We always take the high road & get kicked in the ass for our efforts

We took the high road when we let bygones be bygones after Gore had the election stolen from him in 2000.

We took the high road when Democrats did their best to unite behind this "president" after 9/11.

We took the high road when we also did our best to wave flags and show unity when Bush attacked that "terrible" threat to us, Iraq.

We took the high road when we were good little sports after the the 2004 election, the most divisive hate-filled election in history, and we joined in with the Repukes in calling for everyone to heal the divide between the parties.

Well I'm sick of getting kicked square in the ass for sake of being the good guys. Enough with this 'high-road-worried-about-my-political-future' bullshit. It's time we did some ass-kicking of our own & stopped worrying about what the political ramifications might be.

The high road needs to be replaced with high TIME. It's high time that our Democratic Congressmen threw caution to the wind. This high road we've been traveling on sucks and is getting us nowhere.

"the political ramifications" *could* be WINNING for a change.

I agree, the world is looking pretty damn dismal from up here on the high road. Feels almost like a rooftop in New Orleans!

our only other choice....losing again by remaining silent.

Our leaders need to take the gamble.

it is paying off. That old saying is true... give folks enough rope and they will hang themselves. It is happening. They are making the noose right now and slipping it over their necks. All we have to do is sit back and watch the inevitable.

This country is angry.

Been there, done that. Look at the results.

Sure the country is angry, but give Karl Rove an extra tenth of a second in time, and he'll slip right out of that noose you're talking about. We fail to learn that sorry lesson time and time again.

because at this point, the implication is that XXThousand people just sacrificed their lives to the namby-pamby politics of "taking the high road".

Yeah, sit back and watch the inevitable....corpses rotting on the streets of NOLA.

Great.

And I still don't see any nooses around the necks of the perpetrators.

I think I sit back because that's about all I CAN do anymore. If you have the energy to hit the streets, do it.

But I DO see the nooses. I really do. Invisible to most. But maybe you young folks are going to have to help them materialize a bit faster.

you may be making assumptions about age differences between us.

I'm not necessarily talking about having the energy to hit the streets (cause I sure don't have it anymore, did the "legalize it" thing in the 70s, Nuclear Free Zones in the 80s, marched my heels off at protests against US invasion of Gulf, as well as various other issues while living in Germany in the 90s)

I'm talking about democratic politicians, like the ones who didn't even have the balls to contest the results of the 2000 election (only to concede, four years later , that they *should* have.

Well, why the fuck didn't you?

And what was all the BS about "Count every vote" in 2004.

The people of this country, that is, the MAJORITY, has made it loud and clear to democratic leadership that we want and need them to be out there fighting like there's no tomorrow--because if they DON'T there will be no tomorrow.

Wtf did they let the Bolton nomination go through?

Where were they when this gd horsetrader was getting appointed to FEMA?

The "kicking donkey" is really a joke. It should be a donkey sitting on its stubborn, lazy ass, refusing to be moved.

it does sound like you and I are of similar age. And I couldn't agree more with you that the Democrats have just given up. I didn't realize you were talking working within the existing system. I thought we were talking more jazzed up response!

Because I can't be at the revolution but I can make sandwiches and stuff.

to hell with making sandwiches, too, I'm working on the FUTURE GENERATIONS (about 5 years ago, when I started working with 6th graders, I said: wow, I finally found my peer group! and adopted a policy: I WILL NOT WORK WITH ANYONE OVER THE AGE OF FOURTEEN .

I'm a teacher, and I see my primary responsibility in undoing the bullshit propaganda that's been pumped into every generation since the Reagan era began.

Man I can't wait to see what happens when "my" 3-yr olds "grow up" , my 6 yr olds, my 6th graders, and, most recently my college freshman

(I told the froshes they can make up for unexcused absences by writing reports on that day's "Daily Show"--in fact, I'm considering making Daily Show an assignment!)

after many years debate and soul-searching, I decided to become the most subversive motherfucking little schoolmarm the world has ever seen!

(actually, I think that already started in the 80s, when they had me teaching english composition classes as an undergrad! It's just that now it's official--I had to laugh very loudly when I recently got my first email addressed to "Prof. Dr."!)

