True or False : 9/11 changed everything.

We can now declare pre-emptive war on anyone that we think poses a threat to our nation.

We can lie or manipulate intelligence if it is in the defense of our country.

We can pass Patriot Acts and declare war on the rights of Americans if we think it will help to prevent an attack by the terrorists that hate us for our freedoms.

Everything has changed because of what happened on 9/11. True or False?

... if it is in the defense of our country."

The intelligence I think you are talking about was not even in defense of our country. :(

presidency to be stolen in 2000.

Everything changed because, we didn't elect Bush.
But, perhaps that was the result of the changes that had already taken place.

and no one cared. That's when everything changed. Under Bushco our government -- especially the Executive branch -- began its march toward becoming secretive, fascist, intrusive into citizen rights and imperialistic. 9-11 was just a catalyst.

the neocons want, like burning the Bill of Rights and invadeing nations that have resources we want and lying about the reason for it.

It is just a marketing campaign. It happened in Sept cuz 'you don't launch a new product in August.' That comment (was it by Libby?) pretty well tipped their hand.

If memory serves...?

The worst part about aging = CRS disorder ;)

Had it been done right , few of these things would have happened.

:sarcasm:


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September 11 didn't change everything. The NeoCons viewed it as an opportunity to change everything. Everytime I hear this I wince. September 11 didn't change anything. There have always been terrorists who aim to strike us here or abroad. That day they struck NYC. Next year they may strike LA. But changing everything including preemptive war, torture policies, PATRIOT ACT, renditions, etc because of 19 crazy mofos who killed themselves anyway really pisses me off.

Welcome to DU, think4yourself!

:hi:

Wars. The Constitution is still the Constitution.

The Truth is still the Truth, and Lies are still Lies.

It changed everything THEY wanted to change.

NO ONE has shown me any concrete evidence, that 19 hand-jobs from Saudi Arabia and Jordan took orders from some clown in a freakin' cave in Afghanistan.

NO ONE has shown me how these asshats were able to defeat the most effective air defense system known to man.
That would be the United States Air Force, and it's early warning systems that can tell if a ultra-light is skimming restricted air space in freakin' Wyoming.

NOBODY has proved that to me beyond a shadow of a doubt.

This is nothing but a power grab, by some of the most blatantly anti-american hand-jobs in the history of our once great nation.

I say, I wish someone from our party would stand up and say PROVE IT!.

Everything changed after 9/11 but sadly 9/11 had NOTHING to do with it.

... that was already happening.

You mean the CIA did not already wage pre-emptive war on whoever the hell they fancied that morning?

And please, the lying and manipulation of intelligence has happened in the US, the UK and anywhere else you choose to mention since Eve said to Adam "apple?... what apple?"

And the rights of Americans have been dicked around with "for the sake of expedience" since George Washington and his buddies set them "in stone"

If it wasn't the British, it was the French, if it wasn't the French it was Europe as a whole, if it wasn't Europe it was Germany, if it wasn't Germany it was Russia, if it wasn't Russia it was China, if it wasn't China it was "the war on terror".

All September 11th 2001 did was give grist to the mill of the hawks.

Same shit, different day.

this country.
People have became totally stupid and allowed themselves to be hogwashed into believing anything the regime wanted.

most of the ills and evil of this country existed before 9-11. I think the only thing that changed is the mask has been removed.

We were illegally invading countries, though not declaring war - which still hasn't been declared against Iraq - since at least Korea.

The government has been lying about things, including intelligence "in defense of our country" since at least the Spanish American war.

The PATRIOT ACT is new, but the government has infringed on people's rights pretty much any time Americans stand up and try to claim their rights.

it gave the criminals the excuse then needed to start their war. They needed this war to drain the treasury into their pockets, and to get the so called Patriot act passed. They need to drain the treasury to bring on a major recession to deplete the resources of the general population so we cannot fight back effectively.
The patriot Act is the prime act needed for the neo-cons to take total control of this country.

The curtain falls in 2010. Waiting for the next election to fix things is a straw man. It hasn't worked so far and we are running out of time.

That's a very easy, knee-jerk piece of shit-pablum that these people have been taught to puke up every hour on the hour. Just slam KATRINA back in their faces when they do that.

KATRINA CHANGED IT BACK.

That's right: people were dying horribly on 9/11. After 9/11, the Bush government was given an opportunity to fix things so that would never happen again.

2005: On and after 8/28, people were again dying horribly. Bushco had their chance, and they failed 100%. Now, out they go!!!!!

All the things you mentioned and so much more would never have been possible without it. 9/11 didn't call for those things, but 9/11 was why it was allowed.

It HAD to be something BIG, horrendous, something captured on camera that we could see over and over. Something that would be so unsettling people would be knocked off their foundation, filled with fear and uncertainty.

Then a fake cowboy could look like a hero and the old testament god looked pretty good too. Those guys would keep us safe.
It has always struck me as strange that the hundreds of pages of a bill with the perfect acronym, PATRIOT act, could be started and completed in a few weeks. Rushed through, who would say no to a PATRIOT Act.

“Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism” Act. So really even better, the USA PATRIOT Act
What a coincidence.
Without 9/11 there is no way that such a thing would be passed without question, without being read. It wouldn't be considered.

Without 9/11 a preemptive war based on scary words would not have had the support of the public and bush would not have been granted that power. It could not have happened.

Without 9/11 the public and press (and politicians) would have noticed more, questioned more, spoken out more. The free pass given bush went far beyond the wars or terrorism, next to nothing was questioned or were quickly silenced.

Uncertain people wanted something to believe in. They were blinded by fear and waving flags and god blessing America and evil doers everywhere.

If this was a novel the storyline would insist on a 9/11 to make what has happened even partly believable.

9/11 changed everything.

When anyone starts blathering about "9/11 changed everything!!!!"

All you have to do is respond: "Well, then, you're admitting that THE TERRORISTS WON."


That IS what they strove to do when those planes were divebombed into our buildings. They wanted destabilization. They wanted us to turn ourselves inside out, create utter chaos in our financial markets, turn us on each other so we wind up all preoccupied by the noble pursuite of the Circular Firing Squad. That way, if we're all in a tizzy, we're pretty preoccupied, period. And understanding us (as they DO, believe me) and our tendencies, they gambled that we'd then come lashing out everywhere and anywhere with no rhyme nor reason, thereby ensuring that WE'D do all THEIR heavy lifting for them, making enemies for ourselves that it would take much more effort for them to do on our behalf. It's like winding up the wind-up doll and then just letting go. Just as the dreaded Michael Ledeen of PNAC fame said, in his many repeated exhortations that we go the kick-some-Moslem-ass route:

(pointed out by DUer DoYouEverWonder)
"Stability is an unworthy American mission, and a misleading concept to boot. We do not want stability in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and even Saudi Arabia. The real issue is not whether, but how best to destabilize," - Michael Ledeen

In THIS context, that means that WE are the terrorists, every bit as much as any Mohammed Atta.

changed everything.

sick nation.

i think the 'media' is a conglomeration, with a variety of bias's, but does anyone notice the seamlessness with which the bulkmedia has abetted the bush gang? For example, on the morning of sept 11th, why didn't any media demand answers to the obvious: why was the air defense so incapable? was it possible a rogue element of the secret police/military did it, re the 'lone gunman' episode from the spring of 2001? The main focus of course was the tragedy unfolding, and the news would have tried to be patriots etc, but why didn't they suspect that a sophisticated operation like 911 MIGHT be staged, by the same jokers 1/2 of hollywood action movies seem to say is behind most nefarious going ons, ie the 'bad' cia, used by bad guys in powerful offices, for evil reasons? It was the same as the oj simpson case: let's pretend it was a vast drama involving fame and wealth and race when anyone could see it was just another dreary domestic murder case that happens several times a day in the usa, and justice is best served by media practising self denial, not creating a worse racial hatred atmosphere in an already tense society. The men who run the usa and the news media have worked a long time to create a national mood precisely the result of things like the oj simpson case; they compounded the damage by relentlessly trying to ruin clinton, year after year demonizing liberalism - and even then, clinton's popularity was such that he would have been elected again in 2k had the people given a choice (al gore was elected, but that's integral to this argument) the fact is, 911 burned the bridges of the men who own/operate and run the newsmedia...bush never won the election and the newsmedia would have been forced to say it aloud, as soon as the NORC results were published in late sept/01. ...bushinc preempted any problems with an angry electorate by ...well, 911 happened and bushinc obviously gained by it, if only by postponing the publication of NORC results and telling the newsmedia 'you do as told, cuz if we go down you go down too, cuz you put us into office, you covered up the coup, you have no choice'
on nov10/01, the morning the NORC results were published, flight 587 blew up leaving la guardia airport, 250 people died. BUT IT WASN'T TERRORISM! The pigmedia very quickly reported that
a)it was just an accident
b) it was probably just an accident, malfunction, with the jet type prone to its tail falling off
c)it might be an accident
d)it could easily be an accident and d)it was certainly an accident

Why? Why say it just an accident when entire country scared of the bastards who did 911, the trauma still so fresh? Why? well, the 'accident' stopped the NORC results from any media exposure, enough that within days, pigmedia can say 'the numbers prove bush won election' when the opposite was the fact. And that's all bush needed. The airline industry was suffering enough;if terrorism was suspected in the flight 587 crash, well...that NO GOOD! so the media all say 'IT JUST LIL OLE ACCIDENT FOLKS! DON'T WORRY, be happy' and flight 587 faded from public awareness, along with any mention of the NORC rsults...

the terrorists won.

So sad for our country.

There had been terrorist attacks in the US before 9/11. What's different is that this time, Bush decided to politicize it. I think Karl Rove came out with a memo shortly after saying how they can use the attack for political gains.

