fundamentalist christian goes on shooting rampage - you wont believe why

As strange as it sounds, it looks like the cognitive dissonance was too much for him, he was angry about Bush's social security propaganda being mixed with fundamentalist religious propaganda and used as the Church's sermon. Basicly the sermon said you should be prepared to give up many of your social security benefits:

http://www.jsonline.com/

"A man neighbors described as quiet and devout opened fire Saturday on a group of men, women and children attending a weekly church service at a Brookfield hotel, killing eight people - including himself - and seriously wounding four others.

"He planned to shoot us all," said Chandra Frazier, a 31-year-old woman attending the Living Church of God gathering.

Although there was no known motive, Frazier said the man believed responsible for the shootings, Terry Ratzmann, 44, of New Berlin, was suffering from depression and was upset about a taped sermon he had heard a couple of weeks before by one the church's chief evangelists, Roderick C. Meredith

....

The victims were all in the same meeting room at the hotel, Tushaus said. The suspect, a man of about 45 who was armed with a handgun, was affiliated with the church, which had been meeting at the hotel every Saturday morning for four or five years, he said.

...

The Living Church of God is headquartered in Charlotte, N.C.

According to the global church's statement of "fundamental beliefs," the church is a born-again denomination that believes in the end time, followed by Christ's second coming."



Here is a copy of that sermon:

http://www.livingcog.org/files/magazines/janfeb2005/personal012005.htm



By Roderick C. Meredith, Editor in Chief
Are You PREPARED?

" Events prophesied in your Bible are now beginning to occur with increasing frequency. In this Work of the living God, we are able to warn you about what is going to happen soon. We are not talking about decades in the future. We are talking about Bible prophecies that will intensify within the next five to 15 years of your life!

Please understand. We are not "scaremongers." We love our fellow man. So it is our responsibility to warn our peoples—ahead of time—to prepare for the future. Most of our advice is spiritual in nature. However, in this editorial I want to give you some common sense advice involving your physical survival and your financial well-being.

We must always remember the "Big Picture" prophecy of Matthew 24:6–11. Christ explains that there will be smaller wars within "nations" and major conflicts between "kingdoms." He indicates in Luke 21:11 that "fearful sights"—or, as a number of translations have it, "terrors"—will come upon us, as well as truly "great" earthquakes at the time of the end. Concurrently, there will be famine and disease epidemics.

If we are truly Bible-believing Christians, we need to prepare for these situations. We are reminded of the old adage, "God helps those who help themselves!" Many examples indicate that although God will often intervene supernaturally to deliver us, He expects us to use wisdom and do our part to protect ourselves.

God warned Joseph, back in the land of Egypt, to set aside extra food for a prophesied famine (Genesis 41:25–57). Obviously, God could have said: "Don’t worry or take any evasive action, I will simply deliver you—no matter what happens!" However, the Bible—which reveals the mind of God—indicates that God wanted Joseph and his people to go through the experience of setting aside extra foodstuffs and learning to do their part in preparing for a future calamity. As the Apostle James wrote, "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20).

It is better for human beings to learn the lessons through these situations, and experience exercising caution, wisdom and perseverance, rather than having God "deliver" us from every possible catastrophe. For God is training us to be His full sons in His Kingdom and family forever. We must learn to develop the understanding of His will and the wisdom to do what is right in handling many different situations. Then we will be better fit and better prepared to be kings and priests, ruling under Christ, in Tomorrow’s World.

Our Father tells us in Proverbs 22:3 that a "prudent man foresees evil and hides himself, but the simple pass on and are punished." Obviously, God does not want us to be cowards. But it is also obvious that a wise man or woman should sometimes "hide himself"—take evasive action—or be secretly let down over the city wall and "flee"—as the Apostle Paul did in a dangerous situation (Acts 9:23–25)!

So we must each examine our own situation to determine what action we should take. Are we living in a low-lying coastal area where we may be in danger at a time of increasing hurricanes, tsunamis or similar natural disasters? Do we have at least a week’s supply of emergency food and water, flashlight batteries, a first-aid kit, a battery-powered radio, prescription medications and other essential items? Have we read the instructions from our nation or region about how to prepare for such emergencies as hurricanes, earthquakes or terrorists attacks?

