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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:39 AM
Original message
Bush errs on the side of death and illness
Here's the deal: Bush supports IVF, a scientific procedure which destroys thousands of embryos so a few children can be created by couples who could not have children. (Just a hypothetical question, but how is that NOT messing with God's will?) Meanwhile Bush opposes using any of the discarded embryos to try to cure diseases which afflict thousands upon thousands of already-living people. Furthermore, Bush spends billions of taxpayer dollars on war policies which have killed hundreds if not thousands of young children - call them "collateral damage" if you like - in his misguided and intangible mission to bring "freedom" to the Middle East.

Bottom line: Bush errs on the side of life, except in circumstances where the life belongs to someone who is already living. To put it another way, Bush always errs on the side of death and illness, except in situations where medical science can create life for well-off Americans who can't have children.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/25/politics/25stem.html?hp&ex=1117080000&en=994c6b49e43dc0fb&ei=5094&partner=homepage



"President Bush made his
opposition to the stem cell
bill known yesterday at the
White House, showing off
month-old Trey Jones, who
was born as a result of one
couple’s donation of frozen
embryos to another."

Frozen embryos? So, what happened to the rest?

Q: What happens to any extra pre-embryos?

A: A maximum of four pre-embryos will be transferred to the uterus for possible implantation. Patients will have several other options regarding the disposition of the remaining pre-embryos. One option is to freeze pre-embryos for your later use. Other options are to donate or simply dispose of them. Excess pre-embryos, if any, belong to you, and you will determine what is to be done.

http://www.ivf.com/ivffaq.html


What happens to the surplus embryos?

There are only two options for the surplus embryos -- those that are not implanted in the woman's uterus:

- Most often, the spare embryos are deep-frozen in liquid nitrogen. This is called "cryopreservation." Of the 232 labs who returned surveys to a government survey, 215 (94.7%) have the equipment to preserve embryos.

Their fate is mixed:

- Some die during the freezing process;

- Some die while they are subsequently thawed.

- They may eventually die because of operator error or equipment malfunction.

- If the original attempt at IVF fails to produce a pregnancy, then some embryos may be thawed out and a second implantation attempted. Probably about three out of four of these thawed embryos will die without developing into a fetus. Probably fewer than one in four will develop into a fetus and a newborn.

- Some embryos will probably lose their ability to induce a pregnancy over time. One source says that about 25% of frozen and thawed embryos do not survive between a first and second impregnation procedure. Another source says that some frozen embryos might survive for decades.

- On the order of 9,000 of the 400,000 embryos preserved in cryogenic freezers in American fertility clinics are available for use by other couples. As of 2003-AUG, 31 embryos have been successfully implanted in the uterus of unrelated women, and were later born. Fourteen more are expected to be born by the end of 2003. These are often called "snowflake babies" by pro-life groups.

- Those embryos that are not preserved in liquid nitrogen will inevitably die. They have no chance of living or developing into a newborn. Many clinics simply discard or destroy them. Some embryos are simply flushed down a sink drain while alive. Some are transferred to a medical waste bin where they are later incinerated, while alive. Some simply expose the embryos to the air and let them die naturally; this normally takes up to four days. Still other embryos are donated for research and experimentation, for personnel training, or for diagnostic purposes. At this stage in their development, they fortunately have no brain, no central nervous system, no pain sensors, no consciousness, no awareness of their environment. Thus, no matter by which method they are disposed, they will feel no discomfort.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_inco.htm

So as of 2003, there were 400,000 preserved embryos. By the end of 2003, 31 embryos had been successfully implanted and subsequently born, and 14 more were expected to be born. That's 45 children from 400,000 embryos.

Meanwhile:

"18.2 million people — 6.3% of the population — have diabetes." (Just in America): http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/pubs/estimates.htm

"At least one million people in the United States are estimated to have Parkinson's.": http://www.michaeljfox.org/parkinsons/index.php

"It is estimated that 4.5 million Americans over the age of 65 are affected" with Alzheimer's disease.: http://scc.healthcentral.com/bcp/main.asp?ap=416&brand=30&page=ency&id=100

"Cholera is spreading in Baghdad’s impoverished al-Amil quarter where overcrowding and contaminated water are leading to fears of an epidemic. City officials blame insurgent attacks on infrastructure for the outbreak in southwest Baghdad. Children have so far been the worse affected, with one doctor at a Baghdad hospital saying he is now seeing young cholera patients on a daily basis.": http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1498418
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coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. While Terri Schiavo should stay alive stem cell research should be banned.
It doesn't make sense.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Nothing these zealots do makes any sense at all
because that's what zealots are. They have a bizarre belief system that states potential life is sacred and actual life is profane. They are incapable of reason, empathy, compassion, logic, education, or anything else that would crack through the hardened carapace of belief.

