This is a unpopular post, but I do not care-blast away!

I am democrat! I have a tube fed young adult. Tube feeding does not mean brain dead! Terri has as much right to live as anyone on this board! 12 different specialist have stated that Terri is not brain dead! If she was on life support it maybe different. Tube feeding is not life support! It is murder! Can anyone produce a living will that she signed and stated that she wanted to die in the event that she would go on a feeding tube. The answer is NO! It is odd to me that her husband is so bent on his wife to be put to rest. If this board feels that being tube fed is life support,then the mind set is that anyone who needs food to live is on life support! Flame away!

this is perhaps the most sensible post on this subject I've heard

Care for a cold drink?

When I came to DU this evening I read some of the posts that put me in tears. When will people open their eyes. Shit this is a life here that we are talking about. I tell you if anyone would try such a sick tatic on my daughter, there would be hell to pay.

anything on this case? She is in a woke coma. She will not come back to life. The longer she is this way the longer she's going to stay that way. It's not about life. It's about one individual. It's abuse of power and is UNCONSTIUTIONAL BY CONGRESS! This is a state case and nothing more. It's not my business. It's not your business. It's against the seperation of power. There have been more then a dozen hearings of this case by conservative judges and they all sided with the husband.
These people have gone too far going in from our bedrooms to our hospital rooms! I'm sick of it!

Koolaid! :)

Interfering in the course of care of any member of your family for naked political gain?

Note: 15 years ago, advance directives were very rare indeed.

a life is more important than any political agenda!

You're talking to the wrong group of people pal. Do you think Tom DeLay and Bill Frist care at all about this woman? :silly:

Has anyone said he is brain dead and should not be fed? If they did, what would you do? If you wanted him off the tube feed because he was diagnosed as brain dead, and someone told you you could not, what would you do?

Should this decision be between your young adult, your physicians and your conscience? Should it be in the hands of the court? State court? Federal court? Should it be decided by Congress?

This case has been thoroughly adjudicated and Terri's wishes have been legally confirmed.

I'm sorry that you have a tube fed young adult - does that person also have a flat EEG, as Terri does? Does that person have a liquified cerebral cortex, as Terri does? Does that person have a hope of recovery, as Terri does NOT?

to them and 12 different doctors have stated so! Her brother stated that most of the information was not allowed in the proceedings. Also the husband has stopped all videos of being taken of Terri's interaction!

A flat EEG means she cannot respond. Her parents and siblings are lying, or they are so unbelievably delusional that they think she has a hope of recovery. SHE DOES NOT. HER BRAIN IS GONE.

They are devastated by loss and interpret every twitch, lip smack, and blink as proof of communication. It takes them a long time to come to terms with the fact that their family member is gone. Some never do, and that's when the courts have to act in the patient's interest.

She has no cerebral cortex. There is no communication. There is no possibility of improvement.

They went in there years ago and videotaped her for hours and hours asking the same questions and trying to get a response. Have they ever showed those hours on TV? No, because her inadvertent movements corresponded with their talking to her like once or twice. The rest of the time there was nothing. As for the 12 doctors, they have only looked at pictures and video. Kind of like Dr. Frist making a diagnosis from the floor on the Senate.

Her cerebral cortex has been liquified. You can't rehabilitate that. She is gone.

Her parents have been arguing this forever. The judge doesn't buy it.

What do you think has been going on for the last five years? Litigation over these very issues.

Either you accept the judges decision or you simply state that no person on a feeding tube should be taken off.

I will simply wait with much patience for this obvious flame bait thread to be locked. :eyes:

pass the popcorn please

Do you like butter?

Perhaps some carmel? :)

I like Whoppers and Junior Mints myself.

Could you pass the Sour Patch Kids?

Red Ones if you have any.

I like the blue ones because I am democrat

I like the Red One's because they taste the best.

But don't be fooled, politicaly I am very, very Blue. :)

Now that you mention it a Blueberry Icee would hit the spot right now.