Har har. Who'da thunk it?

(I went BACK to school to get my PhD, after a good ten years of being a radical, outside-the-system hell-raiser).

But sandwiches are important too, granny. Do not ever forget that!

"I touch the future, I teach" is really right on target. It is amazing how you can influence young minds without actually imparting facts. I get there by asking, asking, asking. I am always asking questions and I rarely give answers.

I think my kids get all their news from the Daily Show and that's not necessarily a bad thing!

I teach studio art, so I have a lot of opportunity to just talk with kids and listen to them. It is a rare privilege. I am now teaching children of my first students and I'm pretty proud of the results. They come back to me, write to me, and they tell me they are now asking their own questions.

I admire your PhD. I promised myself the day I graduated that I'd never go back to that side of the desk. For the most part, I have not.

One last thought: I think the BS that was pumped into me in grade school exceeds what is going on now. I am part of the Dick/Jane and Leave it to Beaver generation. The first teacher who ever reached me with questions had me read "A Nation of Sheep." And that opened up another world for me.

true (I gotta get me one).

Sounds like you're doing a helluva job--getting questions is like pulling teeth.

And I think you're right: the BS level has been pumped up so much to the max, it's why we really need to be out there countering it....

oh, and the phd, god, it's not all it's cracked up to be, it really isn't

(I used to call it the "preparation H degree--best guarantee for shrinking your intellectual hemorrhoids! -- I'm just glad I got out of there with my cranial sphincter valves intact--at least I *hope* so).

But, for someone who really came up from the welfare class, *below* the welfare class--believe me, in spirit, in heart, I was *there* in those crowds in NOLA, I was freaking out about it already *days* before the storm hit, saying to myself: how the hell those people gonna get outta there now, end of the month, no car, no money, no nothing?--yeah, it's sort of a big deal. I'm the first in five generations of my family to have graduated from HIGH SCHOOL (oh wait, I lie, I believe my sister got a GED), much less college...if my mother had been alive, she'd have said "You got a what? A PHD? Is that curable?"

And the reason I just gave you that long cry-me-river-of-poverty-spiel is that: without my teachers, without excellent, superb teachers who taught me to question every fucking thing right down to the ifs ands and buts about it (especially that)...none of this would have been possible. Teachers matter. Teachers make a difference, especially for kids coming up from the welfare class--"below ground zero" as I heard one of the guys in NOLA say! --I know that, and it is why I teach.

The fun part about it, I suppose, is that you can always shut up a rethug by saying: hey, it's Dr. So-and-So to you!

So anyway, hats off to you, Teach...(gee, maybe you should change your screenname to TallahasseeTeach, huh?)

I admire yer spunk, TG.
I'm in the same boat.
My fightin' days are over.
Except verbally and in writing.
And I can still fire up the grill and help feed the multitudes at the barricades.

I'm about 3 hours east of you in Foley, AL.
Welcome to DU.
:hi:

No more "swiftboats"!

If we don't attack, and attack repeatedly NOW, we will lose again!

But thanks for just joining up to tell "us" what to do!

And what's with all this "we" crap? - CUT IT OUT - "WE" see thru "YOU".

Nice try - no sale!

You are a passionate person.

I think maybe my definition of "high road" might differ from yours? To me, taking the high road is staying honest, speaking the truth, and not lowering yourself to the low road, e.g. lying, cheating, etc.

There's nothing wrong with attacking and attacking repeatedly if you speak the truth. IMHO, of course. Your take on that might vary.

My original point about the noose tightening comes from long experience of watching my enemies hang themselves.

You Swiftboat analogy is an interesting one. I don't think that was taking the high road. Not dealing with that attack was jumping off the road all together and into the bushes.

I'm not telling you what to do. I thought the point of a forum was to discuss one's opinions. That is mine. Pardon my use of "we." Perhaps I assumed too much. I was under the impression that this was a forum for Democrats. Given my more than forty years of voting history and financial support, I qualify. Is there something I'm missing?

If you can see through me, do tell me more because I haven't figured myself out yet. I'm definitely a work in progress.

