For People who voted for Clark in a DU 2008 Presidential Poll

There is a general belief among many that the only reason Clark does well in 2008 Presidential preference polls at DU is because links are being left at outside Clark oriented sites asking people to come to DU to vote for Clark.

Some think there is nothing wrong about links to DU from other Democratic sites asking for participation here, some think that unfairly skews poll results and/or participation on the forums here.

I am not asking about any of that. I am testing the theory of whether or not outside links being posted now are having a strong effect on the results of our polls at DU.

So the questions in this poll are only being asked to those who are voting for Clark in current DU polls regarding 2008 Presidential choices. They are ask how long you have been a member of DU. Because people can lie in selecting an answer, I am also asking those who vote in THIS poll to also make a written post confirming your vote. That way it will be obvious that these results are valid since everyone can check the date any member joined DU via their profile if they are so motivated.

Remember, everyone here was once a DU member for less than a week, so don't feel shy about that if it is the truth.

I have been a member about 18 months. At least I signed up that long ago but could never get in to post.
Forget my user name and password. Kept writing DU but never a response.
I tried again the other night and poof I got in.
I have just been able to read all the posts, never able to respond. But I have been here.

eom

But I would say this same argument goes for supporters of many other candidates. Anyone can go ask their friends to join in a poll. Look what happens when we "DU" a poll at news sites. I didn't vote in this poll since I missed the votes elsewhere for Clark, but have been a member of DU since Fall of last year.

I use to come here all the time, but then changed ISPs and had to re register, but only lurked, instead. I think it was last spring or early summer that I finally signed up from my new ISP.

I was at a DU meetup yesterday and one of the gals said she discovered DU when I sent her here 2 yrs ago.

I seldom vote the polls, cause I don't look for them. But I vote Clark on every poll I see him on!!! This was one of the new topics on the page I come in on, so I saw it.

Mary

nearly 4 years. I know nothing of outside links to DU.

I've supported Clark since the Draft Clark days. If he runs again I will probably support him again.

Mz Pip
:dem:

Then I'll come back in vote in YOUR poll. ;)

I joined shortly after the selection of 2000, so it must have been early in 2001. Someone posted a link to DU at Table Talk that was supposed to be from a WH insider telling us what to expect regarding the institution of state religion. Scared the daylights outta me. Still does.

At that time I registered and sometimes read but hardly ever to never posted. I forgot my password and until two years ago didn't need it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I started reading the site in February or March, registered in April of 2001.

I didn't want to sign up during the primaries. I could have waited forever, though. I can't believe this is still an issue.

Does anyone else remember the posts from the WH insider...it seriously freaked me out. I think that is why I stayed away so long. That, and we were deep into the 2000 count at Table Talk.

When you think you are open minded enough, you've closed your mind.

~Wes Clark

I would consider any candidate with a more progressive stance, and a reasonable chance of winning it all. Ain't no such critter, IMHO.

:)

How did I miss it? :D

..that were created BEFORE they joined DU.

At least, that's the way it used to be.

So if "links" are being put in Clark oriented sites, people at those can't come here and vote UNLESS they're already DU members.

Links might recruit new members for voting in a subsequent poll, but not one underway.

I find it interesting then that we have 5 people saying they joined in the last week. It is possible they joined 6 days ago and voted three days ago of course, but none of the "in last week" joiners have posted so in a message, so when they joined can't be verified. I suppose it is just as possible to lie about being a brand new DU member as it is to lie about being a long time DU member, though the lies would represent different agendas. Oh well, no method is perfect. I appreciate that so many people have cooperated by leaving a message here also.

I worked for his campaign and voted for him in the primary. If he runs again I'll work for him again. I feel he is an excellent human being and we'd be lucky to have him running our country.

I like Clark, Dean, Kerry and several other potenital Dem candidates. I realize supporters of these candidates have strong feelings about them and there's "bad blood" between the various camps but, holy cow, an awful lot of time is being spent on this.

I hope all the people participating in the 150+ post slugfests about the various '08 candidates are taking time to take practical steps in the here-and-now to help the Democratic cause.

Right now, supporting Boxer is taking most of my time. I think she's helping the Dems get up the nerve to take a stand against Bush.

Fight away about '08 all you want, but please also do constructive things. Here's a link to my post earlier today asking people to send an e-mail in support of Boxer:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=296x1207

Okay, thank you, time-out is over -- everybody can go back to fighting now.

about that, I think

I actually only started this poll to resolve one of the constant areas of argument that keeps popping up, because one way or another, whatever the truth of the matter may be, I want to deal with it, get over it, and move on rather than keep beating this particular dead horse. If it turns out that most of the Clark in 08 supporters are recent additions to DU, then so be it, if not, so be that.

It figures my Irish temper would finally get the better of me at the wrong time. I've been biting my tongue watching these huge post-counts build up on posts where everybody's fighting about '08. Meanwhile, when people make posts asking for e-mail or letters to be sent they useually get 15-45 replies tops -- it frustrates me. If you can get everybody to stop beating "this particular dead horse", more power to you. So I'll just back out of the post quietly now, muttering my "sorry, excuse me's", and try not to make a scene and get in your way (sound of door slamming shut behind me).

