantle our public education system.

be destroyed. I've often wondered why public schools didn't just become chartered and get out from under the bureaucracy.

Or is that an anachronism?

that is riddled with problems?

I'm just wondering what we're to do with the kids whose families don't have the cash to send them to private schools.

they see fit. It's not ALL about money, you know.

See my post #15.

standards or public accountability. Teachers don't have to get certified. How is this better?

PS... Charter school students are not testing as well as public schools, even thought they have the right to pick and chose the students they will educate.

but I was a teacher for many years and an administrator and a supervisor.

YES! I am extremely proud to be a TEACHER!

So what is your question?

Before you answer...


I feel I am supremely qualified to say that Charter Schools are a tool used by the Religious Right and the BushCo to destroy public education.

AND

I have witnessed CHILDREN LEFT BEHIND in CHARTER and PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

and one of my grandparents as well as my great grandfather.

lower standards. Allow teachers to teach.

without going to charters.

the curriculum?

possible in private schools. It is happening & it works.

All teachers have some flexibility to teach in their own way, private schools are no exception. But each teacher is NOT writing their own curriculum.

the headmaster and takes several years to perfect. Some of my children's classes don't even use books because the teacher could never find a text that fully covered the subject. Instead they work from a collection of photocopies.

Core knowledge - it works.

ROFL...

Boy have you been sold a bill of goods. You are taotally brainwashed by this school and by the myth that kids are not doing well at public schools.
You are about as uninformed as a person could possibly be about the facts.

Shame, shame.

into a system with no particular curricular standards or accountability? This just gets better!

I help out in my son's classroom everychance I get.

Core knowledge is: DON'T THINK, just study.

NO THANKS.

knowledge. Why don't you google it?

Just remember, I can look up the Heritage Foundation just as easily as you can.

What a joy that you're able to contribute to society.

If you can't do it, that's not MY problem.

But now I'll have to check it out.

you have now given the money to less qualified teachers, fewer regulations and less experience administrators. The statistics are showing that Charter schools are failing to do as well as public schools in the same community. I can't imagine why that surprises anyone.

(chosen by lottery from county wide) are doing very well. Their school is an "A" school, their teachers are paid as well and have the same state retirement benefits, health benefits. They are certified (must be.) They write their own cirriculum. They must take the same state wide FCAT and standardized tests.

I am in favor of allowing a school to opt to go charter as opposed to staying in the political school board dominion.

Another school tried to go charter and the superintendent closed it, fired the administrator and the teachers who voted for it. Then he transfered the students to the High School and the kindergarten and first grade to the old school.

In Florida a majority of the parents, teachers and parents must vote to go charter.

I was at the meeting where the superintendent faced the parents. It was obvious at that meeting. It's about power, not education.

Oh, and by the way, no child in that fight.

It's about power. And our children, parents are just caught in the middle. That explains a lot.

they see fit. It's not ALL about money, you know.

magnets schools (strict entrance requirements) and get the majority of the money siphoned to them. The rest go to public schools and pay the cost for the magnet schools.

I believe that studies have shown that charter schools do not perform as well as public schools. Here in Los Angeles, the best schools are magnet schools. My children went to magnet schools and by far outperformed children from private schools in major universities.

The test of private and public is not who pays, but who has access, i.e. admission requirements. That is why many do not support magnet schools. In many areas, they are private schools that are only open to the priviledged. They take funds from public educations to support enrichment programs not available to the vast majority of students in public education.

This is heartening so far. :)

never as currently defined.

and I should not have to pay for public schools as well as private schools to get it.

not an obligation of society as a whole? And who is keeping you from seeking the best education possible for your child?

when my child is only in one?
I do not think that education should be socialized. My answer is no.

I hope that every American citizen has access to adequate health care and education. I believe that every working person should be able to receive medical benefits at least equal to those receiving public assistance.

<<I believe that every working person should be able to receive medical benefits at least equal to those receiving public assistance.>>


so...you're not for universal health care?

edit: btw, i don't think it's good to use GOP's terms like 'socialized medicine.' :puke:

it's like calling planned parenthood 'pro-abortion'

What's with all the right-wing terminology? I'm waiting to see Carolinian launch into a rant about how the Democrat party is enacting the homosexual agenda with the help of enviro-fascists and feminazis.

Let's see...you're against "socalized medicine" (in your own words), you think the entire public school system should be scrapped.
There's something really odd about this, but I can't seem to put my finger on it...

Whatever it takes - get it done.

They'll just suck money from the public school system, gutting it. We've had these arguments over and over and over on this board. Pity you missed them.

And you completely missed the point I was making with the "can't put my finger on it..." comment.

What needs to be done?

Be specific--and again, remember, I can look up the Heritage Foundation website too.

but not with the likes of you.

