Why do some people on DU support illegal immigration even when...

...some of the illegal immigrants are less than stellar? Why does someone support total and complete illegal immigration? Shouldn't we be trying to attract law abiding citizens, and discouraging those who want to wreck havok in our communities?

For myself, I want controls so I don't end up with an MS-13 drug dealer next door. Yet, whenever I put a criteria to illegal immigration, I get jumped on by other DUers telling me how wrong I am.

Well, most people don't want American criminals living next door. Why is it different to object to criminal illegals?

Why is it discrimination if I'd like to see some controls on immigration so we know we're getting law abiding citizens?

And I know from personal experience that the poor and disabled in this country are fighting to find any kind of assistance at all. Yet some people on DU think it's OK for those very limited assistance dollars to go to illegal immigrants. Why? Do US citizens who are struggling not matter - only illegals do?

Where is the responsibility of Mexico in caring for illegal immigrants? Why is it only our tax dollars that should be spent to care for their needs? If an illegal has problems here, shouldn't Mexico be paying the bill? Are we responsible for Mexico's failure to care for her citizens?

Sometimes it seems as if some on DU are willing to give more rights to illegal immigrants from Mexico than they are US citizens. Isn't that discrimination, too? What's the justification for this? Some US Citizens are just as poor and have suffered just as much as the illegal immigrants who are defended here, yet the needs of US citizens are scoffed at. Why?

I guess I'm just trying to sort out why people have the political views they have regarding illegal immigration. My own views tend to ebb and flow based on my experiences, and I'm continuing to learn as I go along. I doubt I'll ever personally feel that opening the borders to anybody who wants to cross with no controls whatsoever is a good idea. But I am willing to listen to the views of others as long as they have rational reasoning behind why it should be so.

So that's why I'm asking WHY you feel as you do on the immigration issue.

:shrug:

for years.

I don't think most people know how to solve it. No one wants to talk about the economic benefits of ignoring illegal Corporate hiring of people willing to work for crap wages.

The Media spoon-fed us "labor" bad - "white collar" good. This helped Americans turn a blind eye to substandard wages for illegals and the off-shoring of labor.

Now we face a potential crisis for ALL working class people, and no one knows how to solve it.

"Guest Worker" would bring in many more. Focusing on border enforcement is nonsense. As long as jobs are offered, they will come.
If employers are fined for every illegal they hire, employers will stop hiring illegals, and the flood across the border will become a trickle.

If they cracked down on the employers the problems of illegal immigration would all but disappear.

I completely agree. Posting more border patrol agents on the border won't do anything. It's just going through the motions. The only way to solve the problem is to prosecute employers consistently, aggessively, and publically.

There would be no immigration problem if employers didn't illegally hire undocumented workers.

Nobody listened to her either.

:cry:

Sinola Cowboys, bruce springsteen

Miguel came from a small town in northern Mexico.
He came north with his brother Louis to California three years ago
They crossed at the river levee, when Louis was just sixteen
And found work together in the fields of the San Joaquin

They left their homes and family
Their father said, "My sons one thing you will learn,
for everything the north gives, it exacts a price in return."
They worked side by side in the orchards
From morning till the day was through
Doing the work the hueros wouldn't do.

Word was out some men in from Sinaloa were looking for some hands
Well, deep in Fresno county there was a deserted chicken ranch
And there in a small tin shack on the edge of a ravine
Miguel and Louis stood cooking methamphetamine

You could spend a year in the orchards
Or make half as much in one ten hour shift
Working for the men from Sinaloa
But if you slipped the hydriodic acid
Could burn right through your skin
They'd leave you spittin' up blood in the desert
If you breathed those fumes in

It was early one winter evening as Miguel stood watch outside
When the shack exploded, lighting up the valley night
Miguel carried Louis' body over his shoulder down a swale
To the creekside and there in the tall grass, Louis Rosales died
Miguel lifted Louis' body into his truck and then he drove
To where the morning sunlight fell on a eucalyptus grove
There in the dirt he dug up ten-thousand dollars. all that they'd saved
Kissed his brothers lips and placed him in his grave

Less than stellar?

Why do we support DEMOCRACY, when it has failed
to produce a perfect carefree utopia?

Why do I support "Human Rights",
when most HUMANS make mistakes now and then?

Why do I keep eating,
when I get a nasty brown potato chip every so often?

Why do I LOVE this website,
when I keep reading posts that....

Well, I digress.
My family was here a century before that whole
"Declaration of Independence" thing...

And weren't NOBODY invited us.
We were among the first "illegal immigrants"
in North America.
But since we were really GOOD at GENOCIDE,
we got to write the history books.

You wanna complain about "illegal immigration"?
You think that your 'job market' is under attack by ILLEGALS?

Go find a NATIVE NORTH AMERICAN and
spend a day complaining about those nasty illegal Mexicans.

Go ahead,
I DARE you.

Sincerely,
dick

...better? And just because William Brewster was an illegal immigrant, we should continue to allow illegal immigration indefinately?

That's like saying because the robber barons killed people while building the railroads, we should continue to let big business kill us off in the workplace.

I thought we were progressives.

Should you choose to respond to my posts in the FUTURE,
please refrain from lame attempts to connect me to
musty, cobwebbed "talking points" from the 1830s.

I, (as a REAL progressive), will NEVER "give up"
on the idea that WE can make things BETTER.

I used some SARCASM to rebut your premise...
and you DODGED and OBFUSCATED like your ass was on fire.

To be FAIR, I do admit that many people have a knee-jerk
reaction to 'sarcasm' these days;
Indeed, many uneducated types regard its very usage as an ATTACK,
rather than the time-tested form of
"refutation of fallacious prepositions via overstated agreement"
which it actually is.

So, perhaps you simply didn't UNDERSTAND (or enjoy)
the different ways I destroyed the basic premise
of your post.

Would you be more comfortable if I refuted your premise
in a different fashion?

Please don't feel afraid to ask-
I spent a full TEN years of my life at a rural "public school";
I feel fully qualified to provide your OP
with a "Severe Bitch-Slapping" (as you crazy kids say)
in ANY and ALL of the classic styles of debate.

And, after LEARNING about all that 2000 years of formalized wordplay,
I currently make my living as an ARTIST.
Would it be easier for you to understand how you are WRONG
if I drew a picture for you?
Nothing fancy, I promise!
Stick figures, and monosyllabic dialogue, I SWEAR!

Not elite, just elitism. Thinking your are better or smarter.

The use of sarcasm is a tool used by people who want to end a topic without discussion. What purpose does this serve except to silence people who disagree with you? Sounds like a Bush tactic to me.

You were supporting a lack of action by saying we have always had a lack of action. I merely pointed this out through use of a similar example.

Why do you feel there should be no controls on illegal immigration?

Perhaps if you actually state the rationale for your views I can respond appropriately.

If you advance your views on the issue rather than resorting to sarcasm we might have an intelligent discussion on the matter that informs us both, rather than engaging in cutting word play (which merely reflects poorly on you and illustrates your lack of respect for the rights of others). Reasonable people can disagree on an issue and still discuss it like reasonable people.

My first thought when I woke up
was to "Alert" on my own post there,
and ask the mods to delete the entire
stupid thing.

But since it already has 2 reasonable, well-considered responses,
I suppose it's best to leave it there
as part of the thread.

Waits for flames.

It's too bad this can't be discussed without them, but I'm not going there again.

Granted, you do say that SOME are less than stellar.

However, in your remaining message you seem to imply that they are ALL less than stellat i.e. they're all a bunch of dangerous criminals.

p.s. I am not for unckecked illegal immigration. This is a real problem that needs a rational debate and solution. However, when a whole population of people seem to be stigmatized in these debates(as it always seems to be), then I am firmly on the side of the downtrodden.

...own prejudice about the issue.

What I said is that people object to ANY controls for ANY reason (and perhaps my words to express that weren't the best). And I want to know why.

Here in Delaware, a local town councilman decided he wanted an ordinance to track illegal immigrants living in this town. The law would allow police officers to randomly ask people for their papers and fine landlords for providing homes for illegals. There was a high population of immigrants (illegal & not) because of the Mushroom industry in a nearby town that uses immigrants to pick the Mushrooms.

The local white folks complained it was the illegals that were committing the crimes in the city, dealing the drugs and basically bringing their small community down.

But then it came out that what these folks were perceiving wasn't really the truth. See one thing about an illegal immigrant - if they aren't in the country legally then they probably aren't going to do anything that could possibly attract attention to them that could cause then to be sent packing home. Some reports came out that showed it wasn't the illegals dealing the drugs and the grafitti was being done by local kids from some of the better families in the neighborhood. Basically the town had problems and instead of addressing them they decided to blame the one group of people who really couldn't do anything to fight back about it.

So the biggest misconception held by many folks is that the illegals are creating all the crime and problem in this country. That isn't the truth. Sure, their existance is affecting healthcare costs but if you're in a country illegally the last thing you're going to do is something that'll get you caught and sent back to Mexico.

Do you have any links to this story? I'm interested in reading about it.

There's tons of information about what undocumented workers suffer just to work, just to try to feed their families.

They can't report assault. They can't report false imprisonment. They can't reported being stiffed by an employer or being turned away at an ER. They can't report rape.

