Floored by a Born Again Christian

He is a husband of a friend and he was tiling my bathroom for me this morning.
(I am hopelessly inept at almost all manual labor.)

I knew he was a Born Again and several times was tempted to bring up religon and politics but found some will power to not engage.

But my wife went food shopping this morning with my daughter and son and it was just me and the Christian Handyman.

He started by asking me what church I go to. I told him a local Catholic church but I am very dissapointed in the religon I grew up with and "have not been to mass in a while."

He started telling me about how Jesus saved him from marjuana, cocaine, swearing, temper tantrums, ect. There was a beautiful glow in his face as he spoke and he was very eloquent in what he had to say.

But through his 20 minute sermon he gave to me kneeling on my bathroom floor, there were certain questions I wanted to ask him.

Like, do you believe being gay is a sin and
do good gay people who love God go to hell because it is a sin?

"Yes and yes."

Do you believe being gay is a choice?

"Yes. My brother was gay and now he is not."

Holding back my wish to refute that bullshit I asked him, "Do you believe there are bad Christians and Good Christians?"

"Yes"

Than I said to him., "OK, only a yes or no answer to this question.
DO YOU BELIEVE george bush is a good Christian."

Without hesitation he said.....

"No. Because the bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I voted for Kerry but I have problems with him too."

I almost fell down flatter than my new tiles. They are not all blind folks.

I have an email buddy who runs <http://www.believersagainstbush.org/>

She claims the title evangelical, but only in the sense that people who are evangelical believe in spreading the teachings of Jesus Christ. It doesn't always mean a knock at the door. It could be through a web site, through the way you choose to live your life (forgivness, helping the poor, etc- although, of course, this way of living is not soly for Christians only.)

There is a movement among liberal Christians. Unfortunately, the corporate media isn't interested. Our version of Jesus is more the Beautitudes... "Blessed are the Peacemakers..." THis doesn't play nearly as well as falwell or some of his pysudo-religious terrorist ilk screaming "Thou Shalt Not." They provide more drama--- and the corporate media looOOOOoooves their drama.

Although he is a rare bird, I'm glad to know that these "born again" types are capable of seeing through the bullshit and actually practicing what they're preaching.

And on a side note, plase don't think I'm defending the anti-gay-gay people can "feform" bullshit. But look at the upside. He didn't let his anti-gay hang-up cloud his reason. Perhaps the gay beiefs will eventually be reformed, too.

to enlightenment. The whole world has been dogmatized and most everyone is doing the best they can with what they believe and have been taught. At least the man is a thinker. I find your post very hopeful. Maybe evangelical America can become brave enough to get past the fear of hell and gain some real freedom.

who has never voted Republican. My husband and I challenge people all the time to examine why they focus so much on the gay issue....why is that more important or damning than greed, gluttony (power gluttony), or lying? We see that others are starting to look outside their convenient party line answers. The tide is turning, I truly believe that.

Not all Christians are Born-Again Evangelicals, and not all Born-Again Evangelicals are conservatives.

The religious right represents a small percentage of those who self-identify as Christians and only a sliver (less than 20%) of the electorate as a whole. They have no business running the country.

:hi:

solely on the pro life position. I got a pretty blank stare when I asked her how she felt about the lives lost in Iraq. Clearly a single issue voter.

Pro-war and Pro-Death Penalty is not Pro-life

The only one that has commented on it so far is my step father who said something stupid regarding his belief in the death penalty.

I am actually Pro-Choice but I really want the fundamentalists that live in this part Bible Belt state to read it.

I really like it and would like to get one.

or two to the Iraqi occupation, you'll be surprised how the definition of "pro-life" becomes more complete and takes on NEW priorities!

I'm pro-life (both not supporting abortion nor support war), however, I feel it abominable that Good Christian folk FORCE people to believe. The hard sell has never worked in the past. We must win people over through goodwill and charity.

Funny how the right wingers only have one rigid definition of being "pro-life"?!? Shame on them ... for on the balance this Executive Branch has been anything but protective of embryo's that in the old days of the Catholic Church, was not considered a human. Strange how the Leadership of many faiths and denominations conveniently forget their past.

