With sorrow, I am leaving Democraticunderdeground.com.

I saw a thread today that has driven me to do this.

Back in the mid 1970’s I served with the US Army Corps of Engineers. I was seconded to the Civil Defense Preparedness Agency My job included rescue and retrieval of people who were caught in natural disasters. I participated in several of these missions, almost all of them floods. The events of the last 10 days have brought all that back to me.

I have carried the dead bodies of men, women, and children drowned in these floods back to collection sites.

People who drown have swollen, waterlogged bodies, and their faces swell up and look like newborn babies. Some of those who I found and carried had their eyes open in hideous death masks, and I have never forgotten those faces. Nor have I ever gotten the smell of the corpses out of my nostrils, now three decades later.

Today, I saw on a site a photograph posted as an initial post of a dead man whose body was being devoured by dogs. The photo horrified me, and almost as bad, that it would be posted at Democraticunderground.com. Looking at it hurt my soul. That man was someone’s son, perhaps a father or brother with loved ones still searching and praying almost beyond hope now that he was still alive. The value of his life deserved better even in death than posting a photo of his corpse on Democraticunderground.com with dogs tearing at his flesh.

Although the thread had a warning of “graphic” attached, I opened the thread. I opened it so I could to see the body of a dead person who died in the disaster, not to gawk at death, because I have been closer to it than a mere image. I did this to burn in my mind an image of that person so I would never forget him, so even though that person was dead, still he would live on if nowhere else but my own memory. I owe the dead that much at least. To remember them.

But I broke down in tears when I saw that dead man’s body being eaten by dogs.

I cannot express fully my anguish at looking at that man’s body as tears flooded my keyboard when I saw it.

I cannot, will not support, or be member of a site that allows postings of photos that desecrates, for political gotcha’ games or propaganda purposes the bodies of those who once lived and died in such a horrible way.

Our side is supposed to be better than that.

I thought, perhaps foolishly that this site was populated by the seraphim order of angels of our better nature, that our side knows better, is better, that our side respects life and even death better than that.

I was wrong.

Goodbye.

failure that led to the disaster in New Orleans. I will stay at DU and I will do what is needed to bring the Democratic Party back into power. The Democrats must me practical and what is needed to win.

more bad things, such as shooting animals. The animals aren't responsible; they are only surviving.

Bush is responsible for not getting much more aid in at least 72 hours earlier than he did: if he had, the bodies might be all gathered by now; the death count would be much lower; the horrors of people in the Convention Center, Superdome, and waiting on freeways and rooftops would not be there.

Posting the photo you did (I didn't see it; the description was enough) helps nothing. If you must, post a photo of a body (with face not visible); that won't result in animals being shot.

I had to re-register and I don't have enough posts yet to start a thread. PLEASE SOMEONE post this in latest news and wherever we can get DU'ers to act:

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/photography/2005/katrin...

Please this needs to get out and picked up by the major media FAST

:shrug:

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/photography/2005/katrina_video/straydogs.html

it is www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/photography/2005/katrina_video/straydogs.html

We need to see your perspective on things and to understand your experiences - these are the things that make this forum strong and teach us all every day.

I feel for your experiences - those memories must be difficult for you, particularly at a time when we know thousands of people are doing that very thing right now in New Orleans.

Um.......over reacting. Blame all of us because of one picture. My Advise. If you cant handle "Graphic" stuff dont open the thread.

They should go where they feel welcomed and leave the rest of us alone.

this must be terribly difficult for you
to see and relive what happened

i have not seen the thread you reference but im trusting that it was not posted for political gotcha but to share the truth of what is and what has happened

please take good care
i hope you wont stay away but i understand that this is too much
it is brutal and it is all too real

sending you many hugs friend

However, I believe in free press; FEMA & Bush are trying cover up their deaths.
That will not honor them in the least, each person is important.

There are a wide range of people at DU and many different views.

I've wept at stuff I've found here too. and stuff i disagree with most heartily.
But I ain't going away.
Stay, or take a hiatus. Then come back. Please? We need all the help and solidarity we can get.

your decision. I understand such a post could disturb you, but please don't let it color your perspective on this entire site. We (DU) are comprised of tens of thousands of souls from across the planet. No one person speaks for the site and that a post appears does not in any way signify an endorsement by DU or it's users.

Since you did not alert it Moderators might not have been aware of it's existence.

Peace,

Wickerman
DU moderator

and tender hearts hurt when viewing human suffering and death without dignity.

Most of us are compassionate and caring people who would prefer not to view the most sickening of sights, but it does bring reality uncomfortably close and reminds us how fragile life is.

The person who posted the picture was probably not trying to be callous and uncaring. It was, however, unnecessary because there are other pictures that could have had the same impact on our psyches but less graphic in content. We must be careful to show respect for those who lost their lives and grieve for them and their families.

Maybe the mods weren't aware of it but if they had been I'm sure they would have taken it down right away.

As unpleasant as it is, the story of the aftermath of Katrina must be shown in it's cold and cruel entirety to shock the public consciousness. Just the vision of mothers and little children pleading for food and water should be enough to shake us from our apathy.

Please don't judge us all by the actions of a few. Stay, because your input is important.

"I opened it so I could to see the body of a dead person who died in the disaster, not to gawk at death, because I have been closer to it than a mere image. I did this to burn in my mind an image of that person so I would never forget him, so even though that person was dead, still he would live on if nowhere else but my own memory. I owe the dead that much at least. To remember them."

...seems to be the reason it was posted. I haven't seen the thread, so I can't say for certain, but I know that I'm looking at such images as well, for the same reasons you state, and I believe that such an image would have accomplished that.

How is showing the image a descration? It's truth. And the people who REALLY need to see it, need to see the worst of it. It's not just that people are dead, they ARE being desecrated by the failures of government.

of the disasters that have come about because of the incompetent and criminal actions of this administration.

We NEED to see what they have done. We NEED for everyone to see what they have done. Not just in NO but also in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is no outrage because no one sees the bodies. The deaths are meaningless to most Americans without the visuals. NO bodies, no body bags, no flag draped coffins, no dead and maimed children, no outrage. No blame.

The actual desecration occured long before that picture was taken, wouldn't you agree? I believe that we must see these things in order to fully appreciate what has happened, and the negligence involved. I saw the thread, and it was not a comforting picture, but if it opened a few eyes, then it accomplished what a million words could not. Be well and safe. :hippie: :thumbsup:

I read where other people thought that was maybe what was happening. The picture itself did not show that.
I am sorry and I hope you don't leave. The world out there is so censored and the only place I feel I can get a better feel for the events is here where so many people have so much access to news sources, and feel at liberty to post them.

or for propaganda.

It was for accountability. If the media isn't allowed in to see the devastation, then we must become the media. The complete horror must be seen, so that those responsible can be held accountable.

This goes beyond politics for me. People in nursing homes were left to die. My dad was in a nursing home. That is appalling.

I'm sorry for your experiences. But unlike the Republicans who say that we shouldn't show pictures to respect the dead, we would like to make sure they didn't die in vain and that such things never happen again. If that means things get graphic, well, that may be what has to happen.

Again, if you're still here, thank you for all the work you've done. But know that most of us aren't playing gotcha.

:cry:

But when it comes to getting the truth out at what this bunch of moron criminals are letting take place in the United State Of America,things like this shouldn't be swept under the rug.We NEED to uncover what the bu$h bastards have been hiding for years. "Compassionate Conservatives"? Whoa.....what a HUGE lie that has been. Not only did that picture make me sick,but everything that has happened since the hurricane has had me a wreck...sick,nervous,angry,outraged and depressed beyond belief. Hang in there,we need to fight these brownshirts with everything we've got. Together. :hi:

It must have brought back some brutal memories.

But PLEASE don't judge all of DU for this one post. So many times someone here will misread what I've posted and hurt me to the bone, but I remember that all of us here are eventually moving toward the same goal - whether crassly or kindly, but hopefully successfully.