Very admirable, I must say!

as "taking the high road". To me taking the high road means to not engage in the same dishonest tactics as the other side for the sake of getting even. Telling the truth and calling liars out when they lie should always be done.

we must stop.

We tell them they can grow up to be President and every vote counts and our military is watching out for our defense and we elect representatives to lead us. We fill them with lies.

We can't take the high road - it's all a pack of lies. The theft, delusion, destruction, the betrayals of agreements, the pomposity and hypocrisy is unbearable.

We must act for our kids. It means waking every one we know and not allowing our takeover.

We must do it through education and action starting with our vote - as our vote is still the only legal way to get them out. If you or anyone else allows Republican companies to make the machines, write the software, hire the technicians, then - allow Republican corporations to hire the exit pollsters and manipulate the results then call the vote, it means you and other others need a doctor. It is bizarre that educated and honest people allow it. Sitting back means that more county officials buy their machines and the right wing propaganda networks keep their position of being entirely in control.

Just sit back! That's the motto of most of our leaders. It's madness. It is the same as German Christians looking away when we look away at all the minorities and underprivileged in addition to the poor who are now the target similarly to the Jews. (Or use any massacre in history).

was inartful. You are right to call me on it.

My point is that when folks screw up this magnificently, they have done most of your work for you.

In my opinion we now have an electorate who will be bringing an entirely different viewpoint to the booth.

And I agree with you all the way about the voting machines. As I said on another thread, I don't trust online betting and I don't trust voting machines without receipts and paper trails.

We sit bqck and relax, we're gonna get our butts kicked again! Remember, 3 1/2 years left for this dick and his henchmen to come up with some miracle to bring the sheeple back into the fold. Jeeze, this friggin excuse for a man has had enough rope to hang him and hundreds of his cronies -- and nothing has happened. . Sure hope your right but I wouldn't want to hang by the balls until pres. prick is pronounced dead from strangulation.

Guess what? It doesn't work. You can't count on the sheeple to vote against Republicans just because you've given them rope to show their incompetence. You need to be out front and center attacking and pointing out the flaws.

Take your statement, and transpose it back in time -- didn't we give them tons of rope to hang themselves with before 2004? Weren't there tons of incompetent idiocies that should have swung things our way? Staying mum on the high road doesn't win votes.

And that's what we need to do -- WIN! -- not wait and hope for the other guys to lose. It's about proving how fucked up the other side is, and presenting our own better alternative -- not sitting by and trying to win by default, while the Republican corporate media machine spins, spins, spins into ever greater control.

Letting them hang themselves when then THEY run the country is a poor strategy. They won't be solely responsible for repaying an $8t debt. They won't be solely responsible for fighting the terrorism that their war on terror has caused. They won't be solely responsible for dealing with a health care system that suffers double digit inflation. They won't be solely responsible for dealing with an economy in which the average wage is actually declining. They won't be solely responsible for cleaning up the mess that their inept FEMA has created.

It's high time indeed. In addition to cultivating the grass roots, we need to cultivate organizations even scummier than the swift boat assholes.

I didn't do my best to wave the flag when we invaded Iraq. Maybe you mean Democratic politicians, but not even all of them did. (Actually, my Barbara Lee didn't even vote to invade Afghanistan.)

Your point is valid, though. However, there's an even bigger problem, imho. The fact is that they LIE. They look at the obvious truth and say exactly the opposite. The fact that the media (and us, too, I guess) let them get away with it gives them tremendous power.

I'm not willing to lie, though, so I don't know what to do about it except scream every time they lie.

Was it Mark Twain who said, "A lie gets half-way around the world before the truth catches up with it"?

It's not a lie to say Bush a liar. It's not a lie to say he and his cronies are criminal at doing so.

No, we don't have to lie. We have to shout the truth and get tough.

Until now, we haven't had the same bullhorn they've had. Maybe now that the MSM are waking up (fingers crossed) and we have AAR and Media Matters we can change that. But our outlets have to get a lot bigger to fight the lies coming out of Faux.

however, they shouldn't be surprised when they find the bridge out and they have to get their little white gloves dirty anyway.

