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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:22 PM
Original message
WP blog: Potential Dem candidates positioning on Iraq
The Fix
By Chris Cillizza
Posted at 04:15 PM ET, 11/29/2005
Democrats' Split Personality on Iraq


Democrats weighing a 2008 presidential run appear to be moving in two directions when it comes to the difficult issue of setting a timetable for drawing down the U.S. military presence in Iraq.

Virginia Gov. Mark Warner (D) used a Monday speech before the Asia Society in New York City to reject the idea of setting a firm timeline for U.S. troops to begin leaving Iraq. "To set an arbitrary deadline or specific date is not appropriate," Warner said.

That view places Warner in the same camp with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), the most prominent Democrat weighing a 2008 run. To date, Clinton has refused to propose or advocate for a specific withdrawal date. Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh (D) has also avoided calls for a date-certain pullout, although both he and Clinton backed recently supported a Democratic-sponsored resolution calling for President Bush to provide a timetable for drawing down the U.S. presence in Iraq.

The other camp is represented by Sens. John Kerry (D-Mass.) and Russ Feingold (D-Wisc.). Feingold was the first prominent Democrat to advocate a drop-dead deadline for troops to leave Iraq, and Kerry, the party's 2004 nominee, followed with his own plan earlier this fall.

Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards (D) has called his vote for the 2002 resolution authorizing military action against Iraq a "mistake" and advocated a less specific withdrawal to begin after the Dec. 15 Iraqi elections. Delaware Sen. Joe Biden, too, has not urged a specific date for withdrawal but said he expects all 150,000 American troops to be out of the country by the start of 2007....

http://blogs.washingtonpost.com/thefix/
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Clarkansas Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. No mention of Clark?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. There rarely is in the MSM n/t
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. They are only interested in Foreign Policy "Experts", don't you see?
Clark's position is too complex to boil down into a phrase anyway, that is if you don't know how to spell "change the course".

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Don't be surprised.....
As Wes Clark is routinely left off the lists....Nothing new!

Here, Sign Clark's petition to hold the GOP controlling Congress accountable for oversight over our President. Sign the same petition to say you support an investigation into HOW WE GOT INTO IRAQ!

It's left up to us.....to FIGHT the real fight! The politicians are too busy postering for the political limelight!http://www.dccc.org/get_involved/petitions/clarkiraq/index.pl
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. They aren't interested in real facts in stories like this. Their purpose
is to further muddy any Dem plan so the perception of vagueness stays with the American people while they figure out a way to keep the Bushboy propped up.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Typical!!!
"It's all name recognition now" -- and they'll let us know which names deserve to be recognized. :eyes:
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. ok, so from your list I would go for Feingold or Edwards
Kerry had his chance, and blew it

I imagine that Gore and Clark will enter the race, so we need to see where they stand




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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. But, but, but.....
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 07:37 PM by FrenchieCat
Edwards Co-Sponsored the IRW.....

and was a strong supporter of that War

"As a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, I firmly believe that the issue of Iraq is not about politics. It's about national security.
snip
I believe that Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime represents a clear threat to the United States, to our allies, to our interests around the world, and to the values of freedom and democracy we hold dear."

Statement on the floor of the senate 9/12/02



"Congress must also make clear that any actions against Iraq are part of a broader strategy to strengthen American security in the Middle East.
snip
Iraq is a grave and growing threat. Hussein has proven his willingness to act irrationally and brutally against his neighbors and against his own people.

Iraq's destructive capacity has the potential to throw the entire Middle East into chaos, and it poses a mortal threat to our vital ally, Israel. Thousands of terrorist operatives around the world would pay anything to get their hands on Saddam Hussein's arsenal and would stop at nothing to use it against us. America must act, and Congress must make clear to Hussein that he faces a united nation."
http://www.usembassy.it/file2002_09/alia/a2091910.htm
John Edwards Op Ed in the WAPO dated 9/17/02


Even way later, when it was clear there were no WMDs and that the intelligence had been "cooked", Edwards stuck to his guns -- Now that the polls recently started to show that Americans by a majority no longer supported the War, only then did Edwards apologize!


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3131295

Let me ask but the war, because I know these are all students and a lot of guys the age of these students are fighting over there and cleaning up over there, and they're doing the occupation.

Were we right to go to this war alone, basically without the Europeans behind us? Was that something we had to do?

EDWARDS: I think that we were right to go. I think we were right to go to the United Nations. I think we couldn't let those who could veto in the Security Council hold us hostage.

And I think Saddam Hussein, being gone is good. Good for the American people, good for the security of that region of the world, and good for the Iraqi people.

MATTHEWS: If you think the decision, which was made by the president, when basically he saw the French weren't with us and the Germans and the Russians weren't with us, was he right to say, "We're going anyway"?

EDWARDS: I stand behind my support of that, yes.

MATTHEWS: You believe in that?

EDWARDS: Yes.


MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about-Since you did support the resolution and you did support that ultimate solution to go into combat and to take over that government and occupy that country. Do you think that you, as a United States Senator, got the straight story from the Bush administration on this war? On the need for the war? Did you get the straight story?

EDWARDS: Well, the first thing I should say is I take responsibility for my vote. Period. And I did what I did based upon a belief, Chris, that Saddam Hussein's potential for getting nuclear capability was what created the threat. That was always the focus of my concern. Still is the focus of my concern.

So did I get misled? No. I didn't get misled.

MATTHEWS: Did you get an honest reading on the intelligence?

EDWARDS: But now we're getting to the second part of your question.

I think we have to get to the bottom of this. I think there's clear inconsistency between what's been found in Iraq and what we were told.