Give me a citation to some reports, anecdotal or empirical evidence, statistics--ANYTHING.

I'm a researcher by trade, saying it doesn't make it so.

:eyes:

I'm just gonna hurl--this is disgusting.

unaffiliated. I registered as a Democrat just so I could participate in the NC caucus. I never intended to stay a democrat and you are doing a good job of hastening my withdrawal. I'm sure YOUR party appreciates ambassadors such as you.

You don't support public schools, you don't support universal health care (You called it "socialized" medicine) and now you admit that you registered as a Democrat ONLY to participate in the North Carolina caucus. AND that you never intended to stay a democrat. So what democratic values do you support?

Look at this thread. Just look at it! There are over three hundred posts here, and overwhelmingly the majority of those who posted are AGAINST vouchers. Considering that you've done nothing but quote "stats" (if you can call them that) from places like the Heritage Foundation and a recited virtual plethora of right-wing talking points about vouchers, each one having been refuted by numerous posters on this thread, you'd think that you would understand where the Democratic party, and progressives in general, stand on the issue.

Vouchers are not the fix you think they are, and you've not effectively argued your point. Vouchers are simply a means to completely sink the public education system, something the right-wing has been dying to do for DECADES. And while your children go to the private or parochial school of your choice on my money, millions of children whose parents simply cannot afford the tuition (vouchers won't pay for it all, you know) or are not accepted into the private or parochial school (there's simply not enough room in the private schools for all the children who want to be in private schools.) will have to return to public schools that are now underfunded (yes, money matters. NO price is too high when it comes to the children of America.) and understaffed because there are not enough teachers to go around (some of them were hired by the private schools to deal with the massive influx of students, but alas, not enough people are studying to become teachers anymore in college.) and thus, the public school system will die an undeserved death. But what do you care? Your children are in a PRIVATE school.

personal experience. My viewpoint has not changed.

And this simply isn't true:
"And while your children go to the private or parochial school of your choice on my money..."

My school receives NO help from taxpayers.

I'm enjoying this thread more than you will ever know.

People whose children are well out of school pay for public schools. Public education funds aren't tuition, they're the price we pay to live in a civilized, educated society.

Private school tuition is a choice you made. If education is not to be socialized, then what, pray tell, are we to do with all of those uneducated poor children in today's market?

No one forced you to send your kid to a private school.

behind. I should only pay for one school system.

Did you bother to get involved with your local school?

for everything that came up. Nice people, but a losing system. Taught to the test & not much else.

I pay for 2 systems: public school and private school. Perhaps you would like to be my attorney on this?

I pay for 2 systems: public school and private school.

Yes, you do. The latter is by your own free choice, as has been noted before.

so that it can fail more children?

Kudos for your involvement, but private school tuition was still your choice.

THEIR child. The ones without children can continue to pay for public schools.

Would it be feasible to reduce the size of public schools then reform them by modeling them after SUCCESSFUL private schools?

How is it that private schools provide a superior education for less money per student?

My children have attended both private and public schools in several different states. They flourished in the public schools and suffered in the private schools. Just as many private interests and BS in the private schools as in the public schools. It is often worse in the private schools, because parents think that with money they can buy access and it is often successful. Most private schools are elitist and further divide our fractured society.

A child's education is what he or she makes of it. If parents spend the necessary time volunteering, supporting the educational needs of their child, and assisting the teachers, it really does not matter where they education is received, it will be successful.

Furthermore, school vouchers will destroy what is left of the public school system and will prevent many of our children from receiving an education. The last thing we need in this time of uncertainty is a further dumbing down of our population. We must fight for the right to an appropriate education for all of our children and not take money from a public school system that is already strapped.

A public education is a right; A private education is a privilege.

Can you show any statistics at all to prove your point?
In most cases private schools are simply taking the students easiest to teach.

private schools don't have the same standardized testing public schools do. And if they do take the standardized tests, they don't have to release any of the scores.

You can say, "Well x% go to college" but that doesn't prove anything, that x% would have gone to college no matter what.

You could also say that the average score on the SAT is higher - still doesn't prove anything. The demographics are so skewed that likely those kids would have made the same scores no matter what.

Private schools don't have to contend with learning disabilities. If a kid isn't "good enough" they just don't let him in.

and Moe.) They were political scientists.

Chubb, John E. and Terry M. Moe. 1990. Politics, Markets. and America's Schools.

It took the only two nation wide school systems, Catholic and Government, and tracked students for ten years.

They took care to match, urban to urban, intercity to intercity, suburban to suburban.

It is a good study and is often required reading at University level.

BTW, when it was published, they wrote that the study completely destroyed their basic premise.

The Howard School in Atlanta, which is excellent and serves LD kids exclusively.

The tuition is also $15k/year for high school.

If someone decides that private education is the better choice for their child, then let them send their child to private school and not be billed for public school as well.

