Bush desperate - about to divide America again, issue latinos

I was watching "The Chris Matthews Show" on NBC, and the reporters let drop a little bit of insider information: Bush is about to launch a major offensive on illegal immigration (similar to what Pete Wilson did in 94 with Prop 187).

This is a typical Karl Rove tactic: bait and switch.

I guess Bush is done with the gays and now wants to pick on the hispanics. I bet those 40% of latinos who voted for Bush are feeling pretty stupid right now.

Get ready for it.

Bush is such a horse turd.

What's left to say? * is the antichrist and has done nothing but brought death, distruction, more disharmony than we ever could imagine.

Collapse is all that CAN happen.

Illegal immigration is a total myth. Yeah the actual numbers crossing are high, but most stay only seasonally and actually benefit their employers and consequentially, our economy. Most RWingers would want you to believe they drain the tax base, but it's no comparison to the benefit of their employment.

Seriously, who would work all those agricultural jobs in California? Teenagers from Laguna Beach? Our economy is barely staying afloat as it is WITH the low wages.

from the Sapanish speaking communities is enormous! It's not just agriculture, but construction and many, many other areas of the economy that they work in. Besides, as I understand it, the largest population of "illegals" are Canadians!

Illegal immigrants drive cheap subdividion building and the sprawl economy, which is BAD for America. Endless growth is a myth and a disaster waiting to happen.

Immigrants from Mexico put far more into the economy than they take from it. It's just another in a long line of faux Salem witches for these filthy Republicans - a line that includes black "welfare" moms, gays and lesbians, Muslims, the French and Germans, and so on and so on.
When is America going to say "enough."

They cross into our country illegally and it appears to me that they stay. Since their pay is so low, we get to take care of their medical expenses, provide low income housing , provide food stamps and provide an education to them and their dependents (plus they take jobs that AMERICANS can work) I think we are getting the sh-t end of the stick, having to pay for these expenses with our tax money while the wealthy get the benefit of cheap labor.

but it is true that most workers crossing the border send most of their money home to the family and then return somewhat wealthy months or years later. For the people that stay, the jobs they take aren't exactly sought after. a lot of places in this country it's impossible to find an American citizens working as a maid, gardener, landscaper, construction worker, fast food employee etc.

And our unemployment rate is still pretty low compared to other industrialized nations, even with all the immigrants.

But to support your point, when I moved from Texas to Pittsburgh and saw white guys mowing lawns, I was shocked. Some places haven't felt the effects yet.

Back in my blue-collar childhood, guys who worked construction were considered to be shitting in tall cotton: they got good union wages and benefits.

Now that the wages and bennies are gone, construction has become one of those "jobs Americans won't do," just like meatpacking did in the 1980s.

An illegal immigrant does not qualify for social programs. You have to provide proof of residency. US born children of immigrants do qualify but this is because they are citizens. Illegal immigration is a problem because the fact that there is a slave class is repugnant but blaming them for all the problems in this country is wrong. Plus, I find it horrifying that Bush is launching an attack against this cheap labor while propping up a system in Mexico that creates this poor class of people who have no choice but to leave their homes in order to survive.

When the apartments turned low income, almost the ENTIRE occupancy turned hispanic, many of whom are illegals. How do I know? Because I was accosted by one of them in the laundry room telling me that they were going to populate the US Southwest so they could vote to turn it back over to Mexico. Unfortunately, many of the illegals here believe this. Yes, they are often belligerant to me about it since I'm one of the few white persons still living here and they prefer to see me gone.

No, I don't like them. Not because they're Mexican or illegals, but because they move here intending to stay, and they intend to use the priviledge to undermine our country.

Personal experience. IMO, send them all home.

Mexicans or illegals. You don't have problems with illegals? What are you trying to say?

By the way, that Southwest invasion is paranoid, racist bullshit. How do I know? I'm Hispanic. Wanna send me to a "home" I have no idea about?

IMO, if someone wants to be an American, assume American values (constitution, civil rights, etc.), and supports America (the country, political dissent excluded - I don't care what party they support), they're very welcome. If they want to dis the country and/or disassemble it, they need to go home to their own country, in this case Mexico. It's pretty crude to say you're moving into a country so you can detach parts of it to give to your home country, don't you think?