I only say that because the theatre is usually out of White Cherry by now.

bugger. I'm off on an errand, will check in again later. I must say I'm amazed at how patient people have been here. Hang onto the snacks, ok?

Pick me up some Herhey's Minatures on the way back, and i willl definitely share the Special Darks with you. :)

doesn't make them brain dead, but Terri Schiavo is a vegetable, and removing her feeding tube will not lead to your child being removed from tube feeding too.

This is just sick!

Withdrawing feeding tubes goes on every day around the world. There is no suffering because of it. And that 'thought' is even more stupid because Ms. Schiavo CAN'T FEEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sheesh, start thinking about it!! Her cerebral cortex is LIQUID - she cannot feel, or think, or see, or hear.

How about keeping a person a live against their own wishes? People have this happen to them all the time. My great-uncle was pulled from the tubes and he died two days later. Nobody was knocking on his wife's door to try to "save" him. She is long gone. She doesn't feel anything. The parents are the one's who are sick keeping her life for their own selfish reason's. It is known that even if Terri had a living will they will still go against that will even if it was written in stone.

:crazy: :silly: :crazy: :silly: :crazy:

cortex. She is not sentient. This is NOT life!

It is about letting someone have the power to control their own death. It is about power and control. It is not about tube feeding.

She didn't sign a living will, but she told her husband her wishes. This has been thoroughly adjudicated, through years and years of trials and testimony.

And do you have any arguments other than right wing nutcase talking points?

against the santicity of marriage. During the election the republicans went on and on and on about marriage and it being sacred. THEY ARE GOING AGAINST MARRIGE BY BUTTING IN! This is between a husband and wife. Not Tom Delay. Not Bill Frist. Not Bush. The husband and wife as stated by the law. Even though he has moved on with his life he is still recognized by law that he is her husband. It's up to HIM! NOT ANYBODY ELSE. Republicans preach about respecting marriage? RESPECT IT NOW! NOT ELECTION YEAR!

They were uncommon 15 yrs ago. People discussed this with their spouses and doctors instead of writing it because advance directives were not readily available or used then. There is not one because they were not being used then.

Please provide links to these 12 alleged statements. The court system seems to have missed them.

"Tube feeding does not mean brain dead!"

No, but having no cerebral cortex does mean brain dead.

If there is no basis for the claim, the claim is meaningless.

In the interests of pursuing an agenda, people will often fabricate claims that have no basis in reality. It would seem that the brother's claim of a dozen "experts" who conveniently manage to contradict the documented statements of the medical experts and courts involved in this case is rather suspect.

are also making a decision for your person there. He has the right to have his own opinions too and make his own decisions and you and I and everyone else doesn't have the right to impose their will on him. As I would never impose my will on you, your right to do so with Schiavo ends at your nose.

Its not odd, really. I've had the same situation too and its with the GREATEST love that you make it. YOu do it because to continue when there is no hope is not a loving thing. Its torment and horror. That's my experience. No one has a right to interfere in my decision and I have no right to interfere in anyone elses. If you cannot see that, then you need to rethink what you are saying.

Good luck and god bless with your family member. Its a long hard haul, I know.

PS. There is tube fed and brain dead. The greatest experts possible have concurred, including the world's best neurologist that she is gone. I would defer to them rather than emotion. Emotion is what is making an obscenity of this now.

close to Terri are stating she is not brain dead!

their own feelings than hers.

'State' all you want - the medical facts are that she is brain dead. Only her brain stem is working. The rest of her brain is LIQUID.

in order to keep her alive. I suspect that someone is paying these people.

Plus, then they would have open heart surgery performed on her. And they have stated that even if she HAD a living will they would not honor it. That fact alone pretty much closes the books on the case.

I have to think most fathers would say the same thing about their daughters

That's why.

