Exact Quote: Wes Clark bellitles Kerry as "junior officer" in military

Some questioned exactly what Clark said about Kerry- here is the exact quote that Clark made after the Iowa primaries.

--
Clark, who didn't compete in Iowa, told campaign workers in Manchester, N.H., that Kerry, a decorated former Navy officer, had a military background "but nobody in this race has got the kind of background I've got."

"It's one thing to be a hero as a junior officer. He's done that, I respect that," Clark said. "But I've got the military experience at the top as well as at the bottom."
--
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040120/ap_on_el_pr/clark_26

---
I'm sorry General, but trivializing Kerry's sacrifice as a "junior" officer is not something a leader does.

that military and former military really appreciate it when their contributions are diminished like this. Poor form, general.

Take that from a vet.

BTW do you understand what a "Junior Officer" is? Best look it up cause your making a fool out of yourself on this thread.

...the best possible answer. We have to be careful not to be "offended" by the truth. Being called a Junior Officer is not an insult. People with no military background should become familiar with these things before lashing out.

And you are military or ex-military. Please...before we indulge in hypocrisy, let's realize that one thing remains clear, Clark made it clear that the accomplishments of a soldier, however brave, don't stack up to Mr. 4-star in an air-conditioned office.

blew this thread.

:think: dude.

from Dole.

Don't try to boost your candidate by trying to start a silly
fight among the other two front runners.
It reflects poorly on your candidate.

Wes Clark told the millions of "junior" military and ex-military how little their sacrifice means, especially when compared to Mr. 4-stars selecting of bombing targets in an air-conditioned office.

Arrogance is a pre-req for being a general. When I listen to Clark I hear the same attitude that I hear when bush speaks. Clark is a man who is used to giving orders and used to having those orders followed with out question. This is NOT a man we need in civilian politics.

is grating. The rationalizations that Clark supporters are making for this kind of demeaning remark is unfortunate. Clark needs to clean up his act- he is now resembling Bush in style, not just substance.

Wes Clark told the millions of "junior" military and ex-military how little their sacrifice means

I don't see anything like that in the quotation.

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It was claimed that Clark said that the sacrifices of junior officers mean nothing. While Clark may have implied that "junior officers" don't stack up against 4-stars, he said absolutely nothing about the sacrifices junior officers make.

KING: Bob, do you have a question for the General?

DOLE: No, I think, you know, it's a tough -- you indicated it's a tough business you're in. Looking at it from my perspective, it seemed to me that John Kerry is a big winner tonight, not just in Iowa but also New Hampshire. I know you can't worry about Kerry's campaign but just as an observer I think he's going to benefit a great deal in New Hampshire. Somebody has to lose. Now, of course, you don't want it to be you but I think it may be you.

CLARK: Senator, let's be honest about this thing. The American people want a change in leadership. They're looking for a candidate that can lead on all of the issues. I'm the only person in this race who has ever done foreign policy and I know all of the domestic issues, too. It's one thing to talk about it, but if you think of foreign policy it's like major league baseball. I'm the only person who has ever played it and I pitch a 95 mile an hour fastball. I've negotiated peace agreements, I've won a war. I'm prepared to help the country that's why I'm running. I'm not worried about John Kerry or anybody else.

DOLE: We're not -- we're discussing here as friends but I think just politically you just became a colonel instead of a general...

CLARK: Well, I don't think that's {it} at all -- Senator, with all due respect, he's a lieutenant and I'm a general. You got to get your facts on this. He was a lieutenant in Vietnam. I've done all of the big leadership. I respect John Kerry and I like him but what I'm going to say it's up to the voters of New Hampshire, South Carolina, New Mexico, Arizona, Oklahoma, all across this country, and that's what democracy is about. It's your job to handicap the race. It's my job to go out here and do the best thing I can do for the United States of America and that's what I'm going to do.

DOLE: And I certainly wish you luck. I'm not being critical. I'm just being realistic. I've been there and I lost, of course, which is a lot more fun winning but...

CLARK: Well, I'll tell you what, I've been in a lot of tough positions in my life, one of them was leading the operation in Kosovo where I not only had to hold alliance but I had to worry about the Pentagon behind me. I'm looking forward to New Hampshire.

