I must be in the minority here.....

Am I the only one who doesn't want a messiah?
Am I the only one who doesn't want someone who makes me swoon and get all tingly like an adolescent school girl with her first crush?
Am I the only one who thinks that people in general don't want to be lectured to or told that they are idiots by someone who themself has a ton of flaws?
Am I the only one who doesn't want to see us turn into republicans and treat ANY of our politicians like some divine chosen being sent down from the heavens above to touch our heads and make us all feel like the rapture has arrived?
Am I the only one who thinks that as important as this election is, and as much as is at stake, and as much as I want * out, that the solution to our problems is not to treat this as a some sort of crusade with a white knighted leader who will make us all weep and raise our flags on a march to full capitulation of all non-believers and total and complete victory?

Because if I am, I've got news for you. None of our guys fits this bill.

Am I the only one who simply wants a good, solid, liberal candidate and doesn't care if he or she has flaws or may have done some or said some things I don't agree with but in the end who I'll be able to reasonably and rationally convince some people who may be able to be swayed to vote for our guy when they may not normally, and who will still do a 1,000,000,000,000 times better job than is being done now?

Because if I am, then I got news for you. Any one of our guys fits this bill.

I think people do want a new Kennedy and to be inspired. Dean seems to offer that.

I can see the logic in your posistion, but I want to be follow someone too.

no do I need a leader. I think the original poster is 100% correct. And the LAST thing we need is another Kennedy - a war-mongerer whose main economic policy was to cut taxes for rich people. No thanks.

He is a one-man revolution. With Edwards as VP, America can see another end to fascism.

But I just cannot get into that mentality. None of these guys is a one man revolution, just like Bush wasn't for the repubs. They are all just mean trying to find a niche in politics. Dean just happens to have found a niche convincing people he's some sort of liberal revolutionary. Which is great, but it remains to be seen if he can ride that either to the nomination or to victory. Although I'm sure I'll hear about who is to blame if he doesn't.

and his worshippers on here jumping down the throats of anyone who disagrees in the slightest. Dean is simply not electable, and I think Dems voting in the primaries are finally starting to see that.

And Dean has far more corporate ties than you'd care to imagine. He's a centrist, and NOT the flaming liberal he's currently painting himself to be.

not Dean. He's even said such.

And why is it that only Dean supporters are the ones who "jump down the throats of anyone who disagrees in the slightest"? I get a little fucking tired of the double-standard around here that dictates that any candidate's supporters may defend their candidate passionately, unless that candidate is Dean. Get over it.

Even if he himself hasn't said it outright, many of his supporters on here have claimed as such and it is implied in the usage of the "democratic wing of the democratic party" line that Wellstone always used, and also the whole emphasis on "the base!!".

There's nothing wrong with it, but let's not be disingenuous here.

but this part of the discussion was kicked off by a poster claiming that Dean is a revolutionary.

Nah, that doesn't conjure up the image of a leftist. I hear "revolution" and I immediately think "centrist"!! :-)

NOT "get over it", because there is no double standard on here in that regard, in fact it's the other way around. I've seen it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in any thread involving Dean whatsoever.

It was especially apparent last week after his ridiculous Iowa speech. It seemed that no one could express the slightest bit of criticism at all about Dean, without bringing the wrath of his mighty DU army down on them. And that's getting pretty fucking tiresome, frankly.

a lot of people don't seem to be able to handle the truth that none of these guys is perfect. and heaven help you if you think that knowing the whole truth is of any value in determining who to vote for.

who jump downthe throats of any who disagree (which BTW encompasses folks from all campaigns) are those who state opinions as facts.

I often wonder about folks who view themselves in such a way as to actually think their opinions equal facts.

And Dean doesn't claim to be a liberal, he's a centrist and made no secret of it. But he's passionate none the less. One doesn't have to be in an extreme end of a spectrum to be passionate and THAT is a fact.

Julie

dems painted their own person vision of the ideal dem candidate. I was one of them. The I started researching all of the candidates. It's really difficult to find out much about Dean even today. I had to search the archives of VT papers to learn about his pro corporate/ anti-enviro record.
For someone who touts the internet, his website offers little interaction and almost no info on his endorsements.
I want to beat *! That's my motivation.