I also want to strongly encourage our subscribers—especially the Americans—to prepare for a financial emergency that may strike our nation within a very few years. Although I am certainly not a financial expert, I do have access to many very reliable news sources. Right now, more and more news reports are warning of an impending financial collapse that may devastate the United States within the next several years! Note carefully a few highlights from a September 12, 2004 article by Carolyn Lochhead in the San Francisco Chronicle:

"The first of the 77 million-strong Baby Boom generation will begin to retire in just four years.… ‘Chilling’ is the word U.S. Comptroller General David Walker uses to describe the budget outlook.

‘The long-term budget projections are just horrifying,’ added Leonard Burman, co-director of tax policy for the Urban Institute. ‘I’ve got four children and it really disturbs me. I just think it’s irresponsible what we’re doing to them.’ ….

‘To give you idea how big the problem is,’ said Laurence Kotlikoff, economics chairman at Boston University, who has written extensively on the subject, to close a $51 trillion fiscal gap, ‘you’d have to have an immediate and permanent 78 percent hike in the federal income tax.’

These obligations are not imaginary. And unlike the 1980s and 1990s, economic growth cannot bail out the government because the Baby Boom retirement is at hand. Those born in 1946 will reach age 62 in 2008, allowing them to take early retirement and receive Social Security benefits.… A pathbreaking study by Jagadeesh Gokhale of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland and Knet Smetters, a former deputy assistant secretary at the Treasury—commissioned by former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill—estimated a $44 trillion fiscal gap. It laid out a few painful options on how to meet the liabilities:

More than double the payroll tax, immediately and forever, from 15.3 percent of wages to nearly 32 percent; Raise income taxes by two-thirds, immediately and forever;

Cut Social Security and Medicare benefits by 45 percent, immediately and forever;

Or eliminate forever all discretionary spending, which includes the military, homeland security, highways, courts, national parks and most of what the federal government does outside of the transfer of payments to the elderly.

Such corrective actions grow more severe each year. Waiting just until 2008, the end of the next presidency, would mean raising the payroll tax to 33.5 percent instead of 32 percent, the study found.

Gokhale said that fresh numbers from the Medicare trustees show the fiscal gap has since grown to $72 trillion, $10 trillion of that for Social Security and an astonishing $62 trillion for Medicare, the government health care program for the elderly."

Think!

Does an amount like $72 trillion get your attention? Does the need to raise the income tax by two-thirds—"immediately and forever"—seem significant? Does the need to cut Social Security and Medicare benefits by nearly half seem serious?

And whom have we just quoted? Some religious fanatics or financial weirdos? No! We have just quoted the U.S. Comptroller General and several respected economists, including two Federal Reserve Bank officials. They are the ones giving these astonishing figures, which portend the biggest economic challenge of modern times. So each of us should carefully consider what lies ahead, and get our own financial house in order.

A first priority would be to pay off all credit card debts—and all other debts we possibly can. We should also have at least the equivalent of 60 days’ living expenses in case of a sudden breakdown in the banking system or a similar emergency. Also, we should gradually work out a family budget that allows us, over time, to set aside financial resources to carry us through a year or more in case of job loss, catastrophic health situation, etc.

Finally, we should not leave God out of the picture. Although the natural reaction would be to take care of the financial side and forget about God, the truly wise approach is to honor our Creator in this matter and know, in faith, that He will then bless and guide all our other efforts. The Bible tells us, "Honor the Lord with your possessions, and with the firstfruits of all your increase; so your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will overflow with new wine" (Proverbs 3:9–10).

Jesus Christ Himself instructed: "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:19–21).

If you truly believe in the living God and in His inspired word, you will do your part to support His Work even in trying times. Then the Creator will certainly "be there" when you desperately need Him. But even if you do not yet understand this spiritual matter, be sure to be aware of what is going to happen physically, and take immediate steps to begin putting your own financial house in order. You owe it to your family and yourself!

—Roderick C. Meredith"

Once programmed as a "Robot For Christ" and "Warrior for Bush", isn't this permanent conditioning?

And sometimes they don't like what they see.

Woke up and smelled the coffee.

Who said that, I wonder? If God takes care of the lilies of the field, which are here today and gone tomorrow, how much more will He care for you?

