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Salon's War Room: "Rove's GJ return is 'stunning' and 'ominous' sign"

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009)

Hissyspit

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Thu Oct-06-05 05:57 PM
Original message

Salon's War Room: "Rove's GJ return is 'stunning' and 'ominous' sign"

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html?blog=/politics/war_room/2005/10/06/rove3/index.html

War Room

Rove's return to the grand jury: A "stunning" and "ominous" sign

So Karl Rove is returning to testify before the grand jury investigating the outing of Valerie Plame, and he's doing so without any guarantee that Patrick Fitzgerald won't prosecute him. How big of a development is this? "Stunning," a former federal prosecutor tells us. "There is no reason for Rove to make this appearance unless he and his counsel believe he is at serious risk of indictment. None."

It's always risky to go before a grand jury. You can't take your lawyer into the room with you, and you don't know what the grand jury knows or doesn't know. It's especially risky if you've already testified once -- or, in the case of Rove, three times -- before: The odds of introducing inconsistencies into your testimony increase each time you give it. That's why, the former prosecutor tells us, a defense lawyer would advise his client to make a return appearance before the grand jury only in extreme circumstances.

New York University law professor Stephen Gillers offers a similar assessment to the Associated Press. He calls Rove's return trip to the grand jury room an "ominous sign" that suggests Fitzgerald "has learned new information that is tightening the noose" around Rove's neck. "It shows Fitzgerald now, perhaps after Miller's testimony, suspects Rove may be in some way implicated in the revelation of Plame's identity or that Fitzgerald is investigating various people for obstruction of justice, false statements or perjury. That is the menu of risk for Rove."

It's possible, of course, that Rove is returning to the grand jury in the hope of saving someone other than himself. Conversely, it's also possible that he's testifying in the hope of implicating someone other than himself.

MORE

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longship

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Thu Oct-06-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message

1. Dupe.

I've already nominated the first one.

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Hissyspit

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #1

9. Link? I can't find it.

Edited on Thu Oct-06-05 06:48 PM by Hissyspit

I will nominate if I can.

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Jacobin

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Thu Oct-06-05 05:59 PM
Response to Original message

2. One word..........P A R D O N

He faces NO risk

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longship

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #2

4. Chimp will not pardon Rove if Chimp is also implicated.

That would trigger a Constitutional crisis and would certainly put a substantial number of people against him. I do not think that a president implicated in a crime can escape justice by use of the power of pardon. That would be a ridiculous loophole.

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trotsky

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #4

5. It's happened before.

Poppy Bush pardoned everyone associated with Iran-Contra, and that clearly involved him too.

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longship

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #5

10. Vive la difference!

Poppy Bush was not directly a target of the Iran-Contra affair. Although there was talk of his involvement as VEEP, Iran-amok was a Reagan administration scandal.

That would be different than the Rove/Plame affair. Chimpy is part of the administration being investigated. It would be a gross obstruction of justice for Chimpy to pardon his own cronies and could figure prominently in an article of impeachment. I don't think he would dare do such a thing. If he does attempt it, it would be a very grave matter, equivalent to Watergate's Saturday Night Massacre, or maybe even worse.

I certainly hope that the press would be as shocked about such an event as was NBC's John Chancellor in October, 1973. A noticably shaken Chancellor reported,

Good evening. The country tonight is in the midst of what may be the most serious Constitutional crisis in its history. The President has fired the special Watergate prosecutor, Archibald Cox. Because of the President's action, the attorney general has resigned. Elliott Richardson has quit, saying he cannot carry out Mr. Nixon's instructions. Richardson's deputy, William Ruckelshaus, has been fired.

Ruckelshaus refused, in a moment of Constitutional drama, to obey a presidential order to fire the special Watergate prosecutor. And half an hour after the special Watergate prosecutor had been fired, agents of the FBI, acting at the direction of the White House, sealed off the offices of the special prosecutor, the offices of the attorney general and the offices of the deputy attorney general.

All of this adds up to a totally unprecedented situation, a grave and profound crisis in which the President has set himself against his own attorney general and the Department of Justice.

Nothing like this has ever happened before.

More than 50,000 telegrams poured in on Capitol Hill today, so many, Western Union was swamped. Most of them demanded impeaching Mr. Nixon.

In my career as a correspondent, I never thought I'd be reporting these things.

Those of us who experienced that night remember Chancellor's words and demeanor to this day. It was a very scary moment in which to live.

I sincerely hope Chimpy isn't stupid enough to try something like that.

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Mountainman

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #10

11. I remember that night and I felt that it was a good sign that Nixon was

toast. It showed the country that Nixon was defenseless and was desperate to try anything.

I hope chimpy does the same.

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longship

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Thu Oct-06-05 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #11

12. I don't think this is a thing we'd want to happen.

The outcome of such a constitutional crisis might be something very, very grave; something that the country would regret.

I don't wish that on us at all. I would prefer that justice be served through normal, constitutional channels.

Please don't wish for this thing.

