I Find the Comity Among the Clark, Edwards, Kerry Camps Fascinating

The vast majority of those candidates' supporters here are very friendly and respectful of one another, and of their respective candidates.

My suspicion is that for various reasons, whether legitimate or illegitimate, Howard Dean acted as a lightning rod for the negative vibes among supporters of Clark, Edwards and Kerry. Now that Dean's doing worse than he was before, there's a sense of almost palpable relief and hope, without the burning need to find another target, at least not yet.

This comity gives me hope for the Democratic Party in the fall. Hopefully all of the candidates can wage a good primary battle without going too negative on anyone else, and maintain this level of comity throughout the rest of the spring and summer, and into the fall.

I salute supporters of every candidate who are helping to keep it clean and civil, and rebutting stupid attacks on all of the candidates, not just their own.

:grouphug:

DTH

1st. Dean has attacked every other candidate and everyone associated to them. According to him, we are all cock roaches, republican lite, and Bush* enablers.

2nd. His arrogant act of perceived inevitability has made everyone else want to fight against it. And they did.

This might have been true if we Kerry or Edwards or Clark were in that positions. But Dean has made himself so unlikeable, it's no surprise this is playing this way.

Finally, Clark, Kerry, and Edwards are similar in some ways. They are all likable.

However, I agree with the quote Bartcop has up on his website that says, win or lose, Dean deserves credit for standing up to Bush and for giving the rest of the Democrats a spine.

all Democrats who are not him are "Repug-Lite". No Mr. Dean, I am not like you, I do not agree with many of your policies as governor and I am NOT a Republican. I am a Democrat.

And yes, Dean attacked us first.

Now that Dean is not so hot, I have sympathy for him again.

Even I do, for him and his supporters who have worked themselves to the bone for him.

especially its self-absorbed notion that it was soemthing other than just another campaign. in fact it wsaa inherently weak becasue it was a niche candidacy.

note i use the past tense in referring to the dean phenomenon.

It's very entertaining.:D

:grouphug:

bicentennial_baby, hope you don't mind the play on words. I'd have no problem voting for any of the above mentioned. :)

Same here, although losing my Senator Kerry means he'll be replaced with a Repub by our governor, which would be horrible. :(

will replace Kerry with himself - as Mitt would love to be a Senator.

Where in MA are you - I am in Boston.

In Western MA, Greenfield to be exact. The crossroads of Rt. 2 and 91!

Great area - I know it well, used to live out west - but south (near Springfield).

if my memory holds. :)

and Exit 24 if you wanna go to the Whately Diner!

Clark, Kerry or Edwards...

They are all fine candidates I would be proud to vote for.

It will make the Dean/Clark conflict look like paddycakes.

DTH

If Dean is out of contention anytime soon, expect Clark to attack Kerry hard and fast. Oh, I forgot! Clark is already attacking Kerry!

Clark hasn't attacked anyone, not even Dean. He's not going to go negative on Kerry.

DTH

If Satan cast out Satan than how would his kingdom stand Substitute Al From for Satan and you get the idea......

Clark is NOT attacking Kerry.
He is defending Kerry.

Now it's accurate.

I'm gonna grab some popcorn and watch when the long knives come out.

Big bowl here.

VERY kind words Clark had for Sen. Kerry on C-SPAN. He seems to genuinely like and respect him.

I don't see that happening.....

Don't know what you are hearing - I watched it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=157403&mesg_id=157403

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=158929&mesg_id=158929


on edit - I guess they were not all Cpsan - but the point is the same.

In the second one (which is CSPAN) - read all the threads.

The first one is about Clark responding to a dig by Bob Dole. I didn't talk so much as a insult to Kerry as much as Clark responded to Dole's dig. Dole was very low.

I think Clark's statements today reflect his true thoughts about Kerry - and Kerry was complimentary of Clark today as well.

So, end of story.

Obviously, Clark, Edwards and Kerry supporters support those candidates because they feel that they are better overall candidates than Dean. For a while, it certainly seemed like the Dean juggernaut was unstoppable and many had lost hope of fielding the "best" candidate (in their opinions, of course) to beat George Bush.

