Another diehard Dean supporter throws in the towel...

I have been a big Dean supporter since last spring, and I still believe that he could have been a good president, but this latest "scream" incident is the last straw. It's one embarrassing clip too many for the GOP's last-minute sleazy attack ads. I no longer believe he has a reasonable chance to beat Dumbya.

I've decided to kick back until the convention and let my fellow democrats pick a nominee, and I will support that candidate wholeheartedly.

I'm slightly inclined towards Kerry, but I'm just so exasperated by it all.

Dean knows, or should have known how sleazy our media is. He needed to be PERFECT, but he showed very poor judgement.

Dumbya preserves a veneer of (fake) credibility by NEVER veering from Rove's script. Too bad Dean couldn't rein himself in again.

In the long run, I sure hope Dean's participation will at least have the effect of encouraging other democrats to show sme spine.

I feel kind of the same way. I still take a stab at it once in awhile, but I think the takedown is nearly complete. I thought he looked good last night, did a good job with Diane Sawyer too, but too many people see him as damaged goods. I don't think it's a fair characterization, but fairness need not exist in order to set a perception.

We'll see.

could ever be called "die hard". IMHO

written letters to folks in primary/caucus states, and tried to sell my family and friends on the man.

I was not "easily swayed". My perception of Dean has hardly changed, But I believe that the overall public perception is now beyond repair.

is a bunch of crap.

Perception sways with the wind.

Just ask Dick Nixon. (oops, he's dead.) But you get my point, I hope.

It ain't over until it's over. I think we've all gone through the emotions you describe. I've put in the money you have and I can't imagine putting in more time working for him and still holding down a regular job. I think the YEAH is utterly Dean - one of the reasons I liked him in the first place was his passion, directness, honesty. Do I wish he hadn't done it at that particular time, after putting up with all the gloating? Sure. But I'm feeling defiant now. The right wing & DLC has been smearing Dean so long as "angry, violent, crazy,..." that the world was primed for this, and it took off. Best thing to do is laugh and carry on. It IS funny in retrospect.

And as we can see, they are picking up where they left off by going after Clark. What happens if Dean drops out and they skewer Clark - dump him, too? Then Edwards? Whoever is left standing is who THEY want to run against Bush.

I still am donating another $100.00 tonight. I've passed out campaign buttons, shared his message and can't wait to do it again.

It is the right thing to do, to take back my country. I do it freely and with honor.

when it's just a media spin job? Are you kidding?

Pull yourself together, man. We're gonna outlast this, easily. This is nothing.

The polls are going to be going back up in the next few days. I think you're going to be sorry you did this by Sunday.

Like Dean did for all of us.

Don't let the whores tell you who to vote for.

I have nothing more to say.

Go Dean!

Smears shouldn't sway real believers.

A loyal person would never give up on someone they like, based on the opinions of others.

is very scary. This isn't about any one person.

this is the very attitude that drove away the voters of Iowa and has been serving as a lodestone to mediocrity for the Dean campaign, and the candidate you profess to support.

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Dean is NOT my first choice, but he always resiliently rebounds from these attacks, be it the confederate flag issue or this.

ANY candidate we run is going to field this treatment. Pretty soon, it will be transparent to anyone that that is the case. Democrats get attacked for anything, Bush suffers for nothing.

I am beginning to think the public smells it.

If you believe in him, stick with him or do the work and promote the candidate you have faith in.

For far too long, too many of us have "kicked back" and let the leaders be chosen.

Stand for what you believe in.

will again play a big part in choosing our next president and it won't be a Democrat.

See what happens in New Hampshire.

Then I really thought about it.

1. I saw it live, and did not react negatively towards it until AFTER the talking heads started in about it.

2. I am a sports fan. I have seen hundreds of such screams to fans and players by players and coaches. I am a music fan, how many screams have I heard? How many fans are turned off by said screams?

3. Dean's reaction would have been manipulated no matter what he did. If he was quiet, the media would have been chomping about how Dean let down his supporters. No matter what he would have done, it would have been spun. That goes for any of our candidates.

That said, I do not think it was the smartest play, but not the showstopper some are making it out to be.

I also will support ANY DEM candidate. My vote IS completely transferrable. ABB, Baby.

I'm just afraid that way too few folks will vote along with me. :-(

Just to put things in perspective.