And as you know, I serve on the Senate Intelligence Committee. So it wasn't just the Bush administration. I sat in meeting after meeting after meeting where we were told about the presence of weapons of mass destruction. There is clearly a disconnect between what we were told and what, in fact, we found there.

MATTHEWS: If you knew last October when you had to cast an aye or nay vote for this war, that we would be unable to find weapons of mass destruction after all these months there, would you still have supported the war?

EDWARDS: It wouldn't change my views. I said before, I think that the threat here was a unique threat. It was Saddam Hussein, the potential for Saddam getting nuclear weapons, given his history and the fact that he started the war before.


MATTHEWS: Do you feel now that you have evidence in your hands that he was on the verge of getting nuclear weapons?

EDWARDS: No, I wouldn't go that far.

MATTHES: What would you say?

EDWARDS: What I would say is there's a decade long pattern of an effort to get nuclear capability, from the former Soviet Union, trying to get access to scientists...

MATTHEWS: What about Africa?

EDWARDS: ... trying to get-No. I don't think so. At least not from the evidence.

MATTHEWS: Were you misled by the president in the State of the Union address on the argument that Saddam Hussein was trying get uranium from Niger?

EDWARDS: I guess the answer to that is no.


I did not put a lot of stock in that.

MATTHEWS: But you didn't believe-But you weren't misled?

EDWARDS: No, I was not misled because I didn't put a lot of stock in to it begin with.


As I said before, I think what happened here is, for over a decade, there is strong, powerful evidence, which I still believe is true, that Saddam Hussein had been trying to get nuclear capability. Either from North Korea, from the former Soviet Union, getting access to scientists, trying to get access to raw fissile material. I don't-that I don't have any question about.

MATTHEWS: The United States has had a long history of nonintervention, of basically taking the "don't tread on me and if you don't we'll leave you alone." We broke with that tradition for Iraq. What is your standard for breaking with tradition of nonintervention?

EDWARDS: When somebody like Saddam Hussein presents a direct threat to the security of the American people and, in this case, the security of a region of the world that I think is critical.

MATTHEWS: A direct threat to us. What was it? Just to get that down. What is it? Knowing everything you know now, what was the direct threat this guy posed to us here in America?

EDWARDS: You didn't get let me finish. There were two pieces to that. I said both a direct threat to us and a direct threat to a region of the world that is incredibly dangerous.

And I think that with Saddam Hussein, they've got nuclear capability, it would have changed the dynamic in that part of the world entirely. And as a result, would have created a threat to the American people. So that's what I think the threat was.


MATTHEWS: Do you think he ever posed a direct threat...

EDWARDS: Can I say something? You sort of-implicit in that question was that the assumption that I believe that the Bush policy on preemptive strike is correct. I don't.

I don't think we need a new doctrine. I think that we can always act to protect the safety and security of the American people. And I have said repeatedly that Bush-President Bush's approach to foreign policy in general is extraordinarily bad. Dangerous for the American people. He doesn't work with others. He doesn't build coalitions. We were promised...

MATTHEWS: Wait, wait.

EDWARDS: Let me finish. We were promised a coalition on the ground right now. And we were promised a plan for what would occur at this point in this campaign in Iraq. Well, neither of those things have occurred. And as a result, we're seeing what's happening to our young men and women.

MATTHEWS: OK. I just want to get one thing straight so that we know how you would have been different in president if you had been in office the last four years as president. Would you have gone to Afghanistan?

EDWARDS: I would.

MATTHEWS: Would you have gone to Iraq?

EDWARDS: I would have gone to Iraq. I don't think I would have approached it the way this president did.
I don't think-See I think what happened, if you remember back historically, remember I had an up or down vote. I stand behind it. Don't misunderstand me.

MATTHEWS: Right.


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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. except he has now renounced those positions
don't get me wrong, he isn't my first choice, but at least he admitted his vote was a mistake and that is better than others



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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. Zogby: White House and media ignore thoughtful withdrawal plans
Edited on Tue Nov-29-05 07:29 PM by blm
(Funny how the media never gives any details and lumps Dems together to serve their greater purpose - to obscure those real details as if they don't exist. That benefits the White House.)


Noted by Zogby:

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/23309

Somewhere in the middle of this muddle are positions developed independently by two Senators: Republican Chuck Hagel, a possible 2008 Presidential aspirant, and Democrat John Kerry, the Democrat’s 2004 Presidential candidate. Both offer the same criticism of the Administration’s conduct of the war to date and argue that power alone without a sound political strategy will not ensure victory. Both then provide, in some detail, a plan to create a regional security arrangement to promote security and stability and enhance economic and political progress in Iraq and its environs. Building on the recently convened Arab League summit of Iraqi parties and Iraq’s neighbors, both call for the permanent establishment of a regional security umbrella conference that, in addition to Iraq’s parties and neighbors, also brings NATO, the World Bank, Russia, and relevant UN institutions to the table. Such a standing conference would be charged not only with assisting political reconciliation, but “helping to build and coordinate government institutions” and providing “improved security assistance programs” to Iraq’s fledgling military.

While this approach could be considered a thoughtful alternative, it has largely been ignored. The media failed to provide any significant coverage to Senator Hagel’s Council on Foreign Relations speech. Senator Kerry’s speech did receive one day’s coverage, but it focused more on his failure to articulate a position during his Presidential bid than on the substance of his proposal. Because the proposals offered by the two Senators can’t be reduced to a slogan and because they have been ignored by the White House, the press has largely ignored them as well.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-05 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. We are just SO fucking screwed I want to cry
I am just ashamed of my party's 'leadership'...bunch of bloviating, pontificating, querrelous, driveling pantywaists.

so one of THESE fuckwads is gonna keep us in IraqNam after 2008.

they can eat shit.
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