"If it turns out that most of the Clark in 08 supporters are recent additions to DU, then so be it, if not, so be that."

What difference does it make, one way or the other??? If Clark brings in new Democratic support I would think that would be a GOOD thing. Or is this an elitist site? If you haven't belonged a long time then your opinion doesn't count? Anyone care to explain this to me?

There are endless arguments over it here at DU none the less. Here is one of the mild posts about it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1517014&mesg_id=1520509&page=

On the same thread this was said:

"It was the same thing during the Primaries. Barely anyone had heard of Clark when masses of Clark supporters descended from nowhere (well, not nowhere because we did find the traffic signs to DemocraticUnderground.com on their Clark forums) with the stealth of a bunch of Jumanji rhinoceri trying to build him up as "the most", "the best", "THE answer"."

I don't want to link that post but it is there if you go hunting.

Anyway it has become a real distraction and I am tired of the argument. Saying it shouldn't matter doesn't stop people from arguing about it.

you're completely welcome here and we love you.:hug:

I get the same kind of attitude and I've been here for almost a year and a half. It's because I supposedly came in during "the Great Clarkie Invasion" in the pre-primary period. I will always be suspect here because of the date when I joined. Don't let a few small minded and petty people make you feel like you've got any less right to be here than anyone else.

Under CatforClark2004....with about 400 posts....

Then Re-registered as Frenchie4Clark when I changed my email address in October '03 (I think), and now am FrenchieCat.

Although I have always been somewhat of an activist...I became a bonafide Internet activist while working with the DraftClark movement.

Originally came here from a link on Clark Community Network. Found it to be a great source for Dem activism and info. I always vote Clark and will until he says not to. I try to refrain from posting on other candidates threads unless Clark is brought into the discussion. As an active member of the Dem Party I generally support Dem candidates and Dem causes.

N/T

I come and go, lose my id and password and have to start over, I have no clue...

I don't remember when I signed up at DU. I put down over 3 months but it was sometime last spring when I joined...I think. I lurk, seldom post.n Also had name change since first joining.

Looks like I joined in Feb of last year. Geez where has the time gone???

There is a problem here...you see what it is don't you? Currently there are 48 votes with 10 votes claiming very short periods of time, although from scanning the thread, that would not be the case.

I was responding below the one about the rule about new members not being able to vote in polls that started before they joined.

Most people jump to the assumption (of course this is MY assumption) that if anyone will be untruthful to skew the results of this poll, it would be Clarkie infiltrators who just got to DU but who are claiming they have been here a year or longer.

But the opposite is also plausible, Clark opponents who have been pushing the argument that Clark is not really popular at DU, were it not for outside recruiting, could just as easily lie in this poll also, by voting as a newbie (even if they never actually voted for Clark in any poll), that way padding the numbers to make it seem that most Clark support is imported.

The key is in the messages, and I also have noticed that no one is saying in a message that they are relatively new to DU or that they were one of those who voted in one of the recent member slots. The messages can be verified. They leave a virtual paper trail on the votes since anyone can click on a members profile to find out when they joined.

If the pattern you note holds up Donna, that indeed would be very interesting.

...for the second time when WKC's supporter's group was started. However long ago that was...

I voted over one month, could be over three?

but actually joined at the beginning of this month.

I ALWAYS vote for the President of my dreams :loveya: and have been a DU member for years. :hi:

why don't you drop by the Clark supporters forum sometime. We'd love to see you there.:)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=235

and counting.

Why is it so hard for some folks to believe Wes Clark is someone who engenders loyalty in those who know his positions and his vision for America?

When it comes to that nefarious "values thing" he's a man who has them and lives them...what's not to admire and respect?

I wanted a Clark/Kerry ticket, and would still like to see him in 2008. The GOP pool is extremely weak, and any reasonable Dem should be able to roll.

for president and long before I became a member of DU.
So yes I confess I was biased in favor of Clark long before I
became a member Of DU.
Is the writer suggesting that our vote should be based only on
information received from DU ?

i take back my retraction in another poll thread.

thanks for the idea, now i have some work to do :hi:

What retraction?

Inquiring minds want to know!

All this shows is that there are clarkies who have been here forever and clarkies who are new and clarkies in between. I'm surprised even at how many names on here I don't recognize at all, and I'm on the boards all the time.

I guess you're saying you're right that clarkies saw your post on GD and went to the other poll? I'm lost.

I lurked about a month or two before registering. :)

Are these numbers refletive DU memebers in general, or just Clark supporters?

I agree with the sediments that there is too much of this polling when it is still January 05', but the only way to know what these results really mean would be to do a comparison with supporters of another candidate who voted in a preference poll. Those who voted for Boxer might be a good choice because she received I believe the 2nd most votes so would have a relatively large sample size.

Alternatively, and perhaps more practically, one could simply run a poll of those who did not vote for Clark...o.k. I'm gonna post it.

Lurked before that...at the beginning of the draft Clark movement.

You only joined in July of 2003....1 month before me. Does that make you a real DUer....and me, just a Clarkie Invading DUer?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Me too!

I was driving my family batty with my anti-Bush rants, & needed an outlet.

It was before the primaries, & I don't post on the Clark blogs...never joined em...during the primaries, I read them sometimes.

DU Member since 12/2003.