Do you think anyone who has gotten laid off is gonna care about a scream?

Do you think the parents and spouses of dead soldiers are gonna care about a scream?

Do you think many of the disenfranchised voters who are still pissed about the 2000 election are gonna care about a scream?

Do you think that a scream compares in any way shape or form to the lies, corruption and utter incompetence perpetrated by this Administration?

For me... a scream is worth a thousand words.

dean lost iowa before the scream....people seem to have forgotten that.
the people of iowa had a year to get to know him and they found him wanting.

Dean didn't lose Iowa because of the way he acted on Monday. He acted that way on Monday because he lost Iowa.

It clearly wasn't intended to convince Iowa voters, but intimidate New Hampshire (and other) voters.

Edwards and Kerry seem to have better timing, that's all. A week before the caucuses neither of them placed higher than third. Iowa will be an anomaly until it's confirmed.

If you vote based upon what you fear other's think about Dean, or the negative media coverage of what is essentially the first shot in a long, protracted war, you are a voter ripe for emotional exploitation by the corporatist statist media.

If people look at Dean's Iowa speech on its own merits, and with a disregard for the media scare tactics, they'll realize that Dean was doing only what presidential candidates have been doing forever. Candidates raise their voice. They get fired up. It's what they're _expected_ to do.

As proof of the irony of the attack, recall Nader in 2000, campaigning simultaneously more robotically and frenetically than either Gore or Dean. And amazingly the media gave him a free ride on it all. Was it because he was helping their cause? Do O'Reilly, Hannity, or Limbaugh get called for their foaming at the mouth by anyone? Wonder why?

If I ever switch my support of Dean, it will be for something far more substantial than a standard _and expected_ media psyop trashing of the guy. Their reaction only convinces me that he has the right enemies.

and about a president, not a rock star

I must have missed the reports about Dean eating babies and bathing in virgin's blood.

Hate to break it to you. That's impossible.

appear to be on the winning team speaks to the issue of why this country's democratic goverment is in jeopardy. The country has become so hypnotized by smoke and mirror image that it is fast losing whatever integrity is left. Whether Dean wins or loses the nomination is irrelevent at this point - I think it is very important to continue to support him standing up and speaking for changing the political business-as-usual climate. Without his continued enthusiasm and drive none of the other candidates have the ability to get large numbers of people fired up. I sort of think of him as the boilermaker stoking the engine to make the train go forward. Not as glamorous as the ticket collector perhaps, but that ticket collector would be going nowhere without him. Bush has a formidable team, we need to think of ourselves as team players with everyone doing their own little part to win the game.

someone just because they appear to be on the winning team..."


Been a supporter since he was at 1%.

that the media DOES have a lot of say and factor that into his campaigning. Ignoring that reality and then complaining about it when it impacts the election is not a good approach for a successful candidate.

This reminds me of something a friend once said. We were watching the 1988 Winter Olympic figure skating competition. Debbie Thomas was competing against Katarina Witt. Thomas was leading, but then did a terrible program, falling two or three times, losing the gold medal to Witt. My friend was really upset (and a more than a little drunk) and started fussing that Thomas was the victim of racism. "They didn't give her the medal 'cause she's black!" he kept insisting. The rest of us tried to explain to him that race had nothing to do with it, that Witt had clearly skated better than Thomas. "Nah! It's 'cause she's BLACK!" he kept saying."

Someone said, "It's NOT cause she black. She FELL, Albert!"

"So what if she fell," he replied. "What do you expect? It's slippery out there! That's ICE!"

Dean complaining about doing poorly because the media is picking on him is like Albert complaining that Debbie Thomas lost the medal cause the ice was slippery.

Dean complaining about doing poorly because the media is picking on him is like Albert complaining that Debbie Thomas lost the medal cause the ice was slippery.


Link? I've heard supporters say he was a victim of the media, not Dean. What's your point?

Dean SUPPORTERS complaining about doing poorly because the media is picking on him is like Albert complaining that Debbie Thomas lost th medal cause the ice was slippery.

As long as you're discriminating when talking about them.

Whoever wins *will* be Gored. Some less than others, yeah, but Dean is still a great candidate--one speech doesn't change that.

When will we learn that simple truth?


Kerry is already being demonized.....my son likes to listen to Hannity on the car radio to laugh at him and his idiocy. I can only stand it for a couple of minutes.


