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"Pull the f***ing trigger, Lucey!"

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 07:59 PM
Original message
"Pull the f***ing trigger, Lucey!"
Edited on Sun Nov-13-05 08:07 PM by welshTerrier2
i went out to hear a couple of big names speak tonight (my recap coming tomorrow) at a nearby forum ... one was Barney Frank; the other was John Bonifaz of AfterDowningStreet.org ... they were accompanied by a husband and wife, the Luceys ... their son was an Iraq War casualty ...

The husband, Kevin Lucey, spoke about the loss of Jeff, his son ... he said Jeff was a real wiseguy ... he was the class clown ... he said there were times he just could have killed his son but that he was a great kid; a real happy kid ... "Jeff was full of life" ... he remembered the time Jeff zapped Cinderella at Disneyworld with a joy buzzer ... the kid wasn't a saint ...

Jeff committed suicide months after he returned from Iraq ... Kevin Lucey said more than one-fourth of those returning from the war suffer psychological problems ... i wondered whether the military was including deaths from post-traumatic stress in the counts of those who "died in Iraq" ... it appears they are ... Lucey emphasized that the Vets Administration is badly underfunded ... he said "the VA failed Jeff and it failed us" ... Lucey concluded his remarks by saying that "those who don't adequately support the troops after they return have no right to say they support the troops; all they really support is the war ..."

here's the information i found about the death of Jeff Lucey ... the military investigated itself and dismissed the allegations (see below) Jeff had made ... stories like this make it all the more amazing that anyone, especially Democrats, can call for another year or more of war ... this madness has got to be stopped now before it senselessly takes another life ..


source: http://www.pigstye.net/iraq/article.php/LuceyJeff

What Jeff Lucey told his family about his time in Iraq as a Marine reservist made the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib pale in comparison.

His father, Kevin Lucey, remembers his son's story: Two unarmed Iraqi men had stood before Jeff in the desert. They were presumably prisoners.

"Pull the f***ing trigger, Lucey!" someone had shouted. His gun was shaking, but he did look into the eyes of one of the guys. He said it was a young guy like him. The kid was scared. Jeff was wondering if this was somebody's son, somebody's brother, somebody's father, somebody's friend.

The order to shoot came again. Jeff obeyed.

He was about five feet away. The blood splattered all over. And then he shot the second one. One was in the eye, and one was in the throat.

Jeff told his family he watched the men die. Then he removed their dog tags and later brought them back home with him.

For Jeff's family, there seemed no question that the young man, angry and anguished, was telling the truth. And if they did have any lingering doubts about the ordeal Jeff went through in Iraq, they disappeared on June 22, 2004, when, nearly a year after coming home from the war, Jeff Lucey hanged himself with a garden hose in his family's basement in Belchertown, Mass.

Jeff Lucey was a lance corporal in the 1st Truck Platoon of the 6th Motor Transport Battalion, a small, tightly knit Marine Reserve unit based in New Haven, Conn. The 6th Motors, as they call themselves, drove truck convoys for three months in Iraq at the start of the war. The unit returned home in July 2003 intact -- no deaths, no serious injuries. To many of them, Jeff's suicide was the first casualty. They were saddened and angry. But they didn't want to talk about it with anyone outside the Marine Corps.

When a few Massachusetts newspapers and the foreign policy blog This Is Rumor Control began speculating about events in Iraq that might have led Jeff Lucey to take his own life, the Marine Corps Reserve Public Affairs Office dismissed the stories. "There was nothing we found to substantiate any of the claims," Capt. Patrick B. Kerr told the Daily Hampshire Gazette.

The denial came just four days into the Marine Corps' own investigation. Maj. Jon Woodcock, who was assigned to head the inquiry, had spoken to only a handful of people and was scheduled to continue work for another two months. Already, however, contradictions were emerging.

Capt. Kerr had told This Is Rumor Control that Lucey had had "no interaction with enemy prisoners of war." But Jeff's parents found film in his camera with a photograph showing an enemy prisoner, hands bound, shirt pulled over his head, sitting in the dirt next to a military convoy truck.

And then there were the dog tags.

Jeff had taken to wearing the tags of the two Iraqi POWs around his neck some six months after he came home, around the time he began revealing to family members details of his Iraq experiences. His father asked him if he thought wearing the tags was a healthy thing to do. Jeff replied the tags were not trophies but tokens of honor for the two men he had killed, who did not have to die. "I regarded them as a millstone around his neck," says Kevin Lucey. "He regarded them as so much more."