I'm not a Clark supporter, but this is a cheap shot against him. He didn't call Kerry a "junior officer," he didn't belittle him, he didn't attack him - in fact, he said he respects and likes him. He simply set Dole straight after he tried to use a military analogy to demean him and his chances. I saw this exchange and he made the "he's a lieutenant and I'm a general" in a joking tone. I thought it was a nice comeback.

Your fair-mindedness is much appreciated.

Please do not decieve on Clark's behalf. I am referring not to the discussion with Dole, but a speech Clark gave to his campaign workers after the Iowa debate:

--
Clark, who didn't compete in Iowa, told campaign workers in Manchester, N.H., that Kerry, a decorated former Navy officer, had a military background "but nobody in this race has got the kind of background I've got."


"It's one thing to be a hero as a junior officer. He's done that, I respect that," Clark said. "But I've got the military experience at the top as well as at the bottom."
--

And, by the by, being a general is a significantly higher rand than a Lt. That's a fact.

Why don't Dean supporters concentrate on their failing candidate and stop trying to sow seeds of division between the Clark/Kerry camps, eh?

When Clark insults Time Persons of the Year- the American soldier- it's back to Dean-bashing to "wag the dog". Sorry, Clark is going to have pay his penance for this.

he actually said somethng stupid like "junior military officers sacrifices mean little to me" which of course he did not.

Now you hate him for air conditioning. Kinda weak there guy.

...and I don't see Clark's comments as "belittling" Kerry.

He's highlighting a difference between himself and Kerry that is legitimate (although insignificant to me).

It's what I would expect any candidate to do.

...why stir up the pot? Do you have an agenda or something? ;)

Afraid to confront the fact that Clark offended millions of military and ex-military by deriding their "junior" status compared to Mr. 4 Star pushing buttons in an air-conditioned office. Can you say elitist and out of touch?

there's no smear there, and Clark hasn't offended veterans.

He got a pretty rousing reception at a VFW town-hall meeting today. But keep trying - it's amusing.

...that Clark is an out-of-touch elitist who's spent too many decades in an air-conditioned Pentagon office writing memos to remember what sacrifice on the battlefied meant. Truly "amusing".

just so factually wrong, it's not even worth responding to.

You have a good night, Printer.

I paraphrased your quote about sacrifice on the battlefield. Hope you don't mind.

Are you ex-military? I am, as is my wife. We weren't offended at all. Were much more offended by Bob Dole's vicious attacks which led to the General's statement.

So you're offended at Dole's remarks (reminder: Dole is also a veteran) but not Clark's? The rationalizations we make for those whose campaigns we support. Clark rightly clarified his remarks but his poor impression of the "average soldier" remains.

Who said I support Clark's campaign? Are you saying I am incapable of seeing when I've been insulted?

I was the average soldier/airman/sailor. So was my wife. Clark respects us. Dole showed the disrespect, not Clark.

now that's exactly how it went down...Dole trying to belittle the General and everybody who seen it knows he was only correcting that republican who fears the most Clark will be nominated, for sure!:)

..,then you'll have a case. But I won't wait for those stats.

Right...and I'm a Clark supporter.

apologies to Printer70

...at which a VFW member made various comments. This article specifically has to do with the comments that Clark HIMSELF made about Kerry. All the relevant quotes pertaining to the Kerry as "junior officer" incident are in this article. Please read both articles and you will understand the difference.

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I will vote for bush "junior" because we know he respects the military.
I mean he tries to teach them frugality by cutting their benefits. These vicious attacks on our troops by Clark show that he HATES our soldiers. It is not possible that in his rush to gain points in this very competitive race, he may have just made a mistake nooo, he simply HATES the troops. So I beg all of you, give chimp chimp boy 4 more years!

You're the one trivialising Kerry's sacrifice by thinking that the phrase "junior officer" is trivial. Or thinking that stating a simple fact, that Kerry was a junior officer, is belittling him. That's what the term for Lieutenant is, Junior Officer.

printer is 0wn3d

...I'm not going to carry water for the General. If Clark thinks that all the valor of a purple heart recipient from "junior officers" don't add up to the 4 stars on his jacket, he's going in the wrong direction.

as soon as you can back up your straw man and show where he thinks he's better than Kerry, I'll answer it. But so far, all he's done is correct a hatchet job from a three time loser (Dole), and then express a standard campaign pitch, that his leadership experience is one good reason to vote for him.