J.

yes, I voted for Clark. I also love John Kerry and Hillary Clinton, and if he decides to join in, John Edwards. All great candidates and I'm hard put to choose between Clark and Kerry. Great democrats all.

I support all Democrats. I just support Clark a little more. :-)

http://jimsdigital.homeip.net:8080/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1983

Don't want to leave anything to chance now do we? ;-)

Julie

The board was started by DU regulars in April '04. The only people who frequent it are DU regulars.

http://chat.forclark.com/story/2005/1/23/164142/895

:toast:

Seems someone doesn't have much faith that there are regularly enough Clarkies here to make sure all polls go their way. Better round up the troops.

This thread was started to prove a point there isn't manipulation of polls here by Clarkies, just good, clean majority. Then we have another out beating the bushes to manipulate the poll. Interesting no?

Kinda sad I'd say.

Julie

Whats sad is being impugned for being politically active on-line.

(edited for spelling.)

scouring the internet, looking for Clark sites, & reading about their nefarious plans.

As a Clark supporter, I don't have the time or inclination to do that. Neither do I have the time to scour the net, looking for Dean supporters & their nefarious plans.

I don't know how you Deanies have any time left for all your DFA work & to post here at DU, dropping in on Clark threads to insult people.

It's totally amazing that you didn't object to the swarms of Edwards supporters, who came here en masse during the primaries, directly from their Edwards site, & who have since flown the coop, signalling their only interest was Edwards, not DU.

Or the influx of Kerry supporters, many of whom have drifted away.

Which leads me to the assumption that it's not about new people coming here & jamming the boards, it's only Wes Clark supporters who offend you.

Inquiring minds want to know why we threaten you so much?

Do you really believe I "scour the internet" looking for where you all launch DU attacks, stack polls and try to get people fired from their jobs? haha! No silly. Others have seen and marvelled at such and posted it elsewhere. I will admit though, I had to take a better look after a first glance. Kinda like going by a car wreck. Like a tragic scene though, one real good look is about enough, unless you're into that kind of thing.

What I find most interesting is that some of you all think of it as "activism". Yes, stacking those on-line polls at obscure DBs on the internet accomplishes so much. Ugh.

As to the swarms of puppets, trolls and operatives during the primaries, well the key word is "primaries". Most of us realize they have been long over. You may want to do same. I'm not drudging up old primary stuff, I was taking issue with current behavior. I'd be tempted to suspect you were attempting to cleverly divert attention to such but that would require duplicity and I'm thinkin' that is probably unlikely in this case, ability-wise that is.

Lastly, thanks for acknowledging all the real work many of us do. Now if we can only get all of you on-line "activists" to join our real world efforts we'll really be rockin'!

Hope springs eternal.

Cheers-
Julie

being worried that their job might be threatened and someone "trying to get someone fired from their job". Someone might be worried about the former without the latter actually happening, for example.

In my opinion, and yes I will repeat it is my opinion, there frequently is too much of a rush to believe the worst case scenarios about other people's actual intentions, and many are too eager to accept comments made in frustration as indicative of core values opinions and beliefs. It isn't healthy. We could fill 59 threads with angry reckless and/or over the top comments said either in public or in private from any and all camps one can identify or make up, and all that would accomplish would be to generate another 259 such threads in return.

And as I have expressed in the past, it is dangerous to make assumptions about the personal lives of people that you do not know personally. The fact that someone spends a good deal of time online does not prove that that person does not spend a good deal of time offline doing hands on meaningful work of one sort or another.

I certainly support your call for more of the latter.

with all the recent links provided...somebody had to do the work.

The primaries have been long over for me; unfortunately others have not moved on, or we wouldn't be having attack posts all over this board.

It's really quite sad, because many people here have similar goals, yet outreach hasn't worked. The disdain, hostility, & arrogance of some has worked against the goals I would hope we all share.

And you never disappoint, with your personal insults: "I'm thinkin that is probably unlikely in this case, ability-wise that is."

If that's all you have to offer, then I truly feel sorry for you.

The primaries have been long over for me;

Gee your previous post made it all appear to be as fresh as today's headlines in your mind.

And you never disappoint, with your personal insults: "I'm thinkin that is probably unlikely in this case, ability-wise that is."


Think about it. I post evidence of currnet, right-now poll stacking and you come whining about how unfair I am for not taking issue with goon-squads from the primaries. The other candidates were irrelevent as was the rest of what you took issue with. This did not indicate to me an in depth grasp of the discussion and it's not a real complex discussion. What would you think? If you were taking issue with present day behavior of a Deanie and they countered your posted evidence with "what about what group X did a year ago?? Huh? How come you aren't talking about that??" I mean, WTF? We're either looking at, at least in this particular instance, simplicity or duplicity, which is it?

Julie

& you're getting me very tired.

I have better things to do than argue with you about which posters came from where to vote in on-line polls, & whether they were pre-primary, primary, or post-primary Clark supporters. The absurdity of it is remarkable.

I think I'll go the beach instead.

I don't think I have so much as mentioned how long any posters have been here. Nice dance move though.

Julie

who regularly posts at a certain other DU spinoff site whose name cannot even be mentioned here, has any call to be complaining about what goes on on our little site. It is completely ludicrous and nothing but the rankest hypocracy. If you can point to anything that's gone on there that's a tenth as bad as what goes on at that other site, I would like to see it.