THAT was carter's biggest mistake. well, the entire democratic party.

that should have been the END of the republican party. a new conservative party would have formed in its place after a decade or so of solid democratic control. that party would have had to EARN its power by creating an actual base of support. instead, they learned they can pretty much get away with anything, thanks to the pardon and thanks to democrats who think not delivering a knockout punch is the high road.

what a different place we'd be in today.

We still lack the knock-out punch, don't we.

The sad thing is that this current clown is all set to go down for the count, yet our Democratic leaders are simply going to let him off the hook....again. And oh will we pay the price for our silence...again.

being played for suckers. We've crossed the line.

is that I am really not that nice. Fuck the high road. Do what it takes to win, because losing at this point is intolerable.

I think we need to take a few pages from Rove's playbook and kick those bastards in the nuts every time they look like they are gaining traction. I am not above using a disaster to go after Bush and if publishing horrific photos and shoving people's faces in them until they realize what it means for this piece of shit to be President, then that's what I will do.

But then I get people telling me that would lower us to their level. But guess what, folks?? Their level is WINNING and ruining a country I happen to have enjoyed living in until recently.

It's not the high road- it's the stupid road.

are both part of the long sage of the BUSH WH & its lies. They are important pieces in how Bush & his jerks are being seen for who they really are.

Gannon proved without a doubt that the WH was interested in controlling all parts of the press & did so by getting him to lob softball questions and interrupt the flow of the other WH journalists. The DSM proves that some knew that there was not enough evidence of WMD to start with. Both very key elements. Both things in the consciousness of the journalists, etc.

We've realized again and again how we are lied to. Some are just waking up. Those two you mention are seemingly small but important things in the waking up of AMerica.

Or the lady behind me at the bank.

Or thay guy at work.

It was ignored by everyone except DU & some blogs.

the details. But come election time they perk up and listen to the press. The press knows about G & DSM. They know more now than two years ago.. It wasn't any less obvious but I suppose you need to follow a pattern through a few times before it sinks in.

Courage! Lots of people don't give a rat's ass about politics. Following politics in the off season - like you and I so - is likely ten times less popular than religion.

Whether they follow politics that close or not.

The press will never talk about those things again- it is "old news."

The time to make either the DSM or Gannon, for instance, into a house-hold name scandal was when it first came out- but the DEMs ignored those chances.

Mabye they will learn a lesson from all this BS that comes out of the hurricane in time to keep their jobs for '06.

Monika was hard to avoid. And "faked medals" came out during the election cycle. So - like I said ..don't expect them to pay any heed at all the what is going on until it is packaged as a product for them to buy come election time. Them not knowing details is normal.

And that is MY point- they were not afraid to go on TV everynight and talk about it.

I hope Democrats learn from all of this someday.

I agree with you there. And much of this is political because Rove runs the campaign every single day. I agree with that.

My local paper had an opinion piece - that was not well written- but which quoted an email from a county Republican offical that sounded like it would be at home on FR. (Calling Kerry Lurch, making fun of Kerry's mentions of having fought in Vietnam, and saying we have to lock all the women up (nice sexist comment)) Then speaking of the lack of civility and the absurdity of the Republicans STATED OPINION that Democratic candidates or leaders shouldn't come to such a Republican stroghold.

I think there is a huge difference between "Monica" and the lies about Kerry. "Monica" happened and it has hurt all Democrats; Kerry's service record and medals were genuine, whether Rove wanted them to be or not - and all but the fringe RW know this. At this point, those lies tarnish the Republican leaders, not the Democratic party as a whole, nor even Kerry as a person. I hope that W's amorality and ineptitude dog the Republicans for as long as Clinton's thoughtless, amoral relationship with Monica has dogged the Democrats.

if the Democrats decide to go after Bush with the same abandon, tenacity, ferociousness, and relentlessness that Republicans went after Clinton with.

... not agree more.

See, here's the problem.

During the Kerry campaign, doubts began to surface regarding Mary Beth Cahill's ability to lead.

SO...James Carville was brought in, and people thought he'd be tough and go nose-to-nose with Rove.

But that didn't happen.

Carville acted like a clown, especially on MSNBC when he was paired with Tucker Eskew. It was all a big laugh.