Google is your friend, my friend.

support the taking of Tx, NM, Az from Mexico and the U$ wars against Mexico. Marine song: Halls of Moctezuma (the Marines killed child cadets, Veracruz over 3000 women killed by Naval bombing, big casualities for that time), etc. The sending of Marines over the border to squash Mexican-Indian miners striking for their lives against American Smelting and Refining! Why did retired U$ Generals own electrical company until it was nationalized, why did the U$ not allow Mexico to create their own engine production industry etc.
WHY HAS THE U$ RENIGED ON ITS SOCIAL SECURITY TO BRACEROS WHO HELPED AND WERE ASKED TO COME DURING WWII?
MEXICO DECLARED WAR ON JAPAN BEFORE WE DID BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T NEED CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL! THEY APPROVE THE REQUEST BY THE US TO SEND MEN TO SERVE IN THE US ARMY SINCE MEXICO DID NOT HAVE MUCH OF ONE (ALTHOUGH A SMALL GROUP OF PLANES AND MEN SERVED HONORABLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST) AND
WHY ARE MEXICANS BEING LURED INTO SERVING IN IRAQ AND BEING KILLED!
and WHY ARE AMERICAN CORPORATIONS STILL PROFITING FROM MEXICAN LABOR and
DO YOU LIKE CHEAP FOOD FROM CALIFORNIA!

...that are swept under the carpet. Mexico has it's own dirty secrets that we could talk about. Nations do a lot of dirty things in the name of self interest.

There are a lot of people who would like to turn back the clock on land settlements that were made before we were ever born. This would be massively destabilizing to every nation in the world. Every country has a history of conquest that could redraw it's borders if that conquest were reversed. Mexico itself was a conquerer nation, and part of the lands that were conquered by Spain through Mexico were the states you referred to - Texas, New Mexico and Arizona. So if they were to revert back to their origination, they would go to the native indians resident in those states prior to their conquest, not to Mexico.

Were Mexican citizens exploited by the United States in the past? Yes. Were American citizens exploited by the United States in the past? Yes. We're in the same boat. Mexican citizens weren't targeted for exploitation, they just shared the curse with the rest of us. If you want to read about veteran exploitation, read about what Hoover did to the veterans who marched on Washington in the Depression.

Does that mean we should open the borders and allow free illegal immigration to anyone who wants to cross over? IMO, no. Mexico doesn't allow me to go live there just because I want to. They have controls and criteria that I have to meet in order to live there. Why is the US the only one who is supposed to have open borders?

Labor has been exploited since the beginning of time. It's not unique to illegal immigrants from Mexico. Before illegal immigrants slaved in the fields, it was share croppers. Before that, slaves. Do I think that's right? No. Do I have any control over it other than my vote? No. Do I think it's an excuse for continued illegal immigration? No.

WRT who is being lured to Iraq for killing, a whole lot more American citizens are sharing that fate than Mexican citizens. And last I checked, regardless of the incentives and BS spouted by recruiters, enlistment in the military is still voluntary.

WRT labor in the fields, I happen to know many very white families who work the vegetable fields in Texas, so cheap foods are not solely the product of illegal Mexican labor, regardless of what the mass media would have you believe. The white farm hands are even more plentiful up north. I can also show you plenty of farms here in Utah where the field workers are white students working to support themselves while going to school, and not illegal immigrants.

I'm interested in what you have to say regarding the issue, but I'd like some rational discourse.

As a American/Mexican I take offense to many of the post made by my fellow DU's on this subject. Have you or anybody else been to Mexico lately. Do you know how many jobs illegal Americans take away from Mexicans in Mexico? Yes I wrote illegal American workers that have taken jobs from the Mexicans in Mexico. Instead of shitting on these people weather they are Mexicans or Americans we should just make the companies stop hiring these people.

Bruce Springsteen- Devils and Dust.
www.brucespringsteen.net


Each year many die crossing the deserts, mountains, and rivers of our southern border in search of a better life. Here I follow the journey backwards, from the body at the river bottom, to the man walking across the desert towards the banks of the Rio Grande.

For two days the river keeps you down
Then you rise to the light without a sound
Past the playgrounds and empty switching yards
The turtles eat the skin from your eyes, so they lay open to the stars

Your clothes give way to the current and river stone
'Till every trace of who you ever were is gone
And the things of the earth they make their claim
That the things of heaven may do the same
Goodbye, my darling, for your love I give God thanks,
Meet me on the Matamoros
Meet me on the Matamoros
Meet me on the Matamoros banks

Over rivers of stone and ancient ocean beds
I walk on sandals of twine and tire tread
My pockets full of dust, my mouth filled with cool stone
The pale moon opens the earth to its bones
I long, my darling, for your kiss, for your sweet love I give God thanks
The touch of your loving fingertips
Meet me on the Matamoros
Meet me on the Matamoros
Meet me on the Matamoros banks

Your sweet memory comes on the evenin' wind
I sleep and dream of holding you in my arms again
The lights of Brownsville, across the river shine
A shout rings out and into the silty red river I dive
I long, my darling, for your kiss, for your sweet love I give God thanks
A touch of your loving fingertips
Meet me on the Matamoros
Meet me on the Matamoros
Meet me on the Matamoros banks

Meet me on the Matamoros
Meet me on the Matamoros
Meet me on the Matamoros banks

is another bullshit repuke wedge issue.

A rational discussion would reveal that most of the folks who come here "illegally" contribute more to the public coffers than they take out. They pay taxes but don't get the benefits.

They're mainly very hard-working people who are exploited by the capitalist class to do their dirty work.

As they have always been - even when they came from Germany, Ireland and Poland.

It's MUCH more likely that the "criminal next door" your so worried about was home-grown.

And all those murders of women over the border of Texas in Mexico should just drift over into Texas? If they commit crimes in Mexico, we should just let them cross over to the US to escape the authorities? When the Mexican citizen shot a law enforcement officer in LA and ran across the border to Mexico, we should just let him cross back over to the US somewhere else?

You're assuming that illegals have a lower criminal population than our own citizens, and even if they are criminals, we should look the other way.

Why?

Why aren't you saying screen the immigrants, allow in the "mainly hardworking people" legally and keep out the criminals?

did I say anything about murderers escaping justice by hopping over borders?

That's a "straw man", a discussion killer.

Where did I say I assumed that "illegals" have a lower crime rate than our own citizens? That's not even relevent.

I AM saying that I would be very suprised if they weren't mainly hard working people. If there were a flood of crooks, murderers and criminals streaming across the border they'd show up in the arrest statistics -- they don't in any appreciable numbers so I have to assume that it's not happening...

...anything, and regardless of what you assume, it has no basis in fact. As far as I can tell, we're both assuming things about the illegal immigrant population, so let's just start talking facts.

Here's some links I pulled from the web regarding the immigration issue:

Houston Chronicle, not a bastion of illegal immigration opposition - http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3484795.html

Conservative slant: http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20040426-011701-7078r.htm

More:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html
http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy/dunphy200401220906.asp
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju85287.000/hju85287_0.HTM
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/EffOnMinorities/MHReport.html
http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-05-646R
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/08/22/news/californian/18_53_328_21_04.txt
http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/INS/e9608/i9608p2.htm
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7997408
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200010\NAT20001009a.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20050126-1636-mexico-us-travelwarning.html
http://tinyurl.com/arjn6
http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson061305.html
http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050619/NEWS01/506190324
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/mexico/toc.html

The Washington Times is owned by Rev. Moon. Are you sure you want to reference his paper?

Bill

a right-wing rag, the CIS -- another anti-immigrant org.

The Doj article -- talking about the ineffectiveness of INS efforts to deport undocumented workers.

The Dallas Daily Texan article -- more phony "drug war" bullshit.

msnbc -- more violence at the border. Big whoop -- more border agents (the bush/leiberman solution) more violence. DUH!

San Diego -- More phony "drug war" BS. DECRIMANALIZE DRUGS and you won't see these articles any more. Takes the profit out...

GAO article: of the 10million undocumented they tracked the 55,000 or so who were getting arrested... Ok, proves my point...


Etc. Etc.



What's your point? You can find any bogus arguments on the internet to prove anything. It's like the Bible -- you can misconstrue it any way you wish...

This country is made up of immigrants and always has been.

"A rational discussion would reveal that most of the folks who come here "illegally" contribute more to the public coffers than they take out. They pay taxes but don't get the benefits."

I was wondering if you could show me how to support this notion in a "rational discussion." Every study I've ever seen or heard of indicates the opposite. Most illegals work under the table, and paying sales tax doesn't mean they're "paying taxes" like everyone else.

On the other hand, they use health care (often without paying; many southern hospitals have closed because of the strain illegals put on the system, and 60 hospitals in California alone closed between 1993 and 2003 because of unpaid services used by illegals), often in the form of emergency room care as primary health care. They use public education. A large number of illegals are incarcerated for crimes that were pretty harmful to society, and we have to pay to feed and house them. And what about the illegals who slip over the border just for free prenatal care or to have a broken leg set and then go back to Mexico when they've stuck us with the tab? I see no reason why taxpayers here legally should have to shoulder that burden.

I am a construction worker who has had to resort to temp admin work because I can't get hired where I live. Guess why. I've heard a lot about how illegals "deserve" social services and I can't agree at all; if I break into someone's house I do not "deserve" a sandwich. If immigration laws suck, change them, but don't ignore them.

Seeing the various opinions on this issue on this board, I don't know what the "good Democrat" position on illegal aliens is (I can't even tell from listening to Democrats on the Hill), but if being a good Democrat is supporting illegal immigration, then I guess can't be called a good Democrat.