Yes, sometimes we let off steam when we're angry at the way our candidate and his supporters are being attacked. It was intended as a place where we could, among other things, vent in private. And yes, we intend to keep our private venting private, so you'll have to find some other entertainment. That other site should do you just fine.

No, there was never any attempt to get anyone fired from their job except in the paranoid fantasies of a vivid imagination, and in the minds of people who are willing to believe anything regardless of the actual evidence.

Maybe you would have a higher opinion of our little site if we had pictures on it of Skinner's dog in gunsights.

Oh, and the idea that we're freeping polls from that site is ridiculous. We've got maybe around 7 people who use it regularly.

on Skinner's avatar? Eeeewww - how sick.

It is pretty damned sick. But I guess it's what some people consider to be reasoned discourse in comparison with what goes on at our little site.:shrug:

Nasty goings-on. If I didn't know better I would think we were back in the primaries.

Is that you had to go and scrounge up all the Clark supporters and beat them with a whipping stick so they can go and "Clark" the polls. Also pretty sad that there is not one, but _TWO_ different DU Clark websites as Julie pointed out. There is no wonder why there is no true organization today because of mindless bots.

Sorry to say, but you know that is true.

-DD

yet assume the worst. Why? Because I support Wes Clark.

I never joined the Wes 04 blog, therefore, I don't know what they're posting. And I don't answer to anyone in terms of what I post on this board. Nobody gives me directions, or tells me what to do.

To characterize me as a bot,because you've picked up the talking points makes you a bot...group think works for no one.

Are you aware that this is how online activism works? People read something on one web site than link to it on another one where others might be interested. Do you read any of the leftist blogs? News and calls for action are cross referenced all the time.

The funny thing is that DU has so many active users that a few Clark supporters from other sites cannot make a big difference. This whole controversy is absolutely foolish. It is only another excuse to bash Clark supporters.

P.S. If you want to stay around, maybe you shouldn't start out by insulting others (calling them mindless bots) on this board.

Where would the other one happen to be? I'm sure I'd like to join it.

By the way, which site were you sent from and what manner of bot would you happen to be?

But there is but one DU Clarkie website, at least as far as I know. Of course Julie may know better. She gets around so.

Sincerely,

Mindless Bot (is this name calling?)

I certainly hope not. :hi:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I suppose you are aware of that. PM me if you want to have a sincere discussion about what has or hasn't taken place at Clark sites. But please come with an open attitude if you do so. I regret to say that I may be tied up for a day or two however.

I hope you don't mind that I continue to be supportive of Howard Dean, I realize that may be out of sync with promoting a full blown primary war replay

I know what has happened at your web sites, I read them for myself. There was a whole thread dedicated to what a meanie I am (of course the language was worse) which I got a big laugh out of. There were calls to harrass MF because she is "thinned skinned". There was a threat against someone's job.
Now the one site is hidden......... surprise surprise.

Just because it is frequented by DU regulars doesn't mean you aren't using it and the Clark campaign blog to "Clark" polls here. I believe that management has asked you to refrain from doing that in the Clark Forum here and yet, right now you have another "Roll Call" post calling out the troops to vote in this poll.

On your DU Clarkies site which you have subsequently hidden, someone called for harrasment of Dean supporters...one because she is "thinned skinned", one because he works at a New network (in fact his job was threatened).

I also got a great deal of amusement at a whole thread full of hateful comments about me. I took it as a compliment. :hi:

I see you have hidden the forum. I'd hide it too if I were you.

It's true we are trying to swing it toward Clark.

Actually I have posted at length in this thread about the limited purpose I think it serves, and if it is going to serve that purpose, actually a roll call makes sense. But we can differ on that.

There was a pretty negative comment about a Dean supporter at the Clark site, and on it's face it seemed to call for harassment. But "harassment" didn't happen, not even from the person who made the comment, though some real differences ended up being aired. That is the real point to this. Everybody does not like everybody at DU, that is clear and we all know that. and in private sometimes nasty things get said. On a similar note I disagree that anyone's job was actually threatened, but I already invited you to discuss matters like this directly with me if you choose.

That "in private" part is relevant in my opinion, and a possible bone of contention in BOTH directions. Want to tell people about the site "whose name can never be spoken?" I have no desire to go there so don't worry. Cheswick we two have not had the smoothest of relationships either, but I will not let that get in the way of the reasons why we are both Democratic Party activists. Some things are bigger than personalities. You will find me saying that I agree with you on many threads, as much as I am angry with you about some of the things you say on others. I just responded to a call at the DFA group in case you haven't noticed.

just to vote for Clark in the polls. The answers to your thread clearly show you that is not true.
Beside was are not talking about just this poll. Your question was about Clark polls in general.

You started this thread because a handful of poster called you on your habit of mining other web sites to make sure Clark wins in DU polls. It has been proven that Clark supporters do in fact do that.

Tinoire was right, your support is no larger than any other candates support. You are just better at getting the meaningless internet message board vote out.

I am certain coming here because someone left a link telling them about a poll that includes something or someone that they believe in and want to show support for is one of those reasons. Now I have a problem with that when that link is left someplace like Free Republic which is hostile to Democrats, I don't if it somewhere like a Kerry or Clark supporter Yahoo group. But that's just me.