They are part of the commons.

don't just pay for our children's education. They pay for the education of all our society, which benefits all of us.

to saying that I ought to have the right not to pay taxes that fund the interstates because I'm not going to drive there. I don't want to pay taxes that go to the CDC becasue I'm a pretty healthy guy. I'm not yet poor so why should I pay for welfare?

Universal Public education is for the betterment of all Americans and is paid for by all americans, whether you have kids going to public shools or not. There are problems with the system to be sure but the solution isn't to let folks just say it ain't my problem.

throughout the thread.

Here: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Education/Schools/schoolchoice_2003.cfm

Warning for the squeamish--that URL is the Heritage Foundation.

private schools are better than public schools.

It is my sincerest wish that public schools operate just like this "perfect" school. I think it is possible.

which students it accepts? And yet you wonder why private schools can supposedly provide a better education. Short answer would be that they only take in the better students.

Of course, that's not completely correct, since there aren't any statistics or studies which validate your assertion that private schools provide a better education.


I'm appalled at the selfishness which has dominated your posts in this thread. Very unsettling to say the least.

provide the same standard of education and school experience that I found in ONE private school? And what is wrong with trying to provide a quality education to the kids caught in failing school systems?

I am unsettled by the misconception that private schools are rolling in the money & only open their doors to the elite. That's total bullshit.

What should our "poor, pathetic" public schools do to meet your wonderful. rosy standards?

Be specific, or quit repeating the same RW claptrap.

schools do to improve?

don't you know that to them it is ALL ABOUT MONEY?

Yes, education takes money. We don't need to take tax money and give it to private business. Like another poster said, public education is a right, one which society owes every child. Private education is a luxury.

You said that the public schools were two years behind. Could you tell me the grade of one of your kids and what they are studying that they would not study for two years in public school?
And what state do you live in BTW?

set them straight.

have been educated thanks to our current system of public education ...

Is it 'perfect' ? ... of course not.

But: is it a "losing system" ? .... hardly ...

Are you not throwing out the baby with the bath water ? ..

Are you NOT taking a few instances where some children don't appear to 'learn' in a public school environment, and implying that the WHOLE of the student body are not learning anything ?

It isnt fair to castigate the whole system because a percentage don't do as well as we would like ... no system is perfect ...

THIS much I know: prior to the introduction of public schooling, there was rampant ignorance amongst the masses ... We have NOT eradicated ignorance, but we have put a huge dent in it ...

Denigrating all of public schooling is a cheap thrill usually reserved for the UN bashers and religious right .. and it is fallaciously derived ...

What we need are BETTER public schools, with MORE money to purchase the resources they need ... the voucher system does EXACTLY the opposite by re-directing public schooling funds to private affairs, thereby starving the public sector by chipping away at it's support, making it even LESS effective as a tool against public ignorance ...

Vouchers are the WRONG approach, and fallacious smears against public schooling as a whole goes counter to what we believe as Democrats ....

Your line of argument is entirely consistent with the Libertarian view ....

Ehem ... Hello ? ...

thread. I don't give a damn whether I sound like a Libertarian, Republican or Democrat. Public education has a long ways to go before getting my stamp of approval.

to not give a holy fuck WTF you think ....

I'm just done discussing issues in a liberal forum with someone who promotes libertarian policies: policies which I believe to be destructive of one of the primary institutions of progressive thought ....

Never said I was wrong ..... and your saying it doesnt make it so ...

ideas. My posts were intended to DISCUSS my point of view - not to get into a slapdown fight with someone with opposing views.

So here goes yet another attempt. There's no denying my kids could get through public schools with enough education to make it in the world. If that's all education should be about then I would have to agree with you that public schools are just fine. However, my family has experienced a much more fulfilling education through a wonderful private school. I believe the public system could learn from successful private schools that operate on much less money than the public schools and the students & staff are far happier.

Now, Trajan, what is so vile about my point of view that you feel the need to tell me to fuck off? You're one that really needs help.

Just as privitization of Social Security will destroy THAT progressive institution ...

That is the whole idea of these notions ...

Nothing stops educators from 'learning' from private schools: all they need is more money to have the resources necessary to teach ... The insinuation that money MUST be removed from the public school system in order for them to 'learn from private schools', is a non sequitur ... funding for and inspiration for better schooling are completely separate issues ...

It is the goal of you and your friends to siphon off the necessary funding for public schooling to ultimately destroy it ... This is an absolutely UNliberal, UNprogressive notion ...

BTW: .. I didnt say 'Fuck Off' ... I said "I dont give a fuck what you think' ... I dont suppose you would recognize the difference ....

public schools will not be solved by MONEY. The success of other schools with less money proves it.

of public schools, so that we lowly parents, educators, and taxpayers can benefit from your divine wisdom?