BTW, Clark won a purple heart as well.

I think being Director of Strategic Plans and Policy for the JCS and having Head of State status as SACEUR is a substantially different qualification for the presidency than being a combat soldier -- even a heroic one.

I credit our troops with the ability to understand this.

Remember Hackworth:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks%20Target.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=35&rnd=806.2125123497302

...Clark's pushing buttons in an air-conditioned office while Kerry won purple hearts for saving people's lives on the battlefied. The American people will determine which qualification is more important to the questions of "character" (which is what Clark was fired for)

yet you seem to have this difficulty with air conditioning.

NEXT!

At age fifty, as a three star General working as J-5 for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Clark didn't hesitate to tie a rope around a tree stump and rappel several hundred meters down a mountainside while under fire, in the hopes of saving the lives of soldiers whose armored personnel carrief had fallen when a portion of the road gave way.

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“YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!”


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

life-threatening wounds, unlike Kerry's flesh wounds for one of his Purple Hearts.

Mr. Printer seems to think rank adhered from birth to Gen. Clark, but as you have pointed out, that is not so. Both were junior officers in heavy combat in Viet Nam ( a Naval Lieutenant is equivalet to an Army Captain in rank), and were shot over rather sharply at it.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

Are you belittling the work of a military man? Clark and Kerry have tremendous respect for each other, and they know it and say so. Why do you feel the need to reject their relationship and carry on with this smear job?

And while you're at it, would you mind telling me exactly what these issues of character and integrity were that Clark was fired for?

Or for whom Hugh Shelton works?

Or why Shelton hasn't expanded upon the accusation by explaining what was so wrong wth Wes Clark's character?

Clark's Army service began during the Vietnam War. In an ambush with the Viet Cong, he received four gunshot wounds to his leg and hand, but still managed to direct a counterattack and lead his platoon to safety, earning a Silver Star and Purple Heart.
http://www.draftclark2004.com/news_detail.asp?nid=160

So, basically, Clark, in addition to winning a Purple Heart for saving people's lives on the battlefield, also has command experience.

Which is exactly what he said.

What's your objection, again?

Junior Officer. Before you lecture someone on the military. Please go back and study some military terminology. Don't they at least train you kids these days? My God, at least in the sixties we held classes before rallies.

I believe that Clark was a company commander in 'Nam, while Kerry was commander of a small gun boat. Big difference between the two!

but I think you're being too defensive.

Clark clearly said he respected Kerry's service. As I see it, he is trying to convey the message that he has more foreign policy and diplomatic experience, which he feels is essential at this point in time.

He's right, there is a difference between an officer and a general. He does have more experience meeting with foreign leaders and mapping out war policy. It's up to voters to decide if that distinction is relevant.

Perhaps Clark could have done a better job making the distinction, but I think your partisanship is coloring your perception of his statements. Of course, the media is doing there best to spin it as well - Democrats in disarray and all that.

I heard the comments and they did sound a little off to me. I will say upfront that I am not wild about Clark, so I am sure that colors my perceptions about what he said. He definately sounds a little arrogant and superior to me, sort of doing the "Big Me-little you" thing. But I don't see how a Kerry supporter can get offended by Clark pointing out (not too subtly) his more expansive military experience. Clark's comments seem a little pale when compared to some of the stuff Kerry has said about Dean and others. These guys are fighting hard and in that process, it isn't amazing that Clark belittled Kerry. I think that it may have not been smart to belittle him this way, cause it DOES look kind of arrogant, but he is trying to find a way to diminish Kerry's military service because it is a real threat to him. And all of these guys are doing what they can to take a shot here and there and diminish the other guy. Except Edwards, of course. He is doing his best to run a positive campaign.

Oh, and I would back off that whole 'air conditioning' thing. Cause that just opens the 'silver spoon' door on the Kerry side.

Which candidate you support for the nomination?