This thread provides an opportunity, for anyone who wants to check, to find out if DU Clark supporters are mostly newly minted, which is how you seem to view it, or have been around DU for awhile and have been active at DU during their membership. Even if one assumes that a disproportionate number first came here from a link to a DU poll, which I do not, Clark supporters are an active part of DU just like Dean and Kerry supporters are, however they managed to first get here. You can check for yourself, read the messages and click the profiles. Most of the people who voted "less than a week" have not posted a message so I can't tell if they are being "honest", and neither can you, because I can't check their profile.

here in the polls.
You claim you don't. This thread proves you do.

The answers to Tom's thread clearly show that the majority of Clark supporters have been around DU for a while and didn't come here to vote for Clark in polls. Even if there are a few people who come here from the Clark blog their number is minuscule compared to the active users on DU. It is utterly foolish to discount the results of a DU poll because of this.

Most Clark supporters found "new homes" on other sites, such as Dailykos, Atrios and DU after the primaries. It is a quite natural process, considering that most of them are political junkies and activists. There's nothing sinister about it. NO conspiracy.

about what Clarkies do on their own websites. Your motives are unimpeachable, laugh.

My personal opinion is your post is nothing but an attack on me and other DU'ers. We did not publicize the site in question, it was always meant to be a private site. And I certainly had nothing to do with any threats.

I am assuming you hid the site because you can't deny what I said is true. If not why hide the forums I am talking about? My motives have nothing to do with this, nice side lateral arabesque though.

The truth would be the same no matter what my motives. I was always interested in how the results in DU polls was always so ridiculously tipped towards Clark, now I know.

You attacked me (:cry:....... ;7), you allowed organizing of attacks on Dean supporters including threatening someone's job. I'm not attacking you. I am simply bringing it to your attention that many people saw those threads.

is not for mine.

And your style of attacking anything Clark is well known to anyone who has bothered to look. Cya.

about seven regular users. Yeah, pretty big conspiracy you're onto there. I'm glad you felt complemented. I know that on the site whose name can't be mentioned on DU, lots and lots of people get complemented on a regular basis.

I'm glad you enjoy spying on private forums and have the leisure to hunt them down. If you think that thread was bad, you should hear some of the things I say to my mom in private telephone conversations.

As I mentioned in a earlier post, we use that forum for private venting, and we do intend to keep it private, so you will have to find your amusement elsewhere now. Maybe at that other forum that can't be named. Frankly, if I ran that forum I'd keep it hidden. I would be really embarrassed to be associated with it.:shrug:

I did that because a message tells a specific story beyond a potential "stuffed ballot box". This whole exercise is in reply to those who constantly whine that DU is always getting new members who come here and vote for Clark because DU is being linked to from Clark related web sites and DU polls are mentioned there. Never mind that Democratic Party activists are being turned on to DU in the process. Never mind that DU has a long established culture of wanting and welcoming new members to it. Many feel it is a bad thing to link to DU for polls, even though many also feel it is a great thing to link FROM DU to polls, it happens every day here.

You may notice that Clark is not running against anyone in this poll Julie. What do you think these "calls" are trying to accomplish? Turn out a lot of new DU members to vote for Clark to beat out the old DU members who voted for Clark?

All I am trying to roughly illustrate with this poll is whether or not all the votes Clark gets in current DU polls comes from new members flooding in or whether most of them come from long time DU members. And I only seek that because some people consistently make such a big deal out of it.

The member profile member since dates don't lie. Even more important, by posting in this thread people are showing a willingness to step out and identify themselves as being among that suspicious hoard of Clark invaders that keeps getting derisively hinted at. So this way we all have names and mail boxes. You can ask any one of us why we are invading DU if you want, if that is how you see it.

You trying to convince them otherwise is like trying to negotiate with the MSM.
It has been decided we don't exist - nothing will change this assumption.
Of course, what the rest of them do, is sainted:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
ginnyinWI  (822 posts) Sat Jan-22-05 10:42 PM
Original message
did you all see this poll?
Sorry if you did already--I was away from home since Friday morning. But it's exciting--Kerry in a landslide with DU voters.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

I will never cease to be amazed at how some people act and react. It is common practice in DU to "DU" a poll that is outside of the forum. No one ever seems to have a problem with that. The fact of the matter is that the same polls are "Freeped" as well. Unfortunately polls have way too much power to influence the average person. If they didn't, we'd have no reason to swarm them in mass attacks.

As for the polls here in DU, I made the mistake once (several weeks ago, I'm still a newbie) of posting a DU poll in the Clark section, and when a fellow clarkie told me that wasn't allowed I alerted the mods ON MY OWN THREAD. With an apology. No one closed the thread, but I've refrained from posting threads calling out other DU polls since then. As we can see from the post I'm replying to, other supporters also use this technique. Disguise it if you will as a "hey look how good he's doing in this poll" post, but it serves the same purpose.

I also post at a site for DU Clarkies, and find it hilarious how people seem to view the group. That is NOT a place where people go to find new Clarkies and bring them to DU. It's somewhat opposite of that- it is made up of people who are already regular posters at DU. Yes, there is the CCN. I don't know much about it because with all the time I spend at DU I don't have time to post there as well. It only makes sense that clarkies would want another place to be able to post. Look at all the paranoid hostility we are getting right now.

