What are the differences between Kerry and Bush?

I have some honest questions here and this is not intended to be inflamitory, but I'd like some Kerry supporters to answer these questions.

How is Kerry different from Bush re: Iraq?? Bush invaded Iraq and Kerry voted to give Bush that authority. A lot of us anti-war folk just can't bring ourselves to support a candidate who voted to give Bush the means to make war.

How is Kerry different from Bush re: USA PATRIOT Act? Again, Kerry voted for the bill and again enabled Bush to destroy our rights.

What is the difference in voting for a Bonesman who graduated a few years earlier from another Bonesman? And don't give me the typical "Its just a fraternity" crap. Any secret society that has members in the highest levels of Government, Intelligence and Business sectors isn't just your typical frat. Being a Bonesman means being a part of the world's most powerful secret society.

The only thing I can come up with is that Kerry didn't vote for Bush's tax give-aways to the rich (Or did he?) But looking at Kerry's website, and clicking the link to see where he stands on the issues, there is no mention of what Kerry's tax policy would be. Dean wants to repeal all of the tax cuts. Clark wants to eliminate income taxes on people making $50,000 or less. Where does Kerry stand?

Kerry only started becoming popular once he shed his pro-war, pro-special intrest stances to become Mr. Populist. How can I trust him after he's changed his positions so drastically? How can anyone trust him?

These are the reasons I will not support Kerry and I would ask Kerry supporters to try and convince me otherwise.

Thanks

edited for typos

Is there any chance you'd go check out his site and perhaps do a little research into his voting record or shall we just spoon feed it to you. Do you seriously think Bush = Kerry = Bush? If you do, then there's no hope.

Kerry didn't vote for the Iraq War or the USA PATRIOT Act???

Sorry, this is Abuse. You want Mr. Collins in 12b....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

;)

What I'm saying is if you think those 2 votes make Kerry equal to Bush politically and ideologically, then there's no hope for you. Do some research about Kerry that extends beyond the past 24 months and see what you think of him then. Christ, Hannity claims there's no difference between Kerry and Ted Kennedy.

How's that for fuzzy math?
Kerry = Bush
AND
Kerry = T. Kennedy
THEREFORE
T. Kennedy = Bush

Yeah, I don't see that happening. Like I said, do some research.

and come back in a month and YOU can tell us the difference.

Kerry exposed more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history.

THAT doesn't give you a clue to any difference between the two?

Kucinich or Sharpton in the primaries and in the GE hold your nose if you must and vote against Bush. Since the IWR is your live or die issue you better go with the 2 candidates who were and have been staunchly against the Iraq war. Anyone else and you are being a phony.

Is that what you are saying? I'd like some proof please.

neither did Kerry. But they did think that invading Iraq was an option that should be open to Bush. Just like Kerry did.

why did he vote to give Bush the authority to wage it? He could have voted NO because there was no language in the bill that forced Bush to go through the UN, but he didn't. He voted for the war.

It hardly matters how he voted; the thing was sure to carry the body, once proposed.

The manufacture of mountains from mole-hills is a leading industry here, and this is a prime example.

For future reference, remember that simple arithmetic is essential to political commentary; it cannot be done well without the capability of recognizing which number is larger, and which smaller....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

We (as in Dems) still controlled the Senate at the time of the IWR vote in Oct 2002. We only lost the Senate after the 2002 mid term elections where the voters soundly rejected an invertebrate Dem party.


And on edit- I'm sorry but that is just a ridiculous assertion. Would it also be ok for a Dem to vote in favor of a segregation bill since it was going to pass anyway? What about the appointment of a RW nut job to the high Court? What about the elimination of the minimum wage?

Is that how low we've set the bar? It doesn't matter how they voted since it was going to pass anyway?! Just so long as they have a D beside their name, everything's ok- don't look at that voting record? Wow.

After the rose garden ceremony for which I wholly and completely hold Lieberman, Gep and Bayh responsible it was nearly impossible to have any majority against the war.

As I said, Kerry's choices were limited by the removal of Biden/Lugar as an option. Even going to the UN was NOT an anti-war vote.