You don't need to. General Clark was leader of
NATO, head of the Allies, and a General in general
for something going on 20 or 30 years. If that doesn't
give him the right to act a little superior now and then
please tell me otherwise. He worked his way up from private
to Allies Commander. If a King started out as
a dishwasher in the kingdom, and then became King,
would it be an insult if he called one of the dishwashers
a dishwasher and said he was a good dishwasher? That is
what they call them---junior officers and dishwashers.
General can't help it if he was like a King. If you were a King
for 20 or 30 years, and then you had to take your Robes
off and join the normal people, it would be like trying to
walk around naked. Do you think you could do it
overnight without letting some of your Kingleness leak
out some times when you weren't looking? If you told people
what to do for 20 years and they had to do it or go to
Leevenworth, don't you think it would take a few weeks
before you got used to people not doing whatever you
told them or get shot? Same with if he is a Republican or
a Democratic. To regular people this look like an easy
decision, make up your mind or get off the horse. But to
somebody that is used to moving the pieces of the continents
and battlefields around and waving at armies with one hand,
picking a party is not very important, to be honest.
It is what regular people do all the time because they
don't have anything better to do, so regular people will
not undersatand why it took General so long or why he
voted for Reagan, Reagan, Nixon, and Bush. What matters
was, who is going to protect and secure the USA more and
better by loving the armed forces. That's what a General does.
It is obvious that some people that are jealous of a General
King do not understand what it must be like to come down
from the Throne and HQ and mix with regular peonple. He is getting
the hang of it just like he mixed in oh say at the motor pool
where people soon forgot he was a General, he was such a
one of the boys talking shop, motors, tires, gals, etc. I am sure
that he loves and respects Sen Kerry like he was one of
his boys in his motor pool. He didn't mean to belittle
Sen Kerry but only to point out that he himself was by definition
lots of a better hero and a leader. A General can not help
it if he is a little bit better than other people who are not
the General. If you were a General you would understand, but,
guess what, you are not. Case closed.

But, the day is young after all.

Almost as funny as the "Oscar" post!!!!!!!

one is unqualified to make this conclusion. Perhaps when you post documented and sourced statement from members and former members of the military who are offended your view will be more credible.

You don't have military experience either so don't lecture me or anyone else on the subject. You don't need to have served to discern why Clark is backtracking on a pathetic attempt to "pull rank" on a man who has three purple hearts.

I DO have military experience.

And answer the question! Do you have a source to back up your claim?

The ruling class wants a race between two Skull & Bones cult members, the only way to guarantee that one of their own remains firmly in control in the event they decide to ditch Bush for his excesses.

but go ahead and blame kerry and his supporters if you want.

Just someone left over from the "Dean is inevitable" camp.

I am referring about the media's pushing Kerry. CNN is owned by TIME-Warner, and TIME's founder was a member of Skull & Bones, as John Kerry is. The power of elitist cults like Skull & Bones lies in the influence and the help its members give to one another.

Why do they want another Bonesman in the race? Are they edging their bets in case they decide to ditch Bush for his excesses?

.

But noting that someone was a "Junior Officer" doesn't seem to me to be an insult. As others have posted here, Junior when combined with Officer is nearly a proper noun, not a demeaning adjective.

Anything below a Major is a junior officer.

I've never been in the military, but I understand that. Gen. Clark was trying to make the point that he has executive experience via his work with NATO, etc, etc. One thing that has not been brought up in this discussion is that Kerry can, and perhaps will, counter with the fact that he has been a US Senator for three terms (I think I have that right) and knows the ways of Washington, that politics is different than the Army in that one must cajole and compromise and not just give orders to be followed. To my mind, these are just debating points; Clark made his, and Kerry could counter with something like this.

If you agree with Clark, great. I don't. I think Kerry's valor on the battlefield is worth more than all the memos that Clark wrote up in his capacious NATO offices.

As a 10 year navy vet I find this sort of arrogant rank pulling quite repugnant.

what actually happened was the Dole told Clark that Kerry's win in Iowa meant that Clark was now demoted to a Colonel. Dole, who is himself a decorated veteran, knew exactly what he was saying and so did Clark.