The last thing that I find absolutely amazing is that people are getting this upset over a poll that is nothing but consistent with all the other similar polls I've seen here. If you want to believe that that's what we do with every single poll here, fine. I'm tired of trying to convince you otherwise. But it's crazy.

The truth of the matter is that General Wesley Clark still has a fairly large, dedicated, and hopeful group of supporters. We hope he will run again in '08, just as many hope Kerry will do. There is no crime in that. To judge us for that or judge the work that we are doing now towards the possibility of that is just silly. People complain that Democrats don't do enough to bond together, but when some of us decide to do just that we get flamed as a group. We stand for the SAME values as you do, and we most likely all voted for Kerry as well and supported him wholeheartedly up through November 2. Trying to dig up dirt on us isn't productive for anyone and it certainly isn't helping the party. I'm ok with you supporting your candidate and I'm going to continue supporting mine as we work for the same values, so let's just leave it at that.

I like to think it is because Clark's DU supporters here have done such a good job at sharing what we admire about him and why we support him, (come to the Clark group in DU Groups here for more info on Clark if anyone is interested) but it could be nothing more than "birds of a feather flock together". So what?

Actually it could possibly have meant a teeny weeny little bit during the primary run up. Volunteers only had so much energy and time to give to a candidate and some may have been influenced by a perception that candidate A had a good chance of winning because he obviously was popular while candidate B wasn't. Actually I think very few people here would have been swayed by that type of thinking based on some unscientific DU straw polls. But for the sake of harmony, let's say I concede that point. I don't think Clark people played unfair either, or more unfair than anyone else, but you know what? Even if I am wrong there no longer is any good reason to debate that issue unless someone really is looking to cause trouble and is trying to specifically paint Clark supporters as political low life.

It's January 2005, no one is going to be influenced by a straw poll now as to who to donate money or time to, so everyone should just relax, that's what I think. No one has enough support to win the 2008 nomination at this point. It doesn't matter. But I thought this thread would allow one last orgy for questioning the "DU credentials" of Clark voters, since several frequent DU posters seem to be so fixated on that. So come on let's get it all over with here and now and then maybe we can move on to something that actually is meaningful to discuss.

What do you think these "calls" are trying to accomplish?

I don't know Tom but considering the fact that the message consisted of simply "roll call" tells me this is pretty common practice. When something is reduced to a code-like term it is used often. Perhaps old habits die hard? Some see all things in a competitive light.

You may note, I did not take issue with your poll or the idea behind it.

Julie

Actually for me "Roll Call" is a clever summation of what we are specifically doing this time. We are lining up in public so that everyone cans see, count, and inspect us. It seems to be required by some.

:hi:

on December 1st (I think) 2003.

1-Jerseycoa
2-WesDem as of 2/11/04

I was formerly Sarah4Clark04. I do not get a chance to post much. I have 3 small children, but I read DU almost every day.
Thanks for doing this Tom! :hi:

I joined DU in Jan 06th 2004 (though due to a problem with my username, modified it during the recent 'amnesty' period.

Lurked for a long time before that.

I think that what others find so difficult to understand is that Clark supporters are all still strongly networked.

Though I check in a DU a couple of times a day, I've been much too busy to 'live' here. The threads roll by so fast that I appreciate the occasional note that there is a topic that I would be interested in from DUers that spend more time here.

That includes polls.

I DON'T post in other contenders' threads, I DON'T malign other potential candidates. I DO support Wes Clark, now and forever.

I'm definitely not as eloquent as Frenchie or Tom or others who have honed their skills at debating, but I will defend his good name any time he is attacked by anyone.

It is a wonderful thing that a number of Clark supporters decided to come to DU after the election as well. That kind of committment is not easy to replicate and deeply appreciated by fellow Clarkies et al... :hi:

Before the draft clark movement, I was never involved in a campaign though I always considered myself a democrat. My extreme hate of Bush and opinion that Clark is the answer is the only thing that has motivated me to become involved in activism of any type. Before Clark got into the race, I dreaded another Bush win because I knew Kerry, Gephardt, Dean, etc. could not inspire anyone.
If you resent Clark and the Clarkies, you are shooting yourselves in the goddamn foot.
So no, I didn't start coming to the DU site until Clark became a politician. That's because regular life long politicians are crooked and do not inspire me.
I like the smart caring people at the CLARK site a lot better than the folks here, so yes, I do spend more time there than here.

Lurked quite a bit. Began posting in 02 I think.

is that Clark supporters have to defend themselves at DU....not just Wesley Clark.

Our integrity questioned, our motives suspect, our methods bordering on the criminal. What else?

Guess Clark is just such a threat that attacking often and hard appears to be the only answer in minimizing both he and his supporters.

I don't quite understand the jealousy, pettyness and contempt I continue to see among the supporters of others. Too bad...I thought we were all better than this and had bigger fish to fry!

....and it's the always same old, same old. I pretty much attempt to ignore it because it gets repetitive and tiresome.

Anyway, I've been here since around Jun/Jul '04 but have lurked here for about two years.