Today.....Hannity is telling his minions that Kerry's voting record with some vote tracking thingamabob is 93%, where as Ted Kennedy (substitute godless devil here for the rural public) is only 87%.

The attacks will be endless. Kerry's strategy of trying to split the middle, make mushy statements that can be interpreted any way, and not
being at least a little consistent are going to back fire on him.

A straight talking Dean could be respected, if not completely agreed with by rural america. Rural america will run from Kerry like he's the bubonic plague.

I agree,but the more I saw it the angrier I got at the media and the more I thought people would support Dean. That LIBERAL media won't pick our candidate.

At least "angry" is a double-edged sword. It gives a lot of credibility.

Howard Dean made every Democrat, in this great nation, to look at themselves in the mirror with honesty since the 2000 debacle.

For that, I'm forever grateful.

NBD...until the nomination.

no one can claim something like that.

Some just haven't. We'll keep working, though.

In this plastic society, where people think that someone making a weird sound in a moment of exhilaration has some bearing on that candidates abilities, you are probably right that Dean will be made to look ridiculous by the media. I have seen that clip no less than 30 times since Iowa, and it is very discouraging to see the juvenile analysis being put forth.

The thing about Dean that I respect is his courage to step out and stop the onslaught of the radical right wing, while the Democratic party cowered like the mice that they are. If Dean doesn't win the nomination, I too will support any candidate the Dems put up. But I will do so with no enthusiasm, because I know that the change will be trivial.

The Republicans will probably win, or if they don't they will take back the government in 2008. Irregardless if the Democrats put forward somebody that can win in 2004, I don't think any of the candidates other than Dean will withstand the skewering they will get from the media, and no candidate, including Dean, has a prayer of doing anything meaningful about the economy they are inheriting. This will be wrapped around their neck by a lying press 24x7 for 4 long years.

We need someone with the courage to stand and face down the radical right. Dean was the leader of the Democratic party that gave the rest of the incumbent lemmings the courage to stand on their feet and say "me too". Maybe one of them will learn from this experience and be brave in the future. I certainly hope so.

There's nothing wrong with Dean. At all. This is all bullshit spin, and the only right thing to do is to stand up to it and call it what it is.

But it is pragmatic to realize that no matter how much you spread the message, the voice of the right wing and their media is more persistent, louder, better financed, and ubiquitous.

Even democrats on this board are buying into the spin, so how do you think the average freeper is perceiving this?

As long as the media is pounding on Dean unrelentlessly, which they have been for the last 6 weeks, only those with the ability to tune those morons out will ignore the message. It will seep in on a large percentage of people. Advertising works.

If Dean loses in New Hampshire, they will turn their laser beams on Kerry, Clark, and Edwards. Dean should be able to regroup with the heat off, so who knows how this is going to go? If he wins in New Hampshire, expect to see the Iowa yodel replaced 200 times per week for the next 12 weeks. No matter how much you or I will hurl and curse, this pummeling will seep in. The only way around this is for the campaign to find some way to make the media look like the assholes that they are for stooping this low.

Clark supporters are feeling your pain. I certainly questioned Clark's electibility after last night's debate. I listened to the applause of the audience for all but him, and I was heartsick. The media can try to change our perspective, but they cannot change our candidates. While our hits are minuscule in comparison to the ones your candidate has suffered (as the front runner and target objective), none of our candidates ISSUES have changed.

Let your heart heal, dear poster. The sun also rises.

why we have a media run amuck and nation in deep trouble because people have given up so easy... Too bad your devotion was only as good as the going was good. Your disgust is aimed in the wrong direction, aim it where it will do the most good, the media or yourself. Why not stay in on the cutting edge of change rather than drift along with the tide.

Look at Kerry's early stumbles, and he's a seasoned pro compared to the rest. And with the exception of the former candidate Gephardt, none of them have experienced this kind of intense media scrutiny combined with the fact that they are running for an office that produces almost mythical expectations from voters. Our candidates are supposed to be perfect and all things to all voters, but in truth they're just gutsy, talented, flawed people in a pressure cooker. To be in one of those debates would be my worst nightmare.

I wish I could be more like you.

and yet, I sense you do yourself a great disservice by not crediting yourself as highly as you deserve.

hot?

Maybe you don't remember what Gore and Clinton before him overcame.