Any sorry, for the rant; could you please point me to any source that shows that illegals contribute more than they take?

so right to ask for solid sources.

Have you read goodhue's posts down thread?

Also, I don't know where you work. In Los Angeles, the unions that made common cause with undocumented workers find that that puts pressure on management and working conditions improve. It's counterintuitive but not really if you ask who benefits from the situation as it exists today.

Arlington, 22203, to be specific. My neighbor is a nurse at a local hospital and tells me how much tax money is spent on illegals, and I seethe - especially since some of that is my tax money and the only policy I can afford is for my wife. I am completely uninsured.

As for goodhue's posts, if you're referring to the private property rights analogy, I see the point but don't consider it relevant. True, crossing the border isn't a private property violation, but if I break into someone's house, I don't get free education on how to be a better robber and the homeowner isn't forced to pay for my health care if I can't or won't pay for it myself. The homeowner analogy isn't perfect, but it does work for me.

Sorry - I admit that because of my own situation I am horribly biased, but the fact remains that I'd have an easier time financially right now by being an illegal alien and working under the table. Seeing people support illegals just because THEY are poor while ignoring poor taxpaying Americans here legally who have to pay for illegals' expenses sets me off like nobody's business.

I would like to thank you, though, for a friendly and civilized post. I still don't have a real feel for the board's stance as a whole on this issue, so I appreciate you being a true adult instead of a flamethrower - and for that matter, I acknowledge that you're calmer and more adult about expessing your views on this than I am. Thanks. :)

:)

I get really frustrated around this issue, too. My mom's family came here legally from El Salvador and growing up in this part of California, I have seen the down side for undocumented workers in spades. One lady we knew was robbed, beaten and raped and she felt she couldn't go to law enforcement because she'd just be deported -- or worse, held in the county jail for months, while her mom and kids in Mexico went hungry and wondered if she was dead. I've had probably between 50-100 experiences like that. (On edit: Yes, she did have the baby and no, she didn't use her son to leverage citizenship. She can't go home with the baby and she's illegal here.)

The deal is, 'far as I can see it, under the present system, ALL workers suffer. You know who makes out on this deal and it sure isn't you and it isn't my friend Sarca.

I think I should post a thread -- something like, "Illegal immigration, a Fact Sheet" -- where every assertion has to be backed up with 2 good sources. We all might learn something, maybe something about who our natural allies are or aren't.

It sure would be better than what we're doing now -- reacting to fear and speaking out of frustration or worry. Not to sway folks one way or another, but just to see what facts we can dig up.

I'm up for it. You in?

:hi:

has people refrain from accusing me or others of "reacting to fear" without real basis. In my own case I'll admit to frustration, and because of the difficulties I have had finding steady work with benefits I'll admit to worry (for my family), but just as I like the idea of your thread which requires two good sources, I'd also like a caveat that says "if you're going to use cliches such as 'fear,' back that up too.

Note that I am not accusing you of doing that to me, but as I look at the thread, I do see a lot of emotion - but not one poster who I would accuse of "reacting to fear." Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine. I'm with you on all other aspects of what you propose.

the spin is spewed. (Shaking head.)

In the morning, let's try it. I'm in CA, so for you it will be noonish. I'll pm you when I post it. Maybe we can get somewhere. Can't hurt to try.

:)

that hired some who were illegal. The immigrants who worked were polite, hard working individuals who wouldn't whisper a word even if they were hurt. Because they're illegal, they try to keep under the radar which means no hospitals, usually spending less public money. Also, with a bogus SSN, they usually wind up helping someone else's social security benefit. See they pay social security usually under a bogus card--so they pay without reaping any of the benefits. I could tell you a story about a young Mexican man (he was barely a man, more a boy) who was hired to herd sheep up in the mountains. The sadistic SOB who hired him, instead of paying him, shot him and left him to die. Apparently, him and his girlfriend laughed while doing it. He dragged himself to an inspection station and was saved, but the guy who did the shooting got a hand slap. My next door neighbor worked for the school system for immigrant children-he was involved in helping the young man get back home. The one thing the young man said "I would have understood if he didn't have the money to pay me, why did he shoot me?" There are some in this country that have a mindset of exploiting and treating people who are not like them less than dogs. When you whip up people's fears and prejudices, people do terrible things.

This is one of my most sensitive issues...

who come here are the criminals who are involved in drugs, murder, kidnappings, etc. I would say more than 95 percent of illegal immigrants crossing the border come here to make an honest living, even if they are breaking the law by crossing the border.

It is these immigrants I support. Of course I am biased because I am the son of a Colombian immigrant and I grew up in a city of immigrants (Miami) in an immigrant neighborhood.

I also spent eight years living in the SW USA (New Mexico, Arizona and California) working as a newspaper reporter, where I wrote significantly about illegal immigration because I was one of the few reporters who was fluent in Spanish.

Contrary to what you believe, most illegal immigrants do not receive assistance from the US government. They won't apply because they fear deportation. Most actually pay more into the system than they take out because their employers retain a portion for taxes and social security that they never get back. They are also consumers so they pay sales taxes.

And believe it or not, illegal immigration is actually good for the economy. During the 1990s, the economic boom that Phoenix went through was largely possible because of all the illegal immigrants who were swarming into the state. Because of all the cheap labor they provided when building all the houses during that decade, many people were enticed into moving to Phoenix from other parts of the country because of the low cost of housing. This lead to an increase in IT companies moving to Phoenix. Call it trickle-up economics.

Another factor you need to consider is that during the early 1970s, there was a sharp decline in the national birth rate compared to the baby boom years. Employers in the construction industry were having trouble finding workers. If the jobs weren't there in the first place, the immigrants would not have come.

And call me an idealist, but I've seen plenty of cases where illegal immigrants came to this country only to see their children graduate college and join the working force -- just like what happened with previous immigration groups over the last 200 years.

Of course, I know exactly what you're going to say, I've heard it so many times over the years: "Yes, but our ancesters did not enter the country illegally."

Well, if you want to get technical, our American forefathers swiped Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado and California from Mexico in 1848. So perhaps this is Montezuma's Revenge.

...from. But why no controls at all? Why should they come in illegally without screening first?

WRT Mexico getting Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado and California taken from them - you're forgetting that Mexico was actually a client state of Spain (which is why people from Mexico speak Spanish), and the states you mention were actually conquered by Mexico from the Native Americans. Why object to one conquerer, but not the other?

So if they were a "client state" of Spain in 1848, whatever that means, then the United States was a client state of England.

...in question, Mexico was an arm of the Spanish Government. Or are you trying to imply that Mexico gained control of those states after independence? It sounds to me like you're trying to paint the US guilty and Mexico innocent, when in reality they were both guilty. And yes, prior to the War of Independence, the US was a client state of England.

Having said that, I see no reason why we should object to the US aquisition of states as empiracism, while at the same time ignoring the empiracism of the interim holder of the states, Mexico. If you're defending native rights, you should be advocating the return of these states to their respective Native American tribes (wherever they might reside at this late date). Or perhaps more accurately, whichever predecessor inhabitant might have been located there, since recent genetic and other evidence points to inhabitants prior to present Native Americans who came from Europe, Japan, and elsewhere. Clovis is now in doubt, and Native Americans may themselves have been conquerers.

This country has been swarmed with conquerers since the beginning of time. And it still hasn't changed. It's always been the land of opportunity. And I think our country benefits from immigration, whether it be legal or illegal, as long as they become law-abiding citizens once they enter the country.

Geezus.

but illegal immigration is nothing I can even remotely tolerate, and what really gets me is when the best defense for illegals someone comes up with is "but they come from poverty!" I did, too, but can't find a job in my actual profession (construction) with which to support my family because of illegals - and getting a job with a benefit package is out of the question.

If someone can't be bothered to follow immigration law, I don't think they should get any social services at all, including health care and education. If there really is more opportunity here, then following the most basic rule of immigration law - "register, please" - isn't too much to ask.

"During the 1990s, the economic boom that Phoenix went through was largely possible because of all the illegal immigrants who were swarming into the state. Because of all the cheap labor they provided when building all the houses during that decade, many people were enticed into moving to Phoenix from other parts of the country because of the low cost of housing. This lead to an increase in IT companies moving to Phoenix. Call it trickle-up economics."

How nice for Phoenix. Obviously, cheap labor is good. Too bad our ancestors did away with slavery. Those folks worked real cheap, you betcha.

Of course, construction work was just another of those jobs U.S. citizens didn't want to do.

Every job held by an illegal, is a job not held by a U.S. citizen.

"Another factor you need to consider is that during the early 1970s, there was a sharp decline in the national birth rate compared to the baby boom years. Employers in the construction industry were having trouble finding workers. If the jobs weren't there in the first place, the immigrants would not have come."

To simplify for you, there were no American workers. And in the Phoenix roofing industry, when they try to hire American workers, they don't last. The work is too physical demanding under horrible conditions.

is that now you have these people who are pouring their blood, sweat, and tears into doing work for a level of pay that is so low that the US has rejected it as socially unjust.

You want grapes and heads of cabbage for a cheap price? Fine, but just remember that the true price of low prices is exploitation of others for your own gain. This isn't just Wal-Mart anymore.

I would love to see Americans get paid a fair wage, but I don't think that has happened since at least the seventies.

The argument I made had to do what happened in Phoenix because I worked for the newspaper there for four years, so I've done a lot of research on it through my articles.