Again, memory jolts hurt, and I wish a hug could make that jolt go away.

STARVING PETS ARE DEVOURING DEAD AMERICANS ON AMERICAN STREETS and what's important is that you don't see anything that makes you cry?

The picture does NOT desecrate that anonymous body. Neither, frankly, does the dog. PRETENDING IT ISN'T THERE IS DESECRATION.

But you protect your delicate sensibilities. Stay away from the emotional. I didn't sleep all night after seeing that picture which is exactly why I SHOULD see it. THIS HAPPENED. HERE.

Never again. Do you think I thought it was desecration to see the bodies of my family, other families, piled like wood? But I made myself look. The pictures of Nazi efficiency carried to its heartless end were IMPORTANT to see. If you don't look, you can deny.

LOOK! AN AMERICAN CITY WAS MURDERED! And all that's important are your delicate sensibilities.

Me, I will forward that picture to everyone on this earth if I can. None of us should be able to sleep while this is allowed. While this is the national policy.

I told my husband the other day,I feel like this is a totally different country since the bu$h nazis took over. I can go sit out on my deck and look around,and nothing seems real anymore. This is an ongoing nightmare where you can't wake up.I used to enjoy life,but not anymore. I wish I could wrap my arms around ALL those good folks and comfort them,make the hurt and suffering go away. But I can't. I just have to wait and hope that these cruel,racist bigots will have a big payday coming. I hope and pray that they suffer a hundred times more than they've made everyone else suffer.

were able to pretend, that nothing too awful was happening in Nazi Concentration Camps. I find those pictures to be horrific. There are still people who deny it ever happened. They might prevail, if the pictures were not available ~

This administration is banning the press from the recovery of the dead operation. Why???

They let this happen, and until Americans don't need to see it with their own eyes, pictures are the only way to prove what's going on, here and in Iraq and Afghaninstan, in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.

What suggestion do you have to make those who are willfully blind, believe, without seeing the pictures, that these horrors were allowed to happen while our administration, shopped and ate birthday cake??

Rightwingers do not want pictures from Iraq, now from LA to be seen. Why is that? As long as denial is allowed, this will continue, there will be more bodies, hidden from view so that Americans dont have to look at what their government is doing.

I'm sorry for your feelings, mine hurt also, I don't need to see the pictures, I know we are lied to all the time. But Bush supporters do need to see them, because no amount of reasoning has had an effect. And as a result Iraqis are being blown to bits every day!! It's worth my feelings to stop just one of those splattered bodies of an Iraqi child from ever happening again. I'll take feeling a little sick if it means ending the need for pictures.

While the photo is likely very horrific (I haven't seen it yet), REALITY has been horrific these last several years.

NO has been Bush's domestic killing fields, while Baghdad was hs foreign one. Frequently photos are posted that show the graphic reality of Iraq. Most do not post it because they like to see such death or because they don't show the victim compassion or have some sick violence fetish. It is often the exact opposite. By showing these photos of reality, it is hoped that atleast one more person will be convinced of the horrible injustices committed.

As hard as it is to see, I have to agree with you that "PRETENDING IT ISN'T THERE IS DESECRATION."

The Bush gang would like nothing better than to see Americans lost in emotions and confusion. Makes it easier for them to lead us by our noses.

Meanwhile, our fellow citizens, our fellow human beings, must be acknowledged and remembered. We must witness their suffering.

Thank you.

I agree about seeing horrible photos, but where would we be if photos from the past weren't brought to our attention...photos from WWII, Dachau, Vietnam... The acknowledgement & proof that these horrors exist help us to stop the horror. This regime must be held accountable and sadly, sometimes photos like that are the powerful evidence.

I'm new here, but I have noticed that people do warn you when photos are extremely graphic in nature. I don't want to view them, and so I don't follow the link. But I know they exist as evidence.

I haven't seen the thread, and have argued against people here that think this kind of stuff should be televised! I too have seen dead bodies that were recovered from whater after 5-10 days, and those lying in the 90+ temps with 90+ humidity. I know what they look like!

Some here on DU want the shock factor to have a severe impact on those who still support ShrubCo. They have a point too.

I'm not sure who's right. I think I want Pubs to be shocked too! But I don't want anyone to suffer lasting emotional damage because we were trying to prove a point.

I hope you'll come back some day to rejoin us here on DU. Sometimes, some of us are wrong, but I believe everyone here has good intentions to get America out of a big mess!

as horrified as you were.

Please, Kodi, reconsider. You are one of the most thoughtful people in the GD forums and though you have angered me as often as I've agreed with you, you have never failed to make me think.

You have such a unique perspective borne out of real experience as the ones you outlined above, It's a valuable contribution that is not easily replaced, if replacement is even possible.

I'm assuming that the Mods and Admin may have not had a chance to address the photo at the time.

We ARE above that, I believe.

Please reconsider. I certainly can understand what prompts you to do this, but I do believe the vast majority of progressives are above that.

If you must leave, know that I will indeed miss you.

Take care, my friend.

Ta - ta...

.... had ill intentions. But I wonder about this statement?

"I cannot, will not support, or be member of a site that allows postings of photos that desecrates, for political gotcha’ games or propaganda purposes the bodies of those who once lived and died in such a horrible way."

Did the poster say that was his intention? Or is that merely your intepretation of it?

In any event, I'm sorry that you had to re-experience something so wrenching. Peace to you.

perhaps the words at that post speak much MUCH more about what Koni is wounded by than the picture itself??

They sure did for me-
and depressed the hell out of me- thinking that 'we' are the 'party' that really 'cares'-

Anger, and hurt often bring out the worst in people- and that can be ugly-

guess that isn't a political 'virtue'.

blu

.... I almost never look at threads that say "graphic", I'm upset enough already.

I'm all for shoving this failure in the face of the people responsible, we don't need to demean the dead to do that though.

There have been close to 18 million posts on DU since its inception. Registrations are going to hit 80,000 soon. There is, inevitably, going to be a diversity of perspectives, from the naive to the nutter, from moderate to just this (or the other) side of Leon Trotsky, from conspiracy theorists to awe-inspiring activists, from tne near illiterate to the first-class writer.

Leave if you must - goodness knows I've taken breaks with the expectation that I wouldn't return - but to peg your departure to one photo in one person's post is just a little bit silly, your background and experience notwithstanding. Many of us here have expertise in one area or another, and I'm sure we cringe when we see the uninformed write with supposed knowledge about these subjects. But we chalk it up to one of those things and get on with life.

If you can't do that, fine, but skip the excuses.

I understand how you feel, although I did not look at the DU image you did, last night on CNN they were showing mutilated bodies. I heeded the DU warning and didn't look at today's graphic images. Some of us just can't take it, and in my opinion nobody should become so desensitized that they accept it.

The problem is that the disturbing images are in fact the horrible reality that is playing out right now, in front of the world. So posting images here or on CNN is not the real problem. The problem is the reality that is happening.

I don't understand what type of society has allowed this to occur. I understand the need to save lives first, but that should have been a week ago. Meanwhile, how can we leave dead bodies laying around for days and days on end? And now dogs will be shot for their attempts to survive. The entire thing is horrible and disturbing.

The bodies should have been picked up days ago... right about the time we started dragging people out of their own homes. Many of those people don't need to be saved right now, they are dry and safe.

DU is not to blame for the horror.

for your hurt :hug:
and for all the people who have suffered the loss of loved ones in this disaster.
I don't want to have see all the death but I worry that fema denying the press will result in somebody never finding out what happened.
I saw that thread but didn't look. I would have requested its removal from this forum had I looked since my teenage son reads this forum and that seems unusually brutal.

I hate to see a thoughtful sensitive member leave.

The moderators should stand up and establish some guidelines for pictures.

