Dean / ACLU debate (rerun) on C-Span1 NOW (5:20 est)

debate on Civil Liberties and the War on Terrorism between Gov. Bill Owens (R) of Colorado and Howard Dean ...

it was taped July 8, 2004 ...

:-)

The one where the GOP guy preaches fear fear terror terror.

Dean: "I think it's a pathetic indictment of the Democratic Party that I should be considered the most liberal guy in the race."

Have you?

On the few things I have, he's since moderated his positions (during the primaries), thanks to his penchant for being out there with The People and actually listening to them.

GAWD, I love this man.

first, just to be clear, i posted the quote from Dean without intending to attach any judgment to it ... actually, I did not think Dean was the most liberal Democrat running for office ...

secondly, i did have a major disagreement with Dean's Iraq position ... in fact, I was one of Dean's very earliest supporters and dropped my support after he made the following statement ... i'm recounting this from my somewhat feeble memory ... Dean said something to the effect that we should give Saddam 60 days to prove he didn't have WMD, after which it would be acceptable to invade Iraq (if he failed to do so) ...

the U.S. had no right to invade whether Saddam met Dean's 60 day test or not ... the standard for war was, and should be, the presence of an imminent threat ... even if Saddam had WMD, the test would not have been met unless there was substantial evidence that he planned to attack the U.S. and had the capacity to do so ... I thought Dean sold out on the issue ...

don't get me wrong though ... I very strongly support Dean for DNC chair ... I think he's made a tremendous contribution to the Democratic Party and probably offers the only real hope for the critically needed renewal of the Party ...

Knowing what a strong Deanie you are, I'll tell you one other concern I have with Howard ... and this is not a criticism of him, it's a concern ... I've been very torn about whether to remain in the Party ... on the "stay" side is Dean's DFA group (and Kucinich's PDA group too) ... but I have some concerns about the "Deanification" of the DFA ... I worry that there is not a clear line between the Dean campaign and the DFA movement ... i realize this is a bit vague but I would like to see a more diversified leadership of the DFA movement ...

It's a difficult issue to deal with. I have to say, however, that it shouldn't be an issue that you have with HOWARD. Recognize that it's a institutional issue.

We don't. Our group here does not.

I answered your mail.

it is NOT an issue I have with Howard and I fully agree with you that it is an institutional issue ...

I'm also very happy to hear that those involved see it as a legitimate issue to raise ...

It is a PAC, so there are rules.

"Deanification"?

My goodness.

that he formed DFA is not the point ... i'll go further and even acknowledge that since he formed it, he can do whatever the hell he wants to ...

i'm calling your response absurd because it fails to respond to the point that overcentralization MAY weaken the organization and also because if I have concerns about DFA's ultimate loyalties, I'm certainly well within my rights not to become a member ...

not every founder of every organization maintains a very high leadership profile within it ... again, I have great admiration for Dean and what he's accomplished, but I do think DFA would be stronger with a more diversified leadership profile ...

It is NOT centralized at all. You are speaking of something you do not seem to be aware of....that it is a grassroots controlled group. There is very little outreach from the top.

Do you feel better now? I don't think I deserved your jumping on me like that.

as I said, I'm not a DFA member ... i claim no expertise but it does appear to me that Dean plays a very dominant role in the organization and that most DFA members I hear from were former Dean supporters ... that may be necessary to get DFA off the ground ... in the short run, it may not be a "bad" thing ... in the long run, the organization will have to stand on its own without a celebrity at the top ...

that the MN DFA group is addressing this as an issue seems to boost the issue's credibility or at least acknowledges that others have similar concerns ...

And I hear Edwards may as well.

Maybe they won't be associated with theirs.

