Southern Dem to other Southern Dems: Don't Elect Dean

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about this - just posting FYI:

NASHVILLE - State Sen. Tommy Kilby, D-Wartburg, has urged state Democratic Chairman Randy Button to oppose the election of Howard Dean as the party's national chairman, contending the former Vermont governor could prompt many Southern Democrats to abandon the party.

Button, who has a vote on the new national chairman, said he is "holding off on any comments or endorsements" until Monday, when the Association of Democratic Chairs will consider backing one candidate as a voting bloc. The national group is composed of chairmen and vice chairmen of all states and U.S. territories.

Kilby, who was re-elected to a new state Senate term in November, said in a letter to Button that the national Democratic Party "has become enslaved by fringe elements and special interest groups" and that situation would continue if Dean is named chairman.

"It is my greatest fear that should he be elected, many Democratic elected officials will abandon the party," Kilby said. "We, as a party, must get back to mainstream America.

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/state/article/0,1406,KNS_348_3504082,00.html (registration required)


(Edited for headline clairty)

..not some guy that is willing to sell the party down the river in an effort to appeal to "mainstream America".

BTW, 'mainstream america' is code for white males.

One of these days the Dems in charge will figure it out, we need to be DIFFERENT than the republicans not MORE like them....

Jeez...

because they just feel more comfortable with the bigoted, fascist Republicans and are just looking for an excuse.

Somehow I don't think that they are progressive in the least bit.

Honestly! That's what the problem "is!" Why are we so oppressed by the "very views" that held us up for so long?

Refer to President Roosevelt. 4 terms, during worse depression ever, war -time, began Social Security. The list goes on and on. And "he" was a Wall Street lawyer and "knew" SS was not to be placed on the bonds market. Yet, everyone loved him when prejudicial feelings in the south were still running ramped.

We must stop being intimidated of being different. After the Bushivitz crew in now, I firmly believe everyone will be ready to come back, in droves.

DEAN is UP-BEAT. Down-to-Earth. Tell's it "like it is." No wus!

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"I have no desire to belong to a party that represents the hopes and aspirations of nonprofit public interest organizations in Washington," Bredesen said in the speech. "I dream about belonging to a party that speaks to the aspirations of construction workers in Nashville and retail clerks in Montgomery and just-married couples in Pensacola."

So... see, all red states aren't devoid of real Democrats.

"...to belong to a party that represents the hopes and aspirations of nonprofit public interest organizations in Washington."

Does he mean "nonprofit public interest organizations" like the Sierra Club?, NAACP?, NARAL?, NRDC?, AU?, HRC, and the dozens of other nonprofits that represent and protect people and the planet from the government and corporations?

He's speaking code. Sounds like DLC bullshit to me -- gotta save the Democratic Party from those nasty "special interest groups" ya know(aka The People). :eyes:

You'd have to read the whole story.
He was saying Dems need to stand up for the people and not the corporations. He said Dems need to run a 50-state campaign.
He probably is DLC because he's a Southerner, but he was actually, in this case, standing up for the average citizen who isn't represented by a PAC. That's all.

the GOP awaits...

and the Hoover Institue and other right-wing think tanks.

Dean, and so did other Southern Dems.

This guy must be a James Carville fan.

I mean, it is in the South, but it's really not like the rest of the South.

I'm not arguing your point, I'm just saying that we in the South know Florida is different. It's the influx of both Cubans and Snowbirds. It's not bad, it's just different.

(Unknown Corner of Lower Alabama) or FW FL, if you prefer.

Other groups have "already" announced their support behind DEAN. Can't think of the groups, but it was just the other night and I do know one was a very large Women's Group and another was an African American group - just can't think of the exact groups at this second.

wave to me. I'm gonna have to drive up and tell your State Senator Tommy Kilby to SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!

Who the F does he think he is? This Southern Dem is only staying IF they elect Dean. Get back to mainstream America?? Sure, as soon as America gets back to the mainstream itself.

What a moran - and this is from a citizen of the state that elected Zell. So there!

and that's why I posted the story.
I know many of you aren't registered to read the whole story, but Sen. Kilby said that in a letter that "many Dems will abandon the party" if Dean is elected. He goes onto say that many are struggling with remaining as Democrats.

My question is: is it because the media keeps hyping that the Dems aren't mainstream and that's why they're losing? Or is it because the Democratic Party has given up on the South and the mid-West? If so, why can't they initiate their own Southern/mid-Western strategy?

...becuase they've lost their "moral compass", or because they are just dumbass sellouts. What, they find the GOP more to their liking? They are going to abandon the Democratic party just because of who is named as chair? Then I suggest they aren't very good Democrats.