All the IWR vote did was make the start more predictable in a war that was inevitable given that Bush et al would have lied, manipulated and stopped at NOTHING to get us into it.

I still hold every Dem who voted yes just as responsible, though. I do believe that this vote was a Profiles in Courage moment, and I applaud the Dems, repubs and independent Senators who refused to cower before this administration.

I'm NOT saying that Kerry = Shrub by any means. But I also think he still had a choice after Biden-Lugar was taken off the table by the turncoats- he *could* have voted no. Just like Leahy, Byrd and even Chafee did.

And I acknowledge that I become more strident concerning this issue every day, and I try to temper my feelings as best I can. But while I'm watching the ever increasing military shipments headed to our Port, wondering how many more men and women will be deployed and whether this equipment is really going to Iraq or somewhere else, it becomes increasingly difficult to have any patience with the so-called "leaders" of my own party.

in the White House but in the Pentagon and to weaken the reach and position of the Defense Policy Board.

No matter WHO gets elected more people will need to be shipped out to Iraq both to make the place safe for its people and to relieve those troops who have LONG overstayed their time.

We aren't that far apart but for the meaning we ascribe to the vote and I do respect your position and the position of many here at DU who feel the same.

It isn't as though I am PROUD of the manner in which my team has functioned as the opposition.

Whoops, sorry, this is about Kerry. Carry on. Whew.

Let's see:

The choices they would vet for the supreme court. Bush's will be vetted by the Federalist society, Kerry's will be vetted by the ABA.

KYOTO:

Kerry will re-enlist countries in participating in reducing their output of greenhouse gasses, Bush will leave it to business to "voluntarily comply"

Worker's rights:

Bush eliminated overtime after 8 hours and 40 hours, Kerry supported overtime pay.

Catering to the religious right:

Bush will
Kerry won't

Foreign policy:

Bush made our allies HATE US
Kerry won't

Women's right to choose:
Bush is chipping away at it
Kerry won't

I TRULY doubt the sincerity of this question and you certainly have not looked at the TOTALITY of EITHER of their careers.

which every Kerry supporter has chosen to ignore. And regarding Kerry's foreign policy, he supported a war that has made other nations distrust us. He has ZERO credibility in that department.

I'll give you environment, abortion and judges. Every Democrat has that over Bush, but no one has addressed the things I mentioned above that are most important to me.

belies that fact.

The war has happened. It was wrong but it happened. If you can't bring yourself to vote for him based on this single issue then so be it. What there is to do now is clean the mess up and get the fuck out.

The choices after Gephardt and Lieberman did the ROSE GARDEN ceremony were WAR/NO WAR versus accountability if there WERE a war via the UN resolutions.


Please advise how this very unique thread of yours with your very unique question could NOT be addressed via David Zephyr's thread on the EXACT SAME issues.

I don't resent Kerry's IWR vote because I KNOW a war was going to happen regardless. THe only thing the vote changed was the predictability of the circumstances under which the war started.

Forgive me but after 9/11, I fucking HATE surprises.

till after I put this one up. Sorry. He did a much better job expressing the exact same thoughts I have.

Please elaborate how Kerry has environment over Dean.

Dean traded off the interests of environmentalists in his own state by locking them out of discussions on the development of sensitive lands much the same way Repubs have locked out Dems on certain policies.

Kerry has a stellar record on his votes for environmental issues. Again, check his site and check the senate record going back for YEARS.

...but there are worlds of difference between he and Bush. If he were President, I doubt we'd be occupying Iraq presently (I don't think he would have initiated invasion, Lieberman -for instance- is another matter). He's got a fairly strong voting record on "issues important to Democrats", he speaks in complete sentences and doesn't use too many words that seem made up on the spot. He didn't go AWOL serving in a champaigne unit during a war he supported, instead he served in a war he didn't support. (I myself don't give a squat about military records, shiny medals just don't hypnotize me) He's likely far more responsible in a fudiciary sense than Bush is; I don't think he'd spend our childrens future like a drunken sailor.