I was also saying there are plenty of illegals in my federally subsidized apartment complex. So your tax dollars ARE paying part of the expenses of the illegals here.

That southwest reconquest crap is so fringe. Most immigrants come here to find work not to reconquer anything. And how do you know they're illegals? Did you ask to see their green cards?

As I said, the view is quite common here. It is irritating.

WRT others who don't share that view who just want to work, or who just want to ACTUALLY BE Americans, I have no problem with that. I don't think they should live in federally subsidized housing when we have so many American citizens who are homeless or underhoused. You may disagree, but I believe our tax dollars should serve US citizens first, and any others if there's still available space. It would be stupid to support policies that dispossess American citizens to make way for illegals.

evicted due to an immigrant. Also, why would anyone who's trying to keep under the radar admit to being here illegally? That's stupid. Anyway, I don't particularly feel like arguing with you anymore so that's that. Later.

...is that Americans who PAID for the housing can't then find a low income apartment. Do you know how long the waiting lists are for subsidized housing?

WRT illegals admitting their status - how the heck many illegals have you actually talked to? I've lived in California, Texas and Utah. In all 3 states I've talked to illegals that admitted their status. They're not afraid to admit it because ICE doesn't send them home even if they're caught. Even if an illegal is forcibly brought to the attention of ICE, they schedule them for a hearing (which usually results in them staying anyway) and they're released. There's no risk involved even if everyone on the block knows they're illegal. I've lived in this apartment complex for years and I've never once seen ICE come and take away anyone I know is illegal. I've also never seen ICE or it's predecessor take away anyone else that I knew was illegal. So why would someone who is here illegally feel any fear about revealing their status?

No wonder you're bitter.

...got to this point. No doubt you've shared the bounty from my tax dollar, as well.

This is just fear mongering. Although it would be a clever plan, if true. Never happen though.

If I'm going to have illegals next door, I want them to be good neighbors. If they aren't, I'm going to want to send them home. It's just human nature.

for citizenship?

We do need some controls on who we let in or we're going to end up with criminals or drug dealers next door. Is that what you want?

And before you scoff, read up on MS 13.

Nor do I want neighbors who are actively trying to undermine the United States, or plotting to break into my house to supplement their income.

They can move next door to you, however.

work for much less. The myth is that immigrants do work that Americans won't! Well, if a decent wage was paid you'd find many Americans willing to do the work. In reality it is the fat cat Republican that are getting wealthy on low income workers and not allowing a vote on the Senate floor to raise the minimum wage. Go figure.

that isn't claimed by illegals. Go figure. Imagine how much in the whole or in disaray our Social Security system would be if we put the iron curtain around our border.

(Ch*rtoff) will be in Az. to give a rousing (as in rabble) speech on the need to protect the Southern Border. Sorry, but these guys are such losers. They need to be building bridges to the Hispanic community, not making it look like we need to shut out all immigration on the Southern Border because there might be a chance that a terra-ist can sneak in.
Apparently, it takes two or three years to get a job with ICE. Maybe the dept. will melt soon.

New Orleans and the rest of the Gulf states. Oh yeah! Man, I feel safer now!!! :eyes:

Maybe they'll put Brownie on it...

After all, he has hung out his shingle again.

regarding education, which kind of pissed me off and I thought I have to write the editor

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-callan26nov26,1,2896567.story

snip
The transformation will occur as baby boomers, the most highly educated generation in U.S. history, retire. Across the country they will be replaced by a growing population of young workers from the nation's least-educated minority groups. The share of the workforce that is college educated will shrink accordingly, losing the U.S. much of its advantage in the global marketplace.

The problem is national, but in California it will be particularly severe. Consider some of our report's findings: The Latino population, by far the least educated of any of the state's large minority groups, is expanding dramatically. By 2020, Latinos will make up as large a share of the state's working-age population (people 25 to 64 years old) as whites — about 38% Latino and 39% white. This is a seismic shift; in 1990, only 22% of working-age adults were Latino and 61% were white. And the gap in education between Latinos and whites in California will turn the demographic shift into a statewide economic decline.

larger majority of the Latino population are American born, educated and mostly married to non Hispanics (married to whites). Hispanics in my family have Hispanic/White children. The children are white but have Hispanic last names. The schools list them as hispanic because of their last name (Rodriguez-Whitney).

he thinks that'll get his base back in line, you know, the minutemen on the borders?