Did he get less than 40%-45% in any of those states? There are plenty of Democrats in the Soutehrn states, and they are not running away so fast just because of who is the head of the DNC. It means a hell of a lot more to the political insiders than it does to the everyday voters in most parts of the country.

rate. It's also full of extreme religiosity.

They are so far from the mainstream that they're more like in the Dark Ages. Or feudal life in the Middle Ages.

I helped in his first election 2 years ago but told him then I was only supporting him becasuse his opponent was worse.

most won't listen to a tenessee dixecrat named tommy kilby :hi:

perhaps back during the days of segregation.

Some of the stuff dribbling out of Hotline, portends nothing good. Rumors are that the state chairs are going to endorse a candidate on Monday and that it won't be Dean. Other rumors are that labor is going to endorse Frost, and the Frosties are claiming that Dean supporters are being unfair to the Frost campaign by dwelling on ads Frost made where he associates himself with bush and hastert. I hate this stuff.

NO! Almost everyone supports DEAN! What party do I turn to if DEAN does not get the chair?

Which party???? Anywhere we can call or email our fast opinions??

:kick:

you're going to lose a LOT MORE DEMOCRATS!

What will be lost is people's ignorance, when they hear the man speak they will know that everything they were told was just a big stinky pile.
Dean will lead us out of this mess and wake our people up, all of them- r's too.

mainstream. They don't realize that they aren't.

is exactly the reason we have lost the south so badly.

Elaborate.

but it's not necessarily bad. We explain it's more moderate down here, but some on the board don't seem to accept this and push it down our throats that "we have to be to the LEFT again if we're to win" - which isn't going to work down here because of the social differences.
Yet there are several who tell us we're full of shit everytime we try to explain this.
Or, worse, they put us down because we point this out. We're not stupid down here.

I disagree with Dean on many things, but agree with him 100% on the single most important issue facing the Democratic PArty, REFORM!

That's why I always have been and always will be a Dean supporter.

eom

Reagan and the Bushies. So, they don't vote the party anyway. The South has a vested interest in maintaining the Military-Industrial Complex. Here in NW FL it is large part of the economy, about 30%.

Is that what you are trying to say? Because if you do, both you and Kilby would be wrong.

most Dems all over don't. it's very inside baseball.

how the wild leftist label has stuck to him even within the party. You'd think at least those of us who are active would know his positions in depth.

I think Dean would be good for the party. And most especially I think the perception among the grassroots that the fix was in from the old party hacks would be bad for the party.

Kiss my a**.

I am tired of hearing that we have to pander to Southern white men that are still carrying a grudge because of the civil rights movement.

Has anyone heard the phrase "it's time to move on."

Well it is time.

over the civil war.

Most of the visitors were Southerners. One just got the feeling that they resented the outcome of the Civil War.

Northern Agression". When I moved to Atlanta in the early mid-seventies I found that they didn't celebrate Memorial Day as a holiday. When I asked why, I was told that is was a Northern (Yankee) holiday. They had a different day to honor the Confederate war dead.

Sheesh!

Anyway, around here in East Tennessee, which has pretty much always been Republican and conservative, it seems to be mostly religion with a dose of racism thrown in.

exclaim here daily.

If some southernors decide to bolt if the party chooses Dan, then good riddance. Same to the lefties who would bolt if anyone else but Dean were elected.

I think the Truthout Red State Road Trip is far more telling. When asking Virginians who voted for Bush what their main issues were, they answered things like healthcare, the environment, economy, yet Bush was opposed to all thier stances!

See it here:

http://www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm

Southerners are funny about their politics. They want to be asked for their votes. If a candidate respects them enough to stop and ask them for their votes, if he/she bothers to campaign, then southerners tend to reciprocate.

In Mississippi, the candidates that go door to door and asks for votes and attends the fish fries and bbq's and county fairs and actually campaigns will generally get the most votes.

The dems ignored the red states, especially the south, and that was rude. Dems I know that voted for the weed are not dixiecrats, they just didn't see much difference between Kerry and Bush and they were familiar with Bush.

Hell, even the MS Dem party did little to campaign for Kerry in the state. Dems in MS generally don't like being taken for granted.

I back Dean 100% and so do alot of the dems I know because he has promised that he will not ignore the south.

As far as those that relive the Civil War and resent the lose, they are the loudest, not the majority. Southerners are not stupid and not all southerners are racist, bigoted, closed minded fools.

You just need to come and ask them for their support.

Wow, DU is more powerful than I thought.

the south is like a big portion of the rest of the country: they're being LIED TO by mainstream media, and the DINOs like Kilby, about what the republican party represents, and what the traditional Democratic party represents. If the southerners were being told the truth about what both parties represent, they would overwhelmingly vote for Democrats.

