A question on public school instruction on Good Friday / Purim

For years my school district treated Good Friday as a holiday. When the 2005-2006 calendar was being created, many parents objected that a religious holiday was being treated as a secular one. As a result there is school today.

However, my 9th grade son yesterday told me because apparently many kids are expected to be out of school due to because of Good Friday / Purim.

1. There was no Thursday night homework
2. Teachers were instructed to give no new lessons on Friday, instead to review old material or show movies.

One teacher objected; I have an appointment in the school and will try to visit if his schedule permits. Last night I sent emails requesting verification of the facts as presented to me in to the principal and superintendent, here is the principal's reply:



When I pay for 180 days of instruction (which should be more, but that is another issue) I want 180 days of instruction. To me, modifying the teaching/testing pattern due to religious beliefs is as objectionable as teaching religious dogma.

Your thoughts?

Jewish? Hindu's?

I could care less which religious holiday it is, my question was more about inclusion or exclusion.

I am just mulling over ideas about meeting the needs of the community ... If 95% of the community is Jewish or Islamic or Christian or Hindu ... if these 95% won't be attending is there harm in the aforementioned policies?
In the same vein of thought: in homogeneous communities there would be no need for the policy on days that the full student body is expected to attend...

I don't see a problem with reacting to the reality of a situation...

a spring break and that's standard practice, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but when they decide policy based on religion then it becomes one.
" no tests, quizzes or other assessments may be given on major religious days "
Which major religious days?

This may seem trivial to christians but to atheist and secular persons it's just another reason to exclude minorities.
I would have thought that school administrators would have learned this by now, or maybe they did and just don't care.

"If you don't want to say the pledge just sit there until we're finished."
"If you don't want to join us in prayer, just sit there until we're finished."
"If you don't want to say grace, just sit there until we're finished."

These words were repeated hundreds of times during my childhood, and I can't forget how it made me feel like an outsider.

I love religion ... Perhaps it's better stated: I am really intrigued by it. I'm trying to be really thoughtful about the issue raised ...

Just musing .. it's hard for me to really get my mind around this ...

As an aside I really disagree with "under God" being added to the pledge... I think those proselytizing (at work, school...) need to be told NO and if they don't comply they need to be "charged " with harassment...

But this... I'm trying to think it through...

I have always been fascinated by religion. I never debunk anyone's beliefs because I know how strong faith can be. I just cannot stand the "new and improved" government policies advocated by this administration.
I'll admit political correctness can go to extremes but the fundies are way out of control now.

spring break was always during Holy Week, and Jewish holidays were excused absences for Jewish students. We didn't have any Muslim students, but I assume that the same accommodation would have been made for them.

What about the children?

Xmas = Toys and Santa Claus.

Easter = Toys, candy and pink Easter Bunnies.

"Thank God for a day out of school." The kids say and that was taken from them.

Poor kids.

180

Frankly, if this is a heavily Catholic district, and one knows that a good chunck of your students will be out, it seems common sense - as a teacher - not to make it a day of major deadlines, as it would be setting some kids up to fail... and to do so would appear to be doing the exact same thing but from the opposite direction - punishing kids for their families beliefs.

That said, I think that what I described is rather common sense at the instructional level (eg the teacher planning instruction for the week.) It does seem unusual that a formal policy has been made around the issue.

The last day before a break is often treated (granted informally rather than via policy) as a noninstructional day, because absense levels are often much higher. Again an instructor can take a hard, punitive line - but often it is punishing as child/student for a family decision (to leave early for a vacation). But, if one knows one is going to have a whole lot of kids out - does it make sense to present new information that one will just have to do a second time ... either with the whole class - or in a whole lot of after school individual sessions?

So I do not answer this in terms of religious issues - but in terms of days with predictable high absences.

If it is a religious holiday for a student, give them an excused absence, and allow them to turn in thier homework/projects or make up any tests on the next available schoolday.

Many schools give "holy week" and xmas break off of school, but call it spring break, and winter break, than using a religious term to excuse the time off school.

is another pragmatic way to go. But per instruction - one would still have to go over it a second time for all the kids who missed it, and would those who attended that day have to sit through it twice. I think an enrichment activity might be an easier way, instructionally, to deal with a known high absence day. Again - that is informal rather than a school-wide codified policy. Thus not quite the question the poster is asking (that is - again, I digress... )

I grew up in a college town, so our spring break was timed to the U and never coincided with Easter - so I never equated it with a "holy week" break with a secular name.