It's the Media, stupid! (Not you....not calling you that...it's just a play on Carvil's "It's the Economy, Stupid."

It's early, yet. Don't be a "fair weather friend" to your candidate.

were befuddled and didn't know what to do right after the debate because everyone refrained from sniping at each other - no bloodletting spin thing, and so they resorted to going back to the deanscream. And thats a good thing.

I am seriously considering changing to Dean/Clark because of Dean's ability to fight back from these media manufactured mountain/mole hill scandals.
This is nothing. There was nothing wrong with his speech and there will probably be a backlash in Dean's favor. I'd stick with him if I were you.

After seeing Dean on Letterman and Diane Sawyer, I've gained a whole new respect for him. His resiliency will bring him through this. :hi: :thumbsup:

I will be supportive of Dr. Dean until he is in the WH or he calls it quits. He is a fighter and he will go all the way or go down fighting. And I will be there with him.

Until Dean throws in the towel (if he doesn't get to the WH first) all of us Dean supporters must stick with the good Dr. and have faith that all our support (and for some their time and money) will pay off. I win or even a second place in NH has Dean back in the race big time.

The doctor is not done.

>He is a fighter and he will go all the way or go down fighting. And I will be there with him.<

I will talk about Dean till I'm hoarse to anyone who will listen. The first thing I did Tuesday morning was to give another donation on the website. I'll be damned if I allow Mr. Rove and the spinmeisters of the RNC to take the amazing achievements of Dean and those who support him away from this country.

I am NBD till the nomination.

There is no way in hell that I will give up now, and we also have given hundreds of dollars, talked him up to family, friends, neighbors and co-workers, and believe that he is the best chance to overcome the BFEE we've got.

I'm with the supporters.

I will not give up.

Julie
who joins hands with Deaniacs coast to coast, baby

nt

to grow some spine. He has made a tremendous impact.

This lady expresses the way I feel. She wrote this in response to an article where the writer was put off by the loud cheer.

Dear Mr. Sarasohn:

Your column in this morning's Oregonian was a disappointment to me. I've
enjoyed your sharing of your thoughts over past years and have looked
forward to reading your assessment of whatever issue was current in the
news. I've respected your keenness in seeing through the many smokescreens
created by members of the media. Unfortunately, in my view, in today's
column you failed.

I am a 74-year-old, life-long Democrat who, prior to learning about Howard
Dean last April, despaired that George Bush could be defeated in 2004 by
any of the then-declared Democratic candidates. While they made valid
points, not one of them showed any passion or strength. The campaign
portended to hold nothing new. The candidates would point out in measured
tones the errors of Republican ways, then Bush would be reelected. In the
crises that would arise, Democrats would protest but eventually,
regretfully "support the president." Many Democrats were furious at this
behavior and felt that we had no representation at all.

Then came Howard Dean. Democrats had a reason to hope again. Here was a
candidate taking positions Democrats longed to hear and was taking them
passionately. I and over 600,000 other Democrats have been working our
hearts out for Howard Dean, believing he is the only candidate who has a
chance to defeat George Bush and restore this country to the democracy we
have known.

So, I and thousands of other Dean supporters ranging in age from 14 to 86
were in Des Moines last weekend to do all that we could to support Howard
Dean in the Iowa caucus. Of course we were disappointed that we hadn't
prevailed but we were a long way from feeling defeated.

What the media has described as a "screaming speech" was neither delivered
in a scream, not was it a speech. The event was a political rally which
culminated five days of canvassing thousands of Iowa homes in very cold
temperatures. The hall was packed with enthusiastic Dean supporters.
Music, media, hundreds of excited conversations lent a party atmosphere.
Senator Tom Harken gave a fine, passionate introduction. Governor Dean
entered to a huge, lengthy ovation, then thanked the crowd for the hard
work that had been done and roused people to continue the effort in New
Hampshire and across the country. It was a wonderful, fulfilling event for
all of us who were there. There was nothing inappropriate to the occasion.
Dr. Dean never "screamed," he was never "out of control," he was never
"over the top," whatever that is. Granted, he shouted, as had Senator
Harken. They had to, to be heard over the crowd. Soon after, the crowd
dispersed to the Girl Scout camps, private homes and motels where people
were staying. We left, uplifted by Dr. Dean's passion and enthusiasm, to
continue the campaign.