Your friend is NOT a pretender, but sadly mislead by pseudo-religious zealots. I too wished there were no, or at least fewer young women choosing abortion, but I'm not going to vote for a right winger or block/bomb a clinic to reach those ends. It's only through understanding and compassion do we *fully change* people's hearts and minds.

for quite a while over her decision as I was really interested in how she felt and why the single issue was that important to her. I don't think I convinced her that he vote was an error and honestly, that wasn't my intent. I just wanted to explore her reasoning and she is still my friend.

During all this I learned one thing about myself and why I believe that Kerry lost. That being that I voted against Bush rather the for Kerry. It could have been a warm bucket of sand and I would have voted for it over Bush. I feel that opinion is shared by more than just Me and and the Dem's will not win elections that way. That may have even had something to do with here vote.

I personally am both pro-life and pro-choice. I want to do my best to help save someone from having an abortion (so I talk to them or think wisely about who I'm voting for) and pro-choice because I know in the end God gave us freewill for a purpose. We have the choice and deal with the consequence.

(Regarding your friend): Ah, but those are little brown fetuses dying in the Iraq war, as opposed to little white fetuses dying here. </sarcasm>

how many votes the Democrats would pick up if not for the single-issue voters who go Republican strictly because of abortion.

and she said she voted for Bush because of abortion. Ugh. It disgusts me so bad because of republican policey's are anything but pro-life. :mad:

very liberal minded people who would vote with us if not for the abortion thing.

I was raised Catholic, and while I reject nearly all of the dogma and many of the teachings, what did result in me was a reverence for human life. Because of that, I don't like the idea of abortion. But what I have come to believe is that a reduction in the number of abortions will only occur if poverty decreases, if ALL pregnant women are given access to resources that aid in the preparation for, and raising of, a child, not to mention a damn good sex education program that promotes not only abstinence, but also safe, protected sex.

is single issue voters. You have to think of the over all picture. If you want to stop abortion don't vote for someone who you know bankrupted two companies and never paid it back. According to Planned Parenthood the number two reason why women have abortion is the money issue. During Clinton's years the rich got richer and the poor got richer so that concluded in less abortion's. Since Bush has been "elected" in 2000 abortion rates have gone up. Why? VERY poor economy. If people would educate themselves on things like this maybe it would cause them to vote different. If you want to save babies save jobs! If you want to save jobs vote democratic!

I don't see how any LGBT person can't take his bigotry personally. :(

but since this person believes in not killing, he is probably a compassionate person. And if he is compassionate, it's possible that someone would be able to eventually get through to him that some people are born gay just like some people are born with blue eyes. And then I would say that Jesus never said anything against gays. But Jesus did stick up for people who were shunned by the society of that time so it's a good bet Jesus would not join with those who shun any group of people today.

I'd be interested in finding that out.

has a brother who is gay and was always different according to the woman. Yet this woman has stymied the public school sex ed program because it treated gays humanely.

My take on the woman after reading about her is that she lost one husband through divorce, then joined the Mormon Church, remarried, and is clinging for dear life to the Mormon teachings because she thinks that they will keep her marriage safe. In my opinion, this woman is too concerned about her own emotional/financial securtiy to have any compassion for even her own brother.

I think she's hopeless. But the guy who doesn't believe in killing didn't seem hopeless to me.

These people have been berated for years with propaganda.

open if someone straightened him out about the gay thing. How can you argue with the new genetic research coming out - like the fruit fly one.

Also, I find it helpful to present some information about transgendered people and people who are born with both or parts of both genitalia. I can't remember where I saw it but there is not just XX and XY possibilities for a humans sexual genetic makeup. Some people have a jumble of chromosomes.

How does THAT PERSON get into Heaven you could ask?

BTW - I sent Dr. Dobson information about this and he has yet to answer me They give you a ticket number so to speak and I sent another email and referenced this ticket number and STILL have gotten no reply. Maybe I should post it as an open letter on this forum and send him the thread.

he said to you.