Maj. Woodcock admitted in an interview that he hadn't bothered to look at the dog tags during his investigation. What could be a valuable piece of evidence naming the men Jeff said he killed remained locked up in the evidence vault of the Massachusetts State Police barracks in Northampton, Mass., part of the material police had gathered while probing Jeff's suicide.

When Maj. Woodcock completed his investigation in early October 2004, he reached the same conclusion offered by Capt. Kerr in August: "Allegations of war crimes alleged by Lance Cpl. Lucey to his father concerning shooting two unarmed Iraqi Enemy Prisoners of War cannot be substantiated."

Reading the heavily redacted version of the Marine investigation, Kevin Lucey was skeptical of its conclusions. So were we.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hear, hear!
"Those who don't adequately support the troops after they return have no right to say they support the troops; all they really support is the war."

Brilliantly said!

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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Rest in peace young men. Those who unleashed the dogs of
war are to blame -not you.

"In the face of their tactics, we cannot move our party or our nation forward under pale colors and timid voices. We cannot become Republican clones. If we do, we will lose again, and deserve to lose. As I have said on other occasions, the last thing this country needs is two Republican parties. - Ted Kennedy"
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. He wore the dogtags to honor unnecessary victims of Bush's war
Sounds like he was of sound mind in a whacked-out nation to me.

It was all he could do, given the circumstances he found himself in. This tragedy must be repeated many times, but the TV news will repress this info.
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AmandaRuth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow.
...

Wow.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is good -thanks. A must read;
"In the face of their tactics, we cannot move our party or our nation forward under pale colors and timid voices. We cannot become Republican clones. If we do, we will lose again, and deserve to lose. As I have said on other occasions, the last thing this country needs is two Republican parties. - Ted Kennedy"
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. so sad....
they must be a courageous family to publicly honor his life and death ...they have my respect.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. i couldn't believe the father could speak at all ...
he was great ...

if i were in his situation, i would have crawled under a rock ... i have no idea where people get that inner strength from in situations like this ...
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
7. The blood of this young man and his victims are on this admin's hands....
Edited on Sun Nov-13-05 08:18 PM by EndElectoral
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JJackFlash Donating Member (541 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Peer pressure caused this war crime?
Don't understand why it's so difficult to do the right thing in the field. They were unarmed prisoners, right?

I'm sorry this young man died, and I'm sorry he didn't have the ethical fortitude to treat those two Iraqi men correctly.
It's an old, old story.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. well, a bit more than "peer pressure"
if you're making an argument that soldiers "should" know the difference between right and wrong, i agree ...

but a wee bit more compassion and understanding might be in order here ... i have never been in combat ... i imagine the indoctrination, perhaps brainwashing, of soldiers is a very powerful influence on them ... they are highly conditioned to follow orders ... and you take these young 18 and 19 year old kids and stick them in the middle of a terrifying war under the command of authority figures, and stuff like this is probably very common ...

understand that i'm not excusing it ... killing defenseless people is and should be a war crime ... by i do understand why it happens ... ultimately, if we want to avoid this type of activity we should avoid going to war in the first place ...
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JJackFlash Donating Member (541 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm not against "going to war in the first place"
I'm no pacifist. I was opposed to THIS stupid war.

The repugs figured it was going to be a cakewalk ("did you see the way those Iraqis surrendered to CNN crews in the 1st Gulf War, huh, huh") and a glorious victory for their party.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. we agree ...
i'm not a pacifist either ... if war is necessary, then it's necessary ... this war was not ...

they republicans thought they could steal the cheese without getting caught in the trap ... of course, they aren't caught in the trap; they're safe and sound in Washington ...

but if Democrats call for withdrawal, real withdrawal, before the republicans do, and i'm not all that confident they will, Democrats will mop up next year and in 2008 ... otherwise, they'll just be another bunch of gray mice ...
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Call it a military ORDER. There is no "right and wrong"
in a war zone.

There is only trying to get out of some rich pigs' chess game in one piece.
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think the young man grew old in a very short time...
...and realized that the kid that he was had been intimidated into committing murder on the battlefield (yes, killing a enemy soldier when you could take them prisoner is murder.)

When, away from the pressure cooker of battle, he realized what he had done...he couldn't live with the horror.