I live in North Carolina, and I KNOW what lies are being spread here... through churches, especially, at this point. The RNC has very actively imbedded the Southern Baptist Convention with rightwing preachers who are taking divisive politics to the pulpit....these days, in exchange for $$ from "faith based initiatives".

There are also still many southerners who are bitter because their disdain for people of color has clouded their thinking. If Dems need to become racists to get the south back, then the south can just go hang itself on its republican values....republicans value racism.

The thing is, there are a great many southerners who still vote for Democrats. You don't see all of the races for office being 99.9% votes to republicans, and .1% going to Dems. North Carolina, in fact, was ALMOST considered a "swing state" this election. So Dems haven't "lost" the south; they just haven't been able to overcome the republican propaganda machine via the churches and media.

:kick::kick::kick:

Except I think racism is everywhere and not just confined to the South.
I don't think that's as much of an issue as some here make it out to be.

and you are sticking your head in the sand if you don't see that.

Bush won in Utah, Nebraska, and Wyoming by far more points than in any Southern state.

The Midwest is Michigan, Ohio, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and adjoining states, with the possible exception of Missouri, which could never really fit in.

Anyway, they constitute surely the most conservative part of the United States, equal to or more so than the Southern states. Although it's not as much of a defining part of their culture, they have relatively homogenous populations, which I would think predisposes some to racist preconceived notions.

Socio-economic indicators show that the gaps between blacks and whites are porportionately the SAME in northern states as they are in the southern states. In NY, the same porportion of blacks earn bachelor's degrees and make over $100,000 as they do IN THE SOUTH. (Both are gaps of approx 7% and 13%). BARRIERS to equal opportunity are JUST AS BAD IN THE NORTH.

I don't think racism is really that much worse in the South anymore. I think it's THE WORST in the midwest: Kansas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Iowa, Missouri, etc

I live in NC and we have more registered Democrats than Repukes in our state. The Kerry campaign spent very little money here. Had they gotten OUR PEOPLE REGISTERED AND TO THE POLLS we could have swung the state. 1.5 MILLION DEMOCRATS voted for Kerry. There was very little effort here to GOTV.

NC WILL BE A SWING STATE NEXT ElECTION and if the Dems write off the FASTEST GROWING AREA IN THE NATION, they are fools.

As far as Dean, he was pretty popular in my area especially considering this is Edwards hometown. I'd like to know if any NC DNC committee members are on this anti-Dean kick. It sounds like this guy is lumping all Southern Dems together to strengthen his position.

Dean is my first choice for Chair. He's is right, ALL 50 STATES from the groundup!

and Indiana is very much to the North.

No one considers Indiana

Ill is also considered the midwest. The midwest is MIDDLE AMERICA. The heartland.

The Northeastern states are considered the "Northern states".

I'm curious about that epithet.

Most food was grown in the midwest. Maybe it was named the heartland due to that fact. Just as the kitchen is considered the heart of the house.

And I'm betting you don't live down here, either, so how would you know? It was much worse in Indiana, where I lived for a year, than it ever was in Tennessee.
That's just a hands-on example.

and I have lived down there. I sincerely doubt racism is worse in IN than TN. just because you say so. Pa also has a large problem with racism...but not as bad as the south in general.

You don't like me because I'm in your face about Clark.

Chill, dude. Chill.

So... once and for all - I live here, you don't. There is racism everywhere and there are parts of the country much worse than the South - most of the skinheads, for example, live in the mid-West. The Klan tried to hold a rally here last year and no one showed up except protesters.
I'm not sticking my head in the sand, but my state wasn't accused of keeping black people from voting en masse and a northern/mid-Western state - Ohio - was.
I don't know how long it's been since you lived down here - and I'm sure it's worse in Mississippi than Tennessee - but it's NOT worse in the South. It's a problem ALL OVER.

My entire father's side is in Georgia, Tennessee and parts of the Smoky Mtn side of NC... they are in actuality "Democrats," yet they were "terrified" of the 9/11 events and WMD. They could not relate w/KERRY for 1 reason only - WAR TIME! It's a fact, historically.

Here in Maryland, we joke w/ourselves because we've been the Mason/Dixon line since the Civil War. Only a few counties are RED, and they are very un-mainstream here. My family in the south don't care who get's the DNC, it's who runs for President that counts.

Again, is there a website out here to voice our concerns over this issue if Monday is the day DEAN could loose the chair????

Not quite true...but it is true that the corridor between Washington and Baltimore more than makes up for what most of the state, county wise lacks. Montgomery, Prince Georges, Howard, Baltimore, and I believe Anne Arundel all went blue.

And what is it specifically about Howard Dean that would cause so many "Democrats" to leave? Why are they struggling to be Democrats as it is?

I mean, he's a little too conservative for my tastes, though I'm fully willing to compromise. The DNC leader doesn't have to be ideologically identical to me.