But I must admit that yesterday I thought about posting a picture from Steve Gilliard's website that showed an alligator in some broken down building. He was laying on concrete and blood obviously smeared around his mouth.

Why did I think about it? Because I want, and others at DU want, people to know just how bad this situation is, to pressure the government to take action to ensure that needless deaths do not happen again. And pictures like this one help accomplish that.

But I decided not to.

People make mistakes and whoever posted the dog picture was wrong. There are limits.

This was wrong.IMO,it was not sensitive, thoughtful or respectful to that person who died.Every group has their radicals.There are times it dismays me to see the quick judgments passed here.What makes us
Democrats is that we should and can do better.We should always remember to put ourselves in others places and to reason with our hearts and heads as well as our passion for truth.

I seen the post you are speaking about...yes its bad..the dead and the dog .....but thats where the truth comes in.
this is what is happening in our country today as we post........One cannot think that that all is well and that all bodies are covered and picked up on demand..its not possible.

as in the Iraq war.....we see some pictures of the dead but we go to other sites to seek the truth.......and our own country does not allow the soldiers who come home in the dark of night to be seen in their caskets.............the media had no problem showing us Saddam's sons when they were shot and laid out............this was the administrations way of saying "see.we got 2 of the "bad" guys"......

So dear DU'er if you feel that you have to depart.so be it..but I will stay and I will keep my head out of the sand........as I want to know "what the country is doing in my name"!

some common goals and shared values that some of us feel more keenly than others. There are other takes on showing that picture. It is shocking. Sadly, there are some folks who need more shocks than others to move them to action.

Would I post a picture like that? No. Would I push to ban a picture like that? No. Would I leave DU because of a picture like that? Again, no.

I was extremely shocked by many of the early Iraq photos of the tortured and the raped. I questioned the value of showing such pictures at that time, but I now believe sometimes we need to see the horror.

That's the crux of the issue. The administration still won't release more photos from Abu G. By hiding it, the public will never know. The "hiding" allows this cabal to get away with what they have.

This is going to be really ugly, but it's the truth. The cold, hard, stone, truth.

America better get a strong stomach. Soon.

in reading your final post my heart ached, for your words ring true-maybe we SHOULDNT be seeing things like this... of COURSE we shouldn't. But words like "playing gotcha games" ("games"?!) are JUST what Dubya&Co are counting on. NOT gotcha it's a-c-c-o-u-n-t-a-b-i-l-i-t-y. For accountability we need truth and TRUTH hurts like hell.

Please reconsider, I don't know you, but I believe this is NOT quitting time.

let me only say that i hope you reconsider ... our movement needs people like you ...

while the judgment is obviously yours to make, i will say that while we may indeed have one or two angels among us, we are but mere humans engaged in struggle ...

i'm afraid the standard you set is a bit too high for most communities to live up to ... but most of us are well meaning and i think both you and we deeply believe it is worth fighting for ...

please reconsider ... only fools would not respect your judgment to leave or your judgment to return ...

You wanted to see the photo in order to burn it into your memory, but then you have anguish over the photo being posted here. On top of that, you're punishing the site for the action of one poster.

I mean, there was a warning. There have been plenty of graphic photos posted on this site. If you really didn't want to see it because of your experiences, you shouldn't have opened the thread.

Anyway, Good luck.

I hope you'll reconsider. PM me if you're still here.

to help himself. Sorry to upset everyone further, but dogs are our beloved friends, a true gift from G-d. If that is all they can find to eat, they are more than welcome if the meal is me.

and go into a POTTERS GLAZE BUCKET!
I too, am someone's Daughter, Mother, Wife, Sister...etc

:shrug:

I am not going to try and talk you out of leaving and cannot begin to comprehend the pain you are in. I am truly sorry.

I too saw the diary and chose not to open it, I know myself and my imagination implants pictures in my mind that give me nightmares as it is. Perhaps I am a coward, but as you have, I have seen enough reality in my life to "get it" without being slapped in the face. I agree with you that it is disrespectful of the person and their family to without their consent make that photo public unless the identity was hidden (not sure if it was since I didn't look).

I personally do not need to be force feed reality.

On another note,

There are many times, daily in-fact, that I see posts that I personally consider immature, tasteless and self defeating to what I believe our "goals" as a Democratic band are. It bothers me when I watch ourselves stoop to imitating Rovian tactics that we find so offensive in an attempt to make a point or play "gotcha".

BUT...

I remind myself that DU is a representation of US as a whole. It is our own little piece of reality. It is not an elitist club where only those that meet someone's standard are allowed to participate and that I believe is its strength and beauty. Being that, the very essence of "freedom" I can only hope that some who through, over enthusiasm, short sightedness, immaturity or just not stopping to think might through our "guidance" learn to see the consequences of their words and grow through our support.

DU NEEDS people like you and others who can help to improve and strengthen us. Please do not give up.

of the New York Times. In George Bush's America people are left to die, their corpses are left to rot and family pets are left to fend for themselves. The animals are trying to survive . . . they're animals. Get over it. (I've seen floaters, too. It's not nice, but I don't want this mess "prettified" for public consumption. It is what it is and the buck stops at George Bush.)

n/t

Thats the trouble with americans, we don't want to see the ugly truth of whats going on in the good old US of A. The media sugarcoats all of its news and doesn't show more then a dust cloud or smoke rising in the distance when it reports on Iraq. Look at what most of the media did with stories about NO, they showed more people looting and sugarcoated the horrors of the superdome. Again, remember during the Veitnam war every night we saw the bodies and the destruction of war. Today the wars look like boy scout camp outs and everyones having a good time being shot at. Either you cover the whole story and get things out in the open or you play along with the republicans and pretend nothing bad happens to good folks, its all make believe or you actually see whats going on and see the horrors of the situation. Look at what sheepicans are saying about those that were left behind in NO, they should have walked out, or there were busses they just didn't want to leave ect. ect. ect. Sugarcoating the news only allows the republicans to say things aren't really that bad, didn't you watch the news last night?

but that’s what happened to that mans life and body. It’s the truth with no propaganda.

It's very important to document these peoples stories through photographs, even this man’s body being fed on by hungry dogs. Without photographs, we would have no memory and no mechanism to learn from failures nor would we grasp the enormity of what happened. It should be photographed so we can be a witness and preserved for historical reason. That’s why they photographed all the horrors after the Nazi concentration camps were liberated. They didn’t photograph the piles of bodies and death to gawk at, they did it so the photographs could testify for those people since they cant. IMO.

Triggered by the photos today. As such, we have to understand this person's reaction. I'm sorry he's blaming us, but still, I understand.

I've had long forgotten symptoms start coming to the surface the past week or so. It's entirely likely that that picture reminded him too much of his past experiences. :(

A reminder of what it's like for those who need to know:

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm

What are the symptoms of PTSD?

There are four main types of PTSD symptoms. A diagnosis of PTSD requires the presence of all categories of symptomatic responses:

*re-experiencing the trauma: flashbacks, nightmares, intrusive memories and exaggerated emotional and physical reactions to triggers that remind the person of the trauma.

*emotional numbing: feeling detached, lack of emotions (especially positive ones), loss of interest in activities

*avoidance: avoiding activities, people, or places that remind the person of the trauma

*increased arousal: difficulty sleeping and concentrating, irritability, hypervigilance (being on guard), and exaggerated startle response.

is clinically diagnosed with PTSD, the triggers are numerous, and don't need to be graphic or 'over the top'. It can be a smell, a sound, a certian slant of light- an item, like green wash cloths- a song
a facial expression.

I cannot speak for Koni- but having gone to the post and looked at it... what disturbed me the most, was the callous, almost macabre 'jokes' and flippant dismissal of the reality that this DEAD BODY was not just a 'thing' but a someone. And the fact that this occurs among people i seek community with- and believe to share common values with
hurts like hell.