Seriously, ashamed. Lost track how many have told me this.

On note to another previous poster: The tide "is" turning, big-time! It's not just Democrats/Liberals/Green etc., rather Republicans are super-angry at * & Co & all Republican Congressional members.

Shew, ran into many yesterday of all ages and they are screaming for "impeachment." I said nothing. Rather, they kept telling me I need to learn to speak-up, and stop being afraid. It was one of those "wow" moments.

He didn't seem shy about sharing his other unpopular beliefs. I'm not sure what would motivate him to lie about how he voted.

I feel better :eyes:

Have you visited http://www.stillspeaking.com/ and http://www.ucc.org/


Check it out.

You'll feel better and "NO," most churches from U.M., Lutheran, Baptist, Amish, Mennonite, Quakers, you name it have joined together to denounce him on their web sites. Run a search (if they haven't taken links from Google as I'm noticing suddenly).

I'm a straight mid-aged woman and love all my fellow human beings, regardless. It's un-godly & un-Christ like to live any other way.

My wife used to run a day care and years ago (for about 15 years) she told me “this child is going to be gay” and “that child is going to be gay”. Each time she was right. Now I am for gay rights and gay marriage but anti abortion but I digress.

The point I am making is in the 3 or 4 examples my wife had to deal with she was right each time. Gay is something you are usually born into (but sometimes you are sexually assaulted into it).

Those who live in a tiny room of faith don't have to think at all or very little. Someone else does it and creates every thought and belief. They think that if they can fill their tiny rooms with others like themselves, that they have strength and power and can condemn and remove all others.
There is hardly a line of difference between christianity and islam and neither is very kind to the human race!
I believe that room is the "long dark night" much more than death or it is a "death"!

i recall a story from an old bosun on a freighter ship which serviced far north canada....they had brought a bulldozer to this isolated place for a planned airstrip, and walter the bosun said they needed to train an inuit to operate it. They called for someone, and this little guy, very eager and pushy, claimed the honour. So they tried to teach him to operate the dozer, but the inuit guy more interested in yelling to everybody, showing off, look at me! Finally, they called it a day, and left the dozer with lil inuit guarding it...next morning, lil inuit guy gone, everybody gone. The dozer had had a fire...someone tried start it and left key on...wires burnt up! Finally the inuit came out and admitted little guy wanted to show off more, but there was a fire....Anyway, they set it up so dozer aleways parked on a hill, and could be started by rolling down...and it ran like that for 30 years! Your friend is sorta like that...the problem in US isn't just bush, it's about people not having sense to defer to those who know what's up, and follow the lead.....why is mass media a whore? shouldn't the born again think that might be very very bad thing?

I suspect the division in the country is contrived so as to mask the extreme corruption of our voting process.
Divide and Conquer.
While we sit and debate among ourselves the MFs have walked off with not only the ball; they have stolen the bases as well.

...I don't think we all are as divided as MSM & etc. make out; and we need to start realizing that!

:applause:

according to what you say, he cannot even spout his own religion properly:

"Like, do you believe being gay is a sin and
do good gay people who love God go to hell because it is a sin?

"Yes and yes."

well according to what I learned in relgious brainwashing baptist style,
ALL sinners can go to heaven if they repent, even hitler and bush.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

even if he cured cancer and solved the pi riddle he'd still better go to hell regardless....
there be riots in heaven if geeb shows up there! hitler, dr phill? ok, but NO junior!

BUT:

MURDER (preemptive war) is NOT a Christian value.

LYING (dishonesty, bearing FALSE WITNESS) is NOT a Christian value.

THEFT (money, elections, the wealth of nations) is NOT a Christian value.

HATE (gays, 'rag heads', liberals) is NOT a Christian value.

ETC.


Why are not MORE Christians OPPOSING (outspokenly) these criminals who have taken control of our nation? That's what I want to know.