Now, of course, all three camps have realistic hope that their candidate can win the nomination. Hope changes attitudes.

I also think it's very possible that supporters of those three candidates share more in common with each other than they may with Dean supporters. Just a wild theory, but it seems to fit in many cases.

stuff is gonna happen i bet ;p

I hope the good general cans his ass soon.

I can't stand any of them.

DTH

if so it was bad advice

As for whether it was good or bad advice...I guess we'll have to see how the rest of this primary season turns out, first.

DTH

I want that bad boy on our side. We just have to keep him in the smokey backroom where he belongs.

And test firing has happened. And stuff will happen in politics. But if we can and for as long as we can, we try to remember that we have had good relations and hope to again. The winner is going to be the nominee and the losers will be the supporters of the nominee. We should keep that in mind so we don't end up with more of the "Anybody But" crapola and more burned bridges when crunch time comes. Especially, I have no patience with other campaigns throwing stinkbombs trying to bring on the hard times prematurely. We know they are coming and we are ready for them.

This little lecture isn't for you in particular, Meow Mix, I just started out on your post and went from there. I appreciate your little stinkbombs ;)

Truly a mumaso if I ever saw one. /sarcasm

Dean would have been an electoral disaster, IMO. So Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt really did their party a big favor in Iowa. (And Kerry and Edwards also did themselves a big favor, of course.)

Dean's not out of it yet, but if he comes in 3rd or worse in NH, he will be.

DTH

As the fights involving Dean.

DTH

Is that precise enough? :D

DTH

LMAO at this part of the thread.

:yourock: DTH

It could easily get brutal, but before it gets to that, the various campaigns and supporters are trying to lay a ground of civility, partly out of respect, partly out of genuine good feeling, and partly because we all know it's what happens in politics. In the past couple of weeks things could have turned very ugly, but except for a few bumps, we have managed so far. When we stop managing, you'll know it.

agree, we all know this is for the big prize. But we won't let others tell us who or when to not like or support another candidate. Things are going to get ugly, but we as supporters can spin it or let it go. I'm not going to get caught up in the little stuff, if it's a "lie" against integrity or ethics or honor..yes. But if it within normal practice...not a peep. :)

:pals:

I have. ;-)

Why would dean do any worse than kerry et.al.? Does anybody remember 2002? Bush Lite did not sell very well, and of course it wouldn't. Bush Lite is basically a validation of Bush, i.e. imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If it weren't for dean, kerry and others would still be kissing bush's butt worse than before. There's a reason why dean was way ahead until people started overthinking it and decided to make the "smart" choice. Hey, triple amputee war vet Max Cleland went down as not being pro-war and patriotic enough; Kerry will suffer the same fate because he is playing the game by bush's rules.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=51397

DTH

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeaeeaeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaauhhhhhhhh !

... during his live NH town hall meeting, still on C-SPAN now. He said that New Hampshire voters are free to make up their minds, but that he wanted to emphasize that John Kerry is a great patriot, a great American, and a friend of Wes.

DTH, I couldn't agree more with your post. I just couldn't!!

:grouphug:

had respectful words for Clark. These are grownups. They know what they're about. As their supporters, we should follow their lead, no matter what nastiness the press pulls or trouble Dean supporters hope to foment.

Funny, I've never noticed it.

DTH

Funny, I've never noticed it.

DTH

when he beats Clark for 3rd place in NH. ;)

:eyes:

It may, but I don't think so. I see Kerry, Edwards, and Clark on top with Dean fourth, thus ending his bid for the nomination.

Clark and Edwards will probably take southern/sunbelt states.

your not going to get the discord you think.

I am very good at knowing a wolf in sheeps clothing.

'cause the ass is hanging out of a few of the costumes around here.

I would just as eagerly vote for Kerry or Edwards as I plan to vote for Clark. We can't go wrong with any of the three.

The relief I feel is knowing that Dean won't be our nominee. Hopefully, his actions won't sabotage the whole party's chance for a win in the general.

Howard Dean became something of a lightning rod.