NON-religious nature, who takes genuine offense to anything that imposes religion into my life.

Many people don't see it, because the majority of Americans are christians, so they rarely take notice of all the religious propaganda thats all around us every day. The money we carry, the forms of dialect, implied "moral" values, suggestion towards higher power/afterlife, contempt of those of non or other religions.

I have nothing against those who are religious, but I do have major issues with institutionalized religion, and am vehemently opposed to any merging of religion into government or mainstream venues.

religion belongs in church or other PRIVATE venues. and THATS IT!

I have a constitutional right to choose to NOT have religion in my life, and that should include my ability to enter public institutions and not be subjected to it either.

instructional decision about what to do instructionally on a day where I know there will be a high absentee rate... impose religion on you? No where have I advocated anything about imposing religion - indeed I stated that where I grew up Spring break had nothing to do with religion (was tied to a very different calendar).

Your response to my post seems to be a bit of a nonsequitor.

I started off trying to make a more direct response and ended up switching to a rant somewhere in there.

happens to me sometimes...sometimes that ADD kicks in and my point goes flying out the window...

that does happen from time to time around here.... Just took me a bit aback - as I thought we were rather on the same page. :D

That makes it about religion.

welcome to DU!
:toast:

I always appreciate a nice welcome. I've enjoyed my days here, although some are more stress condusive than others. LOL

I do have to say I have become exponentially more informed since I came here and is nice to speak with others who share similar views on many issues and are able to civilly debate on issues others may disagree with me on.

It's refreshing to see many thinking christians also believe in the separation of church and state.

50/50 Christian/Jewish. "Spring break" started today, Good Friday, and kids will be back in school a week from Monday. No comment from the district as to why this is a short week, but the kids certainly don't seem to mind. We begin school the last week of August and end mid-June and get in the required number of days. By the way major Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur are called "local holidays" on our school calendar and are days off for everybody, too.

No tests or new material on Good Friday, Yom Kippur, and Rosh Hoshana (sp?) Seems like common sense to me since so many students miss these days. Of course, explaining to my kids why they have to go to school of Jewish holidays when most of their close friends are absent is challenging.

Perhaps you could arrange some edifying activities so he doesn't develop slothfulness. Or get him a night job so he can earn money--don't want to waste any time!

They're modifying the schedule because many kids will be out of school. One day without testing won't kill him. He may actually have fun.

"To me, modifying the teaching/testing pattern due to religious beliefs is as objectionable as teaching religious dogma"

you replied :

" Perhaps you could arrange some edifying activities so he doesn't develop slothfulness. Or get him a night job so he can earn money--don't want to waste any time!"

Well why didn't I think of that? Having religion used as an excuse to give preferential treatment to your child's classmates can be combated by implementing child labor.

How ingenious.

If I had wanted an argument ... http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/sn-python.html

Period.
If they want to make allowances for religion they should at least PRETEND it's for another reason. That's the amerikan way after all.
Just like posting the 10 commandments is an "historical" display.

the government also has a first amendment duty to allow people to practice their religion. This means, in my view, allowing them to celebrate their holidays.

Im sure they have to make up the lost day at some point also. States aren't lax about letting that slip.

September 6 Krishna Janmashtami

September 12 Day of Ascention (Isra and Miraj) (Islamic)

September 16 Feast of Trumpets (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)

September 16 - 17 Rosh Hashanah (Jewish New Year) 2 days (Jewish)

September 17 Ganesha Chaturthi (Hindu)

September 25 Day of Atonement (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)

September 25 Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) (Jewish)

September 30 - October 1 Sukkot (First & Second Days of Tabernacles) (Jewish)

September 30 - October 6 First Day through Seventh Day of Feast of Tabernacles (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)

October 7 Eighth Day of Tabernacles (Jewish)

October 7 Last Great Day (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God))

October 8 Rejoicing of the Law (Simchat Torah) (Jewish)

October 15 First of Ramadan (Islamic)

October 20 Birth of the Bab (Baha’i)

October 20 - 22 Dussera (Hindu)

October 31 Reformation Day (Protestant, Lutheran)

November 1 All Saints Day (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran)

November 10 - 12 Deepavali (Hindu)