The irony in Phoenix was that those same people who relocated there in the 1990s from the midwest because of cheap housing and sunny weather were also the same people who constantly bitched about illegal immigration. I didn't hear anybody complaining about property values in Phoenix when I was there. In fact, that's all they bragged about.

The problem I have with this issue is that nobody talks about the companies hiring these workers for a slave wage. Nobody even bitches about the growing gap between those salaries of average Americans and those at the top. We just accept it as the American, capitalist way.

Or people prefer to point their fingers at the illegal immigrants, as if it were all their fault.

As far as illegal immigration goes, I would say the most pragmatic answer at this point is to not only bust up companies that knowingly exploit illegal immigrants but also tighten up border control, port security, and airport security. To me, it seems to make sense to address both the supply and demand side, not just the demand.

Why do they feel that they have to risk their lives illegally crossing the border, just to make a living (on slave wages, with crowded, substandard homes, unable to speak the language, etc.)?

Vicente Fox and company don't want to bother with these people. It might cost money--and, like his compadre Junior, he would rather keep the money in the hands of himself and his rich friends. And as an added bonus of (with Junior's complicity) encouraging these people to come and work in the U.S., Fox/Mexico get BILLIONS of dollars entering Mexico via Western Union moneygrams.

and their archaic notions on birth control.

notoriously against all birth control except "rhythm method", I don't think they are to blame for the explosion of illegal immigration we're currently seeing.

"The Mexican birthrate dropped from 3.4 children per female in 1990 to 2.4 children per female in 2000, said Leo Chavez, professor of anthropology at the University of California at Irvine. Meanwhile, the birthrate in the United States is 2.1 children per female, Chavez said.

The decline of the birthrate began 30 years ago, when the Mexican government debuted a family planning program. Its aim was to reduce the population growth through advertisements and promotions, which proclaimed smaller families are better."

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/01/mexican_migrati.php

Besides, evangelicals have been taking away people from the Catholics in Latin America, for some time now. (Admittedly, it is unlikely that the evangelicals would cause any stabilization of population growth, since they apparently have yet to figure out what causes babies.)

There are others to be blamed... but, but, don't even get me started....

Becuase Vicente Fox can't run his own country properly?

he and his rich friends can have even more money?

That's what * wants for us, too. Wonder whose borders WE'LL have to sneak across when he's finally reduced us to starving serfs. (Poor Canada...)

:crazy:

he and his rich friends can have even more money?

Still not a reason why we must babysit his citizens.

American--thanks to the anti-bankruptcy bill passed by the republican-run congress, people who drown in credit card debt now have no place to run. Did those people get into that mess all because they have "champagne tastes with beer incomes"? No. The credit card companies have been literally bombarding them with offers of loans, for more than a decade now. Even if our education system had not failed them, to the extent that they had no idea what they were getting into, the fact is that you have to be a lawyer to figure out many of the ever-changing terms of those credit card "agreements" (or "contracts of adhesion", as they are more accurately called.)

You think I'm kidding, or crazy, when I say that we will essentially be serfs? (I don't have big credit card debt, but I'm one of the lucky ones.) With * already sending people to die in Iraq so he can keep his huge profits on his investments? With hurricane victims literally roaming the landscape because their insurance companies won't pay them, and they are without any funds? With the republican-controlled congress' continual reduction of legal remedies for individuals?

I agree, we don't need to be supporting the landless Mexicans. We're going to have enough trouble with the landless Americans.

government that first priority is to help its people.

that illegal immigration is perfectly okay? Your chances of being deported without actually committing a crime after the illegal border crossing can't be any more than your chances of being hit by lightning.

Illegals come here and send tons of money home. It isn't in Mexico's interest to help their own when they can help their less skilled, less employable citizens, the ones more likely to require social assistance, to come here and let the American taxpayer worry about it.

In the interests of full disclosure: if I sound bitter towards illegal immigration, it's because I am. As I indicated elsewhere in the thread, because of the massive number of illegals where I live I can't find work in my chosen profession (construction), and I can't afford to move. I'm really, really tired of our government picking and choosing which laws to enforce just to make life easier for megabillion dollar corporations.

if your handle of "formerrepublican" means what it says, you'll have to learn how to de-program yourself of the repuke notion of a "zero sum game".

I doubt that anyone on this site would argue for diminishing assistance for citizens in favor of undocumented immigrants. I think most here would argue that if it weren't for the repuke and conservative dem's greed ALL who need assistance would be able to obtain it.

The primary magnet for the undocumented are the businesses and corporations that hire them and exploit them. I don't think Mexico has much control over them.

"I doubt I'll ever personally feel that opening the borders to anybody who wants to cross with no controls whatsoever is a good idea."

As long as the U.S. is hogging the lion's share of the goodies, that ain't gonna happen.

"As long as the U.S. is hogging the lion's share of the goodies, that ain't gonna happen."

Unfortunately, it's not the U.S. that's hogging the resources, it's those in power. I even know quite a few of the more well off who give generously to those less fortunate, but they're under-represented in the party in power. In addition, Mexico actually has a lot of wealth, but like here, it's distributed badly.

We have some power to change how the US does things, but it's the Mexican citizens themselves who have to change how things are done in Mexico. Until they do, they will continue to lack opportunity in their home country.

Mexican citizens are no different than US citizens. The US had no magic that made us wealthy and everyone else poor. The failure is not a failure of our respective countries' citizens, but of their leaders. Mexico has some work to do to improve opportunities for her citizens that we can't do for them. And if we don't watch out, we're going to find ourselves in the same boat.

We've lost the right to it.

right now.

The purpose of borders is not to keep out the "undesirables," that's always been and will be a futile task (and an undesirable mission carry out). I see borders more as a social contract amongst the people who live inside of it: It says that when you are within this imaginary line, you will fall under these laws and be a part of this government, and we have pooled our resources to serve the people within this boundary. South of this border has their own laws and set of resources. If somebody chooses to follow a new set of rules, or seek out better resources, it's pretty darn anti-democratic to prevent that. For what? Fear that "undesirables" will do what? Take our resources? Guess what. We have more resources than Mexico. It is a crime to let our neighbors suffer. If we really want to control immigration, then we really really need to stop trying to exploit the resources of other nations. But we won't...so we keep on finding new and exciting ways to pillage the resources of other societies to feed our need to consume, then turn around and blame the huddled masses for wanting a piece of "our" pie?!

Europe is not much better about that. The disparity of wealth is between the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Weeks of race riots in France over immigration policy and general tolerance of other cultures and ethnicities. They don't deserve Lady Liberty, either.

Come to think of it, borders are altogether bullshit, if you really want to be forward thinking about it. They falsely divide people, and at the same time they falsely group together very different cultures who probably want the freedom to govern themselves. There's unrest and a collective identity crisis because of our attempts to classify the human race into categories that don't exist in nature - not to mention the control of natural resources that don't belong to anyone...but do belong to everyone.

Open borders haven't worked in any nation where they've been tried. If you have an example that proves otherwise, please present it for discussion.

Turning everyone in the world into millionaires is a great idealistic idea to end world poverty, but putting it into practice is a real killer (literally, since it would spark endless wars as an attempt is made to reallocate resources).

so, what you're saying is technically true. do you have any examples in history I've been missing.

how's closing off the borders been working out for everybody?

edit: notice how I address your points?

We don't WANT the huddled masses any more. We need to stop saying that we do.

We need to worry about those people too. If something isn't done to get a better grip on illegal immigration, I think our economy is going to be a disaster. I'm not sure how long it will take, but it will be too soon.

We cannot sustain our wealth and successfully help the needy at the same time. There simply aren't enough resources.

The world economy already is a disaster, and it really doesn't matter where these people are - our country or theirs - we are simply unwilling to do what we need to do to improve it

From the beginning of his inauguration speech:

"The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life."

Nearly 45 years later, and we don't have the resources? Why? Have they been wasted on luxuries while others starved? Have they been used up in wars over years and years (akin to Orwell's neverending war ideas perhaps)? Have they been slowly declining as the world population increases? Has our new technology not found better ways to serve the people and instead been wasted on killing them?

I wouldn't be surprised, but no - I think we still have the resources. We must make strides fast though... and, sadly, it's not looking like that's going to happen.

They're not exotic enough.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5495316

But yeah, if we don't get a grib on illegal immigration, our economy is screwed! We gotta get that taken care of so our poor don't starve!

:eyes:

working 3 jobs a day and living with 2 other families in a shitty apartment. it's the American way. It's how most of our ancestors got here.

Their kids become doctors, lawyers, teachers and policemen in the next generation

Lest we forget who we are . . .

I hope we never do.

My Grandfather was a wetback.

Came over from Canada and stole some 'merrucan's job.

That's why my republican father voted against the anti-immigrant ballot measures in the 90's in California.

now I've got a broadband connection. Hot damn!

And fortunately, he always voted for dems. :)

Plenty of folks came here illegally, plenty of folks came here before 'legal' was anything other than a medical inspection at ellis island. My Grandfather came here from Ireland around 1900 and I am fairly certain that he didn't bother with the legalities as he stole the family cow to pay for his passage.

Such as my great-great grandfather who came here in 1851 from Germany. I don't think they were discussing "legal vs. illegal" in those days. And we won't go into the relatives who arrived here even before that, say sometime in the late 18th century.

Just a bit of perspective.

Heard a radical environmentalist say recently that he was okay with closing the borders to Mexican people if we also close the borders to Mexican resources. International relations is all about protecting wealth but not human beings.

