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I smell a Coup in the early stages.

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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:49 AM
Original message
I smell a Coup in the early stages.
coup d'état
A coup d'état, or simply a 'coup', is the sudden overthrow of a government, usually done by a small group that just replaces the top power figures. It is different from a revolution, which is staged by a larger group and radically changes the political system. The term is French for "a sudden stroke, or blow, of a nation". The term coup can also be used in a casual sense to mean a gain in advantage of one nation or entity over another; e.g. an intelligence coup. By analogy, the term is also applied to corporations, etc; e.g. a boardroom coup.

Since the unsuccessful Coup attempts of Kapp in 1920, and of Hitler in 1923, the German word "Putsch" is as much used as the term "Coup d'Etat", even in France (such as the Putsch of November 8, 1942 and the Putsch of April 21, 1961, both in Algiers).

Tactically, a coup usually involves control of some active portion of the military while neutralizing the remainder of a country's armed services. This active group captures or expels leaders, seizes physical control of important government offices, means of communication, and the physical infrastructure, such as streets and power plants. The coup succeeds if its opponents fail to dislodge the plotters, allowing them to consolidate their position, obtain the surrender or acquiescence of the populace and surviving armed forces, and claim legitimacy.

Coups typically use the power of the existing government for its own takeover. As Edward Luttwak remarks in his Coup d'état: A practical handbook: "A coup consists of the infiltration of a small but critical segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder." In this sense, use of military or other organized force is not the defining feature of a coup d'état. Any seizure of the state apparatus by extra-legal tactics may be considered a coup, according to Luttwak.


OK, now let's take a look at what's happening, in context:

1) Control of some active portion of the military:
.....Recent reports of harassment of non-christians in Air Force Academy
.....Growth of Christian Militia groups
.....Evangelical officers moved into positions of authority.
2) Infiltration of a small but critical segment of the state apparatus
.....Slow takeover of all three branches of government.
.....Placement of true-believers in most government agencies.
.....Purges of possibly disloyal people from those same agencies.
.....Slow takeover of courts with sympathetic judges.
3) Means of communication
.....Fox News (enough said)
.....Mainstream News sources being pushed, strongarmed or bought.
.....Control of means of dissemination by small group of corporations.
4) Physical infrastructure, such as streets and power plants
.....Homeland Security, "terrorist threats" can prompt takeover of control.

Am I moving into tinfoil-hat land, or are these things we really should be concerned about? Does anybody else see this as a slow move to place all the pieces for possible future use?
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Kerrytravelers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. This may at one time have been considered tin foil hat...
... but I think, reviewing all these people have done, it's no longer in the tin foil hat range, but will be read someday by future generations when studing the collaspse of a democratic super power.
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jo35042 Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Tin Hat or Thinking cap?
I am afraid...I am very afraid.

Wish we could get a few more folks to notice.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. Technically the coup took place Nov 3, 2000. But yes, you're right.
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 09:54 AM by FreepFryer
Be very wary.

Befriend Christians in your life. Engage them in discussion and debate. Be respectful of their feelings, while reminding them of the role of the United States in protecting others experiencing religious persecution.

Reject and combat 'religionization' of the secular parts of your life.

Raise money for secular causes like school fund drives, public television, the ACLU and other civil rights organization, and local and national political groups that you feel are truly in opposition to this assault by zealous Evangelicals.

The facts are emerging, they are very disturbing, and those responsible will be exposed and made to answer, whether in this life or their cherished 'afterlife'.
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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Nov 3, 2000 was another step towards the final goal.
The final public takeover will not, I think, be undertaken until they are sure that there is no possibility that it can be effectively fought, or if they see the possibility that they might be exposed and possibly beaten. If a coup is indeed being planned, and all this is not just a confluence of a number of different sources who's actions, just coincidentally, are moving towards the same final outcome, then slow and steady has been working for them so far.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. The rallying point is the US Constitution-not PATRIOT ACT or Executive
Orders by BFEE.
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. Why do they need a coup?
Lord Bush is already King.
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jo35042 Donating Member (139 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Hey, excuse me......
I am a Christian, let's not make that a dirty word. I am a Liberal Democrat. I support public education, the Arts, the ACLU, I am pro choice and also a Deacon in my church.
Please don't make it sound like every "thinking" person is not religious. For crying out loud. Jesus was not a conservative, right wing nut job, He was a bleeding Liberal.
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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I didn't say Christian...
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 10:09 AM by ltfranklin
I said Evangelical. However, I apologize for perhaps leaving the impression that I meant all Christians. I was referring to a particular brand of Evangelical Christian, tending to be intolerant towards those who don't beleive exactly as they do, and are willing to "cut corners" if it means they end up running things. And I think you will agree that there are plenty of those around, and not a few in positions of power.