November 12 Birth of the Baha’u’llah (Baha’i)

November 14 Eid El Fitr (End of Fasting) (Islamic)

November 24 Guru Tegh Bahadur’s Martyrdom (Sikh)

November 26 Guru Nanak’s Birth (Sikh)

December 8 Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Roman Catholic)

December 8 First Day of Hanukkah (Jewish)

December 15 Eighth Day of Hanukkah (Jewish)

December 25 Christmas (Christian–general)

January 1 New Year's Day

January 2 Feast of the Epiphany (Roman Catholic)

January 5 Guru Gobind Singh’s Birth (Sikh)

January 6 Christmas (Armenian)

January 6 Feast of the Epiphany (Christian)

January 7 Christmas (Eastern Orthodox)

January 14 Makara Sankranti (Hindu)

January 14 New Year’s Day (Eastern Orthodox)

January 19 Feast of Epiphany (Eastern Orthodox)

January 21 Feast of Sacrifice (Eid of Adha) (Islamic)

February 8 Shrove Tuesday

February 9 Ash Wednesday (Roman Catholic, Protestant)

February 9 New Year (Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese)

February 10 New Year (Islamic)

February 17 Sts’ Vartanantz Day (Armenian)

March 8 Maha Shivaratri (Hindu)

March 21 Feast of Naw-Ruz (Baha’i and Iranian New Year, also Persian New Year and Heritage Day)

March 23 Lent (Eastern Orthodox)

March 24 Holy Thursday (Roman Catholic, Protestant)

March 25 Holi (Hindu)

March 25 Purim (Jewish)

March 25 Good Friday (Roman Catholic, Protestant)

March 27 Easter (Roman Catholic, Protestant)

April 9 Chandramana Yugardi (Hindu)

April 14 Souramana Yugardi (Hindu)

April 13 or 14 Vaisakhi (Sikh)

April 17 Rama Navami (Hindu)

April 21 Birthday of the Prophet Muhammad (Islamic)

April 21 First Day of Ridvan (Baha’i)

April 24 First Day of Feast of Unleavened Bread or Passover (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)

April 24 & 25 First Two Days of Passover (Jewish)

April 24 Memorial Day (Armenian)

April 28 Holy Thursday (Eastern Orthodox)

April 29 Holy Friday (Eastern Orthodox)

April 29 Ninth Day of Ridvan (Baha’i)

April 30 Seventh Day of Feast of Unleavened Bread or Passover (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)

April 30 - May 1 Seventh & Eighth Days of Passover (Jewish)

May 1 Easter (Eastern Orthodox)

May 2 Bright Monday (Eastern Orthodox)

May 2 Twelfth Day of Ridvan (Baha’i)

May 5 Ascension Day (Roman Catholic, Protestant)

May 23 Declaration of the Bab (Baha’i)

May 29 Ascension of Baha’u’llah (Baha’i)

June 9 Ascension Day (Eastern Orthodox)

June 12 Day of Pentecost (World Wide Church of God, United Church of God and Global Church of God)

June 13 - 14 Shavuot (Feast of Weeks) 2 days (Jewish)

June 16 Guru Arjun’s Martyrdom (Sikh)

I will be incorporating that into a letter to the school committee, suggesting they list and honor them ALL!

Do you have a link to the source?

Here's the link: http://www.state.nj.us/njded/genfo/holidays.htm

Actually NJ has an extremely fair policy regarding this.
snip
"According to N.J.S.A. 18A:36 14 through 16 and N.J.A.C. 6:3-9, regarding pupil absence from school because of religious holidays, the Commissioner of Education, with the approval of the State Board of Education, is charged with the responsibility of prescribing such rules and regulations as may be necessary to carry out the purpose of the law.
The law provides that:

Any pupil absent from school because of a religious holiday may not be deprived of any award or of eligibility or opportunity to compete for any award because of such absence.

Pupils who miss a test or examination because of absence on a religious holiday, must be given the right to take an alternate test or examination.

To be entitled to the privileges set forth above, the pupil must present a written excuse signed by a parent or person standing in place of a parent.

Any absence because of a religious holiday must be recorded in the school register or in any group or class attendance record as an excused absence.

Such absence must NOT be recorded on any transcript or application or employment form or on any similar form.