He had private meetings with big corporate donors in Vermont, and he shat on the environment when it suited the corporate interests. I support the guy but you CAN'T misrepresent the facts to make him look like the only guy who isn't corporate. For Christ's sake, if he wasn't corporate he would be a guy who could win from my heart alone, and the only one who fits that bill is Kucinich. Dean is corporate, sorry--but he is a Park Avenue, Ivy League Dem who rolled over for corporations in his state. He's one of the best candidates, but he sure as HELL isn't holy in this regard and I'm sick of people telling me he is. I know my favorite candidates--Dean is one of them. Do you?

his/her country, population, equity, civil rights, the long-term future, and upholding the constitution (including the separation of church and state) in an honest, forthright manner. I want someone not afraid to speak out, but will place the country's interests over their own ego. I want someone who will work closely with their well-chosen staff and cabinet, in an informed, non-detached and "buck stops here" way. No more CEO pResidents. No more shadow Presidents cloaked as Vice Presidents (although I don't mind if the VP fills experience gaps either domestically or in foreign policy as long as the pResident does not defer these issues totally).

I see possible combinations of these in all of the candidates (ignoring Lieberman for the time being because I can't agree with so many of his positions).

Nor a God, not a Messiah, not a perfect human being.

Just someone with the same qualities of leadership, the same sense of unwavering belief in a set of principles and the same ability and willingness to communicate that in uncomprimising, but positive terms that people can relate to.

Of course, I mean a liberal/progressive set of beliefs.

I want ANYONE to beat Bush. I'm choosing Kerry now, but my support is 100% behind whoever gets the nod.

show he's an enthustiac human - not divine -just a good man who will make a president that will be good for our nation - not to mention we are going to love his wife.

I have my doubts about Edwards, though. No way does a 50 year old look that young

;-)

O8)


Peace
DR

I feel bad for his wife, because he looks so much younger than he is, that it makes his wife look a lot older. Not that that matters to me at all, nor should it matter to anyone. Unfortunately, to a lot of people, it does matter.

i have a lot of respect for her. they have enough money that she could have chosen to be nipped and tucked into looking younger but it seems she doesn't feel the need to.

Thank you for reminding me of that. I forgot that Dean is the only one admitting to be human. The others are still claiming to be animatronic life forms.

Ma'am he's needs a bit of training to get that almost inaudible holler to the level of a "Rebel Yell" In fact 4 to 16 ounces of Rebel Yell will help him, just in case he gets to feeling vocal again!!! :)

Just look at policy and electability and you will make a choice. But don't criticize others for their passion. The guy you discribe isn't going to win anything.

Nobody is more passionate about beating the repubs in November than I am. But when people's passions become so slavishly devoted to one individual (Kerry, Clark, Dean, I don't care who) and put all their eggs in one basket then it becomes a cult of personality which I have no use for. Every single one of our candidates will be passionate about winning in November. But no matter how passionate they are, it's not a revolution, it's not a crusade, it's not anything other than a particularly tough election with a lot at stake.

Thank you.

What you think is sensible... everyone else is slavish.

The minority is just very vocal.

:hi:

I think there was a reason Jesus didn't dabble in politics.

There are two that have convinced me of their sincerity.

I don't want to have to "reasonably and rationally convince some people" of someone who hasn't convinced me. I wouldn't fight AGAINST them - but it would be difficult to fight FOR them.

I'm so sick of people holding other candidates to impossible standards, while at the same time rationalizing and tying themselves into knots to explain away the faults of their own candidate. Who is convinced by blind loyal bullshit? Jesus, the only guy who could possibly win me by being a leftist hero is Kucinich, and we'd STILL have to chat about his flag amendment vote.

You're not alone.

:toast:

Of course we all LONG for a messiah. I was just talking with friends the other day about - where is this generation's Martin Luther King or Bobbby Kennedy? Have politics just changed so much that there is no room anymore for someone who really speaks his/her mind?

Why haven't any of the democratic candidates tried the Kennedyesque approach to campaigning? That idea of Camelot - that we can be so much more, and calling Americans individually to live up to that? The most rousing thing I hear from campaigns these days is "I'll fight for you." Except of course, they never actually do.

If you're up for being our Messiah, I'll sure support ya'. love.

...but this is exactly what Dennis Kucinich has been talking about his entire campaign! He truly has a vision that's quite apart from the others, IMHO-- a populist liberalism that harkens back to JFK and FDR. He doesn't just stand for "fighting for us", he actually HAS in the House and all through his career.

Of course, you wouldn't know that by the media coverage his campaign gets, or the discussion of the issues that (does not) occurr in the press.