Just one--a single puny, specific, suggestion of what can be done to improve public schools?

Just answer the damn questions put before you and that's the last you'll hear from me.

Til then: DEAL.

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but for the most part they won't be solved WITHOUT money either. Try working in an inner-city school. The kids are tough. Place my kids in your perfect little school and see how the teachers handle it.

What kind of private school do your children attend? While there are a precious few which are not comprised almost entirely of children upper middle class to rich parents, they are pretty rare.

Most students in private schools in this country are white, Christian, and middle/upper middle to rich. That kind of "education" doesn't really teach a student how to function in the real world, what with all those poor brown people running around in it.

in our state. I don't think anyone can call him a Republican.

to pay for your private one?

All you've said so far is "private good, public bad, and I have to pay for those nasty public schools."

Poor, poor, pitful YOU.

I HAVE TO PAY FOR YOUR DAMN SCHOOL BUT I CAN'T AFFORD TO SEND MY CHILD THERE.

BUT I'M STILL FUCKING FORCED TO PAY FOR YOURS--I live in Arizona.

Look it up.

I pay for two systems--simple as that.

Two volunteers? Three? Than not enough was done on your part.

I didn't do enough because I couldn't work a full time job AND be in every classroom every hour of the day. (?????)

Please elaborate at this school where no one joined the PTA. How many students? What about the socioeconomic demographics? Parents mostly unemployed, working at one (or more) minimum wage jobs? What times were the meetings? What did that school's PTA do to encourage membership?

parents didn't join because they didn't want to pay $3.00 or do volunteer work. That's the reasons they told me. I remember some laughed at us when we planted flowers because we were working for free. We just couldn't get past that mindset.

Basically, the attitude was that it was the school's responsibility to teach their kids - not the parent's.

I don't know any statistics (It was 6 yrs ago) but I remember that it was 55% white 400 students in 4 grades. We live in a prosperous area, and I don't remember unemployment being an issue at all and I'd say that most were factory workers. Meetings were day, evening & weekend. We weren't aggressive about recruiting because we all know each other, but we always had a sign-up table at events.

At the time I suggested that we just calculate how much it would cost to cover all the families as PTA members and just pay it from PTA funds but that was pooh-poohed down. (Never ones to try anything new.)

I don't know if this could be applied to public school, but in our private school all families are automatically members of the Parents Association without any fees. At enrollment each family is told that they are expected to contribute to the school community and they will be called from time to time when the PA needs assistance. I like that because it brings all parents into the process. Of course there is room for exceptions.

If most of the parents were factory workers, did the PTSA the factory's corporate offices in the municipality to get support from them to get parental support? The reason some working parents refuse to get involved and volunteer because they are working at least one job, and probably as stressed not knowing how to juggle volunteering at the local school with their other obligations.

This why community support is so important. If the factory's management saw there was a problem in the public school system then it would be a problem for them eventually, that is, they won't find a set of skilled workers when they graduate from high school.

I'll pass that along to my co-workers who are still in the system. I think they have more teamwork now. The principal was replaced with a very outgoing individual and it made a big difference.

Here is how you can find out more:

If the company has a website, search for their position on education relations. There may be a representative within the company, but not at your location. But between the school and the school board and the chamber of commerce, should be able to present a case for company support.

You mentioned the school system "taught to the test"...but wasn't this part of the NCLB? What do you think about NCLB?

encourages manipulation. For instance, when the children are tested in the fall the teacher doesn't show them anything helpful beforehand like checking to make sure they're on the right page. The point is to help the child score as low as possible. That way the spring testing will almost guarantee an improvement in scores. I had a child that went from the 38 percentile in the fall to 99 in the spring. Ahem.

There is so much drilling for the tests throughout the year, especially in the sping, that the other subjects fall to the wayside. I just loved geography when I was growing up and it broke my heart that my child missed it altogether because of EOG preparation.

BTW, I thought everything about grade school was way too competitive.

I'm not a teacher so I feel free to throw crazy ideas out there for discussion. Is there any way to structure schools so pupils can progress through "levels" in each subject so they can work at their own pace? It doesn't seem right to keep one child from learning because another child cannot learn as quickly.

of that, as well?

Because that's the natural logic.

I'll be damned if I wnat to pay for your kid's elitist education.

that we should be so happy to do so, since they provide all those scholarships to the poor black children in her area? I mean, those poor *black* kids would just grow up to be crack dealers and welfare queens if left to the public schools. But it doesn't sound like there are any poor white kids at that school... :crazy:

the wonderful and warm, while us lowly who send our children to public schools are to be scorned and shamed as we tithe for their bastion of enlightenment!

I live in AZ, I pay taxes to provide vouchers, and I am SEETHING!