It's not anything 'broken' in Koni- (in my opinion- course i'm 'broken' by this worlds standards) it's something missing in folks who miss the message of the value of LIFE- not some 'talking point'- not an abortion mantra- but the fucking reality of what death TRULY is and does.

sorry- for the rage.
blu

beneath that are not respectful of the man who has died. Some of the posts are respectful, others sound flippant.

I have tried to remember, however, that words in a post cannot do justice to express what the poster is feeling - electronic community is great, but we cannot read each other's body language to know where the poster is really coming from.

Typed words on a page are, by nature, cold. A comment that reads flippant when read on a computer screen could seem entirely different if we witnessed the poster's sadness and anger.

Peace.

Maybe it would shock the "faith based" community into seeing and
believing the destruction and incompetence of their dear leader.

A good dose of reality might enlighten some of them and finally
urge them to deal with the facts of this administration's
incompetence.

It is a lack of respect for life or death or dignity that enables
the Bush administration to proceed full speed ahead into such
abominable horror.

I'm sorry you were so terribly upset, but please don't blame DU
for the willingness to show the reality of life and death in
New Orleans. It needs to be shown.

Good luck.

And I sure appreciate the warnings on those posts. I never open any of them ever. Sorry to see you go.

I really, really appreciate the graphic warning on these posts. I can not look at them, I just can't take it.
Post them if you want, but please, don't forget the warning so I won't open it.

Dear Kodi,

you've seen such horrors first-hand and you know the reality of natural disasters and war.

But many of us simply don't know these horrors. We have led sheltered sanitized lives. We don't understand the ugliness and horror of natural disasters and wars.

I realize that there's the issue of human dignity as well. In that context, the photos are perhaps inappropriate. But still, they serve a useful purpose -- we need to imagine what it feels like if that body was someone we loved. It teaches us about empathy. It teaches us to be sensitive to the feelings of survivors. It motivates us to work harder than ever to make sure it never happens again.

Please come back....

I understand the need some feel to show in as graphic and horrible detail as possible what they see as the fault of those who have stolen our country. I really do. And I share the anger from which such thoughts are born. I share the outrage that breeds this need. I share the sadness ... the disappointment .... the hopelessness, even.

But we don't need to show these pictures. We really don't. I saw the picture of the two dogs chewing the leg of a dead person. And to be honest, it neither shocked nor disgusted me. This sort of thing is normal in this situation. One need only honestly think of the aftermath to know that.

But these pictures have the effect of breeding outrage. And as much as they might breed outrage sought in showing them, so will they breed the opposite outrage. Outrage at those who show them.

And then there is the thoughtlessness associated with showing such images. Imagine that dead man with the dogs at his leg as your father.

Imagine it.

Your father.

Dead.

Being eaten by what was formerly someone's cherished pets.

Is that the image you want to take with you forever? Or would you rather keep your father's loving smile as the memory.

And even if that body can't be identified, for every person who lost someone, that body - that picture - is representative of their own loss. It **could** have been their father.

I am not opposed to showing bodies. Show every one of them. But please. Show them in the coffins. Show the endless line of coffins. Show the 5,000 coffins that will come from just New Orleans. Or will it be 10,000? Show them all. Show them from Waveland and Biloxi and Bay St. Louis. Show them all.

The message is the same.

But PLEASE. We are a group who cares about people.

I see this picture's posting as less than well thought. I understand the motive. I know it is pure. HONEST I do. But I think it is wrong.

But I project myself into the plight of the survivors. And these thoughts I've just related are the result of that projection.

There have been far too many tears over the last five years. Please let us not be the cause of more.

I am on your side, kodi.

n/t

n/t

n/t

that in itself should warn you.....that it may offend..or effect your mind......kind of like TV when we have parental controls.....don't open the thread.......its that easy!

It has become about wanting such pictures in the media

It isn't that easy, friend.

And I want Kodi back, he's one of DU's best, IMHO.

Cause this is all annoying to me.

It was labeled 'Graphic'.

It said it was of a dead person.

If you don't want to be disturbed, I strongly suggest you should avoid threads with titles like "Graphic pictures of dead person."

This seems like YOU imposing YOUR sentimentality on others. It feels like censorship to me. It is EXACTLY what the White House wants to do. "Don't show the icky pictures cause it will upset people." Some people NEED to feel outraged over this. Some people would think it was dishonoring that dead person to hide what happened to them.

You don't. So you shouldn't look.

post.

It was the use of the image for partisan slamming. IE, people don't have respect for the dead they see them as tools to use to help meet an agenda (political) or make a case against someone they do not like (bush).

Hurricanes and flooding are a part of life, have been as long as we have been here. People die in them. Sometimes it takes a long time to find bodies. Animals eat them. Pretty natural.

How does that relate to bush? How would we feel if the RW was showing the same photo and talking about how bad a job LA's gov did?

The dead are not ours to use, but if we must do so to illustrate a point then we should have enough respect for the dead to at least wait until they are in a coffin, etc, before we bandy their corpse about to prove our points to others.

Do we think all americans are idiots and need shocked into believing and feeling what we do? Did not the person posting the photo already feel a certain way (and believe a certain thing) before posting the photo? If so, why were they not able to articulate the reasons they felt what they did on the issue without using someone else's tragic demise to prove the point?

Now, I can and DO understand the effects of such photos in shocking people out of a melancholy mental state - like in the brutality of war showing people what they are sending their kids into. But this is not war, it is a natural disaster and whether bush was president or dean or clinton or whomever things like this will still happen during large natural disasters. You may not see them, but what from the OP was saying many have seen them but chose not toss out photos of the victims out of respect for the dead.

Just my 2 cents.

which is pretty awful- and seeing it does hammer home the 'point'- are the flippant comments that it brought to life.
And Kodi, and Husband2sparky you are absolutely right- IMAGINE seeing this photo and knowing it was your son, your loved one.... and having that image forever imprinted on you.
I don't advocate hiding the reality of suffering and death that is a result of the foolish bungling of what anyone with half a brain saw coming. Maybe there is a 'better' way to expose this outrageous reality. But the post, and the replies that followed didn't honor the death of this person- or do anything but feed a sick kind of macabre 'i told you so' attitude, without thinking about the REALITY that this WAS someone special to someone in this f...d up world-

I too want to hold DU to a standard that probably doesn't exist. and will never exist. But that doesn't mean settling for less than 'adequate' behaviour, or apologizing or (like bush could never bring himself to do, and likely never will) genuinely apologize for causing harm to others.

It's easy to 'distance' yourself from the humanity that this photo bears painful, agonizing witness too- especially if you've not dealt with the bodies of people, who no longer live- but who at one time held an essence, and a personality that was unique, loved and is forever lost.

Sorry, but i agree with Kodi, and H2S.

And i choose to believe there are many more who share that same sensitivity, and compassion- not to deny the truth, but because experience with the 'truth' is incredibly painful, if you don't harden your heart.

peace,
blu

son Emmet.

I am sure that took every bit of courage in her body. I am sure that people were shocked and revolted by what they saw.

I am sure she did the right thing.

And, in my opinion, she did the right thing and we are the better for her selfless act.

But it was **her** choice.

I, for one, feel grateful to her for that.

That's what this is all about.

It absolutely isn't. I generally agree with your posts and admire your point of view.

But I see it the same as you only different.

There is truth and there is spreading truth. And there is showing truth.

Let me use a movie analogy.

The hero and the heroine get it on. A boink.

In 1935, the movie would show them walk into a room ... and fade to black.

In 2005, the movie would show them walk into a room ... and the camera stays ... and watches .... and watches ... and watches.

Is the first message less clear than the second?

Pictures give reality to these kinds of disasters.

Like the WTC videos. You can hear that two planes slammed into the buildings, collapsing them and killing 3,000, but it doesn't have quite the same reality or emotional impact as when you actually see the video of not only the planes' impacts, but the people crying, the collapsing and the people running, the rescue effort, etc.