If the Democratic Party wants to rebuild on a populist, working people foundation--the only one upon which it has won in modern times--it must REJECT Kilby's bad advice.

that is fighting the Florida Referendum that approved by 71% raising the minimum wage to $6.15? Oh, he must be a REAL Southern Democrat.

I have posted this in a few places in hopes that many will get a chance to hear it.

www.depthaudio.com/Dean.htm

Enjoy

we lost Jesse helms to the republican party- thanks to "northeastern liberals" we did just fine!

As Johnson had wisely foreshadowed.

eom.

And forty years later, the Democrats still represent the party of blacks and minorities, and the Republicans still upholds the social status quo, and bears a base of white men who feel disenfranchised.

Martha Dixon, Arkansas DNC Committeewoman
Don Beyer, Former Lt. Gov. of Virginia and Chairman, Kerry-Edwards Virginia Victory '04
Patsy Arceneaux — Louisiana DNC National Committeewoman
Johnnie Patton - Mississippi DNC Committeewoman
Jimmie Farris - Tennessee DNC Committeewoman
Wayne Dowdy, Chair of the Mississippi State Democratic Party
Jay Parmley, Chair of the Oklahoma State Democratic Party
Mame Reiley, Chair of the DNC Women's Caucus and Virginia DNC Committeewoman

More endorsements here:
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/endorsements.php

Dean will do well in the south. There is no gun nut baggage, he's for a balanced budget, he is EXCELLENT at difusing the guns/gays/god freaks because he calls them out on it and is eloquent about the distractions it causes.

Lots of us southerners love Dean. Those that don't can take a chill pill.

smoke outta his ass cause he's a :scared: cat or a dino?!

I'm glad they're is at least one fellow Tennessean that endorses Dean.

Scott Maddox, Chair of the Florida State Democratic Party
"I am proud to tell you that I, and every DNC member from Florida are endorsing Governor Howard Dean to be the next Chairman of our party.

He understands that we won't win Florida unless we try to win all of Florida — and build strong Democratic Party organizations next door in Alabama and Georgia, too. He understands that we can't win unless we show up to fight in every race, in every county, in every state. He knows that we need to engage local communities to build our party from the ground up. And he has the experience to do it. I would be honored if you would join me in supporting Gov. Howard Dean."

Diane Glasser, Vice-Chair of the Florida State Democratic Party

Allan Katz, Florida DNC Committeeman

Raul Martinez, Florida DNC Committeeman

Chuck Mohlke, Florida DNC Committeeman

Janee Murphy, Florida DNC Committeewoman

Joyce Cusack, Florida DNC Committeewoman

Mitchell Ceasar, Florida DNC Committeeman

Terrie Brady, Florida DNC Committeewoman

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/endorsements.php

There is plenty of southern support there and there is more which has not yet been posted.

PS...... with the exception of a few counties in south florida, florida politics is very much "the south".

don't put words in my mouth.

I still know in the primaries, which was my earlier topic of conversaton, that Dean didn't have much voter support.

I don't know WHAT his support is in the South among the party elites in voting for DNC chair.

I don't keep up with that much. I posted this because it was on the front page of my local newspaper and I thought it would be of interest.

you were all over every thread about Dean telling us how he had not support in the south.

Because you all chided me for not staying on the topic of DNC chair.

I acquiesed and said that I did not KNOW whether he had support of the party's elite - same thing I just said here - but that he didn't have much voter support.

I think YOU'VE forgotten what I said.

For the record, I have NEVER bashed Dean - I've said I don't think he could win a national election, but I have no problem with him in as chair.

lol

dumb remark that identifies the elected officials who are dragging us to ruin with the "mainstream" that mainly doesn't even vote and probably holds their nose and wishes with crossed fingers when they do for the likes of Button.

Fine. So who is their stunning mainstream champion of brain and competence and skill? The proof is in the puddingheads. the only antagonizing that I see happening overtly is claiming people interested in unions, civil rights, voting and freedom are demonized by our "leaders".

Disgusting. Sewer mucking. Save it for the GOP. They are the pros.

I thought the last one went extinct in Ronald Reagan's reign.

Ever heard on Bill Clinton? John Edwards? Al Gore? Bob Graham? Even in the "reddest" Southern states, 40% or more of voters are Democrats.

I watched a bunch of southern elected democrats shift party affiliation to republican in 1992 in the wake of Texas' redward shift, and largely they did it just to hold on to their jobs. If southern dems are so naturally "red" that they are really at risk of jumping parties if the prez nominee isn't some Zellout, let 'em go.

Hell, if that's our true southern face, let's just show it to the world.

Good riddance.