Kerry, Edwards, and Clark have been my top three since Sept. There are differences, of course, which is why my top pick remains Kerry.
Edwards and Clark are both candidates that I could support with enthusiasum, however, should they get the nod.

I hope the remainder of the campaign stays above board.


:thumbsup:

You're probably right about our assessment of Dean. But I really like these three, Kerry, Edwards, and Clark. They all embody the kind of Democrat I like.

I think that between Kerry and Edwards supporters, there's a sense of shared success. It was almost a tie in the Iowa caucuses, but Kerry and Edwards together surged to the top and carried the day (if you don't like Dean). And Clark supporters here have been so kind, I always read these kind messages of congratulations and I look to the side - there's always that Clark avatar thingie.

Curious.

Please elaborate? Thanks!

DTH

You just wrote the following:

"I Salute Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt for Taking Down Dean in Iowa. Dean would have been an electoral disaster, IMO." and

"So Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt really did their party a big favor in Iowa."

You won't be endearing much empathy from Dean supporters with that, DTH.

"a disaster"?

"taking him down"?

Dean will be around for the entire Primary run. He has millions and organization. He's not a quitter.

He will arrive in Boston will a lot of delegates. He has the most right now, by the way (super delegates count, too).

Trashing Dean who has brought hundreds of thousands of new people into the Democratic Party and raised millions in small donations would hardly be in keeping with the "comity" your thread calls for.

I've been a delegate to our national conventions. You don't want a pissed off large contingent of people who feel they have been maligned.

Dean is a reality for the Democratic Party now to face.

He is not going away and he will have a large and vocal contingent in Boston.

That's not bravura on my part, just the way it is.

Comity.

I've made no secret of my dislike for Dean here, not for at least a few weeks.

I value honesty very highly. I don't like Dean at all. But I love many of his supporters.

I acknowledge some will not be able or willing to recognize the distinction that I make, but it's there nevertheless there, and sincere.

I also acknowledge that my words will not endear me to many Dean supporters, but at the same time, I respect Dean supporters' loyalty and intelligence enough not to bullshit them about how I feel, or post up grating "abandon Dean, join Clark" threads while pretending to make nice. (And I'm not saying that's what others have done, I'm sure they've been sincere, but that was just how I thought those threads would be perceived.)

DTH

and respects them and their supporters and would be happy to support either against W in the Nov election. i do not feel that way about dean who makes extravagant claims about the significance of his campaign and who behaves as if he is the presumptive nominee.

and OUTSTANDING supporters.

Democrats are the best.

They're all good people.

I believe you reap what you sow. And since the three candidates have been relatively positive towards each other, their supporters respect each other. Scorched earth tactics are in no one's interest.

I remember AP, an Edwards supporter, standing up for Clark in a smear thread started by two Dean supporters. And I remember Clark supporters and Kerry supporters refusing to attack each other when egged on by Dean supporters. That is why I respect both Edwards and Kerry supporters.

I hope we can all eventually reach this same level of civility with Dean supporters. But it takes two sides to make peace. We're really all on the same side in the end. Bush is the enemy.

There may be a few snipes and ill thought out words here and there, but generally I predict our candidates will serve as exceptional roll models for their supporters. :)

have much in common - but have different strengths and gifts.

I would be delighted to vote for any one of the three of them.

I also suspect if one of the three is the nominee, and wins the GE (which after the SOTU last night, I have more confidence than ever that they will win) - the other two will be in the administration.

So it's Kerry, Edwards, and Clark, destined to continue the status quo together, huh?

Do tell us all what Led you to such a Conclusion.

The environment and outlook is more positive. I am even daring to hope that the Democratic party will be united come fall.

There may be some sniping among Kerry, Clark and Edwards. But I think all of these guys are mature and realistic and will take it in stride.

but I'm sure I like it

heh heh

:grouphug:

Are still stinging. Thanks for leaving us out once again. That's a great way to build "comity". Do you truly not want Dean's supporters behind the eventual nominee if it's not Dean?

I'm calling it like I see it. The fact is, there has been a lot of conflict between Dean and various other campaigns. The fact is, this has filtered down to the supporter level here on DU (but significantly less so in real life, IMO).