I find it odd that you seemed surprised that most of us were Dean supporters. Most of those in DFA originally were part of the Dean campaign.

purpose rather than the one intended.
DFA has a specific purpose and philosophy and it has nothing to do with Dean being a celebrity. What an assinine thing to say.

ah, the perfect phrase ...

you take my words and twist them and then call them assinine ... nicely done ... i did not say that the purpose or the philosophy of DFA has anything to do with Dean being a celebrity ... what i did suggest was that organizations and movements eventually have to be self-sustaining beyond the celebrity of those found them ...

let me guess, you're probably not the person DFA put in charge of membership recruitment ... instead of spewing your venom at me, why not provide some useful information ... perhaps if you weren't so quick to see me as an enemy, you would see me as an ally ...

Who should be leading DFA? It was formed by Dean and he is an "honorary" Chairman. Who do you want running it?

if DFA is totally dedicated to moving the Democratic Party to the left and pushing out the DLC, great ... that's what i hope its mission is ...

if DFA is a "keep Howard in the public eye" so he can run in 4 years, i'm much less interested ... i have no problem with Howard playing a significant role in the organization but i think it waters down the mission IF the organization is seen primarily as a continuation of the Dean campaign ...

Join Wespac, as that is probably to launch him in 08. Or PDA, don't know who they will launch. If Kerry forms his group, he would probably use it.

If by a wild chance Dean got DNC chair, which I don't want, he would have to keep his distance cautiously.

Do you think Kucinich should make it clear that it is his supporters mostly who started PDA?

What is the standard here?

If Kerry and Edwards start PACS should they start disassociating?

What is your criteria? Why would you want to join a group founded by Dean if you think he is too warlike, or not honest?

I am really confused here, and thinking about it just confuses my mind more.

as i said before, i don't really care who started DFA ... what i do care about is what is the primary objective (no pun intended) of DFA ...

what's my criteria? my criteria for joining DFA would be based on the following:

1. what is DFA's main objective?
2. can it be successful?

i never said that Dean is too warlike ... what i did say is that he caved in to the pressure with the "60 day" statement he made about Iraq ... let's save that argument for another thread ... i also did not say that Dean was not honest ... i said i thought he caved in on a critical issue ...

now, on criteria number one, IF DFA is Howard Dean's 2008 campaign organization, i'm not interested in joining at this time ... IF the purpose of DFA is to give disaffected Democrats, Greens, Socialists and others a community to help push out the DLC, regardless of what candidate they supported in the primaries, or the general for that matter, then i like what i'm hearing ... so that's what i'm trying to understand ... frankly, no one here's been particularly helpful in providing an answer ... chastising me for being unclear about the primary purpose of DFA doesn't help the situation ...

and on issue 2, i'm admittedly even less clear ... at some point, i need to decide whether the work i do could be done more effectively from inside or outside the party ... i'm currently affiliated with a local organization of "progressive Democrats" although many members are Greens also ... most of the work i've done this year was for local candidates ... i'm not down to a single issue, but the selection of DNC chair might affect whether I stay or go ... there was actually talk at the recent governor's conference of picking John Breaux ...

if someone wants to provide some meaningful response to the purpose of DFA, i'm listening ... if all you have to offer is criticism for my raising the issue of Dean's dominant role, i'll seek my information elsewhere ...

are you any less confused now ??

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/about.php

and read up on what DFA is all about. Here's just the opening paragraph and there's a LOT more.

What is Democracy for America?
Inspired by the presidential campaign of Howard Dean, Democracy for America (DFA) is a political action committee dedicated to supporting fiscally responsible, socially progressive candidates at all levels of government—from school board to the presidency. DFA fights against the influence of the far right-wing and their radical, divisive policies and the selfish special interests that for too long have dominated our politics


And, no, it's not Dean's 2008 campaign organization. Also, if Dean becomes DNC Chair, DFA will continue on its same path.

i hope some of you understand my concern about separating the mission of DFA from the Dean campaign ... you should not view me as "anti-Dean' ... i'm not ... i strongly support him for DNC chair ...

take a look at this link: http://www.democracyforamerica.com/news.php

24 of the first 25 news blurbs that DFA chose to put on their website mention Dean's name ... that's without even clicking the link to read the article ... when i say Dean plays a very dominant role, he does ... 24 of 25 is "very dominant" ...

i've spent a fair amount of time reading the DFA website ... the reason i'm still considering joining DFA is because of the things i've read there ... but they aren't likely to have an article about DFA being a front for Dean's future political aspirations ... i'm not saying that's what DFA is ... and, as i said earlier in this thread, Dean's high profile may be necessary given the relative newness of the organization ... DFA needs headlines, members and energy ... but if it's going to succeed, it will have to prove that it's more than just the Howard Dean Show ...

keep up the good work ... i'm weighing my options ...