In reply Clark pointed out that Kerry had been a "junior officer" aka a lieutenant while in the service and that he had been a general. There was no arrogance directed towards Kerry at all. Clark and Kerry had shared similar experiences in Viet Nam, both commanding troops (Clark commanding combat infantry, Kerry commanding a fast boat on the river--sometimes known as a "target on the water"), both being wounded, both being awarded medals for their wounds. Clark also won a Silver Star for his courage under fire.

The stories diverge at that point. Kerry left the service and soon was involved in the Anti-War movement, then politics. Clark remained in the service and worked his way up the ranks to the top effective rank in the modern military. Had Clark had the advantages John Kerry did he might not have stayed in the military but considering his background it was clearly his best ticket out of a semi-impoverished life.

If Clark is sensitive on the subject it is the sensitivity of any successful man who succeeded in his career and then has his accomplishments diminished by someone who should, and does, know better. Doctor, lawyer, indian chief, if you have succeeded in life through your own hard work and intelligence, you are not going to grin away a putdown by a drug salesman.

Just my opinion, of course.

...when you've spent too long in air-conditioned offices, you tend to think you're memo-writing is more important than any valor demonstrated on the battlefield.

clark was more responding to dole's attempt to diminish his accomplishment in the military. i'm a kerry supporter and i don't see it as an insult to kerry. i see it more as clark trying to play up his own record and offended at dole.

Yep. It sure is. I like every minute of it. Before long someone is going to bring up Juniors AWOL status.

Don

They know that before this is all over with there are going to be some comparisons to AWOL's military record. I can't wait.

Don

The fREEPers must be really squirming now that we are choosing between TWO DECORATED COMBAT VETERANS for the legitimately elected President of the United States.

:toast:

Wesley Clark did. Kerry served well for the amount of time he was in uniform. Compare both of them to the joke sitting in the WH.

i'm proud of my candidate. he was a jr officer and it's nothing to be ashamed of. wes clark stayed in the military and made it up to 4 star general which is hard to do so it's understandable he would be offended when dole tried to diminish his service. kerry took a different path and did good things there.

as for the joke in the white house, he is a total failure who never accomplished anything positive in life. including winning a national election.

and then tell me what they think.

You're just making hay here where there is none. He called him a hero and said he respected that. Clark was pointing out experience at the top and the bottom. :shrug:

Just like Kerry points out his decades of service o the Democratic party. Both are fair.

:boring:

:shrug:

...to Mr. 4-star and his memo-writing abilities. I care to disagree. I would prefer bravery on the battlefied and three purple hearts over an office-dwelling military exec.

I dont think Clark meant it disrespectfully...hence him saying "I respect that".

were decorated many times over for bravery in combat and on the battlefield. Some of you Dean supporters just crack me up. I really don't get what you hope to achieve here by attempting (rather unsuccessfully I might add) to incite rancor between other candidates.

Does not appear in this quote you are so eager to flog a distortion of. The word "experience" does. These are, Sir, seperate words, with distinct meanings. No one fluent in English considers them synonyms, or related in any manner, in the meanings they convey. One does not, for instance, experience going out to dinner to save for Christmas presents for the children, rather one sacrifices it to do that. Nor does one gain sacrifice at house-painting by repeated wielding of the brush, but experience at it.

Nor have you made, Sir, the least attempt to engage the facts of Gen. Clark's military career, as you straddle this oddly spavained hobby-horse of your's. Gen. Clark, in Viet Nam, was a company commander, and was wounded in action severely. He is as conversant with the sacrifices of combat as Sen. Kerry, or as anyone who has undergone that trial. What he is clearly conversant with, in a way Sen. Kerry is not, is with the wielding of executive power and the administrative functions and political realities of military power at the highest ranks. This is, like Governorship of a state, one of the few training grounds for wielding executive authority in a nation. The Legislature is not so good a school in this regard, though it is better than the presidency of a large business.

Your entire point here, Sir, is based on a deliberate distortion of the quotation you have yourself provided, and on a determined pretence of ignorance concerning elementary facts of human affairs in this world. One wonders what you hope to accomplish by it....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

exactly as I had predicted months ago, which is the main
reason I don't want him to be the nominee. The Rove machine
will eat this man for lunch. Clark has ALREADY made too many
conflicting statements, has acted way too arrogantly to be
likeable.