I also note that the last two paragraphs of my post are deliberately written not to refer just to Clark, Edwards, Kerry; they refer to every candidate and their supporters.

DTH

How about admitting then that the Clark folks are just as guilty as the Dean camp for the conflict that has arisen? It certainly seems to me that your visceral dislike for Dean and by extension all his supporters means you'd be more than happy to have us simply disappear if Dean were defeated.

I have never once flamed another candidate or been rude to another candidate's supporters here on DU. I have in the past 2 days defended my candidate or his supporters from really rude, obnoxious and hyperbolic attacks, mainly from Clark folks, but from others as well.

In my opinion, the damaging conflict has mostly come from the Clark supporters side being rude to us Dean supporters. I am quite sure you will vehemently (and probably rudely) disagree. Before you do, you might want to just consider that not all others share your point of view.

I am saying this as someone who has long considered Clark my second choice and who has defended him and his record here on more than one occasion. He is a candidate who, if Dean were knocked out, I would potentially donate to and work for, not just vote for. All this vitriol from some of his fans though is starting to make me reconsider.

So leave us Dean folks out of the conversation and bust on us relentlessly if you like, but don't expect our active support later.

I have admitted it many times before. I don't think any one camp has been particularly worse or better than any other camp, however. It's the primaries. People get heated about the primaries.

I've also said many times that I dislike Dean, but love many of Dean's supporters. I know that sometimes it's hard to recognize a distinction like that. But it's true.

As for lying, I'm not going to lie and pretend that things have been hunky-dory here between Dean supporters and supporters of other camps. It just hasn't been. Although I am sincere in hoping that it will be, eventually.

And I fully admit I gloated Monday night and yesterday, so I'm definitely -- no question -- part of the problem when it comes to friction between the Dean and Clark camps, but I'm also starting to feel more sympathy toward Dean as more time has gone by, so maybe that will help matters a bit. At least with me.

I apologize if I've offended you, for that really is not my intent. My intent when I criticize Dean is not to offend his supporters; it's to make people aware of the reasons why Dean would not be a good nominee, IMO. Again, a subtle but I believe real difference.

DTH

I'm tougher than that. I just felt it was important to voice another point of view. I found your original post to be divisive in its rather obvious omission of the Dean supporters, rather than promote the unity you claim to want.

But again, I deliberately pitched my message to supporters of all candidates in the final two paragraphs. I just didn't try to put forward what I honestly believe would be a lie.

DTH

Many Dean supporters have made it clear they have no use for us, even as human beings, so we've accepted that and moved on as best we can. When my candidate is attacked, I fight back. I haven't had to fight back against Edwards or Kerry or Kucinich supporters in any meaningful way. But several times a day I find myself defending against one or another Dean supporter, or on occasion, a Kucinich supporter or two. But I've met overwhelming kindness and good spirit from every campaign group on DU, except from Dean supporters. That's the situation I find myself in, not to my own liking at all, but there's so far been no way out of it. There are several Dean supporters who do not fit this mold and I like them very much individually, but the groups seem to conflict all the time. At some point, you give up and carry on. But I think everybody would like it better if we could get along.

"Many" Dean supporters? As I said in my reply to DTH above, I could certainly make the same exact statement about certain Clark supporters.

I will repeat, I have NEVER flamed another candidate or been rude to his supporters. Not will I if I have any will power to bear. However, I have felt nothing but vitriol and a loathing from (some) Clark supporters on this forum, and I have NEVER said anything hurtful to anyone. So pardon me if I won't take the blame for your war. I'm just caught in the crossfire, and feeling the bullets. You might just consider your side isn't entirely innocent.

You haven't heretofore had to fight against the supporters of Edwards/Kerry/Kucinich, etc, because they didn't pose any threat to you, so no need to knock them down. Just wait until Kerry and Clark start going at each other's throats (which I personally hope they will not) and see how long your truce lasts.

It would be better if we could all get along. On that we agree.

In my view, every candidate's supporters have been trashing Dean for a long time. That is only logical, considering how he has been the front-runner for so long.

I really don't think it's anything personal; it's just business (politics).