The Commissioner, with the approval of the State Board of Education, is required:

(a) To prescribe such rules and regulations as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of this act.

(b) To prepare a list of religious holidays on which it shall be mandatory to excuse a pupil. The list, however, is to be a minimum list. Boards of education, at their discretion, may add other days to the list for the schools of their districts."
snip

I know this for Judaism and I am assuming it is for other religions. Many of our holidays are celebrations that merited the expectation of children not going to school or parents not working. Old Jewish societies would have crumbled if we had stopped for eight days during Hanukkah, or for the full time of passover. For most holidays it is reasonable to expect that a child who practices the religion that is celebrating will be in school.

It is important to recognize that when it comes to mass education you must cater to the majority of students when it comes to lesson plans. If you will be missing 20 of 30 students for a Christian holiday it is a little different than if you will be missing one for a Zoroastrian celebration.

#17 and 43
Public schools should not "cater" to any of the religions.

I do not think the public school system should be advocating religion but when a very large portion of the students come from a christian household and they "observe" a religious holiday the school would end up mostly empty anyway. It is just a simple matter of courtesy. IMHO As long as they don't go overboard. Two holidays a year hardly seem worth getting too upset over.

"god bless america" and post religious icons in public buildings because the majority of the citizens are christian?

These are different issues. Some of the kids might even be out because their parents are off today & a trip is planned. They might not be spending the day in the religious observances you find so objectionable.

Next year, take a 3-day weekend & do something amusing with your kid.

Yep, the religious right tells us that all the time but we still entertain the ridiculous idea that we have the right to NOT have someone else's personal deity shoved in our face when we're in public.
Funny, isn't it?
NOw that you mention it, the whole Constitution is a laugh riot.

(and after) a secular spring break?

Believe me, as a college teacher, I discovered that no matter how long the spring break was, one week or two weeks, there were students who "had to" leave early and come back late. I soon learned that it was smarter not to schedule tests or major content on such days, because it was more work to give make-up tests (the students always managed to finagle a dean's excuse for such occasions) or repeat the content than to just keep the tests for later. It was no big deal. I scheduled review sessions for those days and did some fun but educational activity like skits or "tasks" (I was a foreign language instructor).

And as for the poster who listed all the potential religious holidays? Fine. No student is going to celebrate ALL those holidays, and if you've really got a Zoroastrian student (of Iranian or Indian heritage) who misses the Zoroastrian holidays and a couple of Muslim students who miss the Muslim holidays, big hairy deal.

Just because you're hostile to religion doesn't mean that your preference has to prevent other people from expressing their beliefs.

To you, any expression of religious belief that is visible to you is "cramming it down your throat." Well, you may be surprised to hear this, but the majority of religious people aren't even thinking about cramming anything down your throat when they celebrate their traditoins. They're just doing what they do.

Maybe the solution is for all the atheists to get together and declare Robert Ingersoll Day or something.

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I think she was talking about students missing school because of those holidays, not students being forced to skip those holidays. Dealing with the results of one or two students missing a day of class is, as she says, no big deal. Dealing with the results of half the student body missing it is.

She summed up her opinion quite well by posting:
"Maybe the solution is for all the atheists to get together and declare Robert Ingersoll Day or something."
The only thing missing was the "you people"

I simply repeated what she posted and my rebuttals.

Yes, I did teach college, and I still don't see what the big deal is if a school accepts the reality that a significant percentage of its students are going to be absent on a religious holiday. In a heavily Jewish area, most of the students will be absent on Yom Kippur. In a heavily Catholic area, most of the students will be absent on Good Friday. That's just a fact.

Now if you're saying that a teacher should potentially flunk 90% of the students in the class just so you (not most atheists, by the way, but you) don't get your knickers in a bunch over your kid missing a day of testing or major content, then I really think you need to ask yourself why you're so hostile.

By the way, as a teacher, I know that a day of review can be just as beneficial, or even more so, than a day of new content.

Where did I imply that " a teacher should potentially flunk 90% of the students in the class just so you (not most atheists, by the way, but you) don't get your knickers in a bunch over your kid missing a day of testing or major content, then I really think you need to ask yourself why you're so hostile."