I don't see anything wrong with that. I hear that Kerry's new pAC will be called Friends of Kerry, again his name.

Doesn't bother me at all.

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/features/2004/03/17/a_new_day.html

My run for the White House ended last month. But for me, and for supporters around the country, our work to take this country back has just begun. That's why I have formed Democracy For America, a new organization building on the phenomenal grassroots support for our presidential campaign.

I need your help. Defeating George W. Bush will not be easy. His strategists have a $100 million war chest available to transform his failed record into an avalanche of misleading "morning in America" advertising.

What is the best response? To defeat George Bush, the Democratic Party and its nominee must stand up strong for our principles, not paper over our differences with the most radical White House in our lifetime. We must directly expose the ways in which George Bush?s policies benefit the privileged and right-wing ideologues.

To win, we must confidently advance an agenda rooted in hope and real American values,opportunity, integrity, corporate responsibility, and community. People want back the country they believed in, a fair country where middle-class people could make a decent living and send their kids to college. That is not only the right way to take on George Bush; it is also the most effective way to succeed with voters who might be tempted to support independent or third-party candidates.

First, Democracy for America will be committed to strong, sustained grassroots involvement in the democratic process. Today, half of Americans don?t even bother to vote. People see what the problems are, but they are cynical about the system and prospects for change. Only through acting will people recognize the power they have to change this country.

Second, Democracy for America will be committed to promoting an America where candidates and office holders tell the truth about policy choices and stand up for what they believe. The era when politicians equivocate about matters as fundamental as war and peace must end.

Third, Democracy for America will be committed to fighting against the influence and agenda of the two pillars of George W. Bush's Washington: the far right wing and their radical, divisive policies, and the selfish special interests who for too long have dominated politics.

Fourth, Democracy for America will be committed to fighting for progressive policies, like health care for all; investment in children; equal rights under law; fiscal responsibility; and a national security policy that makes America stronger by advancing progressive values.

To help defeat George W. Bush and his agenda in 2004, Democracy for America will focus on key battleground states, mobilizing our supporters and the groundbreaking organizing tools we developed during our campaign planting seeds on the Internet, meeting face to face at the grassroots, bringing new people into the process. We will use these same tools to support congressional, state, and local candidates across America who stand for our principles.

In the coming months, we will:

1. Recruit and encourage progressive candidates to run for office at every level. We will help them find the resources to campaign successfully with small donations from grassroots supporters, to begin to break the stranglehold special interests have on the political process.

2. Raise funds for Congressional candidates for whom financial support could be the key to winning, and whose election will be key to winning back a House of Representatives that has become the tool of the Republican right wing.

3. Develop strategic partnerships with other progressive organizations to maximize resources for candidate recruitment, training, and organization.

4. Build relationships with other political initiatives to focus on the failed, destructive policies of the Bush administration.

5. Harness the power of the Internet to enlarge and support our grassroots organization committed to taking back America from special interests that control the right wing leadership of our Congress and the White House.

The Democrats will win in November if we can continue the innovative campaign techniques learned through our nominating process -- and if we have the have the courage to stand up and tell the truth about our stark differences with this failed President.

Please join me in making Democracy for America a powerful tool to continue the battle for America's future. I hope you will support us with your ideas and your energy, as well as financially, as we move toward the November elections and beyond.