The irresponsibility of the national media in completely misrepresenting
the nature of the Dean campaign rally is deeply disturbing to me. Of a
population near 3,000,000, only a tiny number have ready access daily to
present their viewpoints to the American people. When those people present
their personal biases as truth they do a great disservice to the nation and
shame their calling. I, and I speak for many others, have lost all
confidence in the national media. Despite that, I have retained respect
for you and a few other writers who are willing to resist the tide. I hope
you will be more discerning in the future.

Sincerely,

Margaret J. Tims
Portland, Oregon 97202

This is a fabulous letter. I'm going to print a few copies to hand out.

Schmendrick

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his supporters pissed off so many voters who preferred other candidates that, when they needed them to help make him viable, he was nobody's second choice.

Campaigns are not cliques in which anyone who doesn't fit in is automatically ostracized. You should remember that you might need these folks down the line and not be so dismissive of them just because they don't think that Dean is invinceable.

Spitting in the well is never a good idea - you might need to drink from it again sooner than you think.

The quirky rules of the Iowa caucuses favor Kerry and Edwards, to the disadvantage of Dean. It's not a level playing field like a secret ballot election, it's an oddball thing that, I'd argue, doesn't measure what it's claimed to measure.

I don't put much faith in the Iowa caucuses. The results are anomalous.

There was nothing "quirky" about the rules. The Dean campaign knew all along just what the rules were and, in fact, bragged up until Monday that they had a lock on making the rules work for them.

Corollary to my previous point: Dean supporters blaming Dean's loss on "quirky rules" is the same as Albert complaining that Debbie Thomas lost 'cause ice is slippery.

its not easy to be so strictly objective in evalutating these things, many cannot do it..
*hugz4u*

The water's warm. :)

getting on his plane, that same evening.

Big media *could* have replayed that over and over again. They can do this to any candidate. IMHO, we should expect it and *never* allow it to work.

convert another one!!!

Too bad you fell for the whoredom. Hopefully theres time for you to see the light. The powers that be want you to think that Dean is "damaged goods" and dump him. They succeeded. Congrats.

I don't think so. Did you see the debate last night? Did you see the interview? He can kick Bush's butt, and will, if given the chance.

our future. If someone else, do that. But we have keep the energy
going.

Dean could have sneezed wrong and been "finished" because the media (and others interested in finishing his candidacy) were gathering evidence that he was "angry," "unstable" and ?"out of control."

He's not finished.

the title of your thread. You are't a diehard. Diehards don't quit.

houseparty during the 1st week of Feb. Does that help with letting others pick the candidate for you? :-)

and I admire those who do so, but I will no longer campaign for him unless he's nominated. Until that point, I am going to just bash Bush, and campaign for ABB.

Sorry, I realize that nothing of substance has changed about Dean, but he will have to do phenomenal damage control to regain the credibility that he lost among the Leno/CNN/FoxNews/ClearChannel/USAToday consuming barely-informed crowd. I don't judge him on the scream, or the remixes of the scream, but I'm well aware that those millions will. Sorry to be such a "coward". Believe me, I'm sick about it - I accused those flocking from Clark to Dean a few months ago of "cold cowardice" and now I've fallen victim to it myself. Call me what you will, but I'm tired of being burned.

'Night all.

Run along now.

Those that fall behind are left behind.

he'd come back and pull you out of the water.

and Gringo, all I can say is I am sorry.

Attitudes like yours aren't doing him any good, especially since it's clear that defectors aren't all being replaced. Your candidate might be doing a little better if his supporters weren't so dismissive of everybody who's not fighting to join their clique. Looks like he needs everyone he can get.

I know it is disappointing, take a break from it for a while.

All the Dem candidates are one million times better than this nightmare. Of course we each have our favorites, but the most important thing is replacing Selected Resident with someone who more acurately represents the WILL OF WE THE PEOPLE.

It shows passion, something we just don't see in politics. Give me that any day over the dry, drab stuffed shirt speeches.

I'm a Clark supporter, but I've always liked Dean - and still do. I just might vote for him too - if California is looking like its going to be between Kerry and Dean and Clark is trailing way behind still my vote goes to Dean.

the view the supporters had of Dean.

have you seen how he's coming back in NH?

Don't give up.

http://www.idiomstudio.com/