Our job isn't to convert them, to convince them, or to do anything about their (unused) hearts or (unused) minds. Our job is to get them the hell out of power and keep them out forever.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Your last line is right on. We can't change them; we have to defeat them
Nothing else can save the nation.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. With over six billion people on the planet
with a majority living in poverty, can anyone tell me why we need to focus on making more people?
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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Overpopulation issues aside
I'm sure that IVF is a wonderful gift for couples who are able to conceive after such treatment. I don't really see this as an issue of stem cell research versus IVF treatment.

What I don't get is why Bush thinks it's acceptable for medical science to use/discard thousands of embryos to create a relatively small number of children for a relatively small number of couples, but EVIL for medical science to use those embryos to attempt to cure crippling diseases which afflict millions of people.

(I also don't get why Captain Culture Of Life thinks it's acceptable for living children to die as "collateral damage" in a war which is supposedly bringing freedom to those same children.)

Actually, I do get it. It's because he's the king of all hypocrites, and he's pandering to his radical base.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Thanks for this post
I've yelled this more or less at the TV every time the issue comes up. Our so called press never asks this obvious question. It was clear even when he tried that political compromise in the summer of 2001 (great priority then)that it was just total and complete bullshit. Either you are for IVF and Stem cell research or you should be against all creation and destruction of embryos outside of any natural process. If you are infertile, well adopt one of the many needy children from this big sad world and get over your own ego-driven attachment to your DNA. I personally am for stem cell research and against any insurance funded IVF because I do not consider infertility a medical issue to be covered with or often instead of actual health issues. Each attempt is at least 15K when that money could be used for people who are trying to live not replicate. Of course this is a whole other issue but I figured as long as I'm ranting...
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Why you blaspheming savage, didn't you know Gawd
told us to "be fruitful and multiply?"

I was there, I heard him.

Honest...
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. I was listening to the news this morning on this issue
and I wondered what would Bush do if one of his daughters or Pickles came down with diabetes, or had a spinal cord injury. Wonder if he would change his tune then. I can't imagine denying someone who is LIVING, BREATHING, and SUFFERING help. Stem cell research could help so many and for him to put politics above reason, just makes me sick.

I just don't get it, but then this is one of the many "wonders" of on an ongoing list of dum things this man does.
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woodsprite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. I didn't know they had a real name
like Snowflake babies. I always called my son a "kidscicle". He was a 1 out of 8 frozen embryo survivor at the time of implant. Five survived the thaw and only his one continued to divide after 12 hours and was the only one implanted.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
9. Great info - thank you
I'm glad to see hypocrisy is still alive and well in this administration.
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AVID Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. Great Post! bush is the King of PHOTO_OP hypocrisy


BRIGHT EYES LYRICS

"When The President Talks To God"

When the president talks to God
Are the conversations brief or long?
Does he ask to rape our women’s' rights
And send poor farm kids off to die?
Does God suggest an oil hike
When the president talks to God?

When the president talks to God
Are the consonants all hard or soft?
Is he resolute all down the line?
Is every issue black or white?
Does what God say ever change his mind
When the president talks to God?

When the president talks to God
Does he fake that drawl or merely nod?
Agree which convicts should be killed?
Where prisons should be built and filled?
Which voter fraud must be concealed
When the president talks to God?

When the president talks to God
I wonder which one plays the better cop
We should find some jobs. the ghetto's broke
No, they're lazy, George, I say we don't
Just give 'em more liquor stores and dirty coke
That's what God recommends

When the president talks to God
Do they drink near beer and go play golf
While they pick which countries to invade
Which Muslim souls still can be saved?
I guess god just calls a spade a spade
When the president talks to God

When the president talks to God
Does he ever think that maybe he's not?
That that voice is just inside his head
When he kneels next to the presidential bed
Does he ever smell his own bullshit
When the president talks to God?