So I don't really give a rat's ass WHO does it...until we have someone step up to the plate and make it their MISSION IN LIFE TO TAKE DOWN KARL ROVE, as long as Rove is breathing, he's going to do what Karl Rove does.

And we've seen how well we've handled it up to this point.

way we get the country back from a cluster fuck of sociopaths & neocons & narcissists.

Adults act responsibly & with compassion.

DUers are always complaining that our leaders are too corporate - well what would be the point of us acting like the hypocrites & liars on the other side. The people who have been moved to write editorials & letters & discuss things this week due to the WH response to NO - they were all adults looking at the situation and becoming furious.

The GOP has everything to gain if we start with their tricks and games and debase ourselves. Why? Because they are beginning to loose. Acting like a selfish asshole only really ever pays off to a selfish asshole. The real adults who followed Bush..are beginning to realize there is nothing real or rewarding in hate and purposeful incompetence. Why would we change everything we are just because they are sick in the GOP>


Fight? Yes we fight. But we fight as adults because that is who we are. We do not attack the families of people. We do not put up a wall of lies. We punch through to the truth and we talk openly about their behavior and their cabals and their lies and their hypocrisy. And that is why BUSH is currently at 40% in the polls. Because even those people who got big tax cuts... are not comfortable. Bush delusional bubble is frightening to more and more.

Stay the course. We are making inroads. People are waking up. People are learning the patterns of deceptions.

for saying what I have been trying to say and saying it more eloquently.

In my definition, what you are advocating IS taking the high road. I guess the problem starts when we try to define a cliche' that means many things to many people.

We "lost" the last election by a very narrow margin. I choose to believe we lost it because good hearted, intelligent folks who just hadn't had their consciousness raised yet. Eyes are opening all over this country.

Wow, with all due respect, you and Grannie have got to be kidding me! Look what "staying the course" has gotten us. It's gotten us to the brink of EXTINCTION as a party!!!

We cannot "stay the course" for another minute. Staying the course is the same thing as playing Mr Nice Guy, looking the other way, and hoping things will work out all warm and fuzzy. Well we're not going anywhere if we continue to stay the course....not with the people we're up against. Screw staying the course! Get those sails up! There's a wind a'blowing!!

BTW, no one is talking about going after people's families. That isn't necessary. We can take the offensive and kick their sorry asses without resorting to measures like that. But hey, if that's what it's going to take to beat these guys at their own game, then so be it!

sweat, toil & tears. Compassion & might. We fight with the truth.

We don't debase ourselves by playing childish games. That just let's them point at us and say we are the same. "it is all politics". We have nothing to learn from them. We do not ape their "talking points", their "let's use this", "let's spin this". Because that implies we are not dealing with the truth. It implies our information is as convenient as theirs.

We don't act like them. We don't fight like them. We fight like ourselves.

yours is a formula for losing the next election and the next one. The other side would LOVE it if we followed your advice.

If we continue to "fight like ourselves", which you prescribe us to do, then I hope you're happy to see Democrats lose forever. We have to change how we fight. Our Democratic leaders can't simply sit back like we have been and hope the truth comes out on its own. We also can't sit back and hope every single sheep in this country is smart enough to figure it out for themselves. The Republican spin machine has other ideas, in case you haven't noticed.

We don't necessarily have to do some of the things you're thinking we have to do like "debase ourselves by playing childish games" to win. What we have to do is do whatever the hell it takes to win, PERIOD. The stakes in this are a little bit high, wouldn't you say?

What we have to do is take a page out of Cindy Sheehan's book and expose Bush for being an outright liar and crook. What Cindy's talking about IS the truth, and goes beyond just being impeachable. She KNOWS how to put the gloves on and FIGHT, and she isn't "debasing" herself, nor is she "playing childish games".

To hell with the high road. From now on we better wake up and do WHATEVER IT TAKES.

to send their own children to Iraq.

Hillary would be singing an altogether different tune here if Chelsea were just another statistic, eh?

Part of the problem is that even the democratic leaders are not taking the brunt of the criminal regime's policies

if they were, you'd think there'd be a bit more bite to their bark

skin in the game.

supports got a long distance phone call from their adult hearts & souls saying "what the fuck is this - this is unconscionable".