Maybe if enough of the sniveling panderers like Tommy Kilby leave, the Democrats will grow a spine and start winning elections again.

"{controlled} by {liberal voters} and {non-corporate interests}"

There are plenty of Southern Dems who disagree, including a lot of prominent ones. The fact that Harold Ickes (Clinton aide and Hillary PAC chair) endorsed Dean today, not to mention people like Maddox from Florida, shows it is far from a uniform opinion among Dems. I lived in Nashville for a decade, and while they might have had reservations about Dean for pres, DNC is a different story. Not to mention that McAuliffe is from NY, in case people forget. The South doesn't have a uniform reaction to Dean. Hence the split among endorsements from prominent people.

:D

That's my prediction. The real ones will anyway. There are always a few who are on the verge of switching parties anyway all of the time. They've been defecting for decades, this won't make a difference.

The Republicans love to whip up hatred of Bogeymen, but Dean will never even make their top three so it makes no difference if he's Chair. The Republicans will keep screaming Ted Kennedy till they are red in the face no matter who our DNC Chair is. They will also whip up hate about both Clintons. And of course whenever the Democrats are actually running a candidate, that person will be in their cross hairs front and center.

To be honest all that Dean "scream" flak has actually softened Dean's public image, not hardened it. He gets to make fun of it just like everyone else, it makes him more of a flesh and blood person. Dean will speak up for the South and folks down there will appreciate it. That's my prediction.

I think he scares the hell out of the Republicans, because Dean's the one who could really break their hold on the South.

I agree that Kilby's wrong ("fringe elements and special interest groups" indeed) and also that he was wrong to write that letter. No matter what he believes, it's really counterproductive to make a pronouncement like that.

It's divisive, inflammatory, and potentially a self-fulfilling prophecy. No matter what his personal beliefs are, imo he shouldn't be making statements and writing letters bashing any Democrat or telling others they might have cause to leave the party. It's wrong in both its content and as a tactic.

Dividing Democrats is their favorite technique! And this letter is so divisive, it might as well have been dictated by a Thug, you're right.

I was thinking those kind of things, too, when I read about Southerners not liking Dean. Wait till they get to know him a little better..and not believing all the hype that preceeds him.

and love Dean. I got to know him in Nancy Pelosi's daughter's DNC primary documentary and really liked him. Only one that ran I didn't really care for much was Liberman. I think Dean will be a great DNC chairman. I think the southern dems are still around and strong. I'm in TN and I read an article from a Jacksonville, FL paper and it was talking about Beredesen and he had an approval rating of 70% and people were asking him if he was running for President. Last weekend I was listening to RadioLeft and the host made a very good point dealing with Dean. He said how whenever the dems do something and the republicans whine and squeal and make a lot of noise then that means we're doing something right. Look at what happened, for example, with the scream. That was so silly. The republicans are afraid of Dean and I think that's what we need. Someone who makes them squirm in their panties.

Did he say he was running?

He first has to prove he can pull some miracles out of his arse here.

Right now, the more progressive Dems are pissed as hell at him for the hardball he's playing with TennCare. If you thought the hard left was attacking Dean in the '04 primaries, it would be nothing compared to what they'd say about Bredesen. The TennCare situation needs to play out.

Imagine a strong pro-2nd Amendment voice in the party. You're telling me Southerners wouldn't like that?

Dean is exactly the kind of guy a Southerner would LIKE. He's not a bullshitter.

Dean is going to open up this party big time.

Men like Randy Buttons have already abandoned the true base of the Democratic party.

"the former Vermont governor could prompt many Southern Democrats to abandon the party."

Kilby did.

Randy Buttons refused comment.

Just thought I'd correct this, because Randy happens to be a heckuva guy!

:hi:

:)

BTW, Brooklyn is one of my most favorite places on earth. Whenever I got to NYC, I have to take the F Train over and eat at Henry's End or see the nice Irish bartender at Sparkey's. :)

Love, love, love Brooklyn!

him for the state party position.

Randy Button does have to walk a fine line here because of the different factions of Democrats but there's no way he'd say something like Tommy Kilby did.

I haven't given to the DNC since before Election 2000 when they left Gore out to dry by himself. If Dean comes in, so will my money and LOTS more from other folks, too.

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BWWWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


'Scuse me for a minute, I have to clean the spittle off my monitor now.

Seeing as how the Southern Delegation has backed Dean for chair.
But some people really have an axe to grind about Dean no matter what

NOTHING but a smear operation rivaling Karl Rove's. Sorry Howie, that sleazy crap you're peddling is fine for pancakes but let's keep it out of our politics.

Smear ? who? when? please quote or cite one "smear" Howard Dean has performed , or an example of a "smear operation" in action.