If an individual who was conscious, but dependent on a feeding tube for nutrition and hydration signed a written directive asking that such treatment be discontinued,and that person was determined to be of sound mind, do you believe that his/her wishes should be honored or should they be disregarded?

onenote

by a directive would make all of the difference in the world. I feel with the medical doctor with all of the diffent conclusions. She should be maintain. There is brain stem activity that keeps the organs alive. She has had no intervention at all during these years after her injurys. Feeding trainer, speech therapist and so on.

These were not common 15 yrs ago. What was common was telling your family your wishes, discussing it with them and you doctor. There is no written advance directive because they were not around.

It wasn't until the last few years that the hospital started asking us if my grandmother had a living will when being admitted into emergency.

I don't remember being asked that when my grandfather went to emergency because of a massive heart attack 10 years ago.

A court decides. And when the fundies don't like the result, will get Congress involved? This is madness.

Courts make life and death decisions every day. They made one here..they applied Florida law which allows these decisions to be made without a written directive. If Congress wants to change the law and say no one can be denied medical care, including nutrition/hydration without a notarized written statement sprinkled with holy water, they can do so. But they shouldn't go sticking there noses in individual cases where there is absolutely no evidence that the governing state law has been ignored or that Terri (or her parents) have been denied due process.

onenote

The lower brain that keeps your heart going and other bodily functions operating is still intact. All cases are different and that's why they have to be decided individually.

In Florida, the law says that if it's established that this is what she would have wanted, it can be done. They did that.

I am far from an expert on this subject, medically and politically, but I've heard enough evidence from both sides to convince me that Terri would not have wanted to live like this. Her husband has been offered upwards of $10 million to sign away his rights, yet he refused. If he was doing this for money, wouldn't he have taken that money and ran? Furthermore, he offered to donate the rest of Terri's life insurance to charity. Court after court after court has determined that this was not Terri's wish. What are the chances that they, with much more information and testimony, were all wrong?

Furthermore, no matter what you feel on the case, do you really want Congress, and NOT your next-of-kin, to be responsible for your medical decisions if your life is in danger?

People far more educated on this subject will probably come in and explain this much better and clearer than I am able, but these are my views on the subject.

have an abortion because of the pregnancy and some wacko group petitioned the court to have custody of her? It was an agonizing and terrible ordeal for the family. THey wanted to take her away from her family and make her have the kid even though she would have died. What the HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!

people on tube feedings because of total gastrectomy, brainstem stroke involving the swallowing and gag reflexes, and esophageal cancer. The deal isn't the tube feeding, which is life support and entirely appropriate in their cases and with their consent.

It's the lack of a cerebral cortex. It's the lack of any quality of life. It's the prolongation of death, not the support of any meaningful life. It's about countermanding the decision of a court which is acting in the patient's interest and has determined that the patient herself would not want to have her death prolonged in this manner.

Please educate yourself. Thanks.

And to be sure, none of Congress' business. This is a decision that society long ago delegated to Terri's husband: You know, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health? This man has been living with this reality for 15 years, and both our laws and the facts dictate that it's up to Mr. Schiavo to speak for Terri when she can no longer speak for herself.

they come into your bedrooms. Now they're coming into your hospitals. Next? Could be your church or your school. They want complete power over everything. When it's on their agenda. Never mind law and basic rights.

Terri is not considered brain dead because she needs a feeding tube, she is considered brain dead because various scans and tests have shown a lack of activity. Some people may require a feeding tube, or even assistance breathing, but if there is evidence of cerebral activity, that person is not considered brain dead. And many experts state that Terri is brain dead.

So, while I feel for you in your tough situation, Terri's case may be different than what is close to your life.

You are correct, Terri has no living will, and that is disturbing, to say the least. What is also disturbing is all the legal wrangling going on in this case. I think many Conservatives are using it as wedge issue.