You seem to be saying we should not be adults - but should revert to adolescence to match the Repukes stroke for stroke & game for game.

That is not a smart thing to do.

Of course the Repukes would want us to act as narcissistic & callously as they do. Then they have no competition.

Didn't you notice how much bullshit about "they chose not to evacuate" was floating around in the first few days of the aftermath? Didn't fly. That talking point didn't stick. Because it it slapped adults in the face with its lack of empathy.

good fight, we just need to speak the truth.

Simple questions like

WHAT NOBLE CAUSE ?

Simple facts like

DOWNING STREET MEMOS ?

or

NO WMD FOUND (but lots of less "massively destructive" weapons that are now killing US soldiers)

How about this one?

Mr Press Secretary, what do you think of this photograph of JEFF GANNON? Why was this man given press security clearance? What are we supposed to tell our children if they happen to google his name or something while doing research for some faith-based voucher school?

(hold up enlarged photo, yeah, you know the ones I'm talking about)

Ladies and Gentlemen, would you feel comfortable knowing that THIS is the man you're getting your news from?

Uh, let's see, how many more simple questions are there that should have been asked, over and over and over (you know kind of like repeating the freedom mantra 25 times in a speech)

How about loud and clear, and ad infinitim, why did the woman who questioned no-bid military contracts get fired from her job (I've forgotten the details there, fill in the blanks)?

what noble cause?
What wmd?
what's up with the DSM?
What are Mr. Brown's qualifications for this job?
Why does his resume not match up with his actual job history?

Why don't the exit polls match the vote count?
What was a Diebold technician doing to the machines prior to the recount?
etc.

That's not taking unfair stabs or playing dirty politics: it's about being absolutely RELENTLESS in repeating the truth and the important questions.

If you're asking the right questions, and doing it 24/7, then yeah, stay the course.

But it's like the Dems thing: oh, gee, I'll ask them once and if they don't give me an answer, well, MOVEON

Our democratic leaders could take a serious CUE from Cindy Sheehan--you don't have to be an asshole, you just have to be persistent as hell and never fear redundancy, redundancy, redundancy.

End of rant.

Oh how I wish our leaders would follow your advice.

There is nothing more frustrating than to see them waste perfect opportunities like DSM, no WMDs, etc, etc with token little hit-and-run slaps on the wrist...when they should be latching onto these opportunities like pitbull terriers and never letting go until justice is served. Our leaders simply have no clue how to fight to win. They fight to lose.

minds of people who pay attention. It results in understanding the pattern.

Why on earth would we want the Dems to harp on Guckert's gayness like some on the DU did? The point was made that it was 'controlled WH briefings" that Jeff's actions exposed. It woke up the press a little. And more and more wake up as these things pile up.

is turning. Why all of a sudden should Dems change strategy and ape the behaviour of the Repukes?

Why be like them?

Why?

I'm sick of rolling over and playing dead. I wanna win.

If we don't get offensive, Bush will get away with murder.......AGAIN, and they will win...........AGAIN.

Enough with this turn-the-other-cheek crap that always results in us getting smacked around like a redheaded stepchild.

Yeah, sure, let's stay soft and let Cindy do all the dirty work for us. While we're at it, let's hope Bush impeaches himself on his own free will. :eyes:

message actually got out. Same with Katrina response.

You must have noticed - Bush WH relies on painting it all as "politics" to shut people up.

I want to hear them saying shit that makes the medias eyes go wide. Okay, don't get me too excited, I'm an old guy.

it as "politics" the message gets out. And the truth. Cindy, now the situation with Katrina aftermath.

Why wouldn't we want the truth to get out?

I want us to get the truth out NOW by doing whatever it takes to GET it out, and you seem to want to LET the truth find its way to the people no matter HOW long it takes by doing NOTHING but watching people like Cindy or by hoping Bushco will self implode on its own. History should've taught you by now that with this current corrupt administration, the truth won't reach the people on its own anyime too soon unless we start taking the OFFENSE and stop letting them push us around. It's time to turn the tables and fight fire with fire, not turn the other cheek.

Agree to disagree. I've had it.

mirrors.