It's not the same without pictures. It brings reality to the news.

So that if you don't like to watch, you don't have to.

The thread had the word "GRAPHIC" in the title. No one was forced to open it. Only the people who felt is important for them to see the reality of what is going on should have seen it. Maybe some people opened the thread who were not as ready to see those kind of images as they thought. That is nobody's fault.

We know so little about the afterlife but what if those departed human souls feel that they are making their last contribution to the planet by nourishing the hungry animals that are struggling so desperately to survive along with everyone else. Personally, after I depart, it wouldn't bother me a bit to become part of the food chain. It's the way of Nature.....

in a post that was stated twice about graphic pictures. If you were adverse to seeing graphic pictures, why open the thread? Do we not all read at our own risk? Are the people suffering in NO the only ones 'allowed' to have witness to the horror? I'm baffled that this would be what sends you off.

and that's what you saw, with the added feature of an animal, a natural being looking for sustenance in a disaster area, eating the body. you chose to open the picture and now you're chastising "this site" for allowing it to be posted, as though an encapsulated bit of truth doesn't have the right to exist or be seen by anybody and should be censored. whatever.

Would it have been OK if it had been a graphic picture of a dead person sans dog?

This is censorship. It is sweet, gentle, chastising censorship, but it is censorship. It is one person saying what other adult people should see and what their reaction should be.

by definition that is an imposed (that is, by an authority) status. By the definition that you are using (one poster, posting an opinion = censorship) it would seem that you are imposing the same kind of attempted censorship (as in that such opinions shouldn't be voiced.) Ironic, eh?

cen·sor·ship ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snsr-shp)
n.
1.The act, process, or practice of censoring.
2.The office or authority of a Roman censor.
3.Psychology. Prevention of disturbing or painful thoughts or feelings from reaching consciousness except in a disguised form.


Which leads to the definition of censor(ing):

First, you have a misconception about the definition of censorship.

cen·sor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (snsr)
n.
1.A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable.
2.An official, as in the armed forces, who examines personal mail and official dispatches to remove information considered secret or a risk to security.
3.One that condemns or censures.
4.One of two officials in ancient Rome responsible for taking the public census and supervising public behavior and morals.
Psychology. The agent in the unconscious that is responsible for censorship.

The OP was condemning and censuring the whole board for a single post that they didn't feel fit within their own preconceived notion of what is correct. That is censorship by definition three under 'censor'.

Second, am I 'censoring' the OP because I have observed that their post was censorship? I don't think so. I am not telling them that they cannot voice their censoring opinion, just pointing out that it IS censorship.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

but this isn't the way to make it.

We have existing rules about revealing photos (offensive, basically) of living flesh, perhaps these rules should be applied to remains also. Personally, I have no problem with this.

And perhaps the question of what images can be directly linked, what pages (sites) can be linked to, etc, needs some more thought.

But dealing with the issue in the manner that you have chosen to (at the very least) calls your intentions into question.

And the real outrage is that people were left to die -- and that then their bodies were left for dogs to eat. True, disaster sites in third world countries are sometimes notable for their (unusually) well-fed dogs.

But this is America, and no matter what we may think of our fellow citizens, we come to their aid when they need it -- or at least when they so desperately need it.

But then again, maybe this isn't really America anymore. Maybe we are no more than a colony, where the citizen is no more than a consumer, and where there is nothing more to be expected than being sold a false bill of goods.

We have a lot of work to do and we need people like you to help us along.

Take a break if you must. But come back. We need your visions from your experiences.

I can't stand people who prefer to bury their heads in the sand rather than face the facts.

A better response by the federal government would have meant there would not be any dead bodies and starving dogs finally ready to eat human flesh rather than starve. I have worried that this was going to happen and I am sickened too but I want the truth to be known and nothing speaks like a photo.

You opened the thread to look at the dead person.

Then looking at the dead person freaked you out so badly you cannot stay here.

The thread was clearly marked as being graphic.

And lastly...you thought the DU was populated by a 'seraphim of angels'.

I think that we all have to work within our comfort zones. If you are uncomfortable here, then by all means, you shouldn't be here.

But I think it is fairly evident that a website that is called The DEMOCRATIC Underground is a politically motivated website.

I hope you change your mind.

don't leave, we need people like you on our side. Some people post things without thinking of others. My heart goes out to you. Please stick with us.

You have seen the reality following a disaster. It sounds like your reaction was a little like post-traumatic distress. I am very sorry. I do not open threads that warn viewers at times like this. But then, I also don't watch right-wing TV. I just know my limits. I don't believe that I should impose my limits on others. I just impose them on myself.

You are not the only in here that has smelled death! And yes, dogs and wildlife will feast on rotting corpses. It is not pretty, and it is not intended to be.

Just as Bush doesn't want photos of bodies returned from Iraq, he now doesn't want photos of the victims of Katrina. Who are the dead? They are people that could be alive today had the Bush regime had done something during the 3 days a category 5 hurricane churned in the Gulf of Mexico.

Let's see more photos of the deaths and misery that has been brought about by the criminal negligence of a government that cut funding earmarked for levee work in Louisiana in order to finance Bush's dirty war in Iraq.

I hate seeing these pictures and often wonder why people feel like they have do this. Aren't the horrific words enough to satisfy those who want the facts, or is it truly necessary to have a pictorial of someone's devasted home, scattered keepsakes, and in the end, a loved one's body floating face down in the putrid water?

But I stay. I don't look at the pictures, but I do realize that with the present administration, these pictures may be the only documentation that will someday be available for the families who will need both closure and justice.

I stay because I see the work that you are doing being translated to "looter control" instead of rescue and recovery.

And I stay because this is just plain wrong and we won't shut up about it.

Take time to think about this. If you decide not to return, please know that we will always care about you.

Lets face facts, if americans don't see it then its not fact. BTW, were you outraged that 2 photos were shown of survivers that had captions under them? One was of whites under it said survivers searching and finding food. The other was of blacks doing the samme exact thing only under that photo it stated, looters in NO.

Exactly right.

The truth must be shown. We must NOT allow this to "blow over".

That's why some people need to SEE.

Personally, I can't handle that kind of stuff. I change the channel when they put it on the TV. I literally cannot fall asleep because I keep replaying the scenes through my head. But I have a friend who forces herself to look at every horrific image. She feels like she owes it to the people and animals that are going through it. To her, it is like an homage. She feels like if they have to LIVE it, she should at least be able to LOOK at it. I can't do it.

To each his own.

I fully support your choice to view or not view whatever images you choose.

I abhor, on the other hand, the idea that this site (or any site) ought to censor its material out of a fear of giving offense. If we, as a community, choose to censor something among ourselves (which, of course, we have a right to do), then so be it. We're not "the government," after all, and thus we can censor as we wish and not violate the 1st amendment. Personally, though, I'd rather see the images. What's the old cliche? "The truth never hurt anybody?" Perhaps that's not true, but if I'm going to err, I'd prefer to err on the side of an open, tolerant society as opposed to an insular, and intolerant one.

for what that's worth ...

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--spelling.

Self censorship.

It needs to be practiced more.

I agree with you 100%. Before people try to impose their sense of what is correct on others, they should stop and think.

That's what's wrong with Big Media who we love to complain about.

I want to hear and see as many loonie, offensive, crackpot ideas I can to test my own.

Part of being an adult is the ability to be tolerant of others and to learn to take responsibility for ones own feelings and reactions. It's childish to "blame" others for what we happen to be thinking in response to external stimuli. Learn to control your own thoughts, don't let others control what you think.

I opened one, at the beginning of the War On Iraq, of an Iraqi boy with a flattened head and I totally lost it. Must husband had to hold me over the toilet while I puked and screamed and cried my heart out. Never again. I think it's in very poor taste and very traumatizing. I don't open them. Sorry to see you go, though. Not everyone on here is a sadist.