Edit: I reread my post and did see I mentioned Christian Militias and harassment of non-Christians, but those are references to either subgroups of Christianity or of actions...not implications of unity of purpose or thought of Christians in general.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. The rightwing Evangelical Christians
are NOT Christians but they are hypocrates, bigots and in many cases, criminals.

I see little of Jesus in their actions.


One of the historical paradoxes I reflect on was how some of the worst prosecutors of innocent people during the wars of religeon in Europe were from the Dominican and Franciscan orders.

Where was the charity of St Francis or St. Dominic during the Inquisition ?

It kind of reminds me of what Goerthe said about Napoleon. Something like " Napleon wanted Virture but since she was not to be had, he got power instead."
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. A cautionary tale for anyone in politics
religious or not. Power corrupts.
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
53. so
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. That's not what was said. Instead of crying 'not me', look at those...
...who would misuse your Savior to conquer the world.

They are the ones besmirching your God and your faith.
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podnoi Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. Christian Bigotry - Why it hurts our cause
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 04:53 PM by podnoi
I understand why the confusion as the Pharisee Evangelicals have been plundering the name of Christ and the Christian belief system. But think about this... Replace the word "Christian" in the post to "Jews" or "Hispanics" It is Bigotry.

And the way to put this group down is not to fight Christianity, but to Join the maligned Christians and call the Evangelicals on the Carpet.
Most of the layety believe they are following Christ because the only ones they hear from are their leaders. The more talk in society of the inconsistancies of their beliefs with what Christ believed the more they lose credibility and followers.

That is why it is important in the progressive community not to get into a "war" with Christianity. It is against our own interests and only serves to strengthen the opposition.
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Podnoi comment
Very wise, the words you wrote. Thank you.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. The GOP frame: Christians v. Democrats. Don't perpetuate it.
"Befriend Christians in your life. Engage them in discussion and debate. Be respectful of their feelings, while reminding them of the role of the United States in protecting others experiencing religious persecution."

My above post is ANYTHING but bigoted, and I'd happily substitute 'Jews', 'Muslims' 'Wiccans' or 'Church of Bobians' in there with a pure heart.

The opposition is framing this as Christians v. Democrats, and it's a fake frame.

Don't perpetuate it.
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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. It's not Christians v. Democrats
It's actions vs beliefs.

You have every right to your beliefs. You may even choose to place you beliefs before your country, your Constitution and your Republic. You just do NOT have, in this country, the right to impose your beliefs on others without their permission, not to my way of thinking.

And we're not talking about obtaining the permission of 50.000001 percent of the voting population as a means to impose those beliefs on the rest. The founders didn't create a pure democracy, this is a representative democracy, with safeguards that were created to try to ensure that the basic principles of the Republic would be protected, so that any temporary incursion into oppression might be reversed as wiser heads eventually prevailed.

The problem today is that there are those that are proceeding to attempt to remove those safeguards. They hope, I think, to eventually modify the governing principles on which this nation runs in order to make it practically impossible to revert to those governing principles that serve to protect us from oppression.
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Benson Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
63. I don't see a Theocratic 'coup' comming.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 03:28 PM by Benson
Americans will not set aside freedom so easily.

I do not think a coup is in the planning at all.

All we are seeing is a major support group for the GOP, getting a few perks for their support.

This is NOT a takeover. There are no massed minions ready to repress the progressives. No one is informing Tammy Fae Baker that DU has uncovered the plot. No 700 club operatives are on their way to silence DU (and the people who are posting in this thread...

THIS -COUP- IS A PARANOID FANTASY!
Let me be the first to distribute the tin-foil hats.

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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. Bleeding Liberal is right - radically seen at that.
I think I know what seemed misconstrued by you, with regards to the other posters Innocent usage of the word "Evangelical." Meaning, he / she meant nothing by it, just not knowing the true meaning of a word that's been HI-JACKED by the right-wing nut jobs.