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I'm just curious. It's just that every one of your posts attacks Dean.

and 2) he's sure as hell not going to let anybody else get it, either. So DNC Dean = sure defeat in '08.

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and if he wanted no one else int he D party to win, why didn't he do something like run as a third party candidate? that would have sunk kerry for good?

"It is my greatest fear that should he be elected, many Democratic elected officials will abandon the party," Kilby said. "We, as a party, must get back to mainstream America."
:eyes:

know why he says he's a Democrat since he seems to be against everything we stand for. And he represents Morgan County which is one of the poorest counties in Tennessee, very high unemployment, and full of religiosity.

Fringe Elements? Special Interest Groups? Mainstream America? These sound frighteningly like Right Wing talking points. Dean has my backing.

We all know it was the democratic establishment that quashed Dean's presidency bid.

Good thing there's no entrance exam for this board is all I can say.

Dean helped us LOSE????

Could you say something MORE ridiculous?

Dean worked his ass off for Kerry. I don't think he's "owed" The chairmanship, but he's certainly the best equiped among the group to run the party.

Nickolasj/julienborger/UncleHo_ho can't get over it.

One specific candidate....sounds like a DLC policy to me.

whole campaign, fanatically hyping Kerry's so-called "IWR" vote (which was actually an authorization to use force) on every frickin' website in the universe.

Gee, now why would he do that? Because he didn't want Kerry getting in the way of his '08 run.

And why would he be acting like a sleazy politician? Because he is one.

because that's a take that can only be arrived at in the dark with no input from the real world.

WTF are you talking about?

PM me your address, I will buy you some flashlight batteries, if that's what you're hinting at.

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I'm serious...although Lieberman's funnier...

Look I don't like Joe's policies but he's a hell of a lot better guy than infomercial man.

DO NOT TRIGGER ANY HATE FLASHES

OH my God, is that a weapon under that raincoat?

"DO NOT TRIGGER ANY HATE FLASHES"

"OH my God, is that a weapon under that raincoat?"


Repeat, repeat, repeat!

I think Kos threw him off his site too.

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Oh and did Kos put those assine words of explantion in Kerry's mouth (I voted for it before I voted against it). Did Kos keep Kerry from mounting any kind of response (forget about effective) to the Swift Boat Ads for several weeks? I don't think he did.

I didn't realize however, that Iowa was " the presidential race"

They were slobbering all over him because they thought he would take down Kerry. Dean had them fooled, but then, some people are just gullible.

Present company excepted, of course!

the really love people the take down like the did him. Incidently how did Kerry do in the general election again? Dukakis ran a great primary race too.

Kerry didn't. Therefore Clinton did better than Kerry did. Now would Clinton have still won without Perot, maybe not? But Clinton won the White House which is the object of the game. Kerry is like a football team which gains more yards than its opponent but loses anyway.

of letting him run anything, even if his intentions were pure, which they're not.

Bob Strum? Rendell hasn't been elected anywhere out side of PA and hadn't been elected anywhere out side of Philly when he became chair. Brown hadn't run for anything that I know of. Romer only won races in Colorado.

unless you are just plain dumb. BTW Dean won 7 election in Vermont and that primary after he was out of it. That is a very impressive record especially since, unlike Clinton, he had to win a majority of the votes each time. In 2000, he won that despite being the first US Governor to sign a civil unions bill and despite being outspent by his opponents.

If a bunch of southern DINOs pull some shenanigans to bolster the ABD movement, thousands of actual WORKING ACTIVISTS, and working PARTY MEMBERS will be GONE. This could break the party for the next fifty years.

and all for some southern "democrats" who probably don't even vote reliably.

Fuck this clown.

Its time to cut our losses with weak collaborationist southern Dems. They are dragging us down anyway. If you can't support real Dem ideals in the south, then make way for someone who can.

"We must open our party and allow people who are pro-life, pro-gun and pro-traditional marriage to have an active role in developing our platform and message," he said. "The election of Howard Dean as chairman will be disastrous to any future election successes. We must change course or cease to be a national party and most likely a party at all."

This would throw overboard pro choicers, gays and gun control supporters. If that is what the party wishes to do, so be it. But don't expect people in the above categories to even think of voting for, much less working for, the party.

Is more pro-gun rights and has a better rating from the NRA than Clinton or Kerry.

I think Southerns will like Dean allot.

Sorry, no other way to put it.

Moreover, he uses typical right-wing framing terminology. Pro-traditional marriage?

Excuse me, is there anybody here who is opposed to "traditional marriage"? I haven't heard of any groups that are actively trying to stop heterosexuals from marrying, although I suppose it's not surprising that authoritarian personalities attribute their own MO to others.

including the entire DNC delegation of Florida and the DNC chair of Mississippi--and one other southern state which I can't recall at the moment. Dean will do ok in the south.