This is the Jesus I follow.

they are shallow hypocrites who hide behind "religion" because they cant think for themselves and have no self identity. keep hitting their #1 devotion, money and material possessions, and more will turn.

My advice would have been to stop going to that "church" and to join a Democratic group.

Remember when Bill Clinton was president? We had surpluses then and jobs. All we had to worry about was Monica. What a luxury!

So True!!! I missed those days!

pro-active rapturing to save them and himself from the inevitable suffering described by his pastor.

:shrug:

Some believe that Xians will be taken to a place of safety for 3 1/2 years before X returns, but that's completely different from a rapture (most will take cars or planes, thank you). Most are iffy on the idea. Some openly scoff at it.

just checked their site..they're not into the rapture.

I haven't kept up with this crew since Garner Ted Armstrong left (seems like decades).

I used to get a kick out of his Armageddon pitch.

(edit)

(by this sermon of 'no hope')...religion was essentially the only life-jacket this man (and many) had. This unfortunate event shows what happens when people have been asked to sacrifice too much. Taking away his future SS & Medicare (his social life-jackets), this WAS the 'last straw' for him. He wasn't angry at the people in the room. He was angry at what he was being religiously force-fed in that room. Because he was afraid of the powers-that-be, he did what most people who feel powerless and are afraid do...he turned that anger essentially in on himself...by shooting his fellow church goers. This is tragic, but says so much in a microcosm, of what's going on on a much broader scale nationally...particularly in rural America.

I also heard that Repugs have been bringing in so-called "Preachers" to head up church groups around the country...which are less connected with religion, and more connected with the Repug 'Party line'...and what they plan to achieve. And they think this brain-washing can take place FIRST through the churches of America. In this case, it indeed backfired on them.

That's just my 'take' on it.

and it is what I expect they are doing!

"I also heard that Repugs have been bringing in so-called "Preachers" to head up church groups around the country...which are less connected with religion, and more connected with the Repug 'Party line'...and what they plan to achieve. And they think this brain-washing can take place FIRST through the churches of America."

part of an "in" group, uneducated in history, begin to feel desperate. Remember Jim Jones!

They're not scaremongers. They're only scaring people to death and into dealing death to others. This is out of love so that their neighbors don't have to go through the end times tribulations. I guess.

was not having trained ministers. They had to have lay preachers or members of their group as 'ministers'. I think this is how they managed to get things so very screwed up.
I certainly can understand this guy's frustration, too bad he was armed.

degrees. I think that is a HUGE issue right there. You don't get the hate spewed (generally) from ministers who've had to attend seminary or theology programs; many of whom allow doubt to be a learning tool.

In divinity programs, you are required to parse the Bible, discuss it, learn that the same verse can mean many different things to different people.

This is a big issue, and easily overlooked. Fred Phelps never attended a theology program, you can bet.

master's, I think, maybe the PhD. (AC wasn't accredited, and had only been open a few years.)

Worldwide Church of God started their own in-house college for training their ministers and for church kids to go to.

emotions, just like this church is. Notice the sermon. That was actually a very realistic, albeit frightening scenario. And I believe it's very true.

This government is out of control. It's absolutely suicidal. This country is imploding, as we speak. It will take a miracle rivaling God's creation to get us out of this mess.

So this church has 20-20 vision. Now I ask who will they urge their "flocks" to vote for? A democratic candidate? You've got to be kidding. They will stand up there and urge their followers to vote for a Republican, because they're the God-Approved choice.

So they should not expect anything different from their sheep. This man was probably just as conflicted as the church. It's their own fault.

Nothing like shilling for the bastard-in-chief's immoral budget policies while claiming tax-exempt status. Anyone know how to report this type of abuse to the IRS?

They actively teach their members not to vote or join political parties.

Their point wasn't private accounts, but that the sky is falling. They buy into whatever "imminent disaster" crisis is prognosticated.

Before WWII their parent church taught the end was near; communism produced many a grand article; the Cuban missile crisis; price controls and the OPEC oil embargo; the Reagan/USSR nuclear missile placement business in Europe; Iraq War I; Iraq War II ....

the same gang that ran the holocaust, african slave trade, extermination of native americans, seems to be a historical trend in that religious denomination eh?