It is not meant to disprove whether some Clark supporters hear about DU polls from links being posted outside of DU. Personally I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with "freeping" because by definition that involves Republicans coming over to DU to pretend they are Democrats to mess with our forums threads and polls. But I have no problem with a Kerry, Dean, Clark, Kucinch or whoever supporter finding out at an outside site about a poll going on at DU regarding candidate preferences for 2004 or 2008 that includes their guy. If they join DU and honestly state who they really support, I think that is perfectly valid, and even has long term benefits for DU and hence our general movement. And of course you can't join DU just to vote in a current poll, one has to previously been a member to participate in an ongoing poll.

Think of it as free adversing for DU, something to get people in the door after which they will hopefully stick around. Unless of course you think it is a bad thing to get supporters of a specific Democratic candidate in DU's door. I don't. I don't take these polls very seriously either, they are at best a snapshot of how people who drop by DU in any given weak are feeling about whatever is being asked.

But I know that not everyone shares the position I outlined above. The key to this exercise, in my opinion, to the extent that it has any meaning, is that by posting messages individual people take form from out of the polarized mist of all of the accusations of DU poll vote stacking. Here we are. Check out our profiles. See when we joined. See how many messages we have already posted at DU. Send us PM's if you have any questions. Those of us who choose to leave messages here on this thread have nothing to hide about our involvement at DU (which isn't to say that those who don't leave messages do).

You know this almost feels like a discussion of sexually transmitted diseases. The kind of discussion that seems to assume that there are "proper" ways of contracting them, and "naughty" ways of contracting them. Some seem to think that logging on to DU first thing in the morning and seeing a poll and honestly voting in it is a proper way of participating in a poll here. Some seem to think that logging on to a Clark or Kerry site first thing in the morning and seeing a message about a relevant poll going on at DU and then coming over here, where one must already be a member to vote, and honestly voting in it is a "naughty" way to participate in a poll here. But even if one feels that way about it, check the profiles of those leaving messages. Been members since 12/03 with 29 posts total? Feel free to speculate that the only time that person comes here is to vote in a poll when alerted. That may not be the case, but feel free to speculate. Heck, PM them if you are curious, you might make a good connection. People have been speculating about origins of Clark voters on DU anyway, without any data whatsoever beyond those hot button "links" being discovered. This exercise at least provides some real people to identify Clark votes with for those who seem to think it matters.

But he isn't. So in that case, I suspect a heavy crush is the primary motivator. Nothing wrong with that.

I work for DFA with a LOT of ex Clarkies and they seem more motivated to change things than to stir up shit in cyberspace.

Maybe I'm missing something because i don't spend my every waking hour online, but I doubt it.

BTW, what's Clark up to anyway?

Clark is an effective attack dog. He's articulate and has tons of credibility. He is on TV regularaly explaining the disaster this administration is. He's on Hardball, Fox and Paula Zahn every time you turn around.

I'm usually still at the office then, and I don't/won't watch Fox at all.

Maybe he's been on Fox a lot with Hannity or O'Reilly huh? I wonder why Edwards hasn't tried this approach.

See http://www.u-wes-a.com

He's all over the place. I don't watch TV much either, but thanks to the site above I can keep up.

J.

Clark will be on Scaraborough this evening......

your intellectual integrity in pursuing the real results of a Pres poll. . . but I feel proving online poll integrity is making too much ado about nothing. Polls for 2008 are merely fantasies to soothe our weary souls and nothing more.

Since my final "poll vote" on election days haven't/won't be counted in our new age of Rovian rip-offs, I'm really embittered and resigned to the harsh reality that my online poll choices for Clark at CNN, CBS, and DU were a big waste of effort.

I'm still fuming over how the Dems convinced me to vote ABB in November 2004. So help me God, I am writing in Clark for 2008 no matter what the Dems do.


:grr:

Been involved in Democrat politics since I was 12 years old. You don't have to be DU member to be a true Democrat.

I signed up in June, but had lurked here for about a year prior to that.

People who moralize about a simple and open vote call to DU members see no problem with those who scurry around spying on other people's web groups. Which is more disgusting?

I was an independent and Bush made me mad! Wes Clark anounced and I became a democrat. I am a Wes Dem. I think I joined the DU in November 2003 as NapervilleClarkie. I changed to Tinksrival in November 2004?

after your name as it shows at the top with any post. Or you can go to your membership info area. Anyway, your profile shows you have been a member since November something (I forget) 2003.

I was right! November 2003.

P.S. I'm shy and I can't type :(

And I intend to vote for him in 2008 should I get the opportunity.
John
The other possible candidates? Can't say any of them thrill or motivate me much.

But some think all Clark supporters are just "clarkbots." Oh well.

I think there are many WesDems like me who have become democrat because of Wes Clark. My husband was Army and a republican whom supported McCain in 2000 but despises Bush. I couldn't believe it but he would have switched to Dem too because of Clark. That speaks to the caliber of the candidate Wes Clark is. Thats what the democrats are looking for, right??? A candidate who represents the party core and pulls others in? Clark ended his bid almost a year ago and he still has numerous web sights in his name with a strong group of supporters willing to continue to fight for his democratic values. I see this as a positive for the democratic party and the DU.