Sincerely,

Howard Dean

i have often argued that the Democratic Party regularly fails to "look left" for more votes ... i'm not talking about policy shifts ... i'm talking about forging alliance with Greens and Democratic Socialists and others who may have left the Party ...

the DFA announcement included these two statements:

3. Develop strategic partnerships with other progressive organizations to maximize resources for candidate recruitment, training, and organization.

4. Build relationships with other political initiatives to focus on the failed, destructive policies of the Bush administration.

i thought i recently heard something about either a merger or some kind of cooperative relationship between DFA and PDA ... has DFA reached out to groups outside the Party?

www.blogforamerica.com

Scroll down the left side. All of the state websites are part of DFA. They have allied with, but not become part of, many of the sites on the left.

I understand there is one other I don't see linked but which Dean has mentioned as an allied site, Progressive Majority:
www.progressivemajority.org

I also know there is a site called America Votes:
www.americavotes.org

Democracy for America is listed as an ally there.

This is in addition to allying with PDA, which has already been mentioned.

i checked out the links you provided ... it would be great to see DFA reach out to Greens though ... didn't see them on the list ... i wouldn't necessarily expect Greens to become Democrats, but it does seem like there should be many issues in common between Greens and progressives within the Democratic Party ...

Do you think Clark or Kerry or anyone else who forms a PAC would hesitate to use it to promote a presidential run? I doubt it.

DFA major staff are Tom Hughes, Tom McMahon, and Laura Gross. You can do a search on them, they were connected to Gore at times, and one was a WH staff advisor. There is other staff as well. Tara does the website, and there is staff for financial matters, research, etc.

There is a huge list on the left. All the way down to the bottom. Did you check out the America Votes site? Perhaps Green would be the way for you to go if all that I have given you is not enough.

Dean has often said that there is room in DFA for Greens, independents, and moderate Republicans. Maybe you just have not paid attention.

I notice you quote Paul Simon. He was a fine man. Did you know he endorsed Howard Dean from his bed when he was dying? That was a pretty special moment. He made a point of letting his preference be known.

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_343154035.html
SNIP..."The Southern Illinois Democrat's political career began with his election to the state Legislature in 1954 and culminated with his election to the U.S. Senate in 1984. He retired from Congress in 1997.

"He has always been very involved in public affairs and politics," said Lt. Gov. Quinn. "Even from his hospital bed last week he endorsed Howard Dean for president. This is a great loss to our country."

More:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0312050318dec05,0,6054641.story

SNIP.."By John McCormick
Tribune staff reporter
Published December 5, 2003

DES MOINES -- Speaking by telephone from his hospital bed in Springfield, Ill., where he awaits open-heart surgery, former Sen. Paul Simon of Illinois endorsed Howard Dean's presidential campaign Thursday.

SNIp..."Simon, 75, who is scheduled to undergo surgery Monday to fix a leaking heart valve, said Dean, who, like himself, opposed the Iraq war, is best prepared to lead the nation.

He called the former Vermont governor someone who will "tell us the truth and not just pander to us."

i really have not made any decision about whether i'll leave the democratic party and where i would go if i did ... i think i would be more likely to work with DSA (http://www.dsausa.org/about/where.html) than with the Greens ... but i'm still very much considering DFA or PDA as well ... i think if the Party lurches to the right or picks a DNC chair i couldn't tolerate, that could be it for me ... but let's see what happens ... i'm still holding out some hope that Kerry may yet rise from the ashes ...

my good chuckle came from your reference to Paul Simon ... the quote in my sig is not from the late Senator Paul Simon, it's from the very much alive Paul Simon of Simon and Garfunkel fame ... the line is from their song: Sounds of Silence ...

I'm glad to hear that Dean has reached out to the other parties you mentioned ... i just didn't notice any mention of these groups on the DFA website ...

I am sure you will make the right decision. As I say, you asked in a rather curt way, we responded.

You have had your fun for the night now. I still say you should not choose DFA if you do not care for Howard Dean. It is filled with his supporters. You know like the PDA is filled with Kucinich supporters.