I don't know these people, but I do know Terri's parents offered Michael a way to divorce her so he could move on with his life, but he refused. And yet, they are trying to paint him as a greedy monstor. If he were really a greedy monstor, and did not believe he was carrying out Terri's wishes, why wouldn't he just walk away (as they offered him the opportunity to do so)? On the other hand, he is living with and has children with another woman. He has, in a sense, moved on. To what extent does he still love and care about Terri?

As for her parents, I think they just can't let go. Maybe they see something because it is really there, and she is not brain dead. Maybe they just want to see something. In any case, they are being manipulated and exploited by the radical so called "Pro-Lifers"

And why would the courts determine she is brain dead and side with the husband? The Conservatives keep saying the courts are evil, I don't think that's fair. The courts are trying to look at this as objectively as possible. This is not to say that courts can't be wrong, but several courts in Florida have reviewed this case and determined that based on the laws on file, Terri Schaivo is brain dead and Michael Schiavo is her guardian.

Personally, I think they should pass laws that in the absence of written and properly witnessed instructions all measures must be taken. But I think that law should be effective going forward, not retro-active.

was a horror as I remember. She never recovered. She said today that those parents don't love their daughter enough to do what is just and loving and right. She said even though she considered suicide at the time, she had the plug pulled on her daughter because Trudy was brain
dead, just as poor Terri is. She did it because she loved her daughter's soul and its right to peace and release more than she loved her own suffering. I guess that is the difference here for me. I feel for the parents but I find their actions sad and sorrowful.

but, I wouldn't say Terri's parents don't love her, just that their love takes a different form. At worst I would call them weak for not being able to let go and realize that may be the best thing for Terri.

I blame Randall Terry and all who are manipulating the Schindlers for their own personal/politcal gain

and the courts many judges have sided with the husband. Even conservative judges that Jeb Bush personally appointed sided with the husband. That must tell you something. When a judge wouldn't side with them they took matters into their own hands. It's purely disgusting and unconstiutional.

maybe it's just me

She is not in a vegetative state. Terri is in a persistent vegetative state. 19 judges have looked at this case and came to the same conclusion.

In Terri's case, the feeding tube is life support because she is in a vegetative state. She has no cerebral cortex.

I had only been back in town 5 days when this happened. Within those five days, my mother had let us know that she wanted a DNR if anything happened.

When we got to the hospital, the docs were using the paddle things on her. My sisters and I had to tell them to stop. It was a difficult decision. I had things left to tell her, but I knew she wanted to go home. We could have selfishly had the doctors continue to try to bring her back.

I would not have been able to handle the government coming in and taking over and doing something that I knew was against her wishes. Especially for political gain.

involved should be the ones making the decision. Your mom got what she wanted and I'm glad, though I know it is the hardest thing to do. This girl made it clear and it was proved over and over and over again. I see no justification for any of this. Her parents are selfish and thinking of their own loss, not the quality of her life. Poor woman. I wonder what she would think if she knew of all of this. I would come back from the grave and smack some people.

My Mom was cognizant and aware the last time we talked. She wasn't in a vegetative state for 15 years. She wanted to go because she was tired of being sick and confined to a bed.

If these people have faith, why would they want to keep Terri here? Her spirit could be free of this life and not tethered by her non-functional body. Sometimes you just have to let go. If your faith is strong, you know you will see her again.

We let her die as she wished, being terminal and all. I have been wondering this same thing, why are they afraid of death? It was the most difficult thing I've ever done, helping my mother achieve death, but it was right. I don't know what happens after you die, but we'll all find out some day. Why are the fundies afraid to let her die? I know, it's about power, but why are the stupid fundies afraid to die?

Exactly. How ludicrous of Dubya to rush back to Washington to sign this bill into law. When Governor of Texas, he effectively sentenced hundreds to death by putting his signature on a law that brings about the opposite result. And, I am not talking about death row inmates.

If Terri Schiavo was not a resident of Florida, there would be no such outcry from the Republicans in Washington. If Jeb Bush was not
the Governor of Florida, it would have never gotten this far.

