My favorite Clark moment during the 04 primaries?

Of course it was ignored by the mainstream media, but for sheer gall and appeal to the red state males, no one else even came close. It was when General Clark accused * of "prancing" on an aircraft carrier dressed as a military man. The disdain in his voice was not over the top, but he got his point across. My very liberal hubby almost bust a gut on that one.

OK, I know what you Clark purists are thinking, and you're probably right. My God, you're thinking indignantly, that wasn't even close to General Clark's finest moment. He had many dignified, intellectually honest moments that stand head and shoulders above that silly comment.

You're right of course. But this comment plays to Clark's perceived weakness, his supposed inability to relate to red state males. For my money, however, it's his strength.

His use of the word "prancing" was so perfectly dismissive!

I hadn't heard there was a perceived weakness in his appeal to red state males. (Sometimes I think there's concern that he *does* appeal to red state males!)

Other favorites:

- Calling out Karl Rove by name.
- Saying "I've forgotten more about national security than George W. Bush ever knew."
- Saying "I'm not attacking George W. Bush for attacking the terrorists, I'm attacking him for NOT attacking the terrorists."
- Saying "No John Ashcroft or Tom Delay is going to take that flag away from us."

(All quotes paraphrased.)

Thanks for those great examples of how much appeal Clark COULD have for red state males, if the corporate media would cover him. But they are scared to death of Clark.

You're so right. :hi:

Was fabulous. But all of those you listed are great moments, if just a few of many.

CNN's account:
"If Karl Rove is watching today, Karl, I want you to hear me loud and clear: I am going to provide tax cuts to ease the burdens for 31 million American families -- and lift hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty -- by raising the taxes on 0.1 percent of families -- those who make more than $1,000,000 a year. You don't have to read my lips, I'm saying it," Clark said.
"And if that makes me an 'old-style' Democrat, then I accept that label with pride and I dare you to come after me for it."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/05/elec04.prez.clark.taxes/

Butcha know, while the smackdowns and "quotable quotes" are the most memorable, my favorite moments have to be Clark's brilliant townhalls. He so clearly connects to real people, because he listens to them, and does his best (always good) to answer their questions, not just peddle some pre-written campaign soundbyte.

Otoh, I will never forget the press conference after his return from the Hague. It was a real turning point for me, where I came to know this man is next in the line of Washington, Lincoln and FDR.

To me, they show his sensitivity to those less fortunate.

1) 60 Minutes II interview with Dan Rather

2) Town hall - style meeting (In Dover I think), where there was a grandmother who lost her grandson, and the cuts to Medicare, as well as other bu$h policies. affected the care he received/didn't receive. She held his picture as she told his story. She started to cry, and Wes went right over to her
and comforted her. I don't remember the other candidates' responses, but I can tell you that none responded with the warmth and compassion Wes did. Not that they didn't care, but to me, Wes stood out and showed a very sensitive and caring side. His compassion is one of his best assets.

It was very interesting. People were sitting on one side of the stage asking questions -- more than questions, they were telling often heartwrenching stories and asking what the candidates would do to alleviate such terrible predicaments. The candidates' chair faced front, but Clark was up off his feet when that woman started crying, and then listened and answered all of their questions facing them, even if it made the camera angle or the connection with the larger audience less straight-on. The other candidates briefly addressed the people on stage but then turned to the audience/cameras and gave short speeches. That made sense as a political appearance; Clark was just too connected with the people in front of him, speaking to him, to concern himself with that "retail" angle. I thought then, "It's true he's not a politician. And that's just fine with me!"

(Note: This is not to bash the other candidates!)

I also liked that townhall meeting where he said he would "beat the shit out of" anyone who tried tear down his military record the way they did with Max Cleland and John McCain (and as they later did with Kerry).

As far as his relating to red state males, he's been doing that his entire military career when he would have had large contingents of them under his command.

http://speakout.com/forum_view.asp?Forum=Wesley_Clark&MID=1173&mMID=1173
WES DIGS UP BUSH'S BATTLE WITH BOTTLE
Source: http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/11659.htm
November 24, 2003 -- WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential wannabe Gen. Wesley Clark said yesterday that Americans admire President Bush because of the way he overcame "alcoholism" and salvaged his marriage by sobering up.

The blunt comments from Clark on a seldom-raised subject came as he tried to explain his dismay with Bush's re-election strategy - which critics say exploits lingering 9/11 fears.

"I'm not running to bash George Bush. A lot of Americans really love him," said Clark.

"They love what he represents, a man who's overcome adversity in his life from alcoholism and pulled his marriage back together and moved forward," added Clark.

Although Bush has always refused to discuss his years of excessive drinking, he occasionally refers to it as a dark chapter in his life. He cites First Lady Laura Bush, along with religion and the birth of his twin daughters, as factors that led him to swear off alcohol.

But Bush's drinking is almost never mentioned by his opponents and Vice President Al Gore refused to make it an issue during the 2000 election.

Clark, speaking on CBS's "Face the Nation," accused Bush of "exploit 9/11" with new political ads paid for by the Republican National Committee that highlight the president's anti-terror efforts.
----------------

That was soooooo good! :smoke:

(From my earlier post)
I downloaded it and have it on my computer.

The MSM tried to pillory him for that (uttering a 'bad word') , but I loved it because it was so spontaneous, immediate, and heartfelt. I'm from Texas and down here when someone enrages you about politics, your first unguarded response is often a bellow of "Bullshit!"

the 2004 primaries have lasted nearly 2.5 years in the minds of some DUers.

Glad you're enjoying it. I'm sure you are, or you wouldn't be posting here, right?:sarcasm:

instead of living in the past.

There is life after '04. There's this little thing called an election coming up in '08.

in 2006, but I get your point. :-)

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I'm just sayin'.

A good Memory helps, too. :hi:

:applause:

yes let's not forget the past and/or past posters.

Vely intelesting......

Welcome!

back!:hi:

the three days of peace and quiet was sure nice while it lasted. <sigh>

:cry: RIP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=169140

I know we'll be seeing you again soon enough.:hi:

I am so proud!

Hehe....

}(

Actually, he got tombstoned for coming back under a different name after being tombstoned a few days ago. I think he was originally tombstoned for being a Rove operative who has repeatedly demonstrated just how scared of Wes Clark the GOP really is.

It seems that the GOP (among others) is already trying to stall his progress in the political arena.

We'll just have to make sure that doesn't happen.

As for 2006 and 2008, if we don't learn to avoid mistakes made in the past, we'll never win in the future.

Believe me when I say, Clark (and his supporters) are definitely looking forward to what we can accomplish in the next few years.

We're also a very 'pro-active' (in all senses of the word) in the 'real world' of campaigns and campaigning.

Many of us were new to politics in 2004.... we're not new anymore.

and hope that he stays in the public eye and politically active until that time. He is contributing much to the conversation.

The main point of my response was that current discussion of Clark is NOT a continuation of the '04 primaries.

..... I was up quite late last night working on a project. Then I found out that there was a re-run of Clark on Fox at 5am EDT.... "contributing to the conversation" . Indeed he is!

Clark has said over and over that in order to have an impact, the conversation has to include everyone -- even people who watch Fox. He's always "led from the front" when defending Democratic ideals.

:woohoo:

on Fox news.

When was asked is it a good thing for Bush to be meeting with Putin....Clark stated...."if it's done correctly"...which of course, we know, it won't.

Here's the video of Clark's appearance on yesterday's Cavuto World on Fox. It's a good solid interview for those who would like to watch a great Democrat showing fox viewers what it's like to have someone speak with authority that actually knows something!
http://yellowdogdem.com/20050507-WesYourWorld.WMV

Clark is very good at sneaking in these thinly-veiled shots at Bush.

His tone of voice says, "Yeah, we could pull it off, if the president wasn't a complete moron."

but I really got a kick out of him when he said he'd kick the shit out of someone. I forget the details...I'm sure someone will post just what happened and refresh our memories. Anyway, he impressed me with his feistiness (sp?) and it made me love him all the more.

If memory serves, Clark said that he would "kick the shit" out of anyone who questioned his military service record.

When someone close to Clark was asked about the comment, he said something like, "No, we need to clarify. He would kick the living shit out of them."

I share your sense of humor - I thought it was pretty funny.

The corporate media must have really buried it. The delicious details are in CrunchyFrog's post upthread, number six. Enjoy!

I was watching the event, a VFW breakfast iirc, live on C-SPAN. Loved it personally, but said to myself, oh, the shit is gonna hit the fan...

Sure enough, I've heard that FAUX played it (with the s-word bleeped) over and over that day.

Butcha know what? Didn't hurt him a bit. Contributions thru his website went way up. Almost as much as for his smackdown of Assman of FAUX. I even heard a few RWers (in real life) saying they liked that one.

I thought I saw every Clark live appearance on c-span, but I missed that one. Wow. I never even heard about until now. This is the response and attitude that Kerry needed to have when the slimeboat liars attacked him .

If you can call what C-SPAN does broadcasting... suppose not.

But anyway, it was well after the formal part of the event, so you might have seen it but not been paying attention, since General Clark was leaving the venue, just stopping to shake hands and speak to people along the way. The volume was low and there was lots of background noise.

Someone, an older veteran, asked him what he'd do when his military record is attacked, like Max Cleland. Clark said, "I'll beat the shit out of 'em," then sort of looked behind himself and said, "I hope that wasn't on TV" (or something very close to that... writing from memory). The vet who had asked him laughed and was thrilled with the response. As were we all. :)

The video used to be available on Ice's website, but then she moved everything and hasn't gotten all the videos from during the campaign back up yet. I'm sure she will--it's a daunting task and I hear tell she does have a life. LOL. Remind me later and I'll point you to the right one.

Sorry for the ignorant question. Thanks for your detailed description of the event. What a delightful response! I love listening to the informal chitchat after live events. Usually, though, I don't hear things as good as that.:)

http://www.u-wes-a.com/

Check it out. Just don't get lost over there permanently.:D

I'll proceed with caution.:)

Interestingly, the veteran mentioned several things as you mentioned, including (paraphrasing what I recall): "...What they did to Max Cleland, and John McCain, they'll bring up the Mladic hat incident, and try to trash your military record -- I want to know, will you fight them?"

"Of course I will, I'll beat the shit out of them."

(In the context of some other discussions this evening, the Mladic hat reference resonates...) :)

at first seemed to be making an apology for the General's saltiness.

The official statement was something to the effect that

"The General misspoke...

(as Clarkie hearts sink all over the country, afraid the General is actually gonna wimp out)

..."What he really meant to say was, he'd kick the living shit out of 'em."

:rofl: :bounce: :rofl:

That was the icing on *that* cake!

This old Navy guy was cheering his ass off at that one.

http://www.legalmemorandom.com/legalmemorandom/2003/week52/
Clark will kick YOUR ass
And trust me, I'm putting it a lot nicer than Wesley Clark did, according to this article:
Moments after praising his opponents in the Democratic presidential race as worthy running mates, Wesley Clark said, in no uncertain terms, how he would respond if they or anyone else criticized his patriotism or military record.
"I'll beat the s--- out of them," Clark told a questioner as he walked through the crowd after a town hall meeting Saturday. "I hope that's not on television," he added.
It was, live, on C-SPAN.
http://www.legalmemorandom.com/legalmemorandom/2003/week52/

But then he did release a clarification to that statement via his press spokesman in where it said....I want to make a correction, Wes Clark stated that he would beat the shit of them.....but really meant to say, he would beat the "LIVING" shit out of them.

LOVED IT!

don't remember how he phrased it. I think it was from a Town Hall or was it a debate.

Basically, that the Republicans care about weapon systems while the Democrats care about people, with respect to the military.

I think it was something like that.

In the middle of his speech to the Florida Democratic Convention, he stopped, strode to the back of the stage and returned with the American Flag. He held it high and proclaimed that this is our flag and we will not stand for our love of country being challenged. There was such an incredible roar from the crowd it was clear how much Democrats are tired of turning the other cheek to these rw bullies and liars.

The challange coin is a military tradition.
If challenged and you are not carrying your you have to buy beers.

While speaking to Vets during the primaries, some old geezers pulled out their coins and challanged Wes. Much to his chagrin Wes was not packing and had to buy beers.

There is a story about it here
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/12/politics/main583246.shtml

"General, here's to the best beer in America, and the best general in the world."

;)

There's too many to mention!! :hug:

:P Who knew the General was such a comedian?

But I found the article about it on countless websites. Here's what one of them:

..."Democratic presidential candidate Gen. Wesley Clark was quoted as saying: “I don’t know much about hip-hop. But I do know OutKast can make you shake it like a Polaroid picture.”

(per: http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=2692 )

The General is quite a guy ;)

http://www.rockthevote.org/rtv_cnn_video.php

Here's the story behind the quote, written up by a Bowdoin college student, but Clark is quoting Outkast:

Before proceeding, it should be noted that Clark recently ran a "Rock the Vote" commercial targeting college-aged students where he spends the first 20 seconds discussing core Democratic issues, then says in a still serious manner, "And I don't care what the other candidates say, I don't think OutKast is really breaking up. Andre 3000 and Big Boy just cut solo records, that's all." He then pounded fists with a bearded college student across the table from him. Visit this URL to watch the clip: www.rockthevote.com/ multimedia/candidates /clark.artv.affl.150k.mov.

But, does General Wesley Clark really listen to OutKast's rap tunes? I was committed to finding out the truth.

-snip-

As Clark went to greet the next veteran, I held my arm out in front of him and said, "It's great to see an OutKast fan running for President." I had no idea how he would respond. This Veterans Day event couldn't have been more removed from anything remotely linked to MTV or the rap world. But, the General immediately lightened up and grabbed my hand while laughing. Suddenly Clark and I were completely surrounded by reporters and he whispered into my ear, "You gotta shake it like a Polaroid picture," quoting lyrics from OutKast's recent hit song, "Hey Ya!" My question had been answered.

Not until hours later did it occur to me that a top Presidential Candidate, West Point Valedictorian, Oxford Rhodes Scholar, NATO Supreme Commander, Kosovo Operation Allied Force leader, and United States General had actually whispered rap lyrics into my ear.

http://orient.bowdoin.edu/orient/archives/2003-11-14/features01.htm

His "Rock the Vote" spot was the only one even remotely related to the target audience.

Wesley Clark
46.33%


Howard Dean
26.48%
Dennis Kucinich
12.03%
John Kerry
4.24%
John Edwards
2.98%
Carol Moseley Braun
2.72%
Al Sharpton
2.63%
Joseph Lieberman
2.59%

How cool was that? :7

They won an award for that video made for Rock the Vote.

Gen. Clark was at his best in Hennniker, NH in September, 2003. The most poignant moment was his reaction to a famale veteran, who told her story of sexual abuse while in the Army, and the Army did very little if anything about it.

Clark stepped closer, looked her right in the eye, and apologized personally as a senior officer at the time and on behalf of the whole Army. He asked her to contact him personally, tell her all the details, and he would follow up.

There wasn't a dry eye in the whole place.

Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO

Wish you'd post over here a little more often.:hi:

Of course, I'd probably have cied buckets. I've seen many instances of such sensitivity from Clark in unscripted moments. I don't care if it sounds corny, he is a good person.

It was his first townhall meeting, and was shown on CSPAN. It was also the first really good look that I got at Wes, and kind of sealed the deal for me. It may still be available from the CSPAN archives, or on Ice's site. http://www.u-wes-a.com/

:hi: We had many a conversation over at the old Draft Clark site.
But I had a different user name at the time..so you wouldn't
remember me.) Welcome aboard! :bounce:

with the woman who had been sexually abused.

And showed in a totally unscripted and unexpected exchange his ability to connect, empathize and take responsibility. Leadership.

~ :patriot: ~

It was fairly early after he announced and to be honest, I don't remember the Reporters exact question, but he somehow insinuated that Clark did not support the troops.

General Clark almost came out of his skin. Talk about a hissy fit. He ripped that guy every which way. I can only imagine how he would have handled the Swift Boat Liars For Bush. It would be a glorious thing to see.

that you're thinking of I believe. A video of it is probably still available somewhere.

:)

His victory speech was the most enjoyable moment of the primary season, for me.

:pals:

He clearly could have done what I had hoped Kerry could do also-- put Bush on the defensive about national security. The "prancing" on the flight deck summed up the ex-governor of Texas so well. It could have been one of the telling moments of the campaign. Unfortunately, Americans have become so enamored of talking trash that they seem to have trouble separating it from true pursuit of the national interest in foreign policy. All they know is what they see in the movies and the wrestling matches.

They announced Clark had taken Dixville Notch, and he and Gert were there to see it. I was in bed, watching on C-SPAN, and the pride that I felt was palpable. I remember going out and making myself something to toast the Clarks with, and I raised a glass... I love the Clarks.

TC

TC, you should have been HERE with us, but there will be a next time.

I'm really happy you're hanging out at DU so much more now. :pals:

I like seeing more of you, too!

TC

It was such a great moment! :)

his opinion about the draft dodger....

My 2nd favorite moment was CSPAN coverage of a speech he did early in New Hampshire. After he spoke, they followed him around as he worked the crowd. He concentrated on one man who asked what he'd do with the criticism of him by the former head of the Joint Chiefs. He leaned over and spoke in the ear of the Democrat (it was a noisy crowd): "Oh, don't you worry about that. We're going to kick the shit out of them."

Oh yeah, that's when I knew I'd made the right choice. Can you imagine him with the Swifties?

I think Clark would just roll with Red State males!

:hi:

Between the "prance" comment and the "cheerleader" comment. and the "kick the shit" comment, he is obviously ready to fight. We need a fighter. He's well known as being intelligent and experienced in military affairs, but how many average Americans know this side of Wes?

Boy, he sent Hannity into a tailspin with this beauty. I think it was Hannity's spot at the Demo convention.

Here's a pic of The General and me having a good laugh at Hannity's expense.

http://tinypic.com/view.html?pic=5006rl

the both of ya!

Did he really say that to Hannity? I'm learning a lot on this thread.

Clark, Reid, and Dean combined could take this party far beyond anything the Repugs could imagine, and leave them wallowing in all the mud they try to throw.

But for now, I may be dreaming!

Then Hannity started whinning that Wes was degrading cheerleaders.....
HHHaaaHHaaa!! What a lame comeback. Hannity could not spin the General.
Wes was laughing at him!!

Mr. Z's favorite will always be Wes' response to a question about why we went to Iraq: they looked around and saw some "low hanging fruit." That is now a household expression when the MSM starts the Iraqbabble machine.

All of Henniker...every flippin' minute...

I was at Pembrooke for the Clark/Moore event and must say the General was on!

Favorite interview was when Wes grabbed Tweety's notes and said: come on let's play hardball... wanna play hardball with me?

But my favorite moment was in Portsmouth NH on a day that started fine and ended up as pure magic. Anyway, the Clarks rolled into town and I discovered Wes in a small store doing the usual: Hi thanks for coming...great to see you...thanks...no, thank you...

Oh_he did say: Gert's over there (points to a small restaurant) go bother her.

Walking back out onto the sidewalk, a voice came from behind: Wes? As Clark turned to discover the source, he suddenly lite up. What seemed to be an energized General let a new flow break the surface making everything else that was going on seem somehow distant. The voice belonged to a West Point classmate, who then came in for the bear hug. The two immediately broke into Russian, and with Wes' arm over the man's shoulders, they walked away in their own world.

The moment I remember is without verbal quips--at least ones that I might understand; it is a visual moment of two people who are bonded by the class of '66 and joys and loss of that class. A moment when a private Wes stepped out to light up the day.

Umm... you might even say he's a little more intelligent than *, then.:sarcasm: I'm blown away the more I learn about this man.

Altho not as fluently as Russian, or so I'm told. But his Spanish is good enough that he was interviewed live on Spanish cable tv back during his campaign.

Fwiw, Clark taught himself Russian, back in the period after Sputnik. Public schools in Little Rock didn't offer it back in the 50s. He later studied it more formally at West Point. In the biography that Felix wrote, Clark's classmate John Wheeler tells the story that Russian was one of the very few classes Clark didn't finish first in, but only because Wheeler had used the exact same textbook in high school.

The story is that on the day he, then 12, watched the images of Sputnik beaming into American living rooms, the young Wes left the house and headed for the library. After all, if this was our competition then he needed to speak Russian, and so at 12, Clark set himself a goal which began with self-instruction in Russian. Hey, don't all kids do that?

All research shows that if people are to become fluent in a language, the early learning begins the better. (Why American schools pay little attention to this point is not understood.) Anyway, once a second language is learned, additional languages become easier. Maybe that's why he has continued to accumulate a few foreign tongues.

^^^^^^^^^

senseandsensibility_ I almost didn't post in this thread because I become dismayed when they are criticized for being "gushers." It is a fair although often biased assessment; nevertheless, the tendency they have to attract "flame wars" is chilling.

My last reading found the thread still in the safe zone. I hope that the tone holds true. Yes, Clark, who can seem mythic in some tales, is in reality an amazing man and a believer in the American Dream. After all, poor boy makes good means he lived it.

entire interview he did in Spanish with (I forget, was it???) Telemundo, during the Primaries? He was embarrassed becoase he was "rusty", and yet he did the entire interview anyway. I was blown away!

TC

when Wes answered the interviewer's question.

Watching as he switched to Russian was wild.

I grew up in a house with parents who spoke many languages and used them for private conversations in plain view of my sister and me. But there is something startling about seeing a public figure, one about whom you have made certain mental assumptions, switch verbal gears.

There are SO many stories that can and someday will be told, along the lines of Washington's cherry tree. Except in Clark's case, they're true.

The one that first blew me away was when, as a 50yo 3-star, Clark grabbed a rope, tied it to a tree, and rappelling down a steep embankment, amid small arms and mortar fire, and in an area known to be mined, to rescue his people in a burning APC. I've known a lot of generals in my life, many of whom were decorated for various acts of heroism in their younger days, but not a one I think would have done something like that. It's just not the way their minds operate at that point. One reason war is a young man's business.

The other story that always got to me, and one I've held up to my own kids, is the one where the fourth man of the swim team didn't show for the state tournament, so Clark swam two legs. And they won the championship.

Like teaching himself Russian, they all seem to boil down to, you never know what you can accomplish until you try, and Wes Clark has NEVER been afraid to try. There's more to it than that, of course, but its that combination of courage, determination and ability that sets him apart from the rest of us, imo.

If this thread invites a flame-war, so be it. We Clarkies are so often accused of "hero-worship" and what I keep saying is, we don't worship Clark, but he is a hero.

I don't know if our society is so bereft of heroes that we don't recognize one when we see him or her, or if just too many of us on the left have chosen to adopt a certain fashionable cynacism we masquarade as sophistication. Maybe it's just that the media doesn't laud the real heros in our society, giving us a stream of manufactured pop stars and atheletes instead.

Wes Clark is not a god to be worshipped. He's not even perfect. But heros don't need to be. They just need to be willing to do good when they can, and courageous enough to risk failure, or worse, to test the limits of what they can accomplish.

There is an annecdote in Frazier's book about the time during the Vietnam era he was giving a talk to school kids in Arkansas. Standing in uniform, he was asked about the protestors against Vietnam. He said to everyone's surprise that it was important that we have dissent in our country; that's what people in uniform fought for: a freedom to speak our minds and question our government.

At that age, at those times, and considering how he saw himself as part of the officers' corp, that was a remarkable attitude.

Maybe I should look this us to get the exact quote, but the story is close enough. How many people headed for a military career would think this way? (rhetorical question) I'm sure there are people who sat in that in that audience and have taken that message forward into the attitudes they carry today.

and that term makes me uncomfortable, too. However, I'm not really sure why that should be so. I'm not offended if others on the thread criticize the General. I just honestly can't find anything wrong with him. I just seem to keep finding more and more good qualities and accomplishments. That's my perspective, and I don't demand that others share it. Nevertheless, my true intention for starting this thread was to draw out more information about Clark's "gritty" side, since it seems to be the side that some DUers are unfamiliar with. And I think I succeeded!!:-)

when Clark stated that we need to call the Religious Right....the Religious Wrong...or call them the Extremist Right. I thought that this is too true. Calling them the Religious Right or the "cuter" Fundies does not really help the Democrat cause in labeling their opponents appropriately.
---------
In addition, Sy Hersch divulged a couple of interesting items about Clark wanting the truth to get out. So did Richard Clarke...who stated that Clark encouraged him to go forward with his book and all of the revelations that it containted.

Here's Hersch's story....
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan?

SEYMOUR HERSH:....I got there after action started, which was just devastating, I mean, brutal. There's always interesting warfare, but this was extraordinary. They just said, this was the worst they have ever seen. One air force colonel, who is a wonderful, bright young air force colonel said to me, "Well, the army demonstrated that they were able to send a bunch of boys up a mountain to their death." That's what they showed in this mission. Complete disaster. They tried to tell the press as many as 700 al Qaeda were killed. Newsweek reported ten bodies were found. Shades of Vietnam again. But I didn't write it.

What makes it interesting, while doing reporting on it, I called Wesley Clark, the former NATO commander, who is sort of an interesting guy in this stuff, because early in the war, early in my reporting on the war, I had written critically about a Delta Force operation. Delta is the secret unit of the army. The commander unit. They had been ambushed. The Delta guys were enraged. I'm talking about the first month of the war because they had been sent on this stupid operation and they had gotten hurt very badly. And they don't like it. Delta guys, they like to crawl in little holes for a week and get to their target. They were ordered to do it in a different way.

Everybody denied the story like crazy. And Wes Clark, to his credit, told a bunch of newspapers, "Look, I know this is right." I had said 13 people were hurt and he said 12 was the number that he had. I saw in him somebody with a great streak of integrity, difficult he may be. In any case, I called him about this story while I was doing it. He encouraged me to write it. I didn't write it.

About a year-and-a-half later, he's running for president. I mention this in the book, and I bump into him, and he jumped all over me. He said, "Why didn't you do that story?" I said, "Well, I just thought, it just would have been -- I just didn't do it." He said, "You should have done it. That was your job." Pretty scary. You know, he was right.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/14/1351212
Seymour Hersh's Alternative History of Bush's War
By Mary Jacoby
Salon.com
Saturday 18 September 2004
The crack investigative reporter tells Salon about a disastrous battle the U.S. brass hushed up, the frightening True Believers in the White House, and how Iran, not Israel, may have manipulated us into war.
<snip>
To talk about the new revelations ...

Let me tell you the one I like the most; aside from the obvious stuff about Abu Ghraib, there was a story I didn't write two years ago about Operation Anaconda. I didn't write it because, oh, a lot of complicated reasons. One, it was very hostile to our soldiers, and the military, and General Franks, and Hagenbeck, a very nasty story. And then secondly, there was bad blood between the Marine Corps, and General Franks, and CentComm and the Air Force, and it just didn't, uh ... it's one of those stories. The real reason in a funny way is that even though my sources were angry in talking about it, it's one of the stories they really would have regretted, because you're talking about internecine warfare among the services. It's about boys ... anyway.

They would have regretted it?

They would have regretted talking to me about that. In there is an account of the Marines insisting that General Franks sign an MOU, a memorandum of understanding, of how the Marines would be used. We're talking about in combat, this kind of war going on between the services. And, you know, I probably guess it was the right decision, because I had to do obviously an alternate history of the war. And obviously there were certain people talking to me. People on the inside know what's going on. And so, I probably agree it was OK to do it. But I felt bad when I saw Clark later. I had talked to Clark about the story at the time. Then two years later I ran into him when he was running for president, or right before, and he said, "Whatever happened to that story?" I said, "Well, I just decided not to write it." And he said, "Well, you should have. It's your job."

He's an amazingly straight guy. A difficult guy. "You should have." He basically told me, "Punk kid. You didn't know what you were doing." I also respect him because ...

Q-Let's talk about some of these revelations.

Oh, so that was the one I liked the most.

Q-But why didn't you write it at the time? You thought it would be too hostile?

No! There was, you know, it was a tough story about troops running from the battlefield, you know; it was just a tough story. I was writing a lot of other tough stories, and, uh ... it just didn't work. Let's put it that way.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/091904D.shtml
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This man is tough, baby. Well, I won't start "gushing" again, but DAMN...I hope he runs in 2008.

senseandsensibility_ I enjoy threads like this one... I do really. I only mentioned the "G" word because that is often what other nebishes say. ("Why don't they just stay out of the thread?" she mumbled to no one in particular.)

This thread has proven very successful! Yeah!

BTW, the last time I saw Wes Clark, I thanked him for always telling the truth. That's really all I ask--no spin--no posturing--no crap; just the truth. I don't expect to agree with someone's every word; I do resent being pandered to.

listen to Amy Goodman. Look how she cut Hersh off when he was saying good things about Clark.

Remind me again how the far left is so very different from the far right?

that Amy Goodman did certainly and deliberately cut Hersch off by changing the subject as he was in mid-sentence.....when he was about to say why he liked Wes Clark.

It Was a strange thing...and odd how the transcript really enables one to get that distinct impression.

Eerie!

She is an absolutely fearless journalist. But in this regard, I agree with you. She has an irrational dislike of Clark, in my opinion. She and her colleague, Jeremy Skahill, have shown it on many other occasions. I find it disturbing, but I still watch Amy. She speaks truth to power, and I actually find it heartening when she holds Dems to high standards too.

I will never forget that pomposity. It exposed Clark's
mental personna once and for all.

and that's not what he said at all.

TC

The poster 1) either knows that or loves pig ignorance 2) carries Roves water 3) gets off trashing threads. Maybe all of the above. I don't know.

It has been a pleasent thread and that was a "good thing."

people who say things like "I will never forget that," when they aren't "remembering" what happened?

Reminds me of the recent caller to C-Span who said he'd "never forget" the General "just sitting there, laughing" when Michael Moore called the Chimp a deserter. ("I wasn't sitting there because I wasn't onstage when he said it, and I didn't laugh.")

I'll never forget how often people like to say they'll never forget things that never happened.

That's why I didn't bother to rebut or argue. When was the last time you read a one-sentence post from me? LMAO!

TC

set Clark up by calling Clark a lieutenant to Kerry's general in politics......because Kerry had won Iowa....where Clark had not even contested.

Certainly that was something taken advantage by the Kerry camp...but it was bullshit to begin with, and everyone knew it...Including John Kerry. That's why Clark was Kerry's surrogate throughout the election....cause it was "just" politics.
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http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/wesley_clark_/2004/01/did_clark_insult_the_junior_officers.php
During an appearance on CNN's "Larry King Live" as the Iowa results rolled in, former Senator Bob Dole said to General Clark that he thought the success of Mr. Kerry, also a decorated Vietnam War veteran, might have turned the general into a colonel.

"Well I don't agree," General Clark said. "Senator, with all due respect, he's a lieutenant and I'm a general. You've got to get your facts right."

Asked later about the exchange, General Clark acknowledged Senator Kerry's military background. But, he added: "Nobody in the race has got the kind of background I've got. I've negotiated peace agreements. I've led a major alliance in war. It's one thing to be a hero as a junior officer. He's done that and I respect him for that. He's been a good senator. But I've had the military leadership at the top as well as at the bottom."

Well, right. Kerry was a hero, which establishes his personal physical courage and his patriotism, but doesn't make him an expert on the military or on national security affairs. Clark was a hero, which establishes his personal physical courage and his patriotism, and then rose to be a four-star general, which does make him an expert on the military and on national security affairs.

Kerry has an edge in political experience, which Clark wouldn't deny; Clark has the advantage in military experience, which no one in his right mind could deny.

Later, in New Hampshire, Clark said the following:

“I stayed with the military all the way through,” Clark told reporters after rallying volunteers at his headquarters. “I stayed with the United States Army through Vietnam. I was company commander there. I fought and I was hit by four rounds.”

“I’m only saying I stayed with the United States armed forces. I’m proud I did. Lots of us did,” said Clark, answering a question about his and Kerry’s military service.

A spokesman for the Kerry campaign tried to pretend that Clark somehow denigrated Kerry's heroism. “We didn’t expect General Clark would question John Kerry’s courage and commitment to country given his record under fire."

Well, I'm glad they didn't expect it, because it didn't happen. Clark said, without being prompted, that Kerry was a hero, and acknowledged his service in the Senate. (To be fair, it's entirely possible that the reporter, playing "Let's you and him fight," somewhat misquoted Clark in asking the Kerry people to comment.)

Note that the Union-Leader, like the Times, has a headline that implies that Clark went after Kerry, when the text of the article makes it clear that the "contrast" was set up entirely in the reporter's mind, and by the reporter's own question.

Tacitus is echoing the Kerry line:

Am I reading this correctly? Is Wesley Clark really obliquely belitting John Kerry's war service? Is he really denigrating mere junior officers as compared to exalted generals? Is he really implying that there's some moral failing in not pursuing a lifetime mililtary career?

Answers: No, No, No, and No.

C'mon, Tacitus. Ask me a hard one!

Tacitus -- who never bothers to acknowledge Clark's own heroism, in Vietnam an then in the Balkans, has a comment directed at Clark, which he could better have kept for himself:

Shame!

Instapundit echoes Tacitus, without bothering to check the original sources to verify the accuracy -- or, as it turns out, the inaccuracy -- of Tacitus's account.

And naturally Rush Limbaugh weighs in.
http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/wesley_clark_/2004/01/did_clark_insult_the_junior_officers.php
and
http://hf-jai.forclark.com/story/2004/1/25/21143/4335

If you're still holding a grudge about Clark on that one....then I guess that you've been sold a piece of shit as a comb...and you must now think that your hair is styled better than ever.

When Bob Dole attacked Kerry, Clark went on to use his status as a general to defend Kerry including an op ed in the NYT and repeatedly in interviews on TV. Does anyone acknowledge that? Bawawawawaaaaa! Ain't never gonna happen. Exactly what other Dem. could have done that with credibility? My, my, what short memories the haters have.

Edit: Any moment with Bob Dole--a primo gop "hit man"--does not ever qualify as a favorite moment which is the subject of this thread.

"bad" to say about Wes, don't they?:)

cause in the end, just like a broken clock is on time at least twice a day.....the stuff they throw at Wes is either distorted or just outright untrue bunk.

That's why I like defending Clark....he's consistently found to be clean, and they hate that.

and whooping it up when McGovern said, "There are a lot of good Democrats in this race, but Wes Clark is the best Democrat."

Hate CNN but here's a nice pic of the two heroes flipping jacks--
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/18/elec04.prez.clark.mcgovern/

Everyone has mentioned such fine moments, though. :applause:

I admit, I literally cried when I found out that Senator McGovern was endorsing Wes. I hadn't expected it and I just adore George. I was so happy that he was endorsing "my guy" that even though I felt really silly about it, I cried. That's one of my private favorite moments of the campaign. :)

I love all of the ones mentioned above....The calling out of Karl Rove and the clevelry bringing up of W's alcoholic past were priceless, as was the prancing comment. My young nephew got a whole hip hop board onto Clark when he told them about the "polaroid picture" comment. :)

Although it wasn't really a campaign moment, I also really did like the speech he gave at the CAP conference shortly after he announced. He was scheduled to speak before he became a candidate and so the speech was not supposed to be a campaign speech. I believe that was the first time he brought up the notion that W should take responsibility for 9/11 happening on his watch...Bit of a hubbub after he dared to voice that thought...It doesn't seem so revolutionary now though, does it?

what more could you want?

Thanks for sharing that private memory. I loved your "Wes speech at Chris Heinz"
thread. Very cool. :applause:

It was fun writing it. :)

I met McGovern when I was just a kid. He was running for President and making an appearance at some farm a town or two over from where I lived. My mom took three of my siblings and I (all of us young kids) on a city bus and then a bit of a walk to get to the farm to see him. There was hardly anybody there. We got to see him up close and he picked up and kissed my little sister. I didn't know much but, for whatever reason, I just loved him.

I also love a moment on a video about RFK that I have where Senator McGovern gets teary eyed remembering the last time he saw Bobby...That just gets to me so much. (One of my other political "heroes" is RFK.)

That endorsement meant more to me than any of the others...

I supported Dennis Kucinich but had the opportunity to hear General Clark, meet him, speak a sentence to him and shake his hand. This was after he had dropped out but still, it was my favorite moment.

Due to the rancor on the board right now I thought it would make me feel better to stop in and say hello. Clark is one heck of a guy, a great speaker and I warmed up to him alot over the course of the debates here on DU and on TV. I was suspicious of him at first but he has been out there doing what needs to be done and the suspicion is melting away every day. He is out there working for us and I have nothing but respect for him.

Some of you I know and love to communicate with here, some I don't know. I do miss the constant interaction we all had during the primaries, most of it good so HELLO! General Clark is lucky to have such a devoted group. And....my goodness, those eyes. Yup, just a girly moment here.

And if I might return the compliment, Dennis Kucinich is impressive in many ways also. I have always admired him.

I have just been thinking about all the recent stuff here on this wonderful site and it dawned on me, something I knew all along, I like and respect most everyone here. I always had some really nice conversations with Clark supporters. Remember all the individual candidate threads during the primaries? You guys were always all over the board telling everyone nice things. I guess I am just having a Kum-by-a moment(or however you spell it), so typical Kucinich supporter lol.

Clark is impressive and I hope he continues to stay at the forefront.

That is such a nice post. Thanks!

Although I supported Clark from the late draft days, I do very much like Dennis too. I received his lovely video postcards throughout the campaign and I do respect him a lot. I think he's a good man who's not afraid to speak what he feels...I like that about Gen Clark too. :)

have in common, neither one is afraid to call it like it is. I was suprised to see how closely the often align on issues too. Who would have ever guessed that?

I loved those postcards.

I spent a lot of time with supporters of Dennis outside polling places. The energy was excellent. Kucinich is fighting the good fight as are those who support him. We all won't exactly agree on every issue but we can come together to make essential positive changes.

I have been sorry to hear from reading on another thread that Dennis has seemingly come under a fair amount of attack on some DU threads lately. I will need to start reading more "candidate support" threads because that is the only way I find out when that crap is going on. I would be glad to say a few words in support of Dennis even if I may disagree tactically with him on this or that issue. We are fighting for the same goals and he is a wonderful fighter to have on our team, saying things that must be said.

to say that. It has been his week I guess, isn't Clark the week after Dennis? :shrug: I never can remember.

I loved your posts in Skinner's thread. It made a lot of sense and actually would go the farthest I think to solve the problem. I never have understood why we had to beat each other over the head with insults when we disagree.

I have also decided that I should visit other threads. I miss talking back and forth with others with other ideas. Maybe if we all stick together when we see stuff going on like this it will begin to get better. It is worth a try. Keep on keeping on, your guy is really doing great things.

They were great, weren't they? It was always a nice little surprise to find one in my emailbox. :)

And, you're right, it is surprising how often they align closely on issues.

I really hope this doesn't come off like I'm bashing any other supporters because this is such a nice moment, but one of the women who worked on the Clark campaign in NYC with me who used to go to local political meetings to represent Clark said that sometimes she got the cold shoulder and even near outright hostility from reps of other candidates (I suppose they resented the late entry into the race by the General or something) but the Kucinich supporters were always really nice and friendly. She really appreciated that at some of those meetings. It made me reppect Dennis and his supporters even more.

We all have our share of kooks! Shhhhhh.........(except Clark and Kucinich of course)Shhhhhh J/King you all just kidding around.

Being a real supporter of DK caused me to really try hard not to be a jerk. Now of course I did not always succeed but he does inspire us to try to be the best we can be.

I almost am beginning to feel a little silly here with all of this but I do think it was an important thing for me to do because I really was getting soured on all of this so what to do? Go out and find out that most everyone here is wonderful and we ARE together in all of this.

I am looking forward to paying more attention to what each of our great Dems are saying. I have been slacking lately on that. I would imagine that Gen. Clark's platforms will really become available to more people. It was a shame he got in so late and had to deal with all the questions but that is the way it is. Now we all are aware of him and awaiting more from him.

I remember when you posted about that experience. It's one of the DU moments that really stands out in my memory. I seem to recall that you conveyed greetings to General Clark from his supporters on DU. I really appreciated that.

I admire Kucinich alot too, and as I've mentioned before, voted for him in my state Caucus. I got involved in a bunch of meetups and other activities and really liked the Kucinich supporters that I got to know. I was also really impressed with Kucinich when I saw him speak.

It's bothered me alot to see Dennis coming under attack lately. This whole board almost seems to be on a war footing. My signature line pretty much says it all about what I think of Democrats attacking other Democrats on a Democratic board.

to read your posts. All the candidates are getting it from somewhere aren't they? Crazy.

I LOVED that experience listening to and meeting Clark. It was seriously inspiring. Yes, I mentioned DU and after an initial blank look (I could see his mind turning lol) he brightened up and I could see he really meant it when he said he knew about us. It was the perfect lightbulb moment!