That 40% of Hispanics voted for the Turd. If they hadn't, he would have lost the election. I wonder if the hispanic vote across the US goes the same way as it did in CA after Wilson used the issue to pull his ass out of the fire.

I have a feeling that this will backfire in a big time way for Bush.

Hispanics are also the fastest growing community in America. This may be the end of the GOP for a generation.

Stop pretending that they are not an essential part of our economy.

should have US citizen rights? What about their children born on
American soil?

has had citizenship rights since the founding of the nation (Except slaves and Indians, but lets leave that alone for now.)

Why would you like to change the rules just for mexicans?

Those not born here, guest workers, would live by the guest worker rules established.

Do you really think that building walls around fortress america is the act of a sane, rational, humane society?

And any people here for any reason whatever have Human Rights. Even if they are deported, they should be treated humanely.

If they are good members of the community, I believe that workers should be able to earn US Citizenship.

Bussiness want the immigrants to be illegal becase illegals can't go to the goverment for help if thier emplyer is treating him/her like a slave, he would be deported. The Repukes make illegal immigration an issue to keep the xenophobes in line, they really don't want reform, they like it just they way it is. The only way to stop this crap is to legalize guest workers, then employers can't use thier illegal status to exploit them.

are we, the progressives, going to go for the metooist xenophobic anti-immigrant challenge that the fascist cabal is tossing up now as a diversion? Are we, like we did with 911 and Iraq, out of fear of 'looking soft on whatever', out of fear of standing up for our principles, regardless of the political pitfalls, going to join in with the hate-mongers and fear-merchants? Is the Democratic Party's policy going to be a better managed wall across our southern border? A less incompetent brute force approach to our illegal guest workers?

Or are we going to speak truth to power and start talking common sense to common people?

You can't pussy foot around it ... The borders have to be LOCKED UP ...

You have to contain the problem first ... This is about the illegal's, it is also about "security" ... It darn well should have been one of the very first things these idiots in the white house did after 9-11 instead of doing everything they could to get into Iraq ... All of these guard and reserve units in Iraq should have been used IN AMERICA, where they were intended to be used, to put a hammer hold on our borders until we got our borders secured ...

Of course, that isn't what happened ... But, it still is what should happen ...

I am not in favor of just giving illegals status in the first place, but it makes NO sense to go and do it if the borders are not secure ... At the rate it is now, if every illegal here in the USA was made a citizen today, we would have 2 million illegals a year from now ...

LOCK the borders up ... Then start to work on finding a way to deal with the illegals who are here ...

Not one. The millenia bomber crossed over from canada. Should we wall that off as well?

The 911 team got here legally.

All of those 'illegals' are essential to our economy, a fact your side just wants to wish away.

The Southern Border has NEVER been locked up. And the hints that "terrorists" will come in that way are from the same folks who let 9/11 happen.

Old plan: guest workers

Conservatives hated it.

There are allot of distrustful red voters after Bush tried to fuck with Social Security.

"Our goal at DHS is to completely eliminate the 'catch and release' enforcement problem, and return every single illegal entrant--no exceptions," Chertoff said. He said DHS is working with the State Department to develop a "catch and return" policy.
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1005/101805p1.htm

Then on Nov. 15:

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
"The cost of identifying all of those people and sending them back would be stupendous. It would be billions and billions of dollars," Chertoff told Sean Hannity on the Fox News Channel program "Hannity & Colmes" last night.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47415

So NOW...uh, what? "We" will hire like, one million more border patrol agents? Which would cost, oh, billions and billions of dollars?

I'm so f*cking confused...stay the course....don't stay the course...f*ck the course...which course are we taking today? Oh, I see, THAT course, okay, let's stay THAT course, until, oh, next week...

Unless you are saying that all or most Hispanics believe that it's okay for people to come here illegally, and for companies to hire illegal immigrants and pay them low pay and not have to worry about treating them fairly.

I'd like to think that a significant portion of Hispanic voters respect our laws, and aren't much fonder of illegal immigration than I am.

Of course, * will totally fuck up anything he does to ostensibly address the illegal immigration problem, so ultimately his 'solution' may come out anti-Hispanic anyway.