I really do wish they would stop the stop Dean movement. I really don't understand what they are afraid of.

then what happened to Congress (Democrat BC, Republican now), state governorships (Democrat BC, Republican now), state legislatures (Democrat BC, even now incidently that even is an improvement over the depths of Clinton). The fact is Clinton has a great amount of personal charisma which makes everyone think he is a political genius. But the proof is in what his political insticts have wrought without his charisma to boost them.

Excerpt from Former President Bill Clinton's library dedication speech (11/18/04):

I want to say this; this is important. I don't want to be too political here, but it bothers me when America gets as divided as it was.

I once said to a friend of mine about three days before the election -- and I heard all these terrible things. I said, "You know, am I the only person in the entire United States of America who likes both George Bush and John Kerry, who believes they're both good people, who believe they both love our country and they just see the world differently?"

What should our shared values be? Everybody counts. Everybody deserves a chance. Everybody has got a responsibility to fulfill.

We all do better when we work together. Our differences do matter but our common humanity matters more.

So I tell you we can continue building our bridge to tomorrow. It will require some red American line drawing and some blue American barrier breaking, but we can do it together.

He was against the war from the begging and Hillary was for it. I can see how this would be a threat to her run in '08. But if democrats do not run a candidate that was clearly opposed to the Iraq war we mine as well forget about the Whitehorse for a long time.

on Iraq. Unless of course I'm overlooking Dean's Senate voting record?

and that Ghandi had no stance on Indian independence. One can take a stance without a political office.

Big difference.

Those thousands of gay couples who got Civil Unions in Vermont sure didn't have any thing acted upon. The fact is Dean did act on this beliefs. That is the problem people like you have with him that he did what Kerry knew in his heart he should have done. As much as I didn't like Lieberman's position on the war at least I knew he honestly believed it. Kerry knew better but went ahead and voted like he did. Had Kerry acted on his beliefs he might be President today.

I have no doubt about it. The only reason the right was able to paint him as a flip flopper was his vote on Iraq. I know of several people who voted for Bush and told me that the democrats would have a better leg to stand on if they had ran a candidate that did not vote Yes on Iraq. I tried to explain that Kerry did not vote yes on Iraq but they just didn't understand the difference.

he can't, and he won't. But that's not gonna stop him from taking down the whole party trying. Why you guys haven't figured that out yet, I don't know.

Edwards or Clark becoming chair (Clark barely won OK and Edwards won South Carolina (his birth state)). It should be noted that both are considered probable candidates in 08.

carried on a smear campaign against Kerry even after dropping out of the primaries. Deano has STILL not let up!!

and you didn't provide any. Dean not only worked his ass off for Kerry he contitually asked his supporters to do the same. It is nothing but a lie that he smeared Kerry. He even went on TV defending Kerry's indefensible vote.

I will search your name and Dean and see what I get but if you think I should have to slog through dozens of threads just to find it you are nuts. BTW I have this thing called a job and before that I had a thing called a computer virus. Believe it or not, you aren't the center of the universe.

but it should be noted that I just searched with your name all the active threads in GD Politics and not one of the over a dozen that were listed, that is 0, had anything like that proof in it. In short, your claim that you "have provided this evidence every day for a month" is not factual.

I did as you asked and found the thread.

First, unlike your statement this thread was from Jan 16th which isn't today, yesterday, or the 9 days before yesterday. So that is 11 days in which you didn't, as you stated on this thread "provide proof of Dean trashing Kerry via websites".

Second, of the two websites you linked one didn't even work for me and the other has no apparent conection to Dean. If anything it is either a site trying to be neutral in the DNC races (I conclude that by going to the links section) or maybe a pro Rosenberg site given his name being first in their poll. While I agree that the website should be straight forward as to who runs it, or at the very least provide some way to ask them, there is no, as in not a scintilla of, evidence that Dean has anything at all to do with this site.

Third, you clearly made it sound like Dean was doing this DURING the campaign. Even if he were responsible for the second website, the one I couldn't even get to work, it was trashing Kerry's campaign AFTER the election. That is an immense difference.

Finally, you were asked close to a dozen times in that thread to show any connection between Dean and either of those sites and you did no such thing. In point of fact, your claimed that you were waiting for results from a search and would post that. You didn't. Do you have them now? (You implied it would be a matter of days in that thread).

NO. The link to Dean is clear from the title, as I explained over and over and over and over in the thread. Incidentally that's one reason I let it drop--I realized that no amount of evidence will convince anybody dumb enough to write a check to Dean Popeil that they got suckered. Well, you did.

p.s. he was paying KOS during the campaign, among others. That came out AFTER I posted the thread.