Msongs

read our paper ballot proposal for CA
www.msongs.com/vvpb.htm

That is incomprehensible. Now he won't be able to do anything to help at all.

Here is a link to faith-based watch page at Media Transparency:

http://www.mediatransparency.org/faithbased_watch.htm

motive, or is that a rhetorical question?

I'm guessing there is a seriously dark secret looming behind this act of violence.

qualify as a "seriously dark secret"?

I would ask all those above who have commented on his state of mind and "cognitive dissonance" to note his age.

"These obligations are not imaginary. And unlike the 1980s and 1990s, economic growth cannot bail out the government because the Baby Boom retirement is at hand. Those born in 1946 will reach age 62 in 2008, allowing them to take early retirement and receive Social Security benefits.… A pathbreaking study ...estimated a $44 trillion fiscal gap. It laid out a few painful options on how to meet the liabilities."

This man was born in 1961, the last years of the Boom. He was 2 when the first Kennedy was assasinated and 7 when they shot Martin and Bobby. Old enough to get a clue during Watergate and probably ingested enough Led Zeppelin and herb to hate disco when the time came. 19 years old when Reagan tottered into office.

:smoke:

What did his experience of these events and his grounding in the American values that were being "framed" at the time have to do with his insanity? Was his own near-future retirement uppermost in his mind?

Cognitive dissonance? Yeah, he woke up and smelled the napalm. And it hurt.

I am almost thinking they should be left in the dark.


By the way, the first couple of paragraphs are very apocolyptic. The financial stuff make sense.

http://www.livingcog.org/files/magazines/marapr2005/personal032005.htm

The murder took place in March not in February. This above link is the March issue.

as a contractor. I'm waiting to hear more. I think the story is still developing.

After the lines you quoted was:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/mar05/309134.asp

She reported that the sermon by Meredith, who is seen on many of those broadcasts, dealt with a coming "spiritual war.

and regarding Meredith's sermon: "In a recent telecast, he warned that a mysterious spirit war in the next several years will change the world and alter lives.

Depressed and isolated man, church was his "family", chaos ahead and a spiritual war. Wonder how Meredith talks about spiritual war and how the
shooter took it all.
Wonder if it was an act of anger in his mind or an act of love.

online about this which gives more details on that story. Here are some excerpts:

BROOKFIELD, Wis. (AP) - The man who fatally shot seven people during a quiet church service before turning the gun on himself was on the verge of losing his job and upset over a sermon he heard two weeks ago, investigators said Sunday.

Terry Ratzmann, 44, left no suicide note and gave no explanation for the killings during Saturday's weekly meeting at a suburban Milwaukee hotel. It was unclear what specifically upset him, but Ratzmann was a member of the Living Church of God, a denomination whose leader recently prophesied that end times are near.

-SNIP-

One of Ratzmann's friends begged him to stop, calling him by name and saying, "Stop, stop, why?" police Capt. Phil Horter said. Chandra Frazier dove under a chair. The man sitting in it died.

"I just remember crawling on the carpet and just praying, screaming out and praying," Frazier told "Good Morning America" on Sunday.

After killing seven people and wounding four others, Ratzmann took his own life, leaving four rounds in his gun, police said.

-SNIP-

Don Free's niece, Angel Varichak, was one of the wounded. Free said she was expected to survive.

"I wanted to know where God was when this happened," Free told the Chicago Sun-Times. "He was supposed to be everywhere. He could have at least been there."

--------------------------------
This pretty much sums up the cognitive dissonance these end-timers are unequipped emotionally to handle. They are told God will protect them from everything if they obey, but then reality blows that naive belief out of the water when one of their kool-aid drinkers can't handle the thought of the "apocalypse" and goes postal when the preacher tells him it is here. These misguided people want to be around for the "rapture" but they're also scared to death of it. Critical mass for cognitive dissonance + minister-induced panic = tragedy.

What I really like about this AP news story is that it places the end-time aspect of the story in the forefront and subtly displays it as the extremist view that it is. I hope that more media cover this story in a way that makes people in these cult-like end time churches start to think about how crazy this apocalyptic crap is.