Felt same way months back, like my religion was hi-jacked, stolen, making a dirty name out of it. No longer, thankfully got a grip on it.

WAY WAY TOO MUCH extremists changes coming down the pike right now, daily at that. We're all in a state of confusion which is why we're all out here - to help one another stay focused so that coup doesn't throw us off.

Hope I explained that properly. :hi: and :hug: to all!

P.S. Coup thing has been on my mind too... that Sunset Commission (under latest/greatest tonight out here) is frightening. Read it. Shew!

:scared: but trying not to be!
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
62. There are lots of normal Christians --
-- who are serious about Christ's teachings. These right wing nuts are not that. What does Mark Maron call them? Christo-fascists. What they are doing has nothing whatsoever to do with what Christ taught, and there are, I believe, lots of Christians who are getting a little bit upset that their faith has been hijacked. In fact, just about everything they are doing is decidedly un-Christian.

Please don't be overly-sensitive. People use a kind of shorthand and aren't always clear about which Christians they are referring to. But most thinking people, Christian and non-Christian, generally know the difference, and those that are making the mistake of following these Christo-fascists will see the light, if they haven't already. Many Christian ministers are beginning to speak out against this nonsense.

Christ certainly wasn't in favor of fascism, and separated state from faith pretty clearly. Who were those guys that were the established, wealthy Jews? The Pharisees? He didn't approve of them, I think. Sorry I don't know my Bible better, but Christ criticized them.
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. They can't fool everyone forever
I maintain that the bulk of the American people will eventually realize they have been had and will react angrily. Historically responses in such situations have been quite dramatic. All we can do now is hope violence is avoided.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. This CANNOT be violent. If it's violent, EVERYONE loses.
The State has the power to eradicate us all. The recapture of power in this unbalanced situation must be nonviolent and consensual.

Otherwise, we will tear the country apart.
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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Violence may be the catalyst.
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 02:00 PM by ltfranklin
It may well be that an eventual, violent reaction to these small steps will be the blasting cap that sets all their plans in motion. Let's do an example:

For the next few years until 2008, these small steps place more and more power into the hands of these people. More and more indignities have been heaped on those not in the conservative and evangelical groups. Finally, election day 2008, and an election is stolen, this time fairly obviously but in a way that cannot be immediately proven. Protests spring up across the country, acts of violence erupt that cannot be proven to be due to the protestors, but will certainly be blamed on them. Police action is followed by National Guard, followed by Martial Law declared in major cities, mostly in blue states. Emergency action by those in power not only make it impossible to investigate the election, but result in the incarceration of the leadership of those opposing the government. Emergency powers granted by a Congress composed of true believers, syncophantic minions and cowed opposition. Major changes to bill of rights, police powers, etc.

And the deed is done! Now, the winners fight among themselves over the spoils, but it still makes us losers.
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FreepFryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Exactly. That's why it must remain NON-VIOLENT.
It has always worked in human history that great despots are undone by a unified, non-violent grassroots opposition.

To act in a violent way against this state is to hang up one's hat.

Remain dedicated to peaceful change!
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FourStarDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
42. You could have massive work-stoppages, and I can see violence as a
possibility too, at a certain point *if* average working people stop being compliant and wake up.. I also don't support violence as a means of change, but I also do not see them (the Bush fascists) succeeding as easily as you do in imposing martial law.

Especially in major cities and blue states in general, it will be near impossible to impose martial law. For one thing, because of the second ammendment, a tremendous amount of people own firearms (and I'm thinking that maybe it is a hellava good thing that we do have firearms). Secondly, the organizing the quantity of enforcers (National Guard? Unionized police officers?, exhausted soldiers with low morale?)that would be neccessary to impose martial law will be very difficult imo.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. "Eventually" is a long time.....
and we're in Year 25 of the Reagan Era.

Here's the thing:
"Control of means of dissemination by small group of corporations." The mechanism of control is as (or more?) important than who's pushing the buttons.

The compliance of Americans is the problem. Compliance with control that is reinforced by the mechanism of control ("means of disemination").
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. As long as
they control the media and keep rewriting history they can.
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. sorry... duplicate post
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 02:07 PM by ailsagirl
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jfern Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
47. What happened that day?
Election day was Nov. 7th that year.
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
52. yes one coup did
but there are more hitting us now.

They are stronger than in 2000 and are "in-fighting" because like any group when it comes to theocracy and such what happens ?
They start fighting about who is right .