There is no right answer on immigration IMO, and the wealthy interests that run this country are happy to keep it that way. Whether it's exploitive guest worker programs or exploitive NAFTA/CAFTA agreements, it's all about having cheap labor.

I used to buy into the dream that NAFTA etc. would raise the living standards of Mexicans and then we could all be one big happy family. In the last 5 years or so I've read enough books to understand now that the final effect hasn't been good, since the multinationals swarm through Mexico like locusts on their way to another and another and yet another country. Supposedly the biggest exporter of bananas in Mexico is now the biggest exporter of 'illegal immigrants'. Our immigration problem may well be the direct result of corporate rape-and-pillage economics of our neighbors to the south.

The funny thing is that a living wage in India is still significantly cheaper than a minimum wage in the United States. If we forced corporations to simply pay their employees India a living wage, they would STILL profit from outsourcing to the developing world. Corporations, are of course, too damn greedy to do that. Hell, we can't even force corporations to pay a living wage in the United States. Guess forcing them to do it in the developing world is really unrealistic.

You seem to think that Americans are somehow more important then others. I don't agree with that at all. People are people and the vast majority of immigrants , both legal and undocumented, are hard working , honorable people trying to make a better life for their family. Willing to give more rights to Mexicans then to US citizens? That reeks of racism. BTW we do not 'give rights' to anyone. Rights belong to all human beings , they granted NOT by the government nor by those of us here at DU.



Your post is filled with distortions and misconceptions. Reading it here , has saddened me.

...own prejudice.

We're talking about the actions of government, which by it's vary nature is nation specific.

I'm not advocating that any citizen be allowed to take action against an illegal immigrant. What I am saying is that it's the responsibility of our government to service the needs of our citizens first. By the same token, it's the responsibility of the Mexican government to address the needs of her citizens first. How quick do you think Mexico would be to feed me, clothe me, provide health care, and education for my children if I were to enter the country illegally? How do you think the citizens of Mexico would respond if I were to receive such aid?

You're confusing human rights with citizen rights. They're two separate issues.

And just so we understand each other, a law in Utah was recently overturned by anti-immigration activists. The law allowed illegal aliens to attend college at in-state tuition rates (taxpayer subsidized) with shorter residency requirements than US citizens from other states. So yes, illegal immigrants are attaining rights in our country that US citizens themselves do not have.

I know. He formed the The United Farm Workers and got them a decent wage. Where is that union now?

It has a lot to do with minimum wage. The illegal immigrant work for five dollars a day in most cases. The greedy wealthy loves the illegal immigrant worker. That's why the minimum was has not increased in years. Then junior tells the nation the illegal immigrant worker is just doing jobs that American don't want.

http://www.ufw.org/cecstory.htm

immigration problem will get my vote. Never thought anything would make me even think of voting Republican - but this would be it.

Okay, now I'm seriously interested in why it would be that important for you that you would even vote Republican. Spill the beans!

cite names, and cite where they posted. Until you do that, this is just flamebait and stupidity run amok. Those of us that oppose building a USELESS wall between countries are not FOR illegal immigration for crying out loud!!!!!

time honored process....these "illegal aliens" sneak in across the border, and know that what they are doing is illegal.

I DO NOT support having, or keeping them in this country.

It is tme to focus on the employers!

If Europe had been south of the border instead of across the Atlantic, they would have been sneaking across the border instead of embarking on a cross-country voyage into Ellis Island.

that is the only way a person from..... i don't know...... myanmar....
differs from my grandparents

I don't know if I "support" illegal immigration or not.

What I really don't support are immigration laws set up so that we have an "illegal" population; a population that, in my experience, benefits the U.S.. They give more than they take. The fact that they are working "illegally" allows employers to pay them sub-standard wages. The key word here is "work." They work. They aren't coming over the border to suck up social services.

I was fortunate to live in multi-ethnic communities in S. CA for most of my life. I never asked my spanish-speaking neighbors if they were legal, illegal, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation. I never wanted to know. I can share one "illegal" story, though. A man and woman crossed the border about 16 years ago with a new-born baby. They took a job on a ranch, managing cattle. They lived in a little single-wide trailer on the ranch, and had some more kids. All the kids were born in the U.S. except for the first; the oldest boy was "illegal." The kids helped work on the ranch, went to school, and did odd jobs for extra cash after school and on weekends. All of that extra cash went to take care of the family. That's how I knew this boy; he did yard work at a ranch I spent time at. In his sophmore year in high school, he began losing weight. In addition to doing yardwork, he'd arranged tutoring from another ranch hand, to make sure he was getting good grades in all his classes, so I saw quite a bit of him. At the beginning of his jr. year in high school, his parents took him to the local county emergency center; he'd begun to black out. They thought he had a tumor of some sort and recommended a specialist. His parents did not take him to the specialist. They didn't have the money, and they were afraid of being "outed" as illegals. I don't know how this drama ended; it was happening as I moved out of state.

Really, I support people. Social and economic justice, universal not-for-profit healthcare as a right, universal preschool - college or trade school education as a right, human rights, civil liberties...these things should be for everyone, regardless of borders.

... I just acknowledge that:

1) it is pervasive and has far reaching effects economically, probably good effects for the average person - yet paradoxically bad because ot taking American's jobs

2) there is going to be a lot of blather about this, but absolutely nothing of substance (i.e. to actually limit it) will happen. NOTHING, because cheap labor Republicans don't want to do anything real

3) in the event I am wrong in number 2, it won't matter because there is nothing the government can really AFFORD to do (as in funding for border patrol, INS, etc) that will make a significant dent in it

So, all that being said, I think this is just another god, guns, gays issue that is mostly a hot-button feel-bad cypher that Dems better learn how to rebut.

think about that one.

policy that does not undercut the American worker by having an endless supply of cheap labor. There are Americans who would like to be paid a fair wage. If work is such that a fair wage can't be paid, maybe we had rethink our economy.

this line that Americans "wont do certain jobs" is horseshit. We'll be your gardeners, your nannies, your convenience store clerks, your taxi drivers - just give a decent wage with a shot at some freaking healhtcare. It's also a National Security issue. The opportunity is there for a tuff on immigration Democrat and as usual the party will blow it.

We don't need immigration. If the corporate big boys would give a decent wage, and corporate big boys would get prison sentences everytime they hired illegals you would see immigrants at the border trying to get out. Everybody talks about there are certain jobs that Americans workers just wouldn't do is a load fof crap. If the wages were good people would be lined up to take jobs. Especially if they had a family.

You just assume that everyone who objects to racist anti-immigrant screeds wants to open the borders to all.

The Mexican people rose against an unjust government in 1910. The conflict morphed into a civil war ending around 1920. About a million Mexicans died & a huge number crossed the Border. Do you really want to encourage another war?

Our assistance dollars are limited because of insane tax cuts, corporate welfare and an illegal war. Most undocumented workers are unable to receive assistance. And they do pay taxes. As you know, Texas has no Income Tax. So Sales Tax & Property Tax make up the difference--yes, Virginia, landlords pass tax increases on to their tenants. If some of my tax money goes to care for sick babies & to educate children--I don't give a flaming damn about their citizenship.

If you've got a dope dealer next door, call the cops. But I doubt that's a problem in your neighborhood.

They are following human nature, the desire to better ones self. Since it is agreed that the primary cause of illegal immigration is jobs, why not remove this incentive. Go to the source, crack down on the employers. There are fewer of them and enforcement is a more attainable goal.

Believe me, they are the neighbors from hell. If I could prove that they were illegal, I would have them deported in a heartbeat.

hell. Now if I could find away to have her deported back to Sweden, I would in a heartbeat. :sarcasm:

its bad for everyone involved. To simplify it to the bogus point that since some people have less than we do, that we need to let them all in is absurd. In the end, they will just end up poor here, but with no rights. Far better to punish employer who hire illegal immigrants and work on improving the economic conditions of the rest of the world.

Undocumented Immigrants are VERY GOOD for business. They boost profits for the plutocrats and help keep wages down for everyone else.

That's why the repukes and "conservative" Dems aren't going to do anything constructive about immigration policy and practice.

nor, I imagine, do the people who have jobs providing services to them.

this is beyond offensive.

Undesirables? Sounds like measure taken during the third Reich...poor people travel to America to better their lives. The legality of their arrival or stay is obviously less important to them than the opportunity to live. These are poor people damn it!

system and are here in violation of US law. I don't know what you mean by an illegal human.

There is a win/win solution here somewhere. Open boarders is not a solution I think because of the costs of our social services is not supported by taxes. In Santa Maria, CA the city cannot support the illegal immigrant population and there is no federal or state money to help the city.

You need to use a little rationality. Along with your open boarders idea, can you offer a solution to the costs to local and state governments? A practical solution. Not tax the wealthy to the hilt.

Many industries need the immigrant labor. The agriculture industry here in CA depends on the undocumented immigrants. The price of food would increase dramatically if labor costs go up or if mechanization were the only economical way to harvest crops.

I would like to see undocumented immigrants here be put in a guest worker program. Their kids could still attend school and receive medical treatment but the Mexican government should have to pay for it. Also their children born here would not be automatic US Citizens. The guest workers could apply for citizenship after some number of years here with no criminal record.

that I would love to pursue. Truth is...many industries depend on undocumented immigrants. No matter what we "believe", that is a fact. I like your idea about a guest worker program without automatic citizenship. Of course, in reality, people will go where they can find opportunity and the best of them will do whatever is necessary.