I like what a previous poster (Calimary) said about how if we believe that 9/11 changed everything, then the terrorists have won.

and politicians took advantage of it

9/11 was so bad bcs it happened to *us*. Horrible terrorism happens every day. If anything, 9/11 should have made us realize that peaceful solutions were the only reasonable alternative. THAT would have changed everything.

No, we are not different, we're the same old sick species we were before. But - peacefully reaching out to the terrorist's base and honestly dealing with the problems - ahhh, now that would have changed everything.

And our opponent is desperate for fear to top the list when assessing every issue. Fear of anyone who looks different or is attracted differently or prays differently (or less or not at all) or assesses other regions or cultures differently, etc, etc, etc.

So how can we deny 9/11 didn't play smack into their playbook? Rationale evaluation of which party's course is better for the economy was slammed into the back seat and every day featured colorized terror status and new factors like duct tape.

Here is the relevant link I've posted many times, regarding party identification switch toward the GOP post 9/11. This was hardly backfitting after the election. It was available and posted and ominous many months ahead of last November. The Diebold crew that insists the election was stolen should look at the predictive evaluation, while understanding Democrats never win nationally with party ID parity. We generally need a 2-4 point bulge : http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=750

The only thing 9/11 did, was make MORE OF US AWARE of the road we were being led down..and of those who intended to and would steal our freedom right from under us, on the pretense of providing us with safety/security....didn't our forefathers warn us of allowing our Democracy to become corporate ruled? Weren't we warned about sacrificing liberty for safety, and as a result, not deserving of either? Didn't President Eisenhower WARN us about a small band of men(Texas oil millionaires to be exact?)...??Didn't Kennedy try to take us off the Fed Res banking system? Haven't others warned us of shadow governments?? See, the thing is, we WEREN'T paying attention, even to what was taking place right in front of our eyes..why that kind of thing couldn't happen in America....Guess what...those things ARE happening here..because we got careless, lazy and apathetic..things were going good, so there was no reason to be concerned about anything, including who we put in office...let someone else vote..now here we are, realizing finally that OUR Democracy...is at a critical stage...and the next couple years will tell whether it's going to survive or not...
windbreeze

in a way that suited their imperialistic, highly distorted vision.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=107432

So why didn't we invade Pakistan?

Everything changed afterward because the NeoCons had planned on changing it for years.


M.I.H.O.P.

> We can now declare pre-emptive war on anyone that we think poses a threat to our nation.

Been done before. Typicaly more covertly but its been done.

> We can lie or manipulate intelligence if it is in the defense of our country.

Been done frequently before.

> We can pass Patriot Acts and declare war on the rights of Americans if we think it will help to prevent an attack by the terrorists that hate us for our freedoms.

Internment camps ring a bell?? Red hunts? This is not new, just the latest incarnation.

> Everything has changed because of what happened on 9/11. True or False?

False.

What specificaly changed?

And no nothing should have.

9-11 Comission ID'd the need for crosstalk between Intel and Law Enforcement

American people became comfortable with the idea of attacking countries that sponsor terrorism instead of just going after the actual attackers. Thus the war vs Afghanistan.

Falwell saw those buildings fall and knew it was because god was mad at us for tolerating homos and abortion. I saw those buildings fall and saw it as just another selfish and ugly act of maniacs who believe in an afterlife. Neither of us learned a thing or changed one whit.

What it DID change is the level of justification, and among conservatives--and other scared and selfish people--it heightened the need and justification to destroy anyone of a different mindset.

Yes, it changed everything by justifying haters to crush all opposition, but it hardly changed anyone's opinions.

9/11 changed everything because it brought home the fact that America's actions abroad have consequences at home.

My guess is about 1/4 of Americans either knew this already, or figured it out in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

Another 1/4 have figured it out since then.

We still have 1/2 the country to go, but recent approval numbers for Bush and his policies are encouraging.

9/11 did change everything. It made the consequences of reckless foreign policy much more real.

nt

September 11th should have woken this country up and made us realize we are not alone in this world. To a large extent Americans don't care about anything outside the borders of this country and because of that we didn't understand the enemy or see what they were capable of before they struck. Instead we are just as closed-minded as we ever were - no, make that more closed-minded than we were before 9/11.

September 11th gave us a great opportunity to strengthen our international relationships and Bush instead pissed them all away. Instead of using it as a way to foster communication he turned everyone away from us.

And, yes, we should strengthen our defenses against terrorism. We always thought it would never happen here (which was a naive and stupid thing to assume) and once we saw it could and would happen here, we should have responded. And we should have gone after those responsible. Instead we pissed the resources away in Iraq because Cheney & Co. had a hard-on for an illegal invasion.

It disgusts and saddens me.

something quite darker and more ominous. No freedom can be found in a country governed by liars. Any such government is an enemy of the principles supposedly set forth by this nation and will forever remain illegitimate.

No country attacked us on 9/11. A bunch of people who held certain beliefs about us attacked us. It should have been a police matter.

We should have hunted down the perpetrators and tried them in a court of law.

No everything did not change with 9/11. It is being used to put into motion plans that were in place before 9/11.