Same thing with the greed factor. Who gets the MOST power !


http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
9. While the out come is still in question
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 10:16 AM by amber dog democrat
I have no doubt there are forces in play that are moving to wards creating some kind of state centered theocracy here in the US and they will do it if we let them.

I don't doubt that to some degree or another all of this is really happening or has already occurred. The real question is are we going to allow them to succeed?

Just understand we are dealing with a relentless adversary that has no principles beyond seizing power and keeping it. Every age has its dark challenge. This may be a side show to the greater issue of ecological collapse and social mayhem and breakdown... but that does not mean we can allow ourselves to be complacent in the local political arena. I am watching with some pleasure the hammering the hammer is taking on and how it goes to wards tarnishing RE PUGS. I note the Chimp is not successful in his privatized Social Security dog and pony show and how Bolton is caught in the light of unwanted scrutiny. The Chimp administration is not infallible
but maybe its an indication of things to come. Worse things to come.

I am not sure what the emerging form will be, Neocon? Fundamentalist Theocracy?
Neocon theocratic fascism ? but something will coalesce out of our current septic whirlpool and take form.

Short answer is NO I do not think this qualifies as tin foil hat material.

When I think about the 10th anniversary of the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City by someone outraged over the death of the Branch Davidians
( a mass murderer motivated by the death of members of a spin -off religious
cult ) , I have a hard time determining what is rational and what is not.
I am coming to believe most people are NOT rational and anything is possible.
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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Neocon? Fundamentalist Theocracy?
I think each group taking part in this thinks that their faction is the one that'll end up with the power in the end. The Neocons think they'll be the ones on top, and they can control the fundamentalists. The Fundamentalists dream of a Theocracy (with them being the Theocrats) and the Neocons can always be "dealt with" later. The Illuminati may figure they can use their mind control powers to rule both factions. Ok, the Illuminati may be a bit much, but there's definitely multiple factions working towards a common end, purposely or not. And lots and lots of "running dog lackeys", Congressmen, Bureaucrats, Corporate-types, etc. who go along for some short-term benefits, but don't think about the long term cost, what they're going to have to pay eventually for what they get now.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I think of what happened right after the French and Russian Revolutions
There was a period of uncertainty and confusion before the ball landed on 22 Black and all the chips were raked in. And you are right - its all about POWER.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Yes
They're using each other for their own agenda and they may come across something that will keep one group from taking over or they'll both make each group pop and go away. The "religious right" wants to make this country one religion country and do away with the Constiution and Bill of Rights and make their own rules to where we're all zombie's under their control. The neocons could care less and just use them for votes and do something here and there to make them keep voting (as in the anti-abortion rally earlier this year and Terri Schavio) and then when an election comes around (whether midterm or not) they'll talk about abortion and gay's but they won't do anything about it because they won't have anything to talk about other wise. So sooner or later one will get fed up with the other by not doing something one group wants. Only my question is when will it happen? They seem to be on a roll now and that's what worries me. I've never seen the Bush administration work like this.
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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I think the question is...
...will they hang together long enough to take control, and THEN fight over who actually runs it; Or will they misfire and begin savaging each other before they get to the finish line. Unfortunately, even if they don't totally succeed, they'll have made a big enough mess to make it VERY difficult to recover. We may well end up with total anarchy, because the government will be unable to provide ANY of the functions it is supposed to...scorched earth, baby!
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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. or will they win
AND I say that because it seems as though every day there is a little more creeping towards 1984. Reread it and ponder on the similarities if you don't think so.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. nothing tin foil about it
2000 was a coup.

this is no longer the early stages.
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. The coup started in November 1963
and its construction has continued slowly for all of these decades. And the Bush family has had a tentacle involved in every single despicable thing that has occurred in this country's government ever since. We're in the end stages of the coup, as far as I can tell.

And frankly, I don't think there will be a smidgen of violence or resistance as we become an official theocracy. I've seen numerous polls that show that a massive majority in this country believes in heaven and the virgin birth and all sorts of other mostly-Christian ideas: making Christianity our official government religion won't bother this majority at all (even if it is not true Jesus-based Christianity). It will only bother those of us who are not Christian, and we're a big minority.

I also am something of a crepe hanger, in that I think it's probably too late to fix anything. Won't stop me from fighting it, though!