My husband always says that the republican party always listens to it's constituency, its core, which ever way it may be pulling they find their people's message and they stick to it. Rove has been very skilled at creating that message for them though. But on the other hand the democrats don't listen to their supporters message. They don't voice our most wonderfull democratic values into a message and stick to it as a group. Democratic leaders are all operating independently for themselves it seems. They are not listening to us and speaking for us and crafting our message to bring undecideds over. I think the democratic party could learn alot from Wes Clark and Howard Dean. I think those were the only two candidates who really listened to there core and crafted a message and stuck to it.
Democrats need a new primary system that better reflects the majority of democrats. And they need to fight for election reform!!!!!!
I am trying to be a good democrat but as Bush would say, It's hard work! . I have been writing and emailling, and going to meetings and it just feels like they either don't listen or they just ignore. Some are better than others though and I am lucky to have Senator Durbin but the DNC? I don't think they listen at all.
Wes Clark as a candidate came prepackage with my voice, my message, my values. Thats the beauty of being a Wes Dem. I don't have to keep beating my head on the wall to be heard, my values are Wes Clark's democratic values. I know he will speak for me and fight. I hope the democratic party will listen. I will do all I can to get people to listen to Wes Clarks message. His message is my voice. Nothing wrong with that, right? That's how it's suppose to be, right?

and yes...that is how it is supposed to be....and that is how it should be...and that is how it is, no matter what anyone else says about it. Go Tinksrival!

I agree that one of Clark's strengths is his appeal to moderates, and independents and even republicans. They trust him to defend the country, and thats even as he was taking Bush to task over going into Iraq, calling it a huge strategic blunder.

That's just one of the reasons I love Wes. He appeals to Dems, Republicans, Indies, any serious thinkers.

and a lurker before that. Back to mostly lurking now, with the few ocassional posts once in a blue moon. I even enabled my profile just for this poll.

In my time here, I've seen tons of new people registered after me who support Dean, Edwards, Kerry, etc. Yet none of them are forced to defend whether they are "real" DU'ers simply because of who they support. A double-standard, methinks -- and one that those with an agenda to disparage Clark embraces.

The next time one of them encourages this meme, I'd like them to ask themselves if they consider supporters of other candidates to be "fake" DU'ers (based solely upon the candidate they support/supported). I'm sure there are plenty of DU'ers supportive of candidates who are of varying registration dates. And they should note that every time they peddle this line, they're insulting every one of their fellow DU'ers who like Clark.

Double standards, hypocrisy, and broadbrushing insults are not what we need on DU. And those who use this to attack DU'ers who like Clark should be ashamed of themselves.

It's funny, cuz he wins poll after DU poll...

Sour grapes? It's only human nature. Even the holier-than-thou, lefter-than-thou people react the same way...

here since 2001. I would vote for him again, and again, and again, etc.

I've been a lurker for almost two years now. I found this site just before the Iraq war started. I was looking for a place where most of the members felt the same way about it that I did. I had never even heard of Wes Clark when I started hanging out here. I actually learned about him from reading this site.

I joined DU around the first of March last year.

Don't know what I did before then, either, BTW, for information, insight and encouragement.



(Edited to add a word.)

From your profile :hi:

I wasn't sure how to do that.

you joined on Feb of last year. When you see someone's post, just click on the next to that person's name at the top of the post. That will show you that person's profile, along with the registration date.

.

and it'll be over 18 months.

I have read an awfull lot on the DU in the past year and it's been a great tool for learning about the democratic party and the process, good and bad, and the people behind the scenes and on center stage. And of course the issues that are so important to us. Plus democrats have the best sense of humor!! But the one thing I must admit is after all I read on the DU I was under the impression that if I kept my handle as NapervilleClarkie my ideas and opinions might not be so openly considered. I thought I would be accepted as a part of the DU easier if I changed my handle to Tinksrival. I thought I could better represent Clarks values if I wasn't a "clarkie". I think it's a shame I felt that way but thats the vibe I got. :shrug:

So I'm in the 18 months plus category. :-)

Edit: Wow, post 701...that must be some kind of record, taking over two years to reach the 700 club!

Been here over a year and I'm at 14 !! But like I said I'm shy and I work in a greenhouse and can't type! Lame excuses...... I know!!

I supported Clark in the primaries and will do so again in 2008. As for the question of links from other Dem sites ... this is the only one I read. I've been reading this site for quite sometime but only recently became a "member"

Eighteen months give or take a day.
I haven't seen anything telling me to come here and vote for anyone.
If it exists, I'm unaware of it.

I imagine not all "Clark" DU voters check in at DU everyday....just like most DU members don't. Although there are not as many "checking in" as there are votes, I think that it is reasonably close enough to imagine that 75% of those who voted also responded in the thread. Pretty good turn out considering....

Hell...there are Clark supporters who I know are Clark supporters who didn't even check-in.

What this tells us is that there are a enough DU Clark supporters to have allowed Clark to win this poll....and the clear majority have been posting here over a year. Some are lurkers, some are sometime posters, others post a lot.

Conclusion in my book is that Clark just has more supporters than he is given credit for by those that wished it wasn't so. And that's just a fact.

This is going to be a long 4 years.

I don't see how any reasonable dem can argue for any other ticket.
Nuff said.