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emald

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Fri Oct-07-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #12

18. something very very grave...

why is what we have now, a stupid, vapid, self-centered asshole, not something very very grave? * is a very grave president, and his stealing the presidency via the scotus was very grave, where were your words then? Very grave indeed. Been that way for a long time.

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babsbunny

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Fri Oct-07-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #12

35. We already have a Constitutional Crisis!

We gotta get rid of this administration, at any cost if America is to survive!

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Virginian

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Fri Oct-07-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #11

23. I remember the bumper sticker inspired from that night...

Impeach the Cox Sacker.

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MannyGoldstein

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Fri Oct-07-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #10

17. Sad To Say

As noted by Nixon's counsel John Dean, Shrub's coterie makes the Nixonians look like amateurs. The Shrubbies are a very, very scary bunch, and I personally suspect that, if they're in trouble, they're capable of launchin' a nuke or two or pulling some other stunt as a diversion in order to grab absolute control of the country.

During the waning Nixon days, the military had an informal internal policy to not follow any nutty orders he might issue. Today's military was carefully weeded by the Shrubbies to get rid of those darned free-thinkers.

Boy, do I hope that I'm wrong here.

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MADem

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Fri Oct-07-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #10

32. But he WOULD HAVE BEEN a target had he not pardoned Cap the Knife

Weinberger, who said, loudly, with full threatening intent, that he would sing like a goddamn canary because he wasn't gonna take the fall. As a consequence, Poppy gave him a Christmas Eve present, to save his own sorry hide.

Memory refresher, here: http://www.fas.org/news/iran/1992/921224-260039.htm and http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/29/reviews/iran-pardon.html

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tinrobot

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Fri Oct-07-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #10

34. He's certainly stupider than Nixon

I sincerely hope Chimpy isn't stupid enough to try something like that.

I think the "C" student has already done a lot of stupid things, and he'll continue to do them...

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Thirtieschild

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Fri Oct-07-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #4

22. Earl Long did it O/T

and if Earl could do it why not *? When ol' Earl, then governor of Louisiana, got an insanity hearing, he immediately fired the whole bunch and declared himself sane. It was quite a story. My favorite part was the Governor of the Great State of Louisiana getting off an airplane in Fort Worth with a pillow case over his head and his hat on top of the pillow case. As I remember the story (my husband was bureau mgr of the NO UPI office and covered the story start to finish - we still have a clipping from the Times-Picayune of a press conference in Earl's motel room in Madeville with Earl using husband's pants cuff as an ashtray)it all started when, at a state dinner, Earl tapped on his wine glass for attention and proceded to urinate into the glass.

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YDogg

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Fri Oct-07-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #22

24. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

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renate

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Fri Oct-07-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #22

26. rats... now my keyboard has tea all over it

Earl peeing in a wine glass and using your husband's pants as an ashtray are good, but Earl getting off an airplane in Fort Worth with a pillow case over his head and his hat on top of the pillow case.... priceless.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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Imagevision

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Fri Oct-07-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #2

43. Rove can only cry wolf so many times! ----->

So New York's subway system is at threst is it -- Rove your so full of yourseld and bulshit it's getting boring fuckwad!!!!!!!!!!!

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Imagevision

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Fri Oct-07-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #2

44. Rove can only cry wolf so many times! ----->

So New York's subway system is at threat is it -- Rove your so full of yourseld and bulshit it's getting boring fuckwad!!!!!!!!!!!

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teryang

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message

3. I thought people were subpoenaed to a grand jury

This makes it sound like you go if and when you want to.

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Tennessee Gal

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #3

6. If you refuse, you can

be forced by subpoena.

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Steely_Dan

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message

7. Fox Spin...

As expected...FOX had a spin on all this.

They "implied" that the "invite" to Karl Rove was given a long time ago and that he is just now accepting the invitation.

Unbelievable.

-Paige

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AX10

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Thu Oct-06-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message

8. Nominated!

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longship

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Thu Oct-06-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message

13. Nominated. Clarifies the situation.

Edited on Thu Oct-06-05 07:08 PM by longship

A very good read.

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DaveColorado

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Fri Oct-07-05 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #13

14. I'm not a religious man,

but maybe there is a God.

:P

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arewenotdemo

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Fri Oct-07-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #14

30. Same one that told the Cheerleader-in-Chief to invade Iraq?

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sendero

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Fri Oct-07-05 07:32 AM
Response to Original message

15. Ominous?

Only to Rove and BushCo. For America, a good omen.

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connecticut yankee

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Fri Oct-07-05 07:37 AM
Response to Original message

16. How much you wanna bet

he gets off?

Sorry -- I've just become too cynical.