I thought I explained patiently, I think you already knew your intentions. I don't recommend DFA for you if you have a lot of doubts.

you said i asked in "a rather curt way" ? please explain ... i didn't think i asked anything in a curt way ... i've found your tone to be condescending from the start ...

secondly, what exactly are you trying to say with "you've had your fund for the night now" ?? i didn't participate in this thread for fun ...

thirdly, i really don't need your speculations on what i "already knew" ... i also thought you explained things patiently ... and i thought i thanked you for the information you provided ... are you suggesting i've already made up my mind on DFA? if so, you're dead wrong ...

and as for not recommending DFA for me because i have doubts, i'll return to my first statement and say that's absurd ... my goal is to get more information ... to not join DFA because I have doubts would be making a decision without information ... that's not how it works ...

I am so used to this, don't bother.

Some more alliances:

http://www.crocuta.net/Dean/Transcript_of_Dean_SF_Speech_18March04.htm
SNIP.."Gov. Dean: And, more importantly, you have changed politics forever by showing that it's possible for ordinary Americans with small donations to build a movement that comes from nowhere, and that takes this country back, and that's what we're gonna do.

(Audience cheers and applauds)

Gov. Dean: The President and right-wing extremists are justifiably worried about the power of ordinary American citizens-- they're worried that we will propel a Democrat into the White House in 2004. They're worried that we will actually take the country back. Well...

Gov. Dean And Audience Together: ...We Will!

(Audience cheers and applauds)

SNIP...."Gov. Dean: Now how are we going to take this agenda off, this right-wing agenda? The first thing (that) we're going to make sure that the Democrats do not do any more, is you do not meet this agenda halfway. There will be no compromise with the right-wing.

(Audience cheers and applauds loudly)

Gov. Dean: Let me tell you how I think we can win. In order to beat George Bush, we've got to stand up for our principles, and not paper over our differences with the most radical administration in our lifetime. In order to win, we have to aggressively expose the ways in which this President's policies have benefitted the most privileged, and excluded everybody else. To win, we have to confidently advance a policy agenda rooted in hope and real American values: opportunity, integrity, and community....."

SNIP..."
Gov. Dean: Over the last three weeks I've been into a lot of meetings with other organizations, and so have a lot of our staff folks, and we've discovered that a lot of people are doing the kinds of things that we want to do. We are not going to raise money and compete with those groups. We're going to work with them. So we're going to have partnerships. First partnership I'm going to announce, is the partnership with the Service Employees International Union, for corporate responsibility...
(Audience cheers and applauds)

Gov. Dean: And the second partnership I'm going to announce, is a partnership with a group called 21st Century Democrats, which is very active in government... (portion drowned out by applause)... recruit and train candidates. That's what we do, we're going to work together to widen that net and raise money for each other, so that we can do more and more of that. The third group we're going to work with is the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, to stand up (pauses, interrupted by applause) for organizing, but also to put out the message that this is not the year to vote for independents or third parties...."END SNIP

We all know that DFA is aka 'the Dean people' and PDA is aka 'the Kucinich people,' and IMO there isn't anything wrong with that. People intensely committed to a candidate in last year's primaries forged tight personal bonds, not only to their candidates but to each other. I for one am into honoring those bonds, and for the time being there will be interlocking circles of organizations moving in roughly the same direction. Maybe later on there will be more formal organizational coalescence, but I say let it develop organically.

must be having very lonely Christmases to pick a fight over the role of Dean at DFA.

He's the founder, chair, and only well known leader, and DFA is, in fact, the Cult of the Howard.

Actually Deaniacs here are the outcasts. What a shame.

I think the ones who brought up days old threads to bash us are the ones who need the attention.

It is pathetic that they can't post intelligent things of their own.

Christian buddies on Christmas Eve. What's your excuse?

eating cheesecake and watching "Wag the Dog" I decided to play devil's advocate using my mom's s/n.

But really, the issue is that we should all be able to accept constructive criticism of Howard and DFA, and be able to respond to b.s. allegations calmly and without getting worked up.

Sorry, didn't mean to have a xtian bias.

Happy new year. :-)