And don't tell me Eisenhower got elected president without
any political experience. In Ike's time there was no debates
on TV, no gotcha flock of reporters running around recording
every utterance and sigh from the candidates. I came to voting
age in the Kennedy era, and never forget that we never heard boo
about Jack's extramarital affairs in the 60's.

If we are serious about beating Buch*co, we gotta go with
persons hardened in today's political climate, such as Kerry,
Edwards or even Dean whom I personally prefer.

There is nothing in this quote to back any of your claims.

Sorry to break the reality news, but Kerry's military record is trivial compared to Clarks. They were BOTH heroes in Viet Nam, and Clark went on to serve at a rank that probably 1/100 of 1 percent of soldiers--heros or not--attain.

Read the quote again. How is that trivializing Kerry's service?

"junior officer" is not an "exact quote"

It's an edited quote

The poster could be a Bush supporter trying to act like a Dean supporter for all any of us know.

Don

Like Bush himself, a great many of Bush supporters, especially those known as "freepers", lack honor, truthfulness, and integrity. It is very possible that a "freeper" could pose as a Dean supporter on DU. It would be the dishonorable and dishonest thing to do.

But there are a number of Dean supporters here calling him on his assertion, including me.

With smears like this Clark will gain votes.

Above in this thread the following assertion was made:

"Clark is an out-of-touch elitist who's spent too many decades in an air-conditioned Pentagon office writing memos to remember what sacrifice on the battlefield meant. Truly "amusing"."

Kind of ironic, really, since the thread topic is supposedly about how terrible it was for Clark to "belittle" Kerry. The comment I'm quoting here sure sounds like an attempt to belittle Clark.

Anyway I thought some might be interested in reading part of Holbrooke's account about something that happened while Clark was serving as a Three Star General in Bosnia. I'll leave a link to
pages 9 through 16 of Richard Holbrooke's book, "To End a War", below. It takes a while to download to Acrobat Reader, which you will need to open it.

It describes, among other things, a tragic accident that happened in the Bosnian war zone when a Armored Personnel Vehicle carrying diplomats engaged in peace talks plunged off the side of a mountain road. The "we" referred to in the quote is Holbrooke and Clark.

"Wearing heavy flak jackets and helmets, we jumped off the edge of the road and walked down the steep incline. We were less than ten feet below the roadbed when enormous explosions went off. Small-arms fire broke out around us. From below and above people cried out in French, "Mines! Get back off the road!" Grasping roots to pull ourelves up, we scrambled back onto the road"...

I don't know how to copy this text, so I am retying some for you. There was further shooting. Clark and Holbrooke determined that the vehicle fell off the road further down. They met up with another vehicle with both French and American occupants. The accident scene lay below. Holbrooke continues:

"Since I was the only person on the mountain who spoke both French and English, I stayed on the road with the French while Wes descended. We anchored a rope around a tree stump so that he could rappel toward the vehicle, which French and Bosnian soldiers had already reached. Huge plumes of smoke rose from somewhere below us. We could hear Clark yelling through his walkie talkie that he needed a fire extinguisher urgently. I looked around frantically, there was none...

"Clark struggled up the hillside, using the ropes. He looked ten years older. "it's the worse thing you've ever seen down there," he said. By the time he reached the APC, he said, it was already on fire, apparently from the live ammunition that had "cooked off" and exploded".

Here is the link:

http://www.philadelphiaforclark.com/holbrooke.pdf

Is that sanyone's idea of an "air conditioned office"? Clark and Kerry respect each other. Sometimes I wonder, do the people who try to twist the words and experiences of these men for their own political purpose, truly respect either one of them?

Since you so frequently mention air conditioning:

Clark has more experience with the conditions the President would be put under, since the White House has AC. Probably central air.

:think:

I seems that Kerry did put his life on the line. This should not be dismissed.

:shrug:

The title does not mention the word belittle:

Clark Aims to Pull Rank on Kerry in N.H.

This is also a dupe of a thread you posted earlier today:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=162354


I am locking this thread.


DU Moderator