Cause I don't get that.

guise of being "honest." So, yes, I think there is a sadistic quality to it. Others play the "this will make them think the way I do" game using the shock factor. It's distasteful, disrespectful and sophmoric, and it usually backfires. But, hey, it's a free country. Post away. Some will look. Some won't.

I am not comfortable assigning motives to people when there is no proof in evidence.

In a post that is lost up there somewhere, I told of my friend who is making herself look at the pictures from both Iraq and New Orleans. She feels like turning away cheapens the experiences of the people in the pictures. I can't make myself look. It really does kind of freak me out. But I don't think I can assign a blanket reasoning for the people who either feel the need to look or the people who show the pictures. I know my friend. She is a good and kind woman. This is HER way of dealing with this. She feels that it is important to see the truth. I am not comfortable judging that.

My opinions are my own. I share them for the sake of conversation. Blanket reasoning rarely works, but I stand by my convictions - for myself. I can only see the world through the eyes in my own head - the same way you see it through the eyes in yours and your friend hers. I would be willing to bet it's not "good" for anyone to look at those things, if they don't have to and it's not good for those that have to. That's where PTSD comes from. Self-inflicting overwhelming stress is as bad for one's health as smoking cigarettes. I'm sure that kind of stress causes some sort of cell damage, if not soul damage. We can understand the horror without the graphics. I can, anyway. I will save my soul for the unfortunate times I will not have the luxury of looking away. Others may feel the need to feel the pain and thus, the other side of the coin - masochism. This is not a statement of "judgement" in a moral sense. Self-flaggelation, or the acceptance of flaggelation from another, is just that. Some people need it. Some people don't.

that there is the...ummm...smug? assurance running through your posts that your way of dealing is the 'correct' way. Perhaps that is not your intention when you call others who are able and willing to deal with reality masochists...its just the impression I get. Perhaps you are not as arrogant as the assumption that people who are strong enough to deal with the truth of such photos are simply indulging in self-flagellation implies.

But it sure looks smug, PC and arrogant from here.

are somehow affecting the way you feel. While I truly understand you have faced terrific horrors - no pictures that I have seen in the press have actually shown "faces" of victims. Does this make it any less intolerable for you - probably not. Showing pictures of what has happened is the only way - IMHO -- to get people to remember and not let BushCo get away with another debacle.

Let me ask you this ... if I had never seen victims of the holocaust -- I may not have believed it either, would you? I may have thought it was some made up movie horror as some suggested.

Unfortunately, we must see and face ourselves in the mirror in order to be better and more understanding people. I respect your feelings, though I have not been on DU very long, I am a lifelong democrat, and will not let a few disagreements keep me from being one.

I hope you will reconsider - not everyone has had the experiences you have faced.

While I feel terrible that the photo brought back horrific memories for you, this just blows me away-----

"Our side is supposed to be better than that.

I thought, perhaps foolishly that this site was populated by the seraphim order of angels of our better nature, that our side knows better, is better, that our side respects life and even death better than that.

I was wrong."

You're catagorizing every single person who ever stepped foot into the world of DU.. And I have no idea what photo you're even talking about! :shrug:

One photo... one person's post... and you find fault in "our side"?? :wow: :wow: :wow:

however, may I ask you, did you ditch DU when the pictures from the south Asian tsunami were posted here? These were people too... with families, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers. I'm not, seriously. trying to be "politically correct". But, because it's American citizens being eaten by dogs, that's what makes DU unacceptable? Maybe I'm missing something here. In death, there is no honour.
"I thought, perhaps foolishly that this site was populated by the seraphim order of angels of our better nature, that our side knows better, is better, that our side respects life and even death better than that."
Our side does respect life... and death. I saw no outrage from you with regards to the tsunami victims being shown here. Just sayin'

How about a thread that makes a joke out of running over people who have 'W' stickers on their cars so they can feel like the dead in NO?
I actually posted a picture of one of the dead in NO, thankfully covered up, but was hoping that the people having a good joke in the thread would finally see how sick it was. Nah. They went right past it, laughing away.

We ARE supposed to be better than that. I've seen a lot on this board lately to prove otherwise.

And to anyone who says that if I don't like it I can leave, remember the immortal words of Cheney.

I can kinda understand the black humor behind running over the W sticker people. It is not as if, like Pat Robertson with Chavez, anybody was proposing running over the W sticker people in all seriousness. It was a sick joke. For people with sick senses of humor. Like me. I do get that not everybody has a sick sense of humor and that is OK. See, it seems to me that when you say "You should not show that image!! It is offensive!!" Or, "You should not make that joke!! It is offensive!!" you are presuming that your sense of outrage is shared by all. And it just isn't. It is OK for someone to be offended, (though personally I think that if you are offended it is exclusive to you and I am not sure what it has to do with anyone else)I am just not sure why their sense of offendedness is anybody else's responsibility.

I think I just repeated myself.

soul. But I disagree with living in a world in which we have everything sanitized. Changes doesn't occur otherwise ...if this had just been a hurricane and a few died, and we tried to save them as soon as possible, I think I might feel more restraint in hiding this from the public is necessary. But we didn't respond adequately in spite of thinking we'd all paid taxes to do so and it ain't gonna change unless people are jolted. You are responsible for bringing things within your life space that you have control over.

Peace and my your heart and mind heal.

:eyes: This is reality hon. I'm sorry you don't like it and I'm sorry there aren't enough fuzzy images of Bushie hugging some black people for you. Grow up.

My take on the whole thing was it showed the neglect and disrespect this administration is showing.


I have seen all sorts of stuff on DU that tick me off, but I don't pout and stomp off, nor would I announce my intention to do so. You make me wonder if you are really a troll.
Sorry to say this, but anyone who was THAT offended would not be so vocal in his/her intention to not stick around.

That photo was posted to shed light on what will no doubt be covered up by the * administration. It was shocking as hell, no doubt about it, but the person who posted it (and who rocks imo) posted it to show the result of the cruel and inhumane actions by the * administration. Your anger should be pointed squarely at them-THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE!!!!!!

You may choose to run from the truth and point fingers and blame DU and the brave person who posted that photo. However it won't change a thing.

If you want accountability...then...

The whole truth and nothing but MUST be shouted to the world!!!

I also understand pictures whether they are of dogs eating bodies on the streets of New Orleans or Fallujah. There are still too many people encased in an alternate lala land in this country and sometimes, seeing is believing. Maybe, with seeing, the madness can end soon.

after all, how else can we keep from troubling Barbara Bush's "beautiful mind".

Fact - the neo cons are trying to sanitize this American Holocaust.

If they get away with it, more lives are at stake.

This is not a little game, we have definitely reached the insanity described in Orwell's 1984.

The neo cons want this all to be touching stories of heros, pictures of american flags, and more or less a huge reality show/advertisement/photo op for the republicans.

This is the fight of our lives, and for our children and their children.

As horrible as these pictures are, this IS A HOLOCAUST, and
we need everyone to see that. The pictures are the only way to
turn this thing around.

so I have no right to say anything, but you are simply blaming the messanger.

We NEED to see those pictures. Ignoring a problem (or tragedy) doesn't make it go away.

I am disappointed that you would make such a decision. We need your input if for no other reason than it offers a perspective...to balance our collective perspective.

-P

This is an important post.

So get out!!

we can imagine, have seen some of it.

But putting the ugliest pictures on the net does not make them look more callous it makes us look more callous and insensitive.

This situation is already damaging to monkey- it is ours to lose.

This is about communication, and sometimes less is more, actors can over act, stories can be melodramtic, and we can over play our hand and look disrepectful to the dead.