At least I don't have to subsidize private schools- yet. I'm sure when the Texas Lege convenes in January that bill to basically privatize Texas education will finally be passed. It has been one of their priorities here for quite some time. As if our Texas schools weren't hurting enough (we have schools in the Valley that don't even have enough textbooks for their students), now we'll have to make sure that Tad and Buffy can go to their own school and not have to deal with those "undesirables".

Do you ever use a toll road instead of the freeway because the toll road is less crowded?

so they can steal from her because they have no skills to get a proper job.

and then she can pay to have them incarcerated for what effectively will be the rest of their lives.

Or she can complain about having to pay to keep people in jail, and then they can roam free again, stealing from her further.

operate like your perfect private school?

public schools arent businesses, they dont care how many students they have.

On edit: I am sorry I was insulting. It was uncalled for. I just feel very strongly about the issue.

am convinced that the good private schools have the answers to our education problems. My children's school feels like a family and it has since we enrolled there 6 years ago. I constantly think...why can't our public schools be like this? It isn't money, cause our school operates with far less $$ per student.

It's disheartening to read the posts by teachers who are so defensive about our present public education system that they have closed their minds to any alternative.

because IF they have special ed, it is in a smaller percentage than the public institution's share of special ed students. Does your school educate students with behavior disabilities? What is the percentage of the total student body? Are severely disabled students that have a teachers aide for each student accepted? How many nurses are on staff for these students? Did you know recent supreme court decisions asert it is the public school's responsibility to pay for an aide for these students AND the nurse?

What about ESL students? Are they welcome?

Why would a private school accept students like that? After all, doing so might ruin the perception that they provide a better education.

Is that too much to asK?

My kid is FORCED to attend a public school, so I have to make the best of what I've got.

Even if I could send him to a private, I wouldn't, but there are a whole hell of a lot of us who will never have the luxury of that choice anyway.

Yes, I'm very angry, but I have yet to see you cite any SPECIFIC thing public schools could do to improve.

because I don't share your point of view. Just the way we want our kids to learn to get along in the world, eh?

Let's just eat them. :9

;-)

Public funds are for public education and you don't even begin to pay for your kids education in public or private school. You neighbors pay for your kids educations just as other people paid for yours.

You want to opt out of your responsibility to contribute to society by paying school taxes. You decided to send your kids to private school. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you paying both. You have an obligation to help educate all kids just as everyone helped to educate you.

system, I should only pay to one school system and it should be the system of MY choice - the one that best suits my child's needs. If you had an autistic child, what course would you choose - public or private?

Do you have an example that suggests I am wrong? The fact is that private school teachers do not have to be as well educated by law and they are never as well paid. Most teachers worth the money go to public schools because they can not live on private school salary.

standards. You are basing your opinion on "Christian" schools which are very different from private schools. The private school that my children attend is 2 years ahead of public school. It is a math & science core knowledge curriculum. Almost all of the teachers have Masters and a few have Doctorates. This school fills the special needs of the gifted child and has an excellent learning development program that is recognized nationally.

I keep running into attitudes towards private schools that are biased and incorrect. My experience in both systems tells me that a true educator would look into the success of these private schools and find what is working and bring it into the public sector. Most of it doesn't cost a dime - just the willingness to open minds to new ideas.

of one subject being taught that is ahead of public school. Are the teaching factoring in 2nd grade or what? I'd like a specific example.

Private schools do not have to have certified teachers and do not have to pay teachers decently. Your school may be an exception.

My experience with both public and private education is that private schools are often better at selling you how wonderful they are than actually educating your kids. Remember that they are a for profit business.

As far as seeing what is working and incorporating it.... studies are showing that charter schools are NOT WORKING as well. What is working for most private schools is that they can pick and choose what students to educate. It's called Cherry picking. Most private schools do it, that's fine, but I am not impressed. Public schools must teach everyone and most of the time they do a vastly superior job.

A gifted student suffering in the public system.

I moved my son to private school in 4th grade. At that point the only creative writing experience he had was to make sentences with his spelling words which he began doing after Christmas in the 3rd grade. End of grade testing 3rd grade was for math and reading so I guess writing just wasn't important. (Writing is tested at EOG 4th grade.) When he tested for private school in Feb of 3rd grade, the private school students were writing 4 page reports in cursive (which he hadn't yet been taught). It took him two years to catch up.

BTW, my son had the highest EOG in 3rd grade in the county school system.

They are teaching these kids creative writing and doing a damn fine job of it.

If that's the best you can do, I remain unimpressed and unmoved.