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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I totally agree with this!
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ailsagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. You beat me to it, patsified
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 02:07 PM by ailsagirl
I often think what a different world it would be had JFK been allowed to live.

It's a hard thing to forget.
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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. If I was a Christian...
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 02:28 PM by ltfranklin
(not that there's anything wrong with that), but if I was a Christian, I certainly wouldn't want Christianity to be our official government religion. Why? Because how long would it be before one particular sect of Christianity became predominant, followed soon by pushing all other sects out. Why do you think there's so many DIFFERENT christian churches, temples, tents, storefronts, etc? Because eventually, some subset of a church decides they dislike the notions of the other subset of the same church that they decide they better get away from those pagans and form their own church!
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. True, ltfranklin; but do you really expect thinking Christians to
fight for atheists, agnostics, pantheists, Wiccans, Janeists, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. etc.? How many thinking Christians are there who would literally, materially fight the installation of a Christian theocracy? It's been my experience that people only get angry enough to fight when they themselves are experiencing pain in their very own households. So I'd really like to see some numbers (if there were a way) on how many members of the Christian majority would fight for the non-Christian minority if a Christian theocracy were fully installed here. It's so easy to sit back and not lift a finger when YOUR group is not experiencing any pain. (And if you look up "Easy" in the dictionary, there is a cross-reference to "Average American!" We're spoiled, and I do include myself on that.)

I totally agree with what you wrote, by the way. I just am not sure how many thinking Christians there are who would "get it" that their own brand of Christianity would be at risk. Especially if life is fairly comfortable for them under the new Christian theocracy?

Criminy, I sure am cynical as hell today?!?! LOL It's rainy and cold here, perhaps it's affecting my mood.

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xmas74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I am a highly liberal Christian.
I do not want an "Official" government religion. And I would fight for the right for all to be able to worship (or not worship) as they wish. Once one group's rights are taken away, others will follow.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Exactly...remember Martin Niemoller's quote?
"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."


Martin Niemoller
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. There are a lot of Christians on DU
who would fight tooth and nail against the installation of a RW theocracy.

Liberal Christians deal every day with attacks both from fundies who consider them heretics and from anti-religious folk who consider them RW sympathizers.

Believe me, we know better than anyone how little room there would be for us in a "Christian" theocracy.
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Extend a Hand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
61. well said!
thanks.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. You are so welcome!
:)
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
65. all Christians who ARE NOT fundamentalist are under constant
attack from the Dobsons, Falwells, etc

we would be/are being the first to be targeted and later eliminated
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. I'm with you too.
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Hard Attack Donating Member (264 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. .
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Slow motion cancer.
Edited on Sat Apr-23-05 06:35 PM by Disturbed
What is happening is that the Coup is creeping along in slow mo. It will take over before the majority see it then it will be too late to excise.

Here is one slow mo that is in progress.

Bush's "Sunset Commission" could eliminate Federal Programs



Published on Saturday, April 23, 2005 by Rolling Stone
Bush's Most Radical Plan Yet
With a vote of hand-picked lobbyists, the president could terminate any federal agency he dislikes

by Osha Gray Davidson
�
If you've got something to hide in Washington, the best place to bury it is in the federal budget. The spending plan that President Bush submitted to Congress this year contains 2,000 pages that outline funding to safeguard the environment, protect workers from injury and death, crack down on securities fraud and ensure the safety of prescription drugs. But almost unnoticed in the budget, tucked away in a single paragraph, is a provision that could make every one of those protections a thing of the past. The proposal, spelled out in three short sentences, would give the president the power to appoint an eight-member panel called the "Sunset Commission," which would systematically review federal programs every ten years and decide whether they should be eliminated. Any programs that are not "producing results," in the eyes of the commission, would "automatically terminate unless the Congress took action to continue them."

The administration portrays the commission as a well-intentioned effort to make sure that federal agencies are actually doing their job. "We just think it makes sense," says Clay Johnson, deputy director for management at the Office of Management and Budget, which crafted the provision. "The goal isn't to get rid of a program -- it's to make it work better." In practice, however, the commission would enable the Bush administration to achieve what Ronald Reagan only dreamed of: the end of government regulation as we know it. With a simple vote of five commissioners -- many of them likely to be lobbyists and executives from major corporations currently subject to federal oversight -- the president could terminate any program or agency he dislikes. No more Environmental Protection Agency. No more Food and Drug Administration. No more Securities and Exchange Commission.