That's this war in a nutshell: How will we live with ourselves if we don't stop this madness?
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. That's right.
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Freedomfried Donating Member (684 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. A little different perspective from Frontline.....
Still a tragedy, but I think this might be more like what really happened.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heart/lucey/

When asked about the treatment of prisoners, one of the Marines in Lucey's unit told me, "You do what you have to do." A more revealing picture comes from Sgt. Foley, who says: "I never saw any prisoners get beat, but they weren't treated the best. Did I shove people and scream at people for absolutely no reason? Yeah. Did I really, really hurt anybody? No. But I didn't really care about them. I didn't care whether they lived or died. I didn't think of them as human anymore. They were more like cattle. I didn't hurt them because I knew I wasn't supposed to." A crack on the head with a rifle butt to move faster, a slap on the face if someone started to mouth off, a shove off the back of a truck bed, dropping six feet, hands tied behind their backs were all commonplace ways to herd uncooperative prisoners.

"Did I feel like a good, moral person when I was over there?" Foley asks during our interview. No. Was I ashamed of myself at times? Sure. I can't really pinpoint why," he says, and then falls silent. Sgt. Foley remembers his senior drill instructor telling him that every Marine needs to have what he called a "human switch." When you go to war, you have to be able to turn it off. "If you're in a situation where you have to kill, then you kill everything -- women, children, plants, dogs -- everything, everything. And if you don't do that, you're going to get killed." Although he's thankful he never had to kill anyone, he knows that while he was in Iraq, "that switch was off."

Jeff's switch may have been off, too. And once back home, trying to turn "the human switch" on again might have illuminated a tangle of bad memories -- visions of bloated corpses and body parts; smells of diesel fuel mixed with gunpowder and burning flesh; scenes of begging, wounded children -- and a host of guilty feelings he would have liked to forget.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. the "human switch": excellent info, thanks ...
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 08:35 AM by welshTerrier2
this is ultimately why, in my subjective view, no one should ever join the military ...

i don't think it's ever acceptable to relinquish control of what you believe is right and wrong to another person, or, worse yet, to an institution ... this is not to say that we don't need a military; we do ... but viewed through the lens of individual choices, and understanding that the pressure is to conform and obey, the institution seems poisoned by its own definition and no one should join it ...

now there's a paradox ...
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I smell apologism. Either the Marines recruited a guy who was
mentally (and maybe physically, if the claims of his "alcoholism" are true) to serve--or this guy was really, really, really, messed up by his service in Iraq. Or both.

Your article does not completely discount that some of what Lucey said happened, may have happened.

The overriding message is that the service in this fraudulent Iraq war either messed up a guy who was healthy (to the point of driving him to commit suicide), or messed up a guy who was not mentally or physically fit to serve and who should therefore not have been in the Marines.

I knew one Vietnam vet who told a horrible story about exploding a building, then going through the remains of the building and finding a dead boy, and "when I turned the body over, I thought he had the face of my (young) son."

This story was probably false. But the overriding truth was still there: the Vietnam war did that to this man. (Years later, the Vietnam vet committed suicide.) Whether or not he made up a story is not the main issue. What kind of sickness causes a man to make up a horror story like that in the first place? My guess is--the sickness that comes from having to participate in an unjustifiable war. Please don't tell me "Lucey volunteered to serve". Who the HELL knows what to "volunteer" for when they are that age??

Lucey is a casualty of Bush/Cheney's fraudulent, unforgiveable, invasion of Iraq. Time to send a garden hose to Bush/Cheney.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
18. Cheney is going to pay big for this, because I don't think this will
be an isolated case.
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. IMO, he won't have paid enough till he gets his own garden hose.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. What frightens me is how ingrained this sickness is in middle America.
We have a group of Republicans who really believe that these periods of chaos and corruption are okay because it's good for the economy. THEY'RE NUTS! We have to convince them that the economic benefits to the few that get them are not helping this country in the long run. There are costs that they cannot see. Why don't we have someone in the Democratic party who has access to the data that will convince them in a tangible way?
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No Exit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. We have an "economy" instead of a culture.
The repukes will not be convinced. Those who support stupidity/chaos, because it's "good for the economy", have in my opinion a perversion of a natural human instinct. The natural human instinct is to gain food, shelter, etc., in order to ensure survival. These repukes' instinct (or genetic programming) is out of whack. It's in overdrive. They gain enough food, shelter, etc., to ensure their survival, but something drives them to keep on and on and on. It's like they've got the "greed gene" from both sides of the family. You know about sickle cell anemia? If a person gets the genetic component(s) of the sickle cell from only ONE side of his family, the genetic component makes him more resistant to malaria. That's a good thing. But if he gets the genetic component from both sides of the family, he has sickle cell anemia and is in danger of dying.

The repukes who favor fraudulent war/chaos/stupidity because it's "good for the economy" have got an overdose of the "greed gene". (Or we could call it the "mine, mine, all mine gene".)
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
23. a powerful story. Very sad. Ultimately, this is a war against all of our
humanity. So many of us are losing it in so many ways.
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