He is starting his presidential campaign early with the help of his brother in the WH, and the other idiot politicians. One needs only to read the Repub memo to understand where their priorities lie:

"An unsigned one-page memo, distributed to Republican senators, said the debate over Schiavo would appeal to the party's base, or core, supporters. The memo singled out Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.), who is up for reelection next year and is potentially vulnerable in a state President Bush won last year.

"This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," said the memo, which was reported by ABC News and later given to The Washington Post. "This is a great political issue, because Senator Nelson of Florida has already refused to become a cosponsor and this is a tough issue for Democrats."

sad that Terri is caught in the cross hairs. This should not be a democrat or republican issue. The courts need to take a closer look at this. Who appointed this judge? Stop feeding his dumb ass.

she's doing fine now, well not normal but with our family she is a contributing member! the reason? we don't give up!

Terri has no cerebral cortex.

There are many people who have feeding tubes (including my grandmother) who are not in Terri's situation.

I lost a mother with wide spread cancer. They wanted to try and bring her back. We (all) of the family did not want to see her go through all of the pain. That is what my mother wanted. She told us all. The courts are going on the testimony for her husband. Protective service wanted to do an investigation on how she got injured! The husband is the only person who states her wishes. The reason why the mother and family does not want this to happen is because they were never informed of Terri's wishes.

There was evidence of her declaring her wishes not just to her husband, but to other family members and friends. The court weighed the credibility of the testimony and, as courts do, made a judgment. Again...if the people of the state of Florida want to establish a different legal standard (beyond a reasonable doubt, two written statements on onion skin parchment bought at a small store in Pinnellas) they can do so. The court applied the law as it exists. It weighed the evidence. WHy do you think the court is so hot to "kill" Terri?

onenote

A little obvious, wasn't it?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You posted an obvious flame-bait thread, complete with RW talking points. Do yourself a favor and read up on the case from a non-biased site. www.abstractappeal.com

they are human ones!

and Randall Terry.

I feel they know her best!

She is married. Her husband is her next of kin.

Her best friend and other people said that this was her wish. Maybe Terri didn't say anything to her mother and siblings because she wanted her husband to make the decision. Maybe she knew that they would try to keep her alive no matter what. (I'm only speculating on this part.)

The courts have gone over this for years and all came to the same conclusion. The congress should stay out of it.

What is normal in this world. My daughter is my heart. She is different in a good way. She has much worth in life and I am saddened Terri is being starved. What is the problem with keeping Terri alive. She is not suffering. Why would her husband not let her parents take care of her? He has moved on with his life. Leave Terri live her life out in peace.

have been removed.

I don't buy that she knowingly made a wish known that she would her feeding tube removed in this situation. She was so young, and she may or may not have made an off-hand remark about not wanting 'to live that way.' I strongly doubt that she knowingly made her wishes in such a case known, after she had been fully informed, because she would have put them in writing. I do not think that any living-will-type directives should be honored if they are not in writing (and there are legal equivalents for a person that cannot write themselves).

His single-minded determination to have her tube removed troubles me. Why not just divorce her, and let her die naturally? She is not currently suffering.

I guess this judge making this decision is very troubling. my heart goes out to the family.

Several courts and other impartial decision makers have reviewed the evidence and reached a decision about Terri's wishes. Admittedly they didn't have the benefit of your speculation. Maybe in cases like this we should have national referndums rather than let courts decide. Just a big old vote: thumbs up or thumbs down. That would be a much better way to decide these things. (Sarcasm on).

onenote

would YOU want to "live" in that condition. My friend, there is diginity in death, let the woman have her dignity back.

Until I am there god only knows!