Where do you get this garbage that private schools are elitist? Ours just barely gets by. Many of the families have a hard time paying.

because of vouchers, trying to meet unrealistic standards of NCLB, etc, then they might be able to afford Gifted and Talented education. I was a GT kid in a public school. It works wonderfully. Unfortunately, more and more schools are eliminating GT programming because they CAN'T AFFORD IT. Read more here http://www.nagc.org/Policy/tomlinsonarticlenov62002.htm

My school will most likely be closed within two years because despite our government assistance, we cannot make adequate yearly progress. We have wonderful teachers but a generally unsupportive school system. Our teaching staff is incredibly young and the turnover rate is atrocious. I can't even tell you how many of us are physically ILL from the stress of trying to help our kids be successful. Honestly, for some of these babies, it's a damn miracle that they can even walk a straight line. They live in extreme poverty with all the problems that go with it. The main concern in these kids' lives isn't learning the ABCs, it's trying to survive life in their neighborhoods and even in their own HOMES while retaining some degree of sanity. Your private school wouldn't take some of my kids. How many times could your teachers stand being called a bitch by a five year old? 5? 15? I've been called that and worse more times than I can count, by more than just one child, and I've only had my job since August. I've been hit, spit on, threatened, had to chase children through the school because they were a danger to themselves and were fleeing, you name it and I've seen it. On top of that, I'm right out of college (like many of us in this school, because we're typically the only ones who will take the stress. We need the job.) I'm not a teacher, but a social worker, and I don't have a freaking clue how our teachers do what they do. I couldn't do it. I get at most a handful of kids at a time. I couldn't take a whole class. And yet people with your mindset have the NERVE to undermine the incredible work and these teachers do and the incredible stress they endure. You do it. Come to my school and do it. I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but it's not reality. I'm thrilled that there are schools like the ones your kids go to. Praise God for that. I'm grateful that parents in my town who can afford it place their kids in our private schools, even our Christian schools. My school is a rough place for anyone. But taking away even more of our funding will not solve a thing for us. It will make our jobs more impossible.

On the other hand, sure. Let's let every parent choose where they put their kid. Let's put my kids, with their families and socioeconomic status and everything, into your perfect school. It wouldn't be long till you decide to move your kids to ANOTHER school. A BETTER one. The whole cycle would begin all over again.

As long as there are social problems and economic problems and family problems, there will be problems in the public schools. Your choices are support us and stop whining, or help shove our society even further down the crap hole. In the mean time, I'll keep trying to deal with my digestive and immune problems due to the stress I face in my job, and I'll keep in mind that my co-workers and I are really all just there for the money anyway and obviously don't give a damn about the kids.

not pay taxes on public schools?

Why should I have to pay for Medicare and Medicaid?
I'm not a woman, why should I have to pay for funds for woman's reproductive services?
I don't use the subway, why should I have to pay for NYC subways?
I use a toll road to drive to work, shouldn't I get a voucher because I don't want to pay taxes for the free roads?
I'm not disabled, why should I have to pay for SSI benefits?

Sometimes I wonder about some so called "democrats". Apparently they don't understand "it takes a village". Maybe they should move to a workingmans paradise like Haiti, where you only have education if you have the money to pay for it and public funds are channeled to the highest rungs of society.

Do I get to opt out of THAT?

I'd choose public if I had an autistic child. Easily.

They are taxes paid to ensure the schools are available for all. They also support the housing values in your town. If you're paying cheap taxes, maybe you need to be paying more.

You vote to underfund the schools, and then you complain that they can't do the job?

private schools don't adequately meet the needs for children with disabilities. I would choose public in a heartbeat.

is that it's your choice to put your child in a private school, yet you benefit from two schools.

While your child gets an education from the private school, your neighbors and other residents of your area, with the education they can afford be it public or private serve you in many ways everyday. They may be firemen, store clerks, bus drivers, road maintenance crew, etc. If these people don't have a good education, you will not get good service. Do you want good service from these people or crappy service. If you don't want to help them all get a good education, don't expect much from them.

kid here in Arizona to attend private school. That's not right either.

why should i pay for anyone's schooling if i have no kids in school at all?

sounds like a very progressive idea on education ... let each parent pay for their own damned kid's education if they can afford it ... if not, who cares ...

of course my real view is that we should do our best to educate every citizen. what kind of civilization would we favor if we were to only educate those who could afford it ...

that's what you're calling socialized education ???

spend their education dollar on the school system of their choice. Taxpayers without school age children should pay into the public system.

but why then shouldn't taxpayers without school age children be able to earmark their "school tax" dollars to go to a religious institution instead of the public schools ???

for example, let's say you choose to send your child to the Jesus Christ High School ... and let's say i made a contribution to the Jesus Christ High School's education fund in the same amount as your tuition ... why not exempt me, then, from paying the "school tax" required to fund the public schools ??

shouldn't childless taxpayers have the same choice you have ??

if not, why not ??

are not meeting the needs of a child and private school does, the parents have to pay private school tuition as well as the tax $$ going to public schools. I don't think that is right or necessary.

