People who espouse that the election was stolen...

are afraid to acknowledge that they lost fair and square. are afraid to put the burden of responsibility upon their shoulders. are making an excuse so they could stop campaigning ("what's the use of voting and campaigning when the voting machines are rigged"). are trying to disenfranchise Democrats by making them feel hopeless, less motivated, and depressed. are helping to make a lower voter turnout. are making the Democrats lose another election.

And that would eliminate the need for election reform then. Shall we stop fighting for the right of minorities not to have their votes suppressed? I think not.

:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:
:sarcasm:

On edit.....NGU

really don't love their babies, will never bond with them, are selfish and narcissistic and will make rally bad mothers."


Please! blanket statements are one of the best tactics the right uses -- they paint people into black and white categories. It's stupid and mindless. Not gonna play that.

busy figuring out ways to keep from falling off the edge? You can only acknowledge something was "fair and square" if it was.

I haven't seen anyone who thinks that the *entire* election was stolen, just strategic parts of it (like Ohio). What that would mean is that a) we need to concentrate on election reform and getting rid of BBV and b) we need to concentrate on a better message, thus making future elections that much harder to steal.

i have never said "what's the use of voting and campaigning when the voting machines are rigged"
i work to change it !
if someone feels less motivated i do believe that is on them.
http://velvetrevolution.us/


This petition seeks widespread support for the Conyers/Dodd omnibus election reform legislation. Please forward this link to your friends, family, and colleagues so that they may learn of my efforts and complete my on-line petition as well. Thank you.
http://www.johnconyers.com/index.asp?Type=SUPERFORMS&SEC={CAAC2381-7698-403F-97BA-9257E7DE8484}

http://www.johnconyers.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={BD0FBB2E-BAE6-4A15-9517-E9E135D8F0C7}
51% IS NOT A MANDATE
Especially When All the Votes Were Not Counted

The mainstream media seems to be waking up to the idea that all of the post-election talk about a mandate was just that: talk. Under the understated headline, "Doubts About Mandate for Bush, GOP," the Washington Post reports that the President's poll numbers are plummeting, his social security privatization plan and cuts are unpopular, and Congressional Republicans are abusing their power and are, likewise, very unpopular. They conclude that maybe there was never a mandate after all. In other words, they conclude "the main question facing Bush and his party is whether they misread the November elections."

snip---http://www.conyersblog.us/

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refuse to look at the evidence before them objectively.

Not all states have voting machines. Part of the effort here and around the other alternative media sites is to encourage the dissemination of suppressed information to voters in states trying to implement these crooked methods.

DU is providing a wonderful service to democracy by allowing this information to be posted, discussed, and archived as the process unfolds. Without DU, I can't find 85% of the information I need.

We are trying to attack the actual problem. We are not trying to cannibalize the party.

But I understand your point: it is disheartening to think that your vote didn't matter. I disagree with your assessment, though. It is better to understand what is really happening and to fight the actual causes than to fight an unwinnable war on your opponent's terms.

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For the continuing investigations and lawsuits.

Did you find the arguments about fraud in Ohio, Florida, NM, etc., non-compelling?

Can you help me understand how it seems to you that the election was fair and square? Or do you start with an assumption that it was, and find the evidence against that notion unpersuasive?

Not busting on you. Just trying to see if I can see what you see, or don't.

it's mostly the messengers and the message they send. It's mostly hysterical. It turns me off. especially when they don't present facts and just call me "idiot" like here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1763189&mesg_id=1763234
Or people who are overtly aggressive like here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1763189&mesg_id=1763231

Regardless of who you want to win, the count's got to be fair--otherwise it's a complete waste of time, besides being essentially fraudulent.

Fair elections is an issue that ought to energize every civic-minded American, period. The fact that the fix is apparently in for the other side ought to doubly motivate Democrats, who can rightfully point out that repugs should be ashamed of what's being done in the name of their party.

This is just one of a myriad of issues that ought to be lighting a fire under the ass of anyone left in this country with at least half a brain and half a heart.

FBI raids Noe's condo, seizes 'some property'
Investigators seek evidence of campaign-fund activity
By MIKE WILKINSON and JAMES DREW
BLADE STAFF WRITERS

The federal probe into whether local Republican fund-raiser Tom Noe was illegally funneling money to the Bush campaign had been ongoing for months. It reached a turning point Wednesday night.
FBI agents swept into Mr. Noe’s Maumee condo about 7:30 p.m., spending three hours scouring the home of one of the most prominent Republicans in northwest Ohio. They were looking for evidence of violations of federal campaign contribution laws.The federal probe is studying Mr. Noe’s campaign contributions to the President, and specifically contributions made by others who may have received money from Mr. Noe, possibly allowing him to exceed the $2,000 spending cap.Jon Richardson, Mr. Noe’s attorney, said the search was “very civilized” and that Mr. Noe’s wife, Bernadette, cooperated with agents who removed “some property” from the condo. Mr. Noe was not home at the time of the search.

The search warrant was signed by U.S. Magistrate Vernelis Armstrong. The affadavit that outlines why federal authorities are seeking the warrant has been sealed by the court.
On Wednesday, Gregory A. White, U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Ohio, confirmed his office is looking into Mr. Noe, who was chairman of the Bush-Cheney campaign in northwest Ohio.
snip--
Mr. Noe, 50, is a coin dealer and former chairman of the Lucas County Republican Party. He manages two rare-coin funds that have received $50 million from the Ohio Bureau of Workers Compensation. snip-----http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050429/NEWS24/50429002

If this piece is supposed to be evidence that it was fraudulent, well, let's just say there are better arguments to be made.

Could start with Conyers work. :shrug:

actually won fair and square six months ago is to believe that on election day itself some three million voters who had somehow flown under the radar suddenly got themselves out to vote. It's also to believe that exit polling was suddenly inaccurate, despite decades of reliability of those very same exit polls. It's also to believe that more than half of Americans are that stupid. Oh, wait. That last one isn't at all hard to believe.

All I know is that more and more every day it feels to me as it must have to ordinary Germans throughout the thirties.

"Little by little the look of the country changes because of the men it admires." (from the movie Hud)

I disagree with you on so many points, but I will hold back and just watch the flames fly. :popcorn:

On Edit: This is flame-bait. I hope it gets locked.

Do you trust the right? Do you like the idea that more than 80% of the votes are counted by corporations that back the republican party? Do you think we should not demand that votes are tallied by the American people, or do you want the republicans to keep counting the votes? Are you saying we should just keep playing on this playing field? Do you like this electronic voting? I am sure you are aware that if the Dems owned the voting machines, and claimed to have won two consecutive close presidential elections, the right would be screaming bloody murder, and rightfully so. This electronic voting must stop. It is unfair, and its results can't be trusted. After watching this deceitful republican thing for the last few years, you want to go on letting them count the votes? Unbelievable.

Argue that KERRY LOST fair and square, and that we would have been better off running with ________ (fill in the blank).

If it makes you feel better, I didn't want Kerry as the nominee.

Still, the election was stolen.

Hope YOUR candidate does better next time.

First of all you assume that the election was fraudulent, which is false. second you assumed that the reason I'm bringing this issue up is for an ulterior motive, which is false. so...

expecting to accomplish with this thread? I am sorry but I fail to see this being constructive.

He advocated that discussion is one of the most importants thing in the world because it lets people with opinions espouse their ideas, and perhaps in the end a truth can be reached.

The original post was flamebait.