"Ronald Reagan once observed, 'The closest thing to immortality on this earth is a federal government program,' " says Rep. Kevin Brady, a Republican from Texas who has been working for the past nine years to establish a sunset commission. "We need it to clear out the deadwood." Without many of those programs, however, American consumers, workers and investors would be left to the mercy of business. "This is potentially devastating," says Wesley Warren, who served as a senior OMB official in the Clinton administration. "In short order, this could knock out protections that have been built up over a generation."

Others note that the provision goes beyond anything attempted by conservatives in the past. "When you look at this," says Marchant Wentworth, a lobbyist for the Union of Concerned Scientists, "it's almost like the Reagan administration was a trial run." ---

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0423-21.htm
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
38. I thought this had been accomplished already with
the final feather in cap during the 2000 election... no?
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ltfranklin Donating Member (852 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
39. I've started a new thread on the Military aspect.
As I said, I've started a second thread on the military aspect:

I smell a coup, part 2...The Military

If you'd like to comment or just think about it, I invite you to participate.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
45. Dominionism: The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup
Fundamentalist Radical Clerics such as Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson are not merely medieval throwbacks or misguided religious hacks. They are part of a well organized subversionary movement known as "Dominionism".

Dominionism constitutes a serious threat to American Democracy. These Radical Clerics have developed and are executing a detailed plan to gradually replace the free, secular democratic society of the United States with a Theocracy.

It is critical that people become aware of the extreme agenda these people have for the United States and ultimately for the world. The results of the 2004 Presidential Election were not a fluke or something that was drummed up over a period of months. It has been in planning for over 20 years, and what we are seeing take place now is, in the words of Katherine Yurica, "the swift advance of a planned coup".

The articles below are critical for understanding the Dominionist movement; for realizing how real and how detailed their plans are; and to become aware of how far they have come toward achieving their goals.

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm
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Godai Kyoko Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
46. Is the military all the sudden mad at Bush?
Right now there isn't any anger in the military over the results of the Democratici process, as there was in Chile or as there is now in Venuezuala or Russia. (They actually did a poll of the commissioned military in Russia and found 70+% of them upset about how things are going there)


And what happened in Germany was very weird anyway. You had an election in 1932 in which a majority of Germans voted agaisnt democratic parties and in favor of totalitarin parties. The choice in Jan of 33 was either another election, or one of the totalitarian parties.

And Fox news is one of five cable news shows. The others are all safe, as are the four broadcast networks. There is no government control over who says what. Of course, Michael Powell thinks they ought to regulate bloggers, but that idea is being laughed at everywhere.
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Boo Boo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
48. IMO, if there was a military coup in this
country, I don't think that would work out to good for the Neocons.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
49. Early stages, hell. Fascist fucks have been at this for DECADES!
AND THEY ARE NOT GOING TO STOP UNTIL WE STOP THEM.
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. You are
fucking right !
We can not keep trying to reason with these nuts !
We have to fight back and LOUD too !




http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. Stop them starting
with the power in your sig line-- the Quiet Revolution?

The affirmative power of that statement can help Du'ers avoid despair and activate their sphere (however big it is). It addresses the questions that pop up here about "optimist/pessimist?" It allows people to not feel trapped AND not buy into a future they DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN.

:kick:
:bounce:
:bounce:

Maybe it will help people see what they don't want to see, believe it IS as bad as it seems... and not support it. It ain't supporting them.
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hiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
50. Tin Foil hat is bullshit
What is wrong with Thinking and Exploring for all possibilities ?
The fact is they are fascist
The fact is many are trying to shove their thinking, their "view" down our throats or be gone with yah!
Being RELIGIOUS is not being Spiritual
and religious Fever leads to everything Bad !

http://www.seo-blog.org/5755_omfg_rageagainstthegop_machine
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
54. Worth considering but if they try, it will be their worst nightmare.
Let's come back to the real world. A coup crashes everything and raises the prospect for serious resistance. Remember, they are trashing the Constitution. Even the Republican legislature in Virginian balked and stopped a wingnut bill amending the constitution to make it say church and state are one...mind you, this is the Virginian Republican state leg. If these guys are so stupid that they think they can ruin the entire economy with their crap, they're crazy.