"...a few painful options on how to meet the liabilities:

"More than double the payroll tax, immediately and forever, from 15.3 percent of wages to nearly 32 percent;

"Raise income taxes by two-thirds, immediately and forever;

"Cut Social Security and Medicare benefits by 45 percent, immediately and forever...."

Easy for him to talk, he's made his tax-exempt nut!

It sounds like we need to turn all our assets over to some church to secure our places in the imaginary heaven. What a scam!

security, not because of * or baby boomers or anything else, but because X's return is always just around the corner. Always has been. You don't understand the mindset in that particular church (or set of churches), they're pretty "politics is Satan's system, we are working for inclusion in God's system". * and Clinton? Not God's government, any more than Mao or Hitler was.

He apparently heard not a Meredith tape (in this kind of church, there's a central HQ congregation and minister, who makes weekly tapes that get mailed out to members, and who visits outlying congregations; there's also sometimes a local minister, in charge of weekly Sabbath and Holy Day sermons). He apparently heard a local sermon.

It's more likely that some doctrinal point was made that he disagreed with. Maybe the timetable for Christ's return was altered ... again; maybe some minor doctrine was changed; maybe something was said that he took personally (and sometimes the ministers intend for them to be taken personally, and target one or two people in the congregation).

Hard to know unless somebody can tell me what the sermon was about, and what was said in the 20 minutes before he huffed out. The congregation members probably took notes; I'd like to read Ratzmann's notebook.

crossed the poor guy's wires.

You gotta admit that a fundie minister preaching tax hikes is pretty weird!

Nobody likes paying taxes, and WWCers are no exception (in whatever church they may be in, and the Living Church of God --LCG-- is one of its daughter churches). But they're absurdly law-abiding, and sermons at tax time stress rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Just like they stress during the three holy days when they take up offerings the "rendering unto God" line.

Meredith wasn't taking a stand on SS. A lower-ranking minister might; but Meredith is above it all, by and large, having been a hard-working minister for what? 53 years by now, I think. He said *if* SS is to be saved, it'll need tax hikes. His point is that the tax hikes would lead to chaos, and no tax hikes would lead to chaos. You may not agree with his point, but that's what it was, because that's what it had to be, and that's the only way a church member could possibly take it. (Even if Ratzmann was flaking out, that's how he'd take it.)

This is a recycled genre piece that only makes sense in context. DUers lack the context. I've seen its predecessors going back to the late '30s. They all quote experts, sometimes out of context, and the quotes all show beyond a shadow of a doubt that the current system cannot possibly last more than a few years. A few years later, it seems God has decided to delay things, but again, "things" can only go on a few more years. After you see a few such pieces or sermons, most people basically tune out the sermon as such, and by the time 3 minutes have passed they've boiled it down to the couple of points that must invariably be made. The points are valid enough for believers (keep finances in order, have savings and be prepared for a disaster, be a good Christian), but the hysteria really wears thin. That's the now-traditional style for such pieces, sadly enough.

are probably accurate!! :(

... as I said in another thread, I used to listen to a radio broadcast from a Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong who I believe used to be connected to this same church. (I think he was ousted over a sex scandal, some kind of scandal and fallout with his father).

The message was the same. Oil shocks, the Middle East are all biblical prophecy and portentious of the End Times.

As far as I am concerned, these folks are just playing a message to ensnare people. Maybe they believe it, maybe they don't.

Maybe this will become commonplace and they will just wipe themselves off the planet. (This could be their "rapture".) Then nuthin left but us 'libruls. :-)

The idea that a God has anything to do with humans on this planet or the planet's actions is absurd.

In your opinion? You're being too modest. I say that your statement -- "This individual looks like a complete fucking whack job" -- is a hard fact. :-)

n/t

and you are murdered by a gun-toting fundie wack job,

do you get excommunicated?

Or is there also a Dead Church of Gawd and your membership transfers automatically?

Or does the paradox of being a dead member of a Living anything spontaneously create a black hole that sucks all matter into its ever-expanding maw, triggering a new big bang in an alternative universe where you get to be "Gawd," and eventually one of your fanatical wack job followers goes berserk and offs a few of your other followers, thereby triggering the creation of yet another "Gawd"? If this is indeed what happens, how long until everyone is "Gawd"?

I just love religion. It's logic is inevitable.