This was mentioned on national TV today and it came off as some ghoulish web site that was disrespectful and playing politcs too hard.

where Rush took a sarcastic post out of context and misconstrued it on his radio program. Which is what he does for a living...misconstruing, I mean. So are you saying that we should vet all posts for mass public consumption before we hit 'post message'?? Just in case some Repuke decides to cruise through here and completely twist something that is being said? Gee, that is sure going to water things down around here.

As for the picture in the thread, all of this hoopla is stupid. The thread was titled to warn people about its content and graphic nature. Opening it and becoming shocked and offended is the same thing as purchasing an X-rated pay-per-view movie entitled "Sexy McHooters" and being shocked and offended that you actually see women's breasts on the screen.

And since it is really late and I have turned into a pumpkin, I have to say that all that 'seraphim of angels' shit was just weird as hell. This is a frigging political message board, for chrissakes.

All of American needs to see the horror of this and Iraq. There is no sugar coating this. Not showing the horror will only allow more horror.

I have seen/smelled it all, too.

These photos are NECESSARY for people to understand and REMEMBER what happened in NOLA.

Yes we are all different. But why open something that has a warning? I'm just sorry that some would leave DU for opening a link that had a warning on it. Just my .2.
Peace

Aren't we an agreeable lot here in the wee hours??

I agree on this issue and find no value at all to pictures that only disturb, rather than illuminating an outrageous problem, or on the other hand, showing some compassion to tragedy. If it only shocks and makes you feel horror, then what are you repulsed by? Not Bush. As mentioned, this was a family member--imagine everybody gawking at a "violence-porn" picture of whatever kind, and you get a look at it, and it is a member of your family, on the internet. This was like the disgusting thing that happened to the family of the kidnapped hostage in Iraq, beheaded on the website, and the family found out. I never open any thread that has "Graphic" or "Explicit Violence" or anything else on it; I don't need it. It gets depressing, and makes you fear the world. For all those who "believe" that it all should be shown, and that it is censorship not to show it, then why don't you post videos of babies and infants getting raped? You could add sound, and we could hear them cry. This reminds me of a Court TV case a couple of years ago, of an adult male who raped and murdered a little girl. This bastard had thousands of computer disk images, still pictures and movies, of rape, torture, etc. Thank God, they did not show any of it, but Nancy Grace and the correspondent talked about what was on one that was played for the jury. They only described it; no pictures, no sound (they had both seen and heard the movie). A little girl, about 7 years of age, in a low-lit room with a group of adult males, the girl crying, with fear and pain, being raped by one of them, visible on camera, the adult males in the room could be heard moaning, masturbating. The girl was later murdered. I sat there, and cried--from a description only. I felt that doomed, violated little victim, and wanted to kill these sickening bastards--horror. If they had played the video, I would've hated Court TV, and been so shattered by it all, that I would have been able to think of no one's pain but my own.

You might recall, kodi, the first exchange we ever had, it was a "fight" about the tenets of Christianity (as we both are) and the necessity, or not, of the Nicene Creed, and how to be thought of. It was still new to me on this site, not very pleasant, and I even thought of not posting anymore. As time went on, I read others of your posts, and realized I liked a lot of it, and agreed with a lot. You were not the "abuser" I had come to worry about being "attacked" by. Later, I even learned, kind of, to watch myself and my anger over some things, and how to recognize a good person--whether I agreed or not--as opposed to a real abuser, who wants to taunt. I have learned to like you and enjoy reading your posts since that first meet-up on the thread months ago. I am glad I did not leave then, but stuck it out, and hope you will, too.

Sanitizing tragedy by not showing the ugly through images makes indifference all to easy. There's a reason Bush wants to keep the press out of NO, keep pics of the dead and in Iraq from being shown.

The image of the S Vietnamese colonel murdering a supposed Viet Cong sympathizer in the late 60s. That was graphic. I hope everybody knows what I am referring to. There were people at the time saying it was horrible to show. But it crystallized the immorality of the Vietnam War and S Vietnamese government in a way that 100,000 words could not.

EDIT spelling

and this would be one of them--i hope i don't see a photo such as this.

but, as others have said--this is a political website--and because of that i believe exposing or informing on the attrocities of this government are important and extremely relevent.

i have been in an absolute funk for nearly two weeks now--i can't seem to shake it, my brain keeps screaming: HOW IS THIS HAPPENING IN AMERICA??? my concentration is for shit lately, and i cry several times a day. (and i'm one of those who say: i never cry)

it is a horribly sensative & devestating time for a lot of us. and very emotional--there's a lot of sorrow, a lot of anguish & anger.

the cynical side of me thinks: you'll be back.

but if you are, in fact, gone you probably won't even be reading this post of mine. either way, it's too bad you feel the need to punish people who apparently care about you (by disappearing) because of the action of one person which was based on the inactions of a republican government.

(sorry to anyone reading this--the spellcheck didn't work and it's too late for me to think straight)

had a nasty encounter with you a while ago. You were pretty darned rude as a matter of fact.

and it certainly is your choice, but I would urge you to reconsider. While the photo is likely very horrific (I haven't seen it yet), REALITY has been horrific these last several years.

NO has been Bush's domestic killing fields, while Baghdad was hs foreign one. Frequently photos are posted that show the graphic reality of Iraq. Most do not post it because they like to see such death or because they don't show the victim compassion or have some sick violence fetish. It is often the exact opposite. By showing these photos of reality, it is hoped that atleast one more person will be convinced of the horrible injustices committed.

GOODBYE

...one shouldn't leave because of it.

Fairly soon we'll live in a world where citizens won't be allowed to publish anything that the Bush government doesn't approve. It's right around the corner. Protect freedom of speech while you can.

from what you've described, that picture tells a story. Believe it or not there are many people not into gratuitous gotcha postings. That speaks to me of the horror and the aftermath and also the starving animals that have yet to be saved.

We need to see this for a visual punch in the face to bring us out of malaise perpetrated by BushCo with their incessant hum of spin.

No, that picture would piss me off. But I'd be pissed off at those who created the scenario, not the messenger.

but, kodi, I cannot believe that one picture by a poster (and I don't know who it is) has THIS much control of your emotions. Do you even know this person? I highly doubt it. Personally, I think it's ridiculous. It is upsetting to see pictures like the one you describe. Why not just stop posting instead of coming on here and essentially attacking the person who posted the picture? Rather, you have to make a grand exit (Oh, everyone, I am so above posting pictures of dead people), which, to me, does not speak well of your character. I haven't been here that long, but I certainly won't miss a poster like you.

I remember the news in 1965,66,67,68 and 69. Every night at 6pm turn on your TV and you saw how the american army was winning the hearts and minds of the people of veitnam. We saw the dead and burned, who can ever forget the pics of the naked little girl running down a road her body burned by napalm? WE saw and we acted on what we saw. Is it like that today? Nope we have a clean war where unless we are there we haven't a clue about anything.We relie on what the military and the goverment controled press tell us. Abugrabass would have never come to light if it wasn't for the internet. The main news never even let americans know there was a prison in Iraq.

Iraq = no pictures of caskets coming home to U.S.

Neocons understand public perception and that's why they must keep it controlled.

Welcome, mrcheerful!

"clicked on thread and saw disturbing picture."

Shocking. No wonder the R's can so successfully label us as whiners.

Julie

Anyone who has owned or maintained a forum will tell you the ones who stomp their feet and claim "I'll never be back" are ALWAYS the ones who later return. Might be six months,might be a year but they always come back.Its the ones who just disappear without a word or goodbyes that you never hear from again.

Who cares? If your so easily upset by a picture that you DIDN'T need to see then how are you with the CHIMP IN OFFICE that caused this disaster? Channel your frustrations toward Bush,not some one of a kind picture on DU.

BTW,We ALL know you've come back at least a couple of times and read these replies. I'm sure your dying to reply to a few but you can't--you've left for good,or so you say....

Yea, all them others were someone else's children when * extinguished their lives too. Like do you think this is some kind of stupid game you get to edit at your choosing?