The coup-friendly faction in the USA represents the Schiavo, keep her alive supporters. Everybody else would be against it. Take all the cities and states who have rejected the Patriot Act, imagine guns galore in almost all of those places and you have the core resistance. Then you have the economic interests. We attract investment because we're "stable." A coup ruins that, run on our bonds, investors leave en masse.

They clearly would love to do this, they may try, bu they WILL NOT succeed!
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cherkepaa41 Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
55. a coup
If you do a little research, this started before they created the federal reserve. The same families which pushed through the fed are the ones running our government now. The " Bush " family has been involved with the finances of our country before it became a country. It surprised me when SR Bush became president and uttered those famous words "ONE WORLD ORDER " out-loud. I can NOT be the only one that remembers that.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. "NEW WORLD ORDER"
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 06:04 AM by Disturbed
"NEW WORLD ORDER"
PRESIDENT BUSH'S SPEECH TO CONGRESS
March 6, 1991 (extracts). This speech has often been cited as the administration’s principal policy statement on the postwar order in the Middle East.

... Tonight I come to this House to speak about the world – the world after war.

The recent challenge could not have been clearer. Saddam Hussein was the villain, Kuwait the victim. To the aid of this small country came nations from North America and Europe, from Asia and South America, from Africa and the Arab world, all united against aggression.

Our uncommon coalition must now work in common purpose to forge a future that should never again be held hostage to the darker side of human nature.

Tonight in Iraq, Saddam walks amidst ruin. His war machine is crushed. His ability to threaten mass destruction is itself destroyed. His people have been lied to, denied the truth. And when his defeated legions come home, all Iraqis will see and feel the havoc he has wrought. And this I promise you: for all that Saddam has done to his own people, to the Kuwaitis, and to the entire world, Saddam and those around him are accountable.

All of us grieve for the victims of war, for the people of Kuwait and the suffering that scars the soul of that proud nation. We grieve for all our fallen soldiers and their families, for all the innocents caught up in this conflict. And, yes, we grieve for the people of Iraq, a people who have never been our enemy. My hope is that one day we will once again welcome them as friends into the community of nations.

Our commitment to peace in the Middle East does not end with the liberation of Kuwait. So tonight let me outline four key challenges to be met.

First, we must work together to create shared security arrangements in the region. Our friends and allies in the Middle East recognise that they will bear the bulk of the responsibility for regional security. But we want them to know that just as we stood with them to repel aggression, so now America stands ready to work with them to secure the peace.

More here... http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/pal/pal10.htm
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conservdem Donating Member (880 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
57. I think your moving in to tinfoil-hat land.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
58. i think we're in "displace the government from control of the remainder"
and "infiltration of a small but critical segment of the state apparatus" took place in 2000 when neocons took over the top level.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
59. BUSH/NAZI EARLY HISTORY: 1900--1930
I thank winterboy for this timeline upon which I have been linking.


1900-1920

  • Texas discovers big oil
  • Teddy Roosevelt pushes an anti-trust, progressive agenda
  • Prescott Bush lies about military service
  • ‘Deranged loner’ tries to kill Teddy Roosevelt
  • WWI demonstrates world dependence on oil
  • Bushes, Walkers and Harrimans join forces investing in war
    After the war a committee headed by Senator Gerald Nye investigated the business dealings of the so-called 'Merchants of Death' such as the Rockefeller's Remington Arms and Standard Oil companies. The business practices of companies such as this was basically to arm both sides in any given conflict and then to escalate the altercation into a war and then sit back and count their profits as the hoi polloi lost count of their mass buried dead.

    Samuel Bush the great grandfather of George W. Bush worked with these "Merchants of Death" first as chief of the Ordinance, Small Arms and Ammunition where he oversaw the production and acquisition of small arms, ammunition, and forging guns. Samuel later went on to head of the Facilities Division of the War Industries Board in 1918. It was this post, which placed Samuel in an excellent position to rub shoulders and gain favors from the elite, which included Percy Rockefeller of Remington Arms Corporation, and other top executives from firms such as Winchester, Colt Arms, Du Pont etc. These connections later led to a post as the director of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland (which incidentally is neither federally owned nor a reserve) and the first presidency of the National Association of Manufacturers. These posts effectively placed the Bushes hands not just in the piggy bank, but also on the presses that print the money that goes into them.

  • Ku Klux Klan grows
  • American citizens embrace both socialist and anti-immigrant and fascist ideologies
  • Halliburton incorporates

1920-1930
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