Fuck em all-I vote principle and integrity-now if only my vote counted

I hate the dino's who vote "pragmaticly".

Do they raise their children to compromise with the devil? Are they suggesting we do the same? No, they are compromised! each and every one of them. At least the repugs are wearing the foxes fur as opposed to dino's being foxes in sheeps clothing.

We need to focus on restoring ballot integrity so we can get the representation we demand. I'm all too afraid however that with no real power or representation with a voice that this change can only come about through a massive demonstration of the peoples will or through patriotic guerilla action.

because we can sit back and vote our conscience -- even if the candidate has no chance in hell of winning -- knowing that our friends and neigbhors will pick up the slack and vote Dem.

Hell, Back during the Clinton years I supported Nader due to his anti-corporatist stance. Nafta pissed me off.

But without run-off ballots, this behavior results in dire consequences for our country. Look what happened in 2000. Look at the heat put on Nader as a result. He's not viewed as the advocate of the little guy that he was once was. He's viewed as a disruptor. A tool for the other side, working off of those who would "vote their principle and integrity".

It's great to have principle and integrity; it does not win elections, but it's a great way to make sure you can always seethe in rightous indignation against abusive powers that actually do win the elections.

to agree with you on every single issue every time?

Do you expect them to fight every single wrong that they see or do you expect them to pick their fights?

No they don't have to always agree with me.

But if they see awrong they had better fight to make it right.

If they have a job to represent people then they better represent the majority of those people, not some special interest who paid them.

When my daughter was in high school, one of her teachers lowered her grade for some reason that was not justified. Without telling my daughter ahead of time, I spoke with the teacher about the matter.

When my daughter found out what I had done, she said I'd made a mistake. She said that if I had kept out of it, she would have gone to the teacher, acted humble, and got the grade changed. But since I had gone in, the teacher had to stand firm to save face and keep the grade as it was.

In other words, sometimes other people know more about how to handle a difficult situation than we do.

Sometimes people enable their abusers by making excuses for them.

Are we talking about children or adults anyway?

Children should be taught to be responsible for their actions and when they become adults it is their peers that they have to answer to.

"Do they raise their children to compromise with the devil?"

I raised my children to think for themselves even if they disagreed with me. I learned that my children were sometimes right and I was sometimes wrong.

In other words, passionate and intense as I am, I do recognize that everything is not all black or all white. I get really, really angry when I see a Bush sticker on a car (and I often do). I think the people driving these cars are suckers but I don't think they are all completely evil. There may be one tiny redeeming feature in one of the people (out of 1000) with this sticker!

I hate the dino's who vote "pragmaticly"

...and I hate the dinos who vote exclusively on "principle and integrity" (whatever THAT means to you) and pat themselves on the back as the GOP wins again.

The problem with the faux "principle and integrity" crowd is that the terms are just a nice way of saying that if the Democrats don't pass my liberal purity tests, I'm going to punish them (and in effect, the entire Democratic party.)

You say "fuck 'em?" We say it back to you. Voted Nader, did you? Now those were a bunch of DINOS!

not on those who voted for someone else, Dem, Green, whatever. And the GOP does a grand job of motivating those voters by having a consistent message, acting on that message on every possible occasion and trumpeting those acts (votes on legislation or for candidated for instance - even when those are losing votes or candidates) at every opportunity. Thus, they are seen as both reliable and predictable - both attributes which most people find comforting.

The Dems, having no core values, are inconsistent and unreliable, both negative attributes that sum up as untrustworthy. As long as that continues to be the case, the Dems, and Progressives in general will win an occasional battle while continuing to lose the war.

People admire a fighting underdog, they have contempt for one that rolls over and whimpers. And that is just what the Dems do every time they endorse/run/support/vote for candidates who sell out on choice, or bankruptcy, or living wages, or the environment. They solidify their reputation as standing for nothing, and give people another reason to say "at least I know where s/he (being the R) stands - and then go vote.

I spent almost 30 years in Maryland and it's the Dems that pass living wage laws & Repubs that veto them.

You didn't know that? Well, no wonder. The Repubs own the media.

Dems do a lot of good things that either don't get reported or are presented in a twisted way.

If you want things to change, stop whining about Dems and get to work yourself! It's going to take lots and lots of little people to counter the millions and millions of dollars the Repubs have.

For example there's another DU thread about how Focus on Family is calling people in Louisiana saying that Dems are going to block qualified judges. Dems have a tiny fraction of the money that Repubs have and I doubt very much that any Dem can afford to make the same number of calls that Focus on Family (a right wing religious organization that is probably tax exempt).

There's also a DU thread about how Tweety is interviewing a Repub on the John Bolton nomination about why Dems are opposing Bolton. The question is why couldn't Tweety ask a Dem this question. Once again the Dems show courage (as well as 3 Repubs) but the media is presenting this courage as political partisanship just the way Bush wants them to.

There really aren’t any Democrats and Republicans, or Freepers and DUmmies, or D.I.N.O.’s and R.I.N.O.’s, or borders, or the one right religion.

There is the Ruling Class and the rest of us Schmucks. And the sooner we stop fighting each other and rise up, demanding our rights the more likely we will get them. Blind Obedience is a dangerous tool and one that is used against us very frequently.

Nothing is black and white. And No one is perfect. But there is no compromise to be made between pragmatism and idealism. When a representative, party, or group stops defending your rights or representing your best interests you should try to make them aware of that. If that fails, and you are ignored then you should move on to someone who will.