You can carry on with battle now or wait to when they enter your living room, it's your choice x(

from politics.

PLEASE READ THE WHOLE MSG - IT'S A PARODY

The other day, among the millions of messages posted by the tens of thousands of members here I saw one single message which has made me give up my support for your cause against Adolph Hitler.

Even though I believe the *spirit* of your cause of stopping the mass slaughter of millions of people on a wholesale basis, I must stop working for your cause because someone actually posted a single piece of evidence of this happening and I found it disturbing.

While I continue to hope that someday the Allies will win against the Axis, I'd rather have Hitler stay in power and kill countless more millions in death camps than be offended by seeing a single picture of a dead person which may otherwise be considered "propaganda", even though it's entirely factual and in context, and I was warned of the graphic nature.

The above was a sarcastic parody, but I hope you get the idea.

My further comments below:

>The value of his life deserved better even in death than posting a photo of his corpse on Democraticunderground.com with dogs tearing at his flesh.

What about the REALITY - that's doesn't bother you???? No, go ahead and LET IT CONTINUE TO HAPPEN AGAIN AND AGAIN, at least you won't see pictures of it in the MSM to worry your poor widdle head...

>Our side is supposed to be better than that.

We ARE - THEIR side IS DOING THAT STUFF. They **manufacture** those pictures and other REAL propaganda and use them to trick us into wars killing tens of thousands. If you don't see the difference maybe you really DON'T belong here...

Most of us have never experienced the horrors you speak of. We need your input and your conscience now. If we're over the line, say so, loud and clear. Some of us are listening.

grow the fuck up and realize people have to see this shit to break through the log jam bushco created.

Lots of shit offends me here every day. It comes as part of a free exchange of ideas. You either learn from it, ignore it, or as apparently this poster has chosen to do, have a temper tantrum. Whatever.

BTW, :hi:

There's no excuse for it

that would make you want to quit?

I could understand you quitting if this was the final straw that made you wanna quit DU, after having a combination of things bother you about the site, but if it was only this one thing, well maybe you could've tried correcting it by approaching the poster about it or asking the administrators about it or something. For all I know, maybe you did.

There are so many posts here that something like this is bound to happen. If it became the norm, then maybe that would be reason to say bye bye.

Anderson Cooper reported a dead victim was being eaten by rats?

This is the internet and unfortunately you can get pictures online that you would never imagine. At a place like the DU, you have the option of "Alert" to tell the managers not to show something.

I myself never - or hardly ever - go for things warned as "graphic". Except for genocide when I feel responsible to bear witness, I don't go there.

No doubt your previous first responder experience highlights looking at such a picture. I have PTSD and even if you only have a mild case, you already know to avoid certain things.

Don't blame us because the story is still being told. What you are seeing took place in America. What you are seeing took place because Bush stood down and "didn't solve problems" when he should have. He didn't want FEMA to be efficient. Surely seeing the alive & vulnerable suffering was worse. Surely most of your outrage should be found there. I suggest you go looking for it. Your outrage is misplaced.

NT!

One thread out of 80,000 pisses you off and you leave? Wow.

I think I'll give my cat away....after all, she puked on the floor once!

it clearly had a warning of graphic on it.

And you chose to open a photo that warned you of the graphic content.

that is why it is important.

Sweeping the circumstances of that persons's death under the rug only allows the injustice to continue.

It was the picture of the naked girl in Vietnam running from Napalm that ended that war.

I'm sorry you've burned out and lost your mental strength.

Politics is what we do just short of killing and maiming each other. You can't have politics without reference to inhumanity.

Politics is all our immaturity and failure, all our falling short of humanity, being transacted. We engage in politics not because we find these things attractive but precisely because we know the price of not doing so.

You've seen a few corpses and and few disasters that hurt you. I come from the world of Bergen-Belsen and carpet bombed cities, people guillotined and lined up against the wall and shot, tens of thousands poisoned until they coughed up their lungs in bloody bits by dinitrotoluene fumes in bomb-filling factories and millions poisoned- dying in spasms and retching and involuntary shitting while naked among hundreds of strangers- by cyanide gas in airtight locked basement rooms. People asphyxiated and their bodies vacuum evacuated and disintegrated to oxides in bunkers in superheated firestorms, whose numbers had to be estimated from the amount of bone dust that was found. People afire from sprays of white phosphorous in incendiary bombs, which burned through flesh.

And you figure you've done enough and it's time to despair of civilization, and you have sufficient reason to give up the fight for it.

be exposed to the anguish of the present--it is they only way to convey the immediacy of the problem we are facing now. New warriors for sanity and peace can come from these stark images.

Good Fortune and Well Being to you

Opi

I've seen parades where people carried huge pictures of fetuses, some that had died during birth, some that had been aborted. I assume that these pictures were NOT taken by anyone who had just lost a child or had an abortion, but an unscrupulous and callous person who had no regards for the dignity of life. Although I believe abortion is an awful thing, I have no right to interfere in the lives of those who, most likely reluctantly, chose to have one. Instead of celebrating and supporting the lives of all those who live in this country, they use mangled corpses as a means to further their rhetoric. Are we using the same tactic? I don't think so. When you have comments from "notables" like Barbara Bush about the have nots doing just spiffy in their Houston digs compared to what their true class status is, there is nothing but showing the true indignity to less moneyed Americans that has occurred. Maybe showing the actual results of their callous policies and attitudes about human beings will give them a visceral knock upside the head. This is the America they created. At least they should be given the opportunity to feel shame. Those that don't will continue to call themselves Republicans. Those who pitch in and help just because fellow human beings need their help have the right to call themselves Americans.

"I did this to burn in my mind an image of that person so I would never forget him, so even though that person was dead, still he would live on if nowhere else but my own memory. I owe the dead that much at least. To remember them."

You didn't do this to gawk at the picture, but for your own reasons, which you stated above. Why would you assume that other DUers who looked at the picture had baser motives than that?

My assumption is that the person who posted the picture did so to remind people of the damage that this Administration has done to our country. Reminders like that help to motivate us to make changes that will rid us of the type of government that we now have.

I don't see how anything we do that attempts to expose this Administration for what it is can be considered a "political gotcha game". It may be political - this is a political forum after all. And we certainly do want to get them out of here. But a game?

I'm sick and tired of hearing Republicans whining about this being a "blame game". That's their most recent robotic mantra. Call it a "blame game" long enough and maybe people will see it as a game. Well, it's not a game at all. It's called demanding that our government be accountable for their misdeeds. Without the ability to do that we don't have a democracy.

And one more thing. If I died for whatever reason, and my body was grossly deformed, and if my government was responsible for that, and if my government was an evil and irresponsible government, responsible for the destruction of tens of thousands of innocent lives, and if showing my picture would help in any way to hold them accountable for their actions, I would want that to be done.

To be more accuate, my response was mixed with laughter, rolling eyes, and then at the very end, some mild nausea. The kind of nausea that would come from watching a movie starring Reese Witherspoon or Cameron Diaz. Or the kind of vomit that would come from listening to a song by Tim McGraw or Jennifer Lopez. Reading your post was like watching Paris Hilton and Jessica Simpson talk about the value of education.

Your post was raw chicken.

Your post was like a Kathie Lee Gifford concert-absolutely nothing good could come from it.

Your post was arrogant. Who cares if you never post on DU again?

If you become so attached to an internet messageboard, that you must announce your departure, then I can easily assume that A. You don't get laid. and B. You're fishing for attention.

Rectify this error; look in the mirror. Yell stupid 10 times. Repeat for one week.

Then return to DU. And never post this silly nonsense again.

had that experience. I personally feel that I would want everyone to see me eaten by dogs if I was let down so bad by my government. I personally know republicans that simply do not get IT unless they see it. Why do you think the admin does not want these pics to be seen? For that reason. Also, maybe I have a different way of thinking. Our bodies are merely a shell. Our souls live on.