How can we begin to have a realistic conversation about this?

IMHO

and find a stranger sitting on your couch, drinking beer and eating potato chips, will you consider him a person who is where he is illegally?

Or will you welcome him into your home on the grounds that there are no illegal people?

I mean, come on--the whole "there are no illegal people" thing is a cute little catchphrase that some people bleat obsessively here, but I think we all know that it is sometimes illegal for people to be in certain places.

this is a humanitarian crisis. These people are trying to make a better life for themselves, and guess what: if there was someone sitting on my porch....I'd invite them in.

They would also like to make better lives for themselves, but their wages will remain in the basement so long as the bossman has an infinite supply of cheap, easily exploited labor. It never ceases to amaze me how their interests are always forgotten, even by alleged "progressives."

Dickens called this sort of thing "telescopic philanthropy."

illegal aliens. In the Wash DC area construction market and landscaping industry, well paid labor intensive jobs are advertised in the paper. NO ONE but hispanic men come out to try and get hired. I know that many don't use legitimate soc #'s. These guys walk, take buses from miles away...they are NOT taking jobs from the poor, they are the only ones taking the jobs period. These jobs have starting rates of $10 to $15 dollars per hour, which is much higher than your average fast food worker or retail clerks income. Even the ones getting paid under the table earn at least ten..tax free.
Once they learn a bit of english and expertise they're rapidly moved up. They live in small apartments together as room mates to send funds back to support their poor families. You can yell and shout...but in many areas NO ONE else will take these jobs...not even OUR poor.
It's sort of like that jerry seinfeld line...it's not that there's a lack of jobs, it's just that people are easily disgusted. Americans don't want to do manual labor. I am always trying to find teens as apprentices, so they can learn trade basics, which can put them through college...like I did. I dug ditches, and dug holes for large tree planting operations some thirty plus years ago. Maybe in other parts of the country..but here on the east coast, you just can't find white or black kids interested.

Which is not similarly present in migration of undocumented workers.

Criminal trespassers infringe on property rights regardless of status of documentation. Citizens, permanent residents, documented and undocumented migrants alike are all "illegal" in this regard. Status as undocumented is not an element to criminal trespass.

So when I come home from work and find a burglar or other unwelcome guest in my home, their presence is "illegal" without regard to their immigration status. Depending on the circumstances, I may indeed be more sympathetic if I happen to learn of undocumented status. I'm not sure how I would learn that though, since Minneapolis cops rightly aren't allowed inquire into such status.

that in another war of aggression, thousands of families who owned land on the border were thrown out of their homes. They tended to dwindle and die, but apparently, they didn't die out completely.

A mixed outcome, for some.

Most illegal immigrants aren't drug dealers. They have their problems, but once they get here, they are generally law abiding (except on the sneaking in part)

They DON'T WANT to draw any attention. So, they work several jobs and save up money.

That said, I don't agree with illegal immigration. But we have to target the businesses that hire illegals to stem the tide.

Patrolling the borders will do little to solve this issue.

Generally speaking, I think illegal immigration is probably a net benefit to the US. Cheap labor keeps prices low, immigrants pay sales, property and other taxes and yet don't qualify for social services. I do understand that their children are educated in public schools and they do burden the healthcare system if they arrive for emergency treatment, but I still think we come out ahead. I'm certainly willing to consider stats that say otherwise....

If we raised and ENFORCED the minimum wage in the US, that is, if we told employers, "Sure, Miguel can pick apples....for $8/hour," then employers would no longer fancy illegals so much, and perhaps a few of us Americanos would consider the jobs. That's my two-bit theory, anyway.

I believe in a reciprocal open border policy with our immediate neighbors, no quotas for Mexico or Canada, and then work on standardizing humane benefits and working conditions such that there's no opportunity for multinationals to abuse Mexican workers. The trade-off is that apples here will be $4/lb and undershirts $12 apiece. But everyone will be able to support themselves without being abused. We may just have to forego the i-pod and x-box when they are updated and re-sold to us for the umpteenth time in one decade. Is living with last year's x-box *so* terrible?

Although, my passion for pupusas has obviously overwhelmed my rational mind.

Welcome to Du.

maybe that's why.

because that's what part of the whole NAFTA sales deal was--that by creating economic incentives for American businesses to relocate in Mexico, that the Mexican workers would be paid reasonable wages, which would help keep the costs of these good down in the domestic American market.

This whole illegal immigration thing is being exacerbated by those American companies who not only don't pay much above slave wages, but pollute the Mexican towns they're in with impunity.

Who wants to live in a polluted shithole making slave wages anyway? Nobody does.

You get the American corporations to take a reduced profit and pay better wages to Mexicans working in Mexico (even if they're still not quite as high as US wages) and get them to clean up their mess--I think you'll see a whole lot less illegal immigration.

but by destroying the Mexican indigenous family farmers by flooding the country with cheap corn, etc. (subsidized by the U.S. Govt) after NAFTA was signed by that great liberal, Bill Clinton.

This corporate-capitalist system is the real villain, not the poor folks (and I mean US Too) who get screwed by it...

Think little-c capitalism locally and Socialism nationally and internationally. That's the way it's got to go!

who own the whole joint and whose bidding Fox exists to do. Are they in any way responsible for that country's misery, or is it just the fault of Bill Clinton?

I think that NAFTA was good in theory but, as usual, the greedy pigs took advantage of some of the provisions (like most us all feared they would). If anything was Clinton's fault, per se, with NAFTA, it's that he was unrealistic about human capacity for selfish greed, and proper, firm checks and controls weren't a real part of the deal.

I don't know what Americans can do to pressure Mexican citizens to share the wealth and be community-oriented, but I do believe that we can pressure the American corporations.

I think most of us would agree that immigration should be regulated, and that the status quo just isn't working. The right wing is split on the issue because some of them benefit from the cheap labor that illegal immigration provides them with, while the others want tighter regulation on immigration. Democrats and progressives can benefit from this if we provide effective solutions for this issue. For example, here is Democratic candidate Steve Young's innovative plan for immigration:
http://www.steveyoungforcongress.com/immigration.php

Different than anything else that I've heard proposed, but it just might work!

...than you? Regardless of whether some Mexicans are "less than stellar" or not? Bet you never even considered that possibility did you?

Don

Illegal immigrants have done great harm in this country.

They have flooded our communities without regard to long term consequences. Our daughters are not safe on some streets, for pete's sake. They have made our jobs obsolete. They don't observe our way of life, butcher our language and break our laws. They go on crime sprees and aren't held responsible for the damage they do.

They have no respect for our history -- if they ever learn it!

I think they should get back on those ships and get the hell out of here. :evilgrin:

I could nominate this post for the front page.

The illegal immigrants build our houses, pick our crops, clean up after us, and bring vibrant culture to our dying cities...

While the legal immigrants fly planes into buildings, reduce our universities to technical schools, and bring "skills" to our country like how to squeeze us for our last nickel.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/gen/11713pub20000908.html

* * *

The situation today differs little from that of years past. Fanned by anti-immigrant extremists, and based largely on myths about immigration's effects on the nation's economy, a virulent anti-immigrant movement has been seeking to curtail the rights of many individuals living in the United States.

* * *

It is true that the Constitution does not give foreigners the right to enter the U.S. But once here, it protects them from discrimination based on race and national origin and from arbitrary treatment by the government.

* * *

The Immigrants' Rights Project of the ACLU was established in 1985 to challenge unconstitutional laws and practices, and to counter the myths upon which many of these laws are based. The Project has become one of the nation's leading advocates for the rights of immigrants, refugees and non-citizens.

Myth: U.S. Borders are Out of Control

Fact: Much of the anti-immigrant sentiment in this country is based on the unfounded fear that illegal immigrants are pouring over our borders in unprecedented numbers. In fact, the vast majority of immigrants in our country have entered legally under the strict standards imposed by the Immigration and Nationality Act. The Act allows approximately 800,000 people to settle here each year as permanent residents including about 480,000 who are admitted to reunite with their spouses, children, parents and/or siblings; about 140,000 who are admitted to fill jobs for which the U.S. Department of Labor has determined no American workers are available; about 110,000 refugees who have proven their claims of political or religious persecution in their homelands; and about 55,000 who are admitted under a "diversity" lottery, begun in 1990, that mainly benefits young European and African immigrants.

It is impossible to determine with any precision how many immigrants take up residence in the U.S. each year without permission, but there is now evidence that the numbers used by anti -immigrant organizations and politicians have been greatly exaggerated. During his 1996 presidential bid, for example, Patrick Buchanan claimed that the undocumented Mexican population was growing by a million or more a year. But according to the 1997 report issued by the Binational Study on Migration and commissioned by the U.S. and Mexican governments, the annual average is closer to 105,000 Ð only one-tenth of Buchanan's figure. The total number of people from all countries who entered illegally or overstayed their visas in 1996 was estimated by the INS to be 275,000, again a fraction of Buchanan's claim, and less than one-tenth of one percent of the U.S. population.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/gen/11713pub20000908.html

Myth: Immigrants take jobs away from American Workers

Fact: Most economic experts who have studied the relationship between immigration and U.S. employment report that immigrants create more jobs than they fill. They do this by forming new businesses, raising the productivity of already established businesses, investing capital and spending dollars on consumer goods. A 1994 study by Ohio University researchers, for example, found "no statistically meaningful relationship between immigration and unemployment.... If there is any correlation, it would appear to be negative: higher immigration is associated with lower unemployment." Studies by the Rand Corporation, the Council of Economic Advisors, the National Research Council and the Urban Institute all came to the conclusion that immigrants do not have a negative effect on the earnings and the employment opportunities of native-born Americans.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/gen/11713pub20000908.html

Myth: Immigrants Drain our Social Services

Fact: The Urban Institute has concluded that "immigrants actually generate significantly more in taxes paid than they cost in services." This is because undocumented workers, despite their ineligibility for most federal benefits, frequently have Social Security and income taxes withheld from their paychecks. In fact, immigrants pay substantially more in taxes every year than they receive in welfare benefits.