This is a question which takes us back into church history. Christian fundamentalism stated about 100 years ago in reaction to the "social Gospel" of mainline Protestantism - a stress on good works and each Christian's responsibility to the human family. The reactionaries emphasize a strongly Augustinian theology of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and faith alone. While this approach has deep roots in Puritanism, the Fundamentalists take it, like everything else, to extremes of literalism. The evangelical revival after WWII (Billy Graham & Co) placed great emphasis on emotional experience - feeling pious, "He walks with me and He talks with me..." rather than logical theology. The result was a brew particularly comforting to those alarmed and threatened by the rapidly accelerating social change of the 20th century. The emphasis on personal feelings and lack of central organization made this kind of Christianity ripe for hijack by big business GOP operatives. More recently, Catholic and Jewish leaders have joined in for somewhat calculated tactical reasons. The born again anodyne has been enormously important in stifling reaction to the deterioration of the American standard of living. Praise Jesus!

....the enemy of my enemy...is my ally....welcome aboard.
:patriot:

I'm not very familiar with the history of the contemporary Christian movements. Looks like you are. Great response.

Welcome to DU!

She voted for ... Kerry. Bush makes her nervous -- all the swaggar and short-tempered behavior when he's challenged. She just doesn't trust him. While she disagreed with a lot of Kerry's views, she felt that he was a serious man who would work to do the job and she also felt that he wouldn't be dishonest.

Interesting world.

with a coworker just last Friday.

I've always thought she was pretty cool - we have similar backgrounds and sort of hold the same values. it always bothered me tho that she didn't consider herself a liberal - like she was afraid of the label or soemthing, but i've yet to hear any of her beliefs and find them to not be a belief held by the left.

In any case, as the conversation progressed she told me she's recently been Born Again. I was floored - but she said it's been difficult, and she's trying to make peace with things...like the factt hat she's unequivocally Pro-Choice, and that while she believes Gays deserve the same rights straights do, she doesn't beleive in Gay Marriage. She went on to explain that she doesn't believe Marriage should be defined by the Government at all, and that Unions should be legally defined but marriage is for the religious institution of your choice. I wholeheartedly agree with ehr and told her that was a far left opinion, not a conservative one.


Then we kept talking, (she voted for Kerry), and she hit me with something that thoroughly insulted me, which i didn't realize til later:

She said - Do you believe that Christ dies ont he cross for your sins, and that you are born sinful? i said - Hell no. She said well then you're not a real Christian.

in hindsight that pisses me off. Knowing what i know of her history, she has flitted from religion to religiona nd history to history her entire life, so i'm hoping this is just a phase, but i'd really like to bring her back to the "dark side" i'm just not sure how to go about doing it.

to most on the radical christian right, I am bound for hell, and some most likely would say me getting there could not be soon enough, but then again, I digress. LOL

Well, I will not go into no long rant, but to my good Christian friends if something happens to you like the person that started this post, and tell you they are "born again", then, tell them you are christian too,(never deny that fact), but ask them, "How can you say you are born again now, and scripture tells me, the only way to see the kingdom of G-d is you be changed from flesh/blood to spirit (literally born again)?

or glorifying him because he actually sees through the bush bull.
His (thier) views on gays and other topics is deplorable to me.

But he was tiling my EFFIN bathroom!!!!
I'm not going to upset him.My wife begged me not to talk politics or religon with him because she knows how upset I get. I was just amazed at his answer to bush and I wanted to share it.

This 6 foot, BIG muscular guy was literally teary eyed when he talked about how "Jesus saved" him from a hard running lifestyle when he has a wife and kids.

For those of you who think I should have been tougher....

at the end of our conversation he asked me if I would attend his church with him someday. I said simply "I'm sorry I can't do that."

And he said, "That's o.k. Peace Brother."

in such a situation. It is good to hear he doesn't confuse loving Jesus with supporting bush.

When I had the energy and patience it wasn't hard to play the Jesus game with believers. I don't mean that as disrespectfully as it sounds. Jesus, man or myth, has much to be said for him. If someone really followed "what would Jesus do?" they'd be a fine person to know.