What connection does that have to Dean? Did he copywrite those words when I wasn't looking? When I tell my kids to stand up in class do I owe Dean a royalty? As to your other point. The absence of proof of an alternate theory isn't the same as proof of yours. I don't have to show you the origins of the pacific ocean to disprove the idea that death rays from Mars created it.

This is what I was talking about. If you guys simply refuse to believe the evidence, there's not much I can do about it.

stand up Democrats. I honestly don't recall that being one of his stock phrases. He talked about the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party but the only use of stand up I recall is as a verb (ie Democrats should stand up to Bush or for liberal values). He also used the phrase "You have the power". But I don't recall stand up Democrats appearing at all in his writing or his speeches.

it was black since it was nighttime. I can be a snippy ass too.

stuff in there. Can you repost a link to the thread? Thanks if you can.

John Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Bill Clinton
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Ann Richards
Max Cleland
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
James Carville
The Democratic Texas Legislators who walked out in 2003 to stall the Republicans’ partisan redistricting plan.


Not only doesn't it include Dean, but aside from any Democratic legislators who may have endorsed Dean for President (I honestly don't know if any did or not) not a single person mentioned endorsed Dean for anything aside from Gov of Vermont (I am presuming that Clinton did and that both Richards and Carville might have endorsed Dean for Gov of VT). If this is some sort of Dean cabal it is a really well hidden one. And BTW, it should be noted that even if Dean were responsible for this site it doesn't do what you claimed here that Dean was doing (namely criticise Kerry's campaign). If one of my geometry students submitted a proof as shoddy as this one, he or she would be getting an F.

presuming that none of the legislators are dead, none of the people, well over a dozen if you count the legislators have endorsed Dean. Just curious do you even bother reading beyond the first word of a website?

which is simply an excuse to harvest emails for campaign purposes under wholly false pretenses. Hence the thread title.

what I am disputing is Dean's alleged link to it. To my knowledge he had no connection with the dead Democrats.

There's no "evidence" at all there. Only conjecture. Your suppositions about "Dean's" websites are utter tripe.

Did you just decide to ignore that?

Where's that information you were supposed to report back with?

Now who's spinning, Uncle? What's wrong, those sites intercepting brain waves? No site can "harvest" any information except your IP address. If they have your name and mailing address and email, it's because YOU GAVE IT TO THEM. Dig?

:tinfoilhat:

So who's the sponsor and what are they doing with the personal information they're harvesting?

I can't phathom what a political consultant might want with email and physical addresses of Democrats. No wait, yes I can.

I supplied the answer. Case closed.

Those sites are not "harvesting" information. "Harvesting" can only happen without your knowledge. The only information they can get is your IP address, which tells pretty much nothing. Unless you choose to give them your personal information, they cannot contact you. Case closed.

Strange idea, I know. But I've seen stranger things right in this thread.
:tinfoilhat:

Edited to add: Howard Dean doesn't own the internet(s), you know. Al Gore does.
:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

Go ahead, make my day, Uncle.

:tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat:

BTW, I have a website — non-political — and no one but me sponsors it. I also used to own and run a web-based mail-order business; no sponsors. And I've been a consultant, and I've built websites that were sponsored only by their owners.

Now who could that be?

:tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat:

Who sponsored "Americans for jobs and health care"?

to sell to paying clients. Getting them this way makes them his property and gives him the ability to sell them to many paying clients. Getting them on behalf of someone else allows someone else to sell them. I am not saying I know he is working for himself but it certainly isn't impossible to think he is.

the link to the original thread by the way:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1493112&mesg_id=1493112

To date, the liar who originated that thread never proved his assertion. The burden of proof is beholden upon the one who makes the assertion. The burden was not met. The thread is bullshit.

When one makes spurious and unfounded accusations, it is not beholden upon others to prove a negative...it is beholden on the ACCUSER to prove the assertion.

It is very evident that you're not familiar with forensic debate. Perhaps you could call your hero, John Kerry.

I listed that websites authors and organizational links in that original thread; they are connected to several groups in DC but DFA and Howard Dean are not among them.

The whole purpose and point of the thread was as specious as what was suggested there.

make it true.

Otherwise, retract the allegation.

did you even bother to read either of our posts or just type?

Sorry for the confusion

It was not a "war resolution." It provided executive authorization for the discretiounary deployment of forces as a negotiating strategy to enforce sanctions.

"senate approves Iraq war resolution; CNN

Russ Feingold; "Why I opposed Bush's Iraq War Resolution

yourcongress.com;I raq war resolution

Dennis Kucinich; "vote no on Iraq War Resolution

Are these people all Deanies? Spin away.

The only thing I can think of it will somehow hurt her chances in '08.

Dean is perceived as Anti War amongst democrats and the general public. That is the only reason that I could think of as to why the Clintons see him as a threat.