DTH

Although I have my reservations. But I don't feel that way about Dean. I don't agree with his governing principles based on his record in Vermont and some of his conflicting statements. I don't trust him based on some of the things he's said and done that just have not seemed honest. And the more I see of him ( and it's very little because I do not have TV), the less inclined I am to like him. So naturally when I express those opinions, I am going to end up being hated by some who have really personalized and identified with the campaign.

First, there are a proportion of Gen. Clark's supporters who have been themselves in the past partial to Senator Kerry. He was, until Gen. Clark entered the race, my own prefered candidate, from among those then on offer.

Second, a good deal of the differences between supporters of these candidates do not turn on ideological questions particularly. Sen. Edwards strikes me personnally as a little young for the task, for instance, but that is hardly a thing to die in a ditch over.

Finally, the supporters of all these candidates are, first and foremost, about defeating the criminals of the '00 Coup at the polls this fall. We are not interested in ideological purity; we are not interested in uncovering dark conspiracies the average person cannot guess at; we are not interested in a faction fight of any sort. We want the criminals of the '00 Coup out of office; we know that nothing good can be done until that has been achieved. Our differences are largely in our assessments of who has the best chance at doing that, and we know that if we bloody a fellow who could win, it will only help the enemy in the fall.

After all, before we get to the general election campaign, there will be plenty of time for the surviving purists who support no candidate with any real prospect of winning an election to trot out all the allegations such and so is not a Democrat, or did not genuflect to this particular votive candle, or whatever the foolishness might be. My own practice is likely to be to defend any of these three candidates against such sniping here in this forum. My support for Gen. Clark is hardly dimished by doing so, or by acknowledging that either Senator Kerry or Senator Edwards could be a formidable candidate, and that it would cause me no distress if either should prove the Party's candidate.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

Please, pardon my exuberance.

Don

You could talk a hen out of her teeth, Sir!

DTH

...what Clark, Kerry, Edwards and Kucinich bring to the table. It's the kind of debate we should be having on the left.

And I would be ESPECIALLY happy to support either Kerry or Edwards.:grouphug:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=160180

Maybe the people who said it will be every bit as bad were right. Maybe I'm a naive idiot.

:puke:

DTH

The article contains a good deal more hyper-ventilation than the talking-points revealed in it justify.

Kerry and Edwards are the two other candidates that I would feel most enthusiastic about supporting. I don't think I could put in better words than The Magistrate has as to why many of those of us who feel a common enthusiasm for these three candidates have gravitated towards these three in particular. I witnessed this comity and its effects myself in the Iowa caucus that I attended.

When the time comes for the Democratic nomination this alliance may become a great strengthening factor for the Democrats in the General Election. However, we must make certain not to alienate supporters of the other candidates.

The only downside is that all three can't be on the ticket.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I think more Clark supporters are rebutting the nasty shit being thrown about Kerry than Kerry supporters. I know I'm just ignoring those threads. :-)

Wait until it gets a little more desperate.... :)

it's about maintaining the corporate party status quo. Kerry, Clark, and Edwards are all part of the Democratic establishment. Of course they joined up to kill Dean. Can't have the party going in a new direction,now can we?

Wow, so much for the "he's a Republican" stuff. He moves quick.

No one ever said ideological purity required consistency in arguments, only in targets. Whatever slur seems handy for the occassion will be employed against what has already been designated the demon.

"The chief use of reason is the support of prejudice."

"They believed nothing they could not prove, and could prove everything they believed."

I have nothing against Howard Dean or most of his supporters, and I think that the overwhelming majority of non-Dean supporters feel the same way.

A great many Democrats, however, believe that nominating Dean amounts to a sure win for Chimp and that Dean's poor showing in IA combined with "the speech" and his drop in NH has diminished the anxiety of people who think others have a much better chance.

Probably we'll be going at it before too long. This is how politics works, has always worked.

Let's hope that we all can keep in mind that primary politics are just as messy and tough as interparty politics, except for the fact that when the fight's over it's time to unite.

We're good for a nod towards the merits of the other candidates. :-)

:yourock: