From Talking Points memo I think there is a piece of wisdom...

"-snip-

So all of that is my thinking on why it might be good on substance and on politics -- depending of course on the precise particulars of the deal -- to give the Republican moderates a few judges now in exchange for putting to rest this plan to break the senate rules with false claims of the filibuster's unconstituionality. But any agreement that concedes on the present nominees in exchange for kicking the can down the road till the next fight on which the stakes will be even higher is just stupid.


If the filibuster is dead, far better as a matter of principle, honesty and politics to find out now, in advance of the next fight, than pretend otherwise.


The truth is that I think this whole debate is really hypothetical or moot. I think they've decided to break the rules with their false claim of unconstitutionality. And if that's true then Democrats should confront the situation at that level, without fear of doing so, without fear of 'losing' in the narrow sense of the term. It's just about to the rump caucus of Republican moderates whether they want to join their colleagues in their rule-breaking.

-- Josh Marshall



(May 19, 2005 -- 05:05 PM EDT // link // print)"

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Sometimes it becomes clear that something is so valuable that you must let it go. If the Republicans are hell bent on subverting democracy than that is where America is today. America needs to see the lengths the Repubs are willing to go for power. Who here does not see that if we compromise, the Repubs will say that we are now neutered and they will say that we have no strength. They will say that we will blink in the face of terror. They will say that they never intended to do it. They will say we are Chamberlains. AND THEY WILL BE RIGHT. We cannot take part in appeasement. Some things are worth losing. It is time to filibuster until they stop us. It's time to fight. It is that important.

**edit of title because people thought it meant the opposite of what my post it. The filibuster is a valuable component of democracy. Such as we all would give our lives for the lives of our children not because it holds no value, but because it does.

The filibuster is the only check the Democrats currently have on the ruthless power grabbing reupukes.
Let it go and you can forget future elections and anything goes.

We either have to be willing to fight or they already have total power. If we agree not to use, they haven't already given it up?

about the comparison with the Nazis?

In other words, let them have what they want then the people will really see?

I DO NOT want a deal. If it turns out that Frist pushes the nuclear option and successfully does away with the filibuster, then it's time for Democrats to get nasty. Shut down the government - do whatever they need to do. I am sick and tired of concessions and back room deals. Democrats must take a stand and fight.

We should have pressed the issue over Alberto "The Torture Apologist" Gonzalez. There will come a day when the showdown comes. We should choose when that day is.

I for one will gladly trade the fillibuster for some pissed and motivated Democratic leaders! Let's get ready to RUMBLE!

we must draw a line.

We must say -- if that is what what you wish to do to the Republic and if that is what you wish to do to the Constitution, and if that is what you wish to do to the Great Experiment and the Social Contract -- so be it-->

We should fight. No deal. If we win - we win and Frist is toast. If we loose, it will just bring on Armageddon all the quicker and if survive it, there won't be another republican elected for 40 years.

This is a purely evil and arrogant bunch of people running the Republican regime and the old fashioned saying rings true, "If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile." A "victory" for the right would give them another claim to the imaginary "mandate" they announced with the recent elections and they will continue to build upon this false, yet growing, foundation of deceit. And the ignorant will come and a monstrosity will be built upon this foundation and we will have one hell of a time undoing the damage.

The more we sit on our hands and the more we compromise, the more we feed the monster. Not only do they see it as weakness, they have people who spend their waking moments figuring out how to use this to their full advantage and they've been doing that pretty well. This is a very scary time for our country.

More accurate to say 'Force the Repubs hand, make them take it'

Not 'let it go', even though Marshall made that foolish analogy that something is 'so valuable that you must let it go'.

However, the context clearly suggests stand and fight, and DON'T compromise.

At the time when we should be united as a party, there are those who would, through surreptitiousness, attempt to rend us apart. There is absolutely NO WISDOM in giving up this fight -- ever. We will only be "stopped" if we allow them to stop us. Well, I say this those who would be seduced by the chicanery of these words:

NEVER SURRENDER. NEVER GIVE UP. STAND AND FIGHT!

try reading further before you post.

Furthermore, there is no stopping. There is no trying. We cannot stand to lose this fight. Period.

deal making. I have changed the title to better reflect the content of my arguement.

Now we're on the same page. I completely agree with you. I hope you can understand the fire of my convictions though. You're absolutely right -- this deal making crap is getting on my nerves. We need to stand resolutely and not give one damn inch.

The fight is over the Supreme Court. To this issue: the fight is to stop a reversal of almost one hundred years of judicial progress that has allowed the average individual to seek redress in the courts, to assure the protections of fundamental limits to government power as written in the Constitution. The reversal of this progress will reset the powers of governmental and corporate abuse that populist causes have sought to break through legislative and judicial challenges during the past century.

This is seizure of all branches of government by a virulent faction of the Republican party. "Let it go" is not an option.

which was one of the big ABB arguments.

canvassing when it was 100 degrees, pulling all nighters working on campaign stuff...it wasn't any passion for John Kerry (sad to say)

This fillibuster ploy is an orchestrated ploy from the WH with the sole goal to further power for the repugs.

But giving the poster the benefit of the doubt, if the Dems let the judicial fillibuster go, maybe the poster will recommend a point at which the Democrats should stand firm against the repugs. If not now, then when? Will it be when CuckooBananas also does away with cabinet nominee fillibusters? Or, emboldened by their success they attempt to rule that all fillibusters are unconstitutional?

But even if this were the end of the game for the repugs, what are the Dems to do when the judiciary is packed with ideologues because they cannot make any meaningful opposition to the wackos the repugs nominate. And how will they oppose a complete wacko being appointed as Chief Justice of SCOTUS? When the repug goals have been achieved and CuckooBananas is effectively able to rule by decree because the other two governmental branches are mere rubberstamps for everything that pops into his warped brain, will it then be time for the Dems to put up a unified opposition?

No! The time is now, before it's too late.

I mean, yeah, a lot of his appointees are crap, but heck, they only serve for four years. But these judges serve for LIFE and deserve serious consideration and there must be respect for the minority.

For example, some Conswervatives say the judicial branch thwarts the will of the people - the people elect legislatures to do certain things or pass amendments (such as banning gay marriage) and the judges overturn the will of the people by striking down such laws as unconstitutional. Apparently, it has never occurred to them, that, say when the Massachusetts Supreme Court allowed gay marriage, it was looking at certain equal protection provisions in the Constitution.

No, let Bolton get his up or down vote, but use every non-violent method to block the female Borks Dubya wants to put on our courts.

use it. I think we are beyond where you are. If we do not agree to not use it, they will take it away. So really it is already lost or they are bluffing. We have to call that bluff. Then we can move on to what Kennedy talked about. shut down the senate and use every single rule that is usually not used as a courtesy.

Until and unless the rethugs present an idea superior to those in the Constitution.

Let the people see how far they're willing to go. If not now, when?