I am objecting to the PRINCIPAL of the HIGH SCHOOL using RELIGION to justify their policy. Hence, my post:

#15 "If there is usually less work handed out before a spring break and that's standard practice, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but when they decide policy based on religion then it becomes one."

and

#28 "The principal used the word "religious, that makes it about religion".

and

#17. "They were stupid to refer to religion. Period. If they want to make allowances for religion they should at least PRETEND it's for another reason. That's the amerikan way after all.
Just like posting the 10 commandments is an "historical" display.""

Matter of fact, try reading the OP, the principal's email read:

"Our District Policy established by the School Committee says that no tests, quizzes or other assessments may be given on major religious days"

and the op posted:

" To me, modifying the teaching/testing pattern due to religious beliefs is as objectionable as teaching religious dogma."

Hmm, could it be that he's hostile too? Does that mean there's more than me? Yeah, funny thing about minorities, we always seem to "get our knickers in a twist" when it comes to discrimination.
Fortunately for the "oppressed" christian majority, god's other son, * is in charge and you can get away with that crap now.

That innocuous policy (I don't see how it hurts atheists' children at all, since they probably aren't eager to have tests or major assignments due ANY day, kids being kids) is a far cry from what used to happen in this country. This evening, a member of my choir (I sing at an Episcopal church) said that when she was in high school, the churches in her town used to have a joint Good Friday service at which the high school choir would sing.

And please do not lump me together with the Bushbots.

The Bushboy is NOT God's son. Quite the opposite. Anyone who thinks the Bushboy is of God is seriously deluded.

if you hadn't called my defense of separation of church and state "hostile" to religion. I have agreed with you many times on DU but this time I cannot. I realize this is no excuse for baiting you, and I apologize for that.
I have never once mocked or derided anyone's religious beliefs, I have no room in my world for intolerance of any kind. I would never advocate the infringement of your right to practice your religion, in fact I would soundly oppose it.
Schools that make policies advocating any religion are guilty of discrimination. For those who are excluded it is not "innocuous".
I never used to be this militant but these last four years have emboldened the religious right. They keep pushing their agenda because they know that they can get away with it. Anyone who stands up to them is branded anti-religious (completely ignoring the fact that many of the opposed are theists themselves). We need to remind them that the Constitution protects the rights of the one even when they seem to be outnumbered by the ideology of the majority.
If I seem abrasive perhaps it's because I'm not feeling particularly charitable to members of the moral majority today. My work day started with listening to our resident christian's comment "Michael Jackson, I hope they hang that queer ni**er" to which his fellow kool-aid drinkers agreed and then waddled to the back office where they could discuss their hatred and bigotry in peace. They've decided it's necessary to avoid talking like that in front of me because I tend to get a little perturbed (to put it mildly). I am considered to be "morally-challenged" because I am not christian. Whenever my next-door neighbor talks about someone with questionable ethics she says they're not christian or they're not real christians.
DU is my haven because it's one of the few places left in this country where diversity is welcomed.

I'm a freshman in high school right now. From my standpoint, I love the day off of sorts. However, I understand where you are coming from. No matter what I want my child learning. I think we need to be teaching math before we're praying. I'm personally a Christian, and still don't understand why people object to not being allowed to pray. It's not as bad as people make it out to be. It's not like I can't pray before I eat or something like that. And only if I'm managing to in a highly obtrusive manner should I be silenced. But classes shouldn't be praying before class out loud. Why not teach?

Are you really a freshman? Your insight puts many adults to shame.
Welcome to DU!
:hi:

and for that matter, Christmas is a religious holiday. I take it off, because I'm self-employed and choose to do so, but I believe all government employees should be required to work. It violates the separation of church/state clause.

I have no problem with school kids respecting their religious beliefs. However, government should not use this religious holiday as an excuse for a free day. Public schools should remain open on Christmas. Whether students choose to attend would be an individual choice. It seems many people get all up in arms when the church/state clause is violated in other instances, but seem to conveniently ignore it it if it benefits them with a freebee, cloaked in the guise of a "seasonal holiday." Ironic and disingenous, huh?

It wasn't counted as one of the 180 days of instruction. It's a sad choice, either you waste a day of school or get a day off for a religious holiday that you may or may not observe.

It seems we are perpetually searching for a balance between the two and the pendulum will only swing so far before it reverses to seek its center. Before you call me naive, I do believe we should be vigilant concerning the State overstepping it's boundaries, but we should also be sensitive and tolerant to those who believe differently.
After all, isn't that what America is about?