BTW, do you know what my biggest complaint is about public schools? It's that the teachers & staff talk down to the students. No $$$$ involved.

the parents have to pay private school tuition?? you mean, you don't choose to pay this tuition ... it's mandated by law ???

you have NOT answered the question I asked ... you want to be able to choose where you spend your "school tuition" dollars ... why shouldn't taxpayers without children have the same choice? and what if the school you choose, let's say it's a religious school, doesn't accept children of other faiths ... why should the taxpayers fund that school (they are funding it because you are calling for a 100% tax exemption for money you spend there) ... these tax credits mean that the school is funded by public tax dollars ...

saying that it's because "they don't have a child in the system" is true by definition ... that's the example i provided ... but it doesn't explain why you should get to fund the school you believe in and I shouldn't have the same choice ...

also, i would ask you whether you are willing to acknowledge that by allowing those with sufficient funds to "not have to pay for the public schools", the public schools will be hurt ... your plan seems to create a system like the legal system that appoints a lawyer for those who cannot afford one ... who do you think gets "better justice" in that system ... the rich or the poor ??

I have no problem with your criticisms of the public schools ... but the solution isn't to defund them and skim off desperately needed revenues from their budgets ... education has been failing the children of this country for decades now ... significant changes are needed ... and it's more than understandable that those who can afford private education will do what they can for the kids ... but as a society, I don't see how we can afford to pull the plug on the public schools ... i share your frustration but i don't share your solution ...

Not fair? Too bad. Paying for 2 systems at once isn't either. Having no choice because your school system does an inadequate job isn't either.

Yep, kind of how I feel about your complaints of paying into 2 systems. :hi:

bash anyone who supports private schools. But then that's the whole purpose of this thread, isn't it?

about me or what I'd like to see happen with public schools. I'd like to see much improvement, higher standards for curricula, higher salaries for teachers, more money for textbooks, schedules that fit the student rather than parents, and year round school years- just for a start. But none of that will be accomplished by the siphoning of even more money for vouchers.

The universal education system has been under attack by the right wing for at least 30 years. Perhaps that has something to do with the Hitleresque sentiment that it is much easier to govern an uneducated populace? Nah, couldn't have anything to do with that. :eyes:

What I have a VICIOUS dislike for is that
I also dislike your continued ragging on public education with nary a citiation in sight.

Put your kids in the public system, or move to a town with an adequate public system to your needs.

You just want us to pay for your choice, and we're not willing to do it. Sorry.

before you sent him to this hallowed bastion of education?

I had a struggle in one public school, moved my son to another, and he's doing very well.

are you talking about...

"BTW, do you know what my biggest complaint is about public schools? It's that the teachers & staff talk down to the students. No $$$$ involved."

Since you've met every teacher and staff member in every school in the country, I guess that statement is completely valid.

?!

Any average citizen who does not have a child has to pay in to the public education system. This is because he or she, even without a child, benefits from an educated (some more than others :)) public. I don't think you have a dispute with this reasoning.

Now lets take another average citizen which is the same as the previous person except that this person has a child. Now they pay in the same amount into the public education system. However, they benefit on two fronts. First, her and her child benefit from having an educated public just the same as the person without a child. Also, she gets a free, cumpulsory public education for her child for free (I understand that there are many expeneses when it comes to education but I am leaving them out because she would pay those regardless of a public or private educational system). If you had your way, this woman would no longer have to chip in towards a public educational system, but only towards her own child's (and her schoolmates') education.

Now the burden has been shifted towards the childless person. Why should he/she have to pay more because you made the free choice to send your child to an alternate educational system? Don't you still benefit just the same on having an educated public? Most agree that changes need to be made.

How can I make sure not a single dime of MY tax money goes into a private school (which I can no longer claim, as AZ has vouchers)?

Again, just give us an example. I'm sure your gifted child's exwmplary intellect and fabulous school can be reflected in your own thinking.

It's how the system works.

That's the best way to make sure everybody has the best chance at good education.

pay for the coast gaurd? I also only use portions of three interstates so I'm not paying for any others.

How you can murder the concept of the common good is scary.

I shouldn't have to pay taxes to support the schools? How about school vouchers, should I have to pay taxes to support those?

Doesn't this just make every school a private school, where only those who can afford it get to go? Just because you get a voucher doesn't mean there will be space for your child in the school of your choice.

Your stand on this issue is very confusing.

with no children, and no desire for children. I live in land locked Colorado so why should i ever pay for education, the coast guard or any of that crap?

The reason i gladly pay for education is that everyday interact with people. If those people do not have the education i may not get the medical, legal, governmental etc, care i need. I do not want to have to find one of those special, well connected, monied people who had access to "the best schools." I want to be sure all people have access to the "the best schools"

Public schools need to be the best schools. Abandoning them is not the long-term answer.

NEVER

Worst idea since prayer in public schools: it isn't what this country's ABOUT.