You know. People starts bashing the minute someone feels different than others. I just seen all of the threads that seemed so cold and I guess I had to speak out how I felt. If I get kicked because I entered into this conversation, that is fine. I will still stand for the democrats no matter how they react to this issue. But I know that democrats are caring people and will continue to do the right thing. To me this is not a democrat or a republican issue. This is a human issue. I am sorry if you do not share my same views. Such is life.

after their brain is dead.
what the hell is so hard about this? is there ANYbody in the world who wants their emnpty shell of a body kept alive for absolutely no good reason at all? to be a burden and a heartbreak for years and years? to have no life at all, to be just a closed system of circulating nutrients?
it is really dumb to say "gee I don't know WHAT Terri would want." look deep inside yourself to find the answer; it's the same for anyone.

MY wish is that God would find some way to make Terri speak one last time, to put into words what we all know she'd say: "please, just let me die in peace." wouldn't that make her dumbass parents gasp. ironically, they'd probably try to shut her up.

The point that tube feeding does not equal brain dead is a good one. I've seen plenty of patients who were alert and oriented on tube feeding. It does happen for a variety of reasons.

Tube feeding is also considered life support. Understand this. Just because it's not a machine does not mean it isn't life support.

This case was litigated for several years and they all ruled in favor of the husband. Terri is in a persistent vegatative state. It was proven in a court of law that Terri verbally opposed being kept alive in such a way. Several witnesses testified as such.

The husband is fulfilling his wife's wishes.

Facts of this case can be found at www.abstractappeal.com

then we are all on life support. We all need food to live. This seems like the mind set.

She CANNOT FEED HERSELF. GET IT?

She CANNOT THINK OR SPEAK. GET IT?

I can feed myself, or think to myself "I'm hungry" or tell someone "please feed me". Terri CANNOT DO THESE THINGS. GET IT?

if you can not feed yourself and speak. Will your loved ones let you starve then?

I hope to GOD they do

And this stupid shit tonight better not interfere with that!

This is a post I made on another board. Maybe you can understand where I am coming from:


I am totally anguished by the debate on the Schiavo case in the House. While I know the "conventional wisdom" is that liberals (which board members would label me) are against the best interests of Terri Schiavo, I really do not fit into that convenient niche. I do NOTagree with the procedure of denying Terri food and hydration. I do NOT agree that the husband should be believed when there is nothing in writing to confirm her wishes. However, I believe that what is currently happening in D.C. is absolutely outrageous! I had to switch from CNN to CSpan because CNN would not allow the hearing of all reps - they seemed to have to "ANALYZE" during the folks who were speaking against the bill - so, I switched to CSpan. This intrusion into a "personal crisis" is so outside the parameters of what the Constitution calls for that I cannot even digest this affront to our values. This is a violation of Federalism, Separation of Powers - and while the decision of the Florida Courts does NOT meet with my approval, I cannot remain silent on the travesty currently going on in D.C. Are we a nation of laws with Federalist principles, Separation of Powers, Checks N Balances, etc., or are we a nation of opportunistic maneuvers????? God HELP this country!

The republicans are over stepping the powers of Government, but I have to wonder about the judges to make this type of decision about Terri without unequivocal proof that this was Terri's wishes.

and the courts have continually chosen to believe him. Ignoring this doesn't not change this fact.

Terri Schiavo is brain dead.

clarity missing - thus it is a perfect thing to be the tool of Repukes.

I think it should be dam obvious if the living will was verbal and not in writing.

I especially like the one where the guy said that all one has to do to
re-negotiate child support payments is to take it before Congress.

They have opened one huge can of worms...I hope they're happy.

They couldn't work it out so now HERE WE ARE!!!

GREED! It's ALWAYS about GREED!!!!

Your child has a cortex. Terry Schiavo's body does not. Terry Schiavo's body is living with only a brain stem. Terry Schiavo's body does not contain a human awareness anymore. Such an awareness needs a cortex to exist. That body has none.

otherwise, the situation is apples and oranges. She stands NO chance for recovery. Feeding tubes CAN be useful in people who can otherwise live SOME SEMBLENCE of a life. She can't.