So if you have single issues that are more important to you than anything else, he likely wouldn't be your choice, but frankly, the Democratic Party isn't one that sees too many "ideologically pure" rise to the top...

Your fair-minded comments here are much appreciated.

-- language. He can create meaningful sentences and assemble them in context in a given situation across a broad range of considerations, both domestic and international.

By contrast, President Bush is an unchallenged adult, inexpressive, and deficient in critical thinking skills. He is fed cue card factoids which, though bite-size, he still chokes on. He is among those who is dangerous to a democratic society because he "does not know what he does not know."

It seems they both agree on the War Against Iraq, the IWR, the PATRIOT Act, NAFTA, GATT and the WTO, all the new "free trade agreements".

Certainly Kerry is very socially liberal, and his credentials as pro-choice and pro-civil rights are unimpeachable, but what about the rest?

Yet another thing Kerry and Bush agree on. I knew I was forgetting something.

He, along with Kerry, do not think the Iraqi war should have happened. But on everything else, NAFTA, IWR, Patriot Act, WTO, GATT... Bush and Clinton are in general agreement. Does that make them anything alike? Watch 10 minutes of Clinton speak, then watch 10 minutes of Bush speak and tell me.

*

On the Iraq war and our civil liberties we are inflamitory?

So, because of a single vote, Kerry is suddenly exactly like Bush? Give me a fucking break. I'm no Kerry supporter, but this kind of nonsense is just horseshit.

This vote wasn't just on some appropriations bill, it was a vote that sent 500 AMERICANS TO THEIR DEATHS and thousands of Iraqis to their deaths. And you dismiss it as "just a single vote". Pathetic.

and has said over and over and over since.

War as the last resort. Get inspectors in, work with the UN to hold accountable. War as the last resort.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

snip

" Let there be no doubt or confusion as to where I stand: I will support a multilateral effort to disarm Iraq by force, if we have exhausted all other options.  But I cannot - and will not - support a unilateral, US war against Iraq unless the threat is imminent and no multilateral effort is possible."

snip

and that's the level of dignity this flamebait deserves

Adding my 2 cents...

but I can't tell you what it was. Secrecy and all.

While Kerry voted for the IWR, he believes military force should be exercised as a last resort.

Almost all of the Democrats voted for the Patriot Act, which was passed in haste immediately after 911. Kerry opposes the gestapo parts of it and at worst would let it expire if elected.

The Bonesman talk is bullshit. I'm not into UFOs, Bigfoot, or the Illuminati stuff.

Kerry has a superior record on the environment and is also good on tax fairness, health care access, gun control, and the death penalty. (Dean is more conservative than Kerry on *all* of these issues.)

and even I can see the difference.

Regarding the issue of the Iraq war "yes" votes (and this is a topic that recurs frequently on DU): Those who voted for the war resolution such as Kerry and Edwards, are IMO tainted by this, not because I think they really wanted the war but because they allowed themselves to be stampeded by the administration and failed to have the courage of their convictions. They were afraid. Afraid of political consequences for going against the "wartime" president.

This is a major negative against them. It's a problem. Does that mean that I wouldn't vote for Kerry or Edwards in a heartbeat over Bush? Absolutely not, and here's why.

They are not the same as Bush. Because there is a huge difference between one's courage failing and going along with the stampede (ignoble as it is), and initiating the whole action in the first place. (This was alluded to by some posters above.) If any one of you believe that if any of the Democratic candidates had been president this term that they would have pushed for this war complete with the whole ongoing slate of lies and propaganda to achieve it (systematic deception of the populace), then maybe you should just go ahead and vote for GWB. But I doubt if anyone believes that.

No one is going to admit that "we got scared and knuckled under." "We were deceived by the administration" into that vote is a much more palatable (if probably false) cover story. I feel strongly against the war but even on this issue I don't think the "yes" votes mean that the voter is equivalent to Bush. To me the best of all worlds would be to have a candidate who is pure on their antiwar credentials. But it's so important to get GWB out for so many other reasons that if it doesn't work out that way, I have no problem voting for virtually any of the Democratic slate over GWB.

See the crappy logic there?