I doubt it

I doubt it

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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
11. "It's wrong to create life to destroy life"
Isn't that the slogan? I always wonder why somebody doesn't ask why there's not an all-out campaign against in-vitro then, since that's exactly what it does, according to their own definition of cellular "life." :crazy:
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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-25-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
12. I'm surprised Dobson's not buying these...
implanting them in some handmaiden's womb and turning them all into little Christian soldiers or selling them off to the highest bidder.

Why the MSM doesn't talk about how these
"Christians" make money off selling babies is
beyond me.
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Shallah Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. It is a Christian adoption agency w/ a fed. grant handling snowflakes
Embryo transfers for `adoption' give rise to controversy
november 2002
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/4508733.htm

Quote:
Embryo "adoption" as some call it, is still a rare option for infertile couples, but a $1 million federal grant is intended to change that.

Snowflakes, a program of the Nightlight Christian Adoptions agency in Fullerton, Calif., which opposes the use of embryos for stem cell research, has received $500,000 of the federal money to develop a program to promote what it calls adoption of excess embryos being kept in cold storage.

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realFedUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. oy....nt
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Shallah Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Here is the Snowflakes FAQ explaining requirements, rate of success etc
http://www.nightlight.org/snowflakes_faqs.asp

How many embryo adoptions has Nightlight completed?

Nightlight has matched 230 genetic families (with 1584 embryos) with 145 adopting families. To date 18 babies have been born, and 10 adopting families are currently expecting at least 15 babies.

SNIP

Can single women adopt through Snowflakes?

Since Snowflakes began in 1997 we have had a few genetic families open to placing with a single mom. Although we do not require that you be married, we feel it only fair to tell you that the genetic families in our program prefer to place their embryos with a married couple. As a single woman, you will almost certainly have to wait longer for embryos than a married couple, and you may not be matched within the time period you hope to become pregnant.

SNIP

What is the success rate of pregnancies among Snowflakes families who have had embryo transfers?

To date, 120 families have completed 188 transfers resulting 85 pregnancies (as of May 2005). The overall live birth success rate is 37%. 81 children have been born (56 families: 16 sets of twins, 3 sets of triplets and 4 siblings), and 10 more moms are due with 15 babies (5 sets of twins).

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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. Seems the typical republican plan is to do exactly the opposite
of what they say. "Culture of life" my ass. "I'm a uniter, not a divider" my ass.
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
15. What about the murder of kids (former frozen sperm cells)!
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Shallah Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Just wait. There will be the birth of the SPL (Sperm Liberation Front)....
with people liberating frozen donations from fertility clinics. Or more seriously I wonder if these people got all the power if America will end up like Romania with people being required to produce children or be fined. hmmm I wonder if their opposition to porn isn't just that people enjoy it but it causes non-reproductive sex....
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
17. I'm sick to death (almost literally) of my life mattering less than
Edited on Thu May-26-05 08:12 AM by blondeatlast
some microscopic goo in a Pyrex dish.

This is a battle for everything America once stood for: her people, the unfortunate, the contributors to society. It's FAR beyond a partisan issue, and it gives me the creeps when DUers and others argue it as political posturing only.

This is my everyday existence:



It's quite simple: my life (as an ID diabetic) doesn't matter. I can take care of myself, I don't need the protection of ridiculous adults. Because I don't NEED these people, my suffering doesn't matter to THEM. But it matters to me, and my son, and my husband.

I'm calling bullshit on them. I'm angry, and I want that research NOW.

http://www.insulinfree.org/



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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
18. great post Earl!
:kick:
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. Earl, Bush doesn't "err" on the side of death
He actively promotes it. Look at his record on capital punishment. Nearly 200 executions in his six years as governor of Texas; Bush still holds the Guinness record for "most executions by a U.S. governor." During the mandatory gubernatorial review period for each death sentence, Bush's deliberations lasted, on average, fifteen minutes for each convict.

IIRC it was Antonin Scalia, a Bush confederate, who said that proof of innocence wasn't enough to overturn "a death sentence properly reached." In other words, it doesn't matter if we later find out you didn't do it (which negates the "properly reached" part of Scalia's comment; you're not supposed to be executed for not doing it), so long as the paperwork's clean, your head's coming off.

This is in addition to Bush impoverishing America through outsourcing and his imperilling the lives of every Afghani and every Iraqi by destroying their infrastructure.
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's utterly about control. Live or die, they want it to be their choice.
They're "Pro Choice" alright, so long as it's theirs and only theirs.
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Vektor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-26-05 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. You know he's looking at that baby and thinking,
"In only 18 more years, his ass can be drafted!"
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