The game I mean is talking in their language in such a way that I sound more innocent then accusatory. I know much of what the bible says Jesus said and did, so I'd start out with parts we would agree on and how what mattered to him is what should matter to us.

But the good thing is it is really hard to hate a group in Jesus's name. The amusing part is the one group he sounded like he hated (if calling them vipers and sons of Satan and damning them indicates dislike) was the Pharisees because they put burdens on the poor to benefit themselves, and did all the things the bush administration does, acting so good while being rotten inside.

But homosexuality is an easy one to talk about. How I heard people say what sinners they were but reading every word that Jesus said in the bible he never says one thing about them and there were sure homosexuals back then.That if Jesus found them someone we should judge I know he would have told us that but he never said a word. People might bring up the OT quotes and I'd nod and say but those same chapters damn those who eat shellfish or work on the sabbath or touch a menstruating woman as well, so I just try to concern myself with what Jesus says. And since he does not condemn them or tell us to, I go to the part where he tells me not to judge. So because I trust Jesus I don't judge gay people and those who say they go to hell are putting themselves above Jesus and how can that be right?

Some have looked through the bible, sure Jesus talked badly about them and ended up at least less certain about their own prejudice.

I do not go to church or believe in any religion so I know I was...manipulating some. But damn it, if they are going to base their beliefs of right and wrong on Jesus, they ought to pay attention to what he said.

I don't have the energy anymore, I am not as patient, I'd as soon slap some as talk to them about it. Hypocrites weary me. Your tiler is new at this conversion and might learn to judge less and less. I hope so.

But would that accomplish anything (other than an untiled bathroom)? I think you did just fine.

I like to defer to Socratic method on issues like these. I think if you present yourself in a friendly manner and truly listen to people; to get them to speak AND think about the issues they believe, you have a much better chance of seeing a change. If they are forced to think beyond the talking points about their beliefs, to truly be introspective and try to justify WHY they believe, they force themselves into rationality.

It obviously won't work for everyone, but I think it'll work better than yelling and confronting. It is tough to lay off the yelling and confronting though! B-)

n/t

It really goes to show that we can't take anyone for granted as being lost to the Republicans, and that we can and should be trying to reach these people, no matter how reprehensible we may find some of their beliefs to be.

Apparently 21% of evangelical Christians voted for Kerry. As much as I wish it wasn't so, these people make up a significant segment of the American electorate. We need to present a message that shows how our party's values are more in line with their beliefs than the Repugs, and do it without abandoning our own principles. The Bible says "Thou shalt not kill." is a perfect example.

too many are.

I just knew your story was going to have an ending I wouldn't like but I was wrong! Thanks for the surprise.

The Christian Coalition doesn't represent me. And it doesn't represent my Baptist friend. She is a lesbian and I told her about the "culture of lesbianism" thing and she said that may be the Christian Coalition but that is not her.

There are some believers who don't believe in *.

It's refreshing to hear about Christians with common sense. I think there a quite a few of them out there and they just don't speak out.

What heady times we live in huh?

Wow. I was surprised! Oh and I betcha his brother is probably still gay unless he's bi. But at least he didn't vote for Bush and he's not totally blind like some people who are republicans.

Q - What happens to little Chinese babies who die and never heard the word Jesus in their life?

A - They go to hell.

Our superstitions prove we are not far evolved from other animals.

Being pro life means being for life - at all stages, before birth, during lifetime in all ways - having decent housing, education and healthcare, reaching out to needy, caring for sick, elderly, not executing criminals and working to avoid war.

W believes there should be no abortion - yet, once a child is born, he does not care how that child lives - he believes his job is done.

I met a college professor recently who works in the area of reproductive rights. He suggested that W and other republicans were not just pro birth, they were pro fertilization - and once the egg was fertilized - their job was done.

This culture of life phrase is so not the truth.

last year. We started talking. They clearly felt "closer" to the repubs in terms of "family values" issues. But they voted for Kerry, not Bush, principally because of the war. They had six sons and were terrified at Bush's warmongering.

onenote