As a result, one commentator has pointed out, "a senior citizen on Social Security who lives in rural Kentucky is indirectly being subsidized by an immigrant who washes dishes in a chic restaurant in Santa Monica." Another commentator recently proposed that the best solution to the Social Security crisis caused by the aging of the baby boomers is to encourage immigration in order to create "instant adults" who will begin working immediately and paying into the Social Security system.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/gen/11713pub20000908.html

:)

http://www.alipac.us/article459.html

Those of us paying ever increasing premiums for health care for our own families are subsidizing people who don't even want to make the effort to become legal citizens. Who can blame them, though.

Of course, the Repubs who hire them and pay dick wages are mostly to blame but dems who care about health care and making sure we all have living wages in the USA need to care about this as well!

this is Democratic Underground.com -- Not right-wing wing-nut central!

This site is bullshit -- total freeper BS!

Get a grip, lwbaby...

tentatively to hold on to my own health coverage.

Health care provided to illegals is causing hospitals all over the country but particularly in the SW to go under which helps no one. Face it you can't force a hospital to stay open! Please offer sites that contradict the one I offered.

My family is solidly middle class. We simply can't afford to carry the health care costs of everyone who anchors here on our backs and it's wrong to demand that we do so when it means that our coverage that we pay for continues to diminish as a result.

I'm a dem, through and through. I'm also drowning in a sea of co-pays that keep rising to cover the costs of those who don't pay. My husband was laid off a year ago and just reattached to a job that pays 1/4 of what he used to earn. He's 57 and if you know of a good engineering position that wants to hire someone his age I'd love to hear from you!!!!!

I did sah (we have 4 kids and daycare costs were prohibitive) but am now working again in our school cafeteria just to make some money and avoid daycare $$. We have one with asthma and another who is autistic.

We work our butts off to take care of ourselves and recognize that our tax $$ need to be spread out to the greater good and have no problem with that. But come on, how far are we supposed to stretch ourselves to cover those who don't want to go through the process to become legal?

What about those of us who play by the rules?

Along with their politician buddies. But they'd LOVE to have you place the blame elsewhere.

Undocumented workers usually don't pay Income Tax. If so, they'll never get anything back. But they pay Sales Tax & Property Tax (even renters pay indirectly.) We have no State Income Tax here in Texas, so the other taxes are quite high.

Houston has a world-class Medical Center & a couple of damn good County Hospitals. We don't exactly have a bunch of hospitals going under. Health costs keep rising--but they have been since we had Bush as Governor.

who use a bare fraction of the limited health care available to us all..

Think SINGLE PAYER UNIVERSAL COVERAGE. Blame those who should be blamed -- the pukes and conservative dems who won't allow single payer to come to pass.

The Clinton's tried (a bad try since they were trying to pander to their base, that is, the insurance corporations who bankrolled his campaign) but the DEMOCRAT Congress shot them down!!!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE!

Don't fall for the old Jim Crow rascist trap of blaming your brothers and sisters (all fellow sufferers for the sake of corporate profits and the very rich) instead of following the money to the real reasons for your pain and difficulties...and mine -- I'm UN-INSURED again!

So if I got sick, I'd be another one of those sponging off of your insurance premium. I play by the rules and the rules say I can't afford Health Care.

"Those of us paying ever increasing premiums for health care for our own families are subsidizing people who don't even want to make the effort to become legal citizens."

and post it on a liberal discussion board!

We're trying to have a serious talk about immgrants invading Murka here!

Beautiful!

Have a zero-tolerance confiscation of all assets of any person or company found with one in there employ. I bet it would have a greater effect than any fences or detention facility.

:eyes:

Or treating them like game, catch and release. The corporate and private interests that use and abuse them should be the only ones punished. They are only doing what most humans do, trying to survive and hopefully better themselves and their families. Border guards and detention centers are both cruel and a waste of assets. The illegals are the ones who hire them to cheat the system and line their own pockets.

Sorry, I didn't copy that.

Openly anyway.

Legalize it - don't criticize it

There might be an overall larger problem with the strain on the infrastructure unless they are paid a living wage and the taxes raised support the system.

Many proposals would have guest workers pay a registration fee. Steve Young for Congress for example proposes raising $90 billion by registering undocumented workers. Here is his proposal . . .

http://www.steveyoungforcongress.com/issues.php

Immigration - Southern California faces serious economic issues caused by undocumented immigration.

"Catcher in the Rye" type immigration policies are destined to failure. The INS is under-funded and vigilante groups on the borders threaten the rule of law in our country. We are learning by sad experience that America cannot solve the immigration crisis at the border because border solutions merely address symptoms.

I have a real solution to the "immigration problem" that is a business approach. It does not demonize immigrants, is self-funding, and benefits America.

Immigrants pay on average $3000 each to smugglers. Why not have the immigrants pay America the $3000 and create a system under which we can monitor who is coming into the country and what they are doing? I propose that the government establish ICE centers at the borders. Those wishing to enter the country will pay the $3000 to ICE (US Immigration, Customs and Enforcement Agency). ICE will take the immigrant's photograph, fingerprints, and administer tuberculosis and other health tests. The immigrants must tell us where they are going to live and where they plan on working. With that information, and the payment, the immigrant can enter the country. Every six months the immigrant must renew the application with updated information and the payment of an additional $500.00. Some sources estimate 30 million undocumented aliens are in the US. At $3000 each, we have a potential revenue source of $90 billion. I estimate that ICE can reduce the border patrol by 2/3 and redirect its efforts to drug interdiction and security to prevent terrorist entry to the US. All of this has a direct financial benefit to the US government in a time of rising budget deficits.

Employers who cheat their competitors by hiring undocumented workers fuel the immigration problem. I propose a "green card bounty" program to halt employer cheating. Any undocumented worker who gives ICE a paycheck showing the worker worked within the last month will receive a "green card bounty." ICE will not have to spend precious resources investigating cheating employers. The immigrants will bring the evidence to ICE to get an expedited green card. Armed with this proof, and front page publicity for prosecutions of cheating business owners, jobs for undocumented workers outside my registration system will dry up immediately. This will level the playing field for honest employers.

It is time for America to adopt my direct solution. It benefits America, eliminates the cheaters, generates $90 billion for the treasury, and allows ICE to focus on security rather than playing hide and seek in the southern deserts. Is it time for a change, or more of the same?

My son-in-law works with a "guest worker". It is an IT job. This fellow goes home for supper late in the day when all the other workers leave and then comes back and works late into the evening because without his job he cannot stay in this country. They are salaried, so he makes no more money for the extra work performed. This proposal solves some problems but we need an overall solution that includes protection for workers. That is highly unlikely and the potential for abuse is not removed when the only interset is helping the businesses and not the individuals. I also believe taking all assets, including business and personal, of cheaters is the most fair and effective way to stop that practice.

I'm pretty familiar with H-1B visa holders through my spouse's family (they are East Indians and live all over the world; those here in the US consist of either citizens, permanent residents or H-1B visa holders). Certainly some H-1B visa holders work harder because their presence in US depends on the job. I fail to see how this counsels against guest worker program as proposed by candidate Steve Young.

By all means, we need significant labor reform to address lack of worker rights and to curtail corporate abusers. I believe, all people have a right to:

- Have a job.
- Have a safe workplace.
- Get decent wages and benefits.
- Organize and be represented.
- Grieve about working conditions.
- Strike.
- Get fair compensation for injuries on the job.
- Sue if injured by negligent employers.
- Have secure pension and retirement benefits.
- Participate in the political process.

My only point being that there is not enough protection for the workers, which you are apparently aware of. I just feel strongly that any bill should be a complete package. If done properly it would be good for all involved and go a long way toward resolution of the problem. The present system does not work and Bush's speech calling for more detention facilities is ridiculous but to be expected from a man who, as Governor, rewarded political cronies with the privatization of jails. His other major concern is that his corporate backers maintain a source of exploited, cheap labor. To me Young's plan does not address those concerns and the green card bounty does not prevent cash payments to workers. It may be a start but taken alone it only provides a source of labor.

In some regions, Mexicans may be the majority of the "illegals," but not in the DC burbs. The Hispanic illegals in this area are from poorer nations further south.

I am not an authority on immigration issues, but if I am not mistaken, the MS-13 gang is from El Salvador. If I am wrong, please, someone, set the record straight. There have been several MS-13 "incidents" in this area. I am afraid of them and I don't know who "them" is.

Besides the gang issue, my problems with illegals are:
1. Unbalancing the immigration quotas the government has set to allow for optimum growth.
2. Employers paying the workers under the table (This messes Social Security solvency).
3. Overcrowding in some homes, (Running a "hotel" out of your home will bring down the home values for your neighbors).
4. A lack of assimilation (I want to get to know my neighbors and learn their culture, I don't want my neighborhood to be a colony of people from and of another country. If you come to live in my neighborhood, be neighborly, don't make the people who are already here feel like outsiders. We will welcome you if you will also welcome us. Don't create a "we vs. they" environment.)