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Crux of the Biscuit

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Fri Oct-07-05 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #16

19. Very Good, or Very Baaaaad...

Perhaps I need a brush-up on my Government classes from high school, (man that was long ago), but if this does indeed turn out to be a Constitutional Crisis, (I've been hearing the distant thunder lately), then wouldn't that leave Dick and Rummy at the helm of the country? This latest diversionary bird flu fear tactic could play out as the perfect excuse for martial law in the country. We could be in for terrible passage in our history. I'm the most rational and sane person I know, but I've been engaging in some pretty ugly "what if" thinking as of late, and I lose sleep. I've been frequenting the shops of firearms dealers as of late, and my heart is very heavy. I pray this will all be over soon...

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Hissyspit

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Fri Oct-07-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #19

20. Welcome to DU! Six years ago, I would have said you were way too

Edited on Fri Oct-07-05 09:18 AM by Hissyspit

wary. But six years ago, I wouldn't have thought the federal government would let a major American city be devestated without a decent response from FEMA or let a major terrorist attack occur at the site where an attempt at one had already occurred!

So, to sum up: No, you are not alone in your thinking, exactly.

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Old Vet

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Fri Oct-07-05 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #20

21. Hes certainly not alone!

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Crux of the Biscuit

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Fri Oct-07-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #20

25. IT's really good to know that I'm not alone...

Thank you all...

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newyawker99

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Fri Oct-07-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #19

28. Hi Crux of the Biscuit!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

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savemefromdumbya

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Fri Oct-07-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message

27. more snippets

October 7, 2005 -- The mainstream media is reporting that Karl Rove has not received a target letter from Leakgate Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald. What the media is not reporting is that this story in being spun by Rove's attorney Robert Luskin. Although Luskin said Fitzgerald assured him that Rove received no target letter, Rove's last minute appearance before the Grand Jury (his fourth appearance) indicates there have been recent exchanges of correspondence between the Special Prosecutor and Rove's attorney. Informed sources continue to report that Rove remains a target of the criminal investigation. Since Luskin's job is to make his client look as good as possible, his comments on what the prosecutor has and has not done should be taken with a tiny grain of salt.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/

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calimary

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Fri Oct-07-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #27

29. Remember Scott Peterson, though. And HI, Crux of a Biscuit! Welcome!

Scott Peterson once said the police investigating his wife's disappearance told him he wasn't a target, either.

Luskin's job is to spin, and bob and weave, and cover for, and protect his client. What would you expect him to say? Whatever it is, he's there to put the least damaging spin on whatever it is, to try and manipulate public opinion. So YES ABSOLUTELY whatever he says should be taken with a grain of salt. Just remember: WHO STANDS TO BENEFIT? WHAT'S TO BE GAINED? AND FOR WHOM? AND AT WHOSE EXPENSE?

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beingthere

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Fri Oct-07-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #29

31. the suspense is worse than the election shit.

is it insane to hope?

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mbee

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Fri Oct-07-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #31

37. The wonderful difference from the election is they can't get

the touch screens to change the GJ indictments! HA,HA,HA!

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David Zephyr

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Fri Oct-07-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message

33. On the other hand, the flip side of this is more ominous...

Rove could be secretly given the opportunity to clarify his earlier statement which would be the wink that this in-house Justice Department prosecutor who works for Alberto Gonzales will give to Rove.

Folks, the cards in the judicial system are so stacked against anyone attempting to bring this criminal White House to justice that it's best to keep your hopes a little less high.

I'm with you in rooting that Fitz will do the right thing, but I wouldn't bet ten dollars that he will. Not even ten dollars.

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aquart

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Fri Oct-07-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #33

41. Of course he's being given the opportunity to "clarify" his statement.

Perjurers are given lots of chances to do that. The thing is, however, if he tells the truth...it's a whole new set of really nasty charges. Please remember, the jury has heard other witnesses and seen documentary evidence. They already know what he SHOULD be saying.

Remember, too, how long these people have sacrificed their lives to this jury. Think how well they know this material. If there is any way to indict, they will. Because they aren't allowed to go directly to hanging.

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Richardo

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Fri Oct-07-05 03:42 PM
Response to Original message

36. Pardon the profanity, but Karl himself said it best:

"We will FUCK him! We will FUCK him like he's never be FUCKED before!!"

Same to ya, big boy.

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Hissyspit

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Fri Oct-07-05 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #36

38. What was the original context of that line? I know it was a reported

overheard conversation, but who was it who said they heard it? I am drawing a blank.

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Esra Star

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Fri Oct-07-05 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #38

39. Jeff Gannon and a friend waiting in the Lincoln Suite n/t

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Fiendish Thingy

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Fri Oct-07-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message

40. Maybe he'll squeal like a pig to the GJ...

to avoid having to squeal like a pig, "Deliverance" style, in prison...
but Ned Beatty could still play him in the movie...

Soooieeee!!!

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aquart

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Fri Oct-07-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #40

42. I don't know how Fitzgerald runs his jury...

But the one I was on was allowed to ask direct questions. Our favorite, because it was financial crimes, was to ask salary and bonus. They just hated telling us. $250,000 salary. $17 million bonus. I'll never forget.

Some juries require questions to be submitted to the foreman. But it is possible for the jurors to make the insulated Rove feel very uncomfortable indeed.

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