The level of bureaucratic nonsense that public school spend money on is reprehensible. Take NYC, where per-pupil spending is significantly higher than it is at the (typically rather good) public schools out in Westchester. Why?

* Failed anti-drug education (used loosely).
* Security.
* Remedial (in the non-academic sense) programs.
* An inability to correctly educate ESL students.
* Etc.

The natural result is that affluent, typically white families either send their kids to private schools or move to the 'burbs. In both cases, there's unintended segregation, and in the latter case, the city schools lose the money from those families anyway.

This is sadly an expected outcome given the current system. Those who can leave, do, simply because they are better off (and clearly so!) by leaving. There's nothing honorable about sacrificing your child's education just to support some ideal we call public schooling.

Should we educate all children at all?

that's why we'd issue vouchers, as opposed to not providing funding for education whatsoever.

On edit:
You should answer your own question. If (a) those with the means to leave the public school system do so, with few if any exceptions (quasi-public magnet schools aside) and (b) those without the means to do so typically end up maleducated, how does _not_ issuing vouchers meet your goal of educating the masses?

...

Where?

Answer to your edit:

If (a) those with the means to leave the public school system do so, with few if any exceptions (quasi-public magnet schools aside) and (b) those without the means to do so typically end up maleducated, how does _not_ issuing vouchers meet your goal of educating the masses?

It doesn't, nor was it meant to. Restraining the guy with the knife doesn't cure the wounds. Nice try, though.

I assume your question is rhetorical. Obviously, the money comes from the same taxes that the money would have come from if it went to a private school. NB that the voucher money is a win/win, though. The per-pupil voucher money would almost always be less than the per-pupil spending in the public school; therefore, the overage would would be a windfall for the public system.

As for my edit and your response, it's your question, not mine. Turnabout is entirely fair game. You have no other response than divert?

The per-pupil voucher money would almost always be less than the per-pupil spending in the public school; therefore, the overage would would be a windfall for the public system.

From where do those savings come, chief? Teachers' salaries, maybe? I've taught in both environments, and I've seen the turnover. Quality matters in the end.

You have no other response than divert?

I diverted nothing. You chose to create a straw man.

Since non-public schools are able to select their students, would it be unreasonable to conclude that a non-public school would not have to spend as much on security? Also, some teachers may make more in public schools, but others, like my brother are willing to take a little less money to teach in a school without the same issues that teachers in public schools have to deal with. My brother taught in public schools for 6 years. He took less money to teach at a private school. He didn't magically become a worse teacher because he was paid a little less, and his quality of life has improved dramatically. At least 2 other teachers at his old school have done the same in recent years. In his case, the money is made up through a decrease in the cost of securty and a decrease (although not very much) in his salary. I have never heard him complain.

get into Exeter, or some other top private school, then it must not be approved.

Without equal access to all, there will still be a multi-tiered system for the haves and have-nots. One that has equal access--allowing for $20,000 per student per year--would be too expensive.

So send your kids to private school, it's your CHOICE. I shouldn't have to subsidize it.

"So send your kids to public school, it's your CHOICE. I shouldn't have to subsidize it."

The fact that it's not really a choice -- if you don't, you go to jail -- is an artificial operation of the law.

I think that's really where your argument rests. You simply don't give two shits about kids whose families can't afford private school.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1398238&mesg_id=1398378&page=

At least the first time you said this, you did so in a question form. Nice to know you ignore my response and prefered an ad hominem attack this time. I'll remember that for the future.

I'll remember that for the future.

Sorry to have hurt your tender feelings. *Do* you actually give two shits about poor kids?

That's why we'd issue vouchers, as opposed to not providing funding for education whatsoever.

(Is this sounding familiar?)

(Yes.)

Can we really say that the funding for Timmy is $502.96, and needs to be taken out of the public school funding so Timmy can go to private school?

Is it really that simple? Can I also have my tax dollars NOT spent on the Iraq war? Garsh!

Or is this merely sunshine getting blown up my ass?

See, the elitists are worth something--they've figured out how we can opt out of paying for government stuff we don't like!

Thank you for admitting it, finally.

??

But you've got everyone who DOESN'T have children in school picking up the tab for public education. You don't need to penalize the parents whose kids are in private school.

BTW, there are poor black kids in my children's private school. We donate to a fund that subsidizes 50% of the students that attend the school. The rule is that a family must pay 25% of the tuition ($3000) and the fund will pay the rest for those that qualify. Can you imagine how hard it is for these families to scrape that together? Yet they do just that because they recognize that their child needs more than public school is giving them. These poor black kids are also very gifted and, like myself, their parents felt they were dying on the vine in public school.

but not everyone does. Not everyone will be able to come up with the money to pay for the tuition even with the voucher.


It would be better if we had a government that cared about public schools. It would start with having people who care about education.