1. Yes, "MS-13" are a Salvadoran gang. "MS" stands for "Mara Savatrucha," which means something like "crazy Salvadoran dude." The 13 signifies their affiliation with the Mexican Mafia, "la eme," designated 13 because m is the 13th letter.

2. You are in absolutely no danger from any street gang if you don't live in a gang neighborhood and are not involved in gang crime. By gang neighborhood I mean the majority of males on your street would be gang-involved.

3. Illegal immigrants mostly pay into social security, although they'll never see the benefits.

4. The US government knows jack shit about how to manage growth, as evinced by the decay of almost all our urban cores.

5. Overcrowding is a result of immigration? How about the rent being too damned high? Just count yourself lucky if you don't have to time-share a bed. No one wants to be crowded up, everyone wants a little space to sleep in peace or get a little, well, you know.

6. I'm pissed off that you won't assimilate to my west coast culture. Actually, I'm not, but we're as different from each other as you are from the Latinos in many ways. You can either live with diversity or die fighting it, those are the only choices. I've had white neighbors who are pretty surly and unwelcoming, too.

THEN THEY AREN'T STAYING HOME AND FIXING THEIR COUNTRIES.

But not only were "they" here before you were, but they/we think exactly the same about you.

lol

1. There are no living-wage jobs in their countries, especially not in the rural villages where they come from.

2. If they try to organize for better wages, the death squads will come after them (Yes, even now, after all those Central American countries supposedly have democracy).

3. Farmers south of the border have been driven out of business by American agribusiness, thanks to NAFTA.

violent crime and illegal immigration? Seems most crimes committed in the U.S. are done by it's own citizens. There is no evidence that illegal immigration is a manifestation of illegal tendencies in general. YOur argument is seriously flawed.

I don't disagree that immigration policy needs to fixed. But I don't think eliminating illegal immigration will do anything to fix the crime problem.

I grew up in a very heavily Mexican-American town in Southern California. There were Mexican gangs at school, but there were white and black gangs also.

I do not recognize the US-Mexico border, an abstract invention based on force, as a legitimate obstacle to the movement of workers seeking to improve their lives.

How many times has drawing a line in the sand made things better?

firstly, it is illegal
secondly, our economy can not support them anymore
thirdly, the argument that they do jobs Americans don't want is crap....pay enough and Americans will do the work

my other groceries, my landscaping projects, my home improvment projects? That seems masochistic to me. If the illegals are doing
dirty jobs at low wages, where is the crime? Why should I support
artificially high union wages and lower my standard of living?

And you know what, the FIRST ILLEGALS CAME ON THE MAYFLOWER. And
look at how they improved this country. I say more power to those
who come here to work their ass off for meager wages.

Now those who come here simply to commit crimes and sponge off the
social net, I have no sympathy for them. But they are a distinct
minority of illegals.

You could live it up big time then.

I am talking about FREEDOM to work at whatever the
market is willing to pay for your labor. I do not
denigrate somebody working low skilled, dirty work for
low wages. There is a lot more dignity in that than
living of handouts.

Paying illegals less because they have no choice but to work for less or be sent home is really extortion. If this country weren't ruled by fascist scum that we be prosecutable also.

Be careful answering that.

or be living in the country built by the pilgrims and their
descendants and other immigrants? Why so many people from
every country in the world have immigrated to the USA but very
very very few Americans have emigrated? Not even those who
promised to leave if Chimpy became prez have left.

Lets face it, USA must be a great country else why is everyone
trying to get in and almost no one leaving? Thank you pilgrims!!!

Yes. Any day of the week.

The pilgrims were basically the equivalent of our religious fundamentalists today. They were puritans, and they came here to start a 'Kingdom of God'. From the Native Americans they not only took land, they took lives.

The founding fathers came 100+ years later, and were nothing like the pilgrims at all, especially considering that whole church and state deal that is in reality what has enabled our government to survive so long.




By the way, with everyone's fascination with borderlines, divisions, and restrictions, it's much harder to 'leave' than people seem to think sometimes.

The Spanish "civilized" the area first. Although they converted the natives quite roughly, they did not exterminate them with the efficiency of the English colonists.

Early "Texians" were mostly descended from poor Scots Irish who'd settled in the South and the Tejano influence remained strong, even while the Tejanos were oppressed. The Texas Revolution brought slavery to the state, but the dreadful institution was soon ended by the War. The freed African-Americans gave more to our culture than the short-lived "Planter" class. Cowboy culture was learned from the Mexicans & there were quite a few Black cowboys. And the petrochemical industry lured Cajun & Creole settlers from Louisiana.

Houston & most of our cities remain magnets for immigrants from all the countries in the world. Some don't have papers. Big deal.

on the Mayflower!

In illegal immigrants terms, that means stop the inflow of illegals by securing the borders. Stem the tide, the monthly onslaught of hundreds of thousands first, THEN deal with those who are already IN the country.

I can be more compassionate about those already here if we can just stop the flow of people. They are killing the working poor Americans by taking all the jobs blue collar Dems used to take. They undercut all laborers by working too cheap, and they don't support any of the social systems, while using all of them.

I don't fault them for being here, for wanting to be here, but working under market undercuts Americans who need those jobs. Stop the tide, then let's deal humanely with those who are here. If that means some shot at citizenship, well, then it does.

They come here for jobs. Take every single asset, including all personal wealth from those that hire them and it will slow to a trickle tomorrow. These people are only trying to support themselves and their families. It is those that hire them to exploit them and profit from them who should be considered illegal. Enforce a living wage and payment of taxes. Employers are the ones who should be patrolled and if found cheating put in detention.

I don't believe the world is free range and we can simply take everyone from south of here who shows up. We have to secure the border. It's an invasion, an army of people invading the southwestern states every month. We don't unlimited resources.

First we secure the border, then we deal with the illegals who are here appropriately, which would mean we figure out standards for their making citizenship.

I'm not big on deporting people who have gotten inside the country, settled in somewhere, and made a life.

Illegal immigration is a threat to one segment of the Democratic coalition, and one reason we aren't getting the votes from that segment any more is our lack of any effort to protect them from the impact of illegal immigration. They are sucking up jobs and social services dollars all at the same time.

What on God's green earth don't you guys understand about starvation? Or about, centuries old migration patterns?

Or about your corporate overlords?

No! Let's criminalize Blanca and Sergio. That will fix everything :sarcasm:

My people have been working this land since time immemorial. You think a wall will stop them?

Or, should stop them?

You don't know them very well. :(

What they are fleeing is irrelevant. We don't set our immigration policy based upon the suckiness of the world in general, or we'd have 250 million immigrants a year.

We have a country, it's our tribe. We place our tribe above others, because that's what our constitution says. The constitution is official. The poem on the Statue of Liberty is not. Harsh? Yes, but that's where we are.

We can't simply sit back and let 5 million foreigners a year come over the border from Cali to Texas. The US belongs to the citizens, and the citizenry is overwhelmingly in favor of tighter borders to stop illegal immigration.

But illegal immigration has fat cats working for it. You're in bed with the Waltons on this one. All the big Pub fat cats love illegal immigrants. They don't have to put up with the demands and requirements of those pesky citizens.

Remember why Thoreau wrote "Civil Disobedience"?

No, I'm not with the Thuggery, I'm with the people and reality. The Thuggery has been saving this issue for 2006. They love slave wages and they hate illegals, right?

There is no way this ebb and flow over that "border" will ever stop, Al Qaeda gardeners and nannies notwithstanding.

And, the current system is horrible for them, too. They are at the mercy of people you don't even want to know. I've translated for detainees here in our county jail whose crime was payday -- their boss turned them in on pay day. And here they sit, for MONTHS, incommunicado.

What freaks me out is seeing right wing talking points being posted at DU as fact. What freaks me out is this new wave of rampant racism sweeping over the county.

Sorry to be cranky. Long week, long five years.

I don't think the illegals are taking many jobs from
blue collar dems. Many democrat voters are educated,
work in the media, universities, hollywood, etc. hardly
the blue collar types.

Actually the typical GOP voter has less income and less
education than their democrat counterpart. The GOP average
contribution is generally lower than the democratic average.

Just a question.


And if you really believe the needs of the poor in the US are scoffed at here, I hope you'll look again and find yourself very much mistaken.

Thank you, Qibling. I've never talked to you before and I thank you for putting this question out there so clearly.

peace
Beth

/no typing'

if we can make sure that everyone who crosses the borders is in the country legally, then it would be fine. The new ellis island is the rio grande

and other ships, invading the native American's country?

If it was OK for the Europeans to illegally settle in
America, WTF is it not OK for brown skinned Mexicans
and other Latins to come her for EXACTLY the same reason,
which is to find a way to make a living?

who stated he was against immigration. This was in the eighties. At first, I was appalled--then he explained. He said "do you really believe that people want to leave their homeland to come to another country, leave their family? The reason people leave is because of the political or economical environment in their own country. If you alleviated the cause of political and economical stress in other countries, you would decrease immigration. Our foreign policies, our business dealings cause political and economical stress in other countries. When there are over 550 so-called American corporations in Mexico, why are immigrants coming here? Maybe because some of the workers in Mexico are exploited, their environment is exploited. If you want to deter illegal immigration, come down hard on the employers. As long as we have companies in this country exploiting immigrants and getting away with it, the longer there's going to be a problem.