That was "targetted" to "illegals" too. Yet, the attacks were against all latino's.

Also, don't forget what the aftermath was...the GOP are political poison in CA now.

Given that Bush won 40% of the hispanic vote, and that he won the election by only 2% - this would be trouble for the GOP in future elections.

They can accept the fascist framing of 'sealing off the borders' from the terraists and hordes of unwashed illegals, or they can reframe the debate and portray the Republicans as anti-hispanic hate mongers.

Not me, with my pale, freckled skin. (Perhaps in Boston--but that source of illegals has dried up, I hear.)

Legal immigrants, those born in the US, and those whose ancestors were on this side of the Border long before mine crossed the ocean--will be asked to prove their status because of the way they look.

... he's already cost Republicans the black vote as far as the eye can see, why not alienate Latinos as well?

But know this, where I live, in Dallas, our economy would fall apart without immigrant workers. People love to bitch and moan, but who will mow your lawn, who will get up on your roof in 100 degree weather and replace your shingles, who will fix your brakes for a labor cost of $20?

Trust me, all the talk about illegals is nothing but talk. Nothing is going to change, if the congress wanted to do anything about this issue they'd fund the INS instead of making them run on a shoestring.

Business constituencies love cheap labor, and the Mexicans provide it in spades. Nothing is going to change.

It's only an anecdote, but here goes -- my mother HATES bush, can't stand him, hates our government, hates the war, hates it all. There's only 1 thing she "hates" more than all that -- illegal immigrants taking jobs away from Americans and getting onto welfare and public assistance when true Americans are suffering.

No matter how much I explain that my father's family were illegal immigrants, that the labor of such immingrants in no small way supports our economy, that the real problem is lack of jobs and a non-existent living wage...no dice. She hates 'em. Wants to close the borders to them all.

And she voted Kerry. And she's a "New England" liberal. And her new favorite is Feingold.

So, this issue will appeal to a much broader section of the US than he will lose by targeting Latinos.

My 2 cents.

Illegal immigrants mostly aren't taking jobs away from anyone. Every honest study of the alleged cost to the system discovers once more that these people work hard are not generally using welfare, and are a massive net benefit to the economy, not a drain. We are a nation of immigrants, and yet we chronically fear that somehow the current set of new arrivals is somehow going to destroy everything we hold dear.

Reframed as what it is: fear of foreigners and mean spirited bigotry exploted by self serving politicians, and voters are actually turned off by immigrant bashing.

Thanks for the reminder.

My mother would still have a problem with illegal immigrants if we lived north of Finland. It's the "illegal" part, not the Mexican part. The supposed taking away of "American" jobs regardless of by whom.

And where in my post did I suggest racism only exists in the South?

(If I'm ascribing the wrong tone to your post, sorry.)

Its all fine and good (in a Rovian way) to yammer about this issue, but when you get right down to it, and have to pass legislation and FUND the legislation, congress will fucking melt down.

Its just another divisive campaign ploy and there is no campaign going on. Plus, each congresscritter in 2006 is gonna have a different take on what to be done (or not done) depending on his constituency.

Bottom line:

Bush is one desperate little Cowboy Wannabe.

If he ain't, then it's bullshit.

The labor is the drug, and the illegal immigrant is the trafficker. Where's the demand? It's not coming from some buck-toothed redneck playing soldier on the border. It's coming from virtually every facet of our economy where unskilled labor is used.

Target the demand, and the problem solves itself. But Bush won't do that, because he backs the people who rely on illegal labor. The business owners are the people stealing American jobs, not the immigrants who are supplying the labor.

Just like you did, by trying to point out that Bush is "anti-Hispanic" by doing this, or

Realize that many Americans (dem and repug) are concerned about border security.

I'm not sure which is the right approach, but I think our potential candidates are split on this issue.

follow the Rove script and by early next year "Immigration" will dominate the airwaves the way "Gay Marriage" was everywhere before 2004.

Maybe people here should plan ahead?


Immigration divides hispanic from organized labor, so its the old RNC "Divide and Conquer"

It also mobilzies the Neo-Nazi/KKK wing of the Republican Party that wants the USA to be all-white and that wants to blame Americas ills on someone else (Immigrants are always a favorite group for blame throwing).

This fixation with the I issue has Rove all over it.