Save Tookie Williams!!!!!

Please help try to save this man's life.

It's an amazing irony that a person who has been able to rehabilitate himself in a 5 by 12 foot hole in the wall cell on death row is in danger of being murdered by the state. Have we become so barbaric in this country that we cannot recognize a case of rehabilitation when it's right in our faces?

For the state to murder him would send the wrong message as well as further corrode our society. To grant him Clemency would benefit society as a whole given the body of work he's done and could do in the future to further the cause of non-violence and justice.

PLEASE ACT!!!!!

Call Gov S.:

916-445-2841

Send a Fax:

916-445-4633

Send an eMail:

governor@governor.ca.gov

Sign the petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

OR DO IT ALL!!!



"That which you do to the least of my brethren you do to me!" Jesus the Christ...

The C A I - Coalition Against Injustice strongly opposes the death-penalty.

But that only includes cases with DNA. That's not including the tens of thousands that have no biological evidence to clear them, nor the indigent who cannot afford DNA testing.
Prisons are one of the highest profiting industries in America, taking $23,000 - $50,000 per inmate, per year, of tax-dollars, while the prisons are self-supporting.

BTW, BOYCOTT CCA! NYSE:CXW

I sent an email to Schwarzenegger about two weeks ago asking him for clemency for Williams citing his rehabilitation and the fact that since he would have his sentence commuted to life without parole that he wouldn't be able to hurt anyone anymore.

I got a reply from him. He never used to reply to emails before the special election, but now that he has lost that he is sucking up to Californians big time because he wants to be reelected.

He said that he would review all of the issues very carefully, and that he would meet with a special committee to review the facts and circumstances of the case. I don't attach any special meaning to that.

The last two times he appointed a committee to review executions, he went ahead and denied clemency. I hope this is different, but I sure don't trust the Gov.

"rehabilitation" without an expression of accountability and remorse is meaningless.

Clemency is not a pardon. That should be enough sate your insistence on retribution.
The death penalty is as archaic as it is barbaric.

We're a barbaric species.

Instead of talking out our differences with other countries, we kill a few (or many) thousands of each other, and then, when that gets old, we talk out our differences.

We build a major port in an area below sea level, and fail to build a tall enough pile of dirt around it to keep out the water, which, surprisingly, killed a lot of people (we don't really want to know how many). Then we blame the thousands of citizens who actually are "the city" for being so stupid, poor, and black as to live there. Oh yeah, and then we do nothing after that.

Every once in a while, our barbarism feels so heavy that we symbolically shed a few pounds of it. Recently, we made ourselves feel better (at least for a little while) fighting for the life of a brain dead woman who actually would have preferred us to just leave her the fuck alone.

Whether it's Darwin or God, someone's not quite done with us yet.

L.A. Officers Urge 'No Mercy' for Tookie Williams
By Henry Weinstein, Times Staff Writer


Los Angeles' top law enforcement officers today urged Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to have no mercy for Stanley Tookie Williams, the gang co-founder convicted of four murders who is to be executed Dec. 13.

Williams is a "coldblooded killer" who has "left his mark forever on our society by co-founding one of the most vicious, brutal gangs in existence, the Crips," according to the statement urging Schwarzenegger to deny clemency.


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-111705tookie_lat,0,7854003.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Interviewed recently on DemocracyNow!

he has.

He hasn't taken the blame for the crimes for which he was sentenced to death. I suspect that's because he didn't commit them.

That doesn't mean he didn't commit any other crimes as bad or worse but for those 2, he was probably framed by the LAPD and the L.A. DA's office. They do it all the time.

Don't be fooled. If the cops and the DA's want your ass in jail, they can put it there. I heard a quote from an Alameda County D.A., "The only difference between the guilty and the innocent is that the innocent are a little harder to convict." That's the way they work.

Anyway, the point is not what Mr. Williams did or didn't do. The point is are we going to continue to be barbarians and do to him what he's been convicted of doing to others? Or are we better than that?

Actually what the State does is even worse...the State does it in cold blood, remorselessly without emotion with a big buildup and the rituals of sacrifice.

Who's the more brutal killer there, eh?

NOT IN MY NAME...

"...for which he was sentenced to death. I suspect that's because he didn't commit them."

Along with the other 99% of inmates. Didnt you know? Almost everyone in jail is innocent.

that the criminal injustice system has a habit of incarcerating the innocent.

Information about the innocent being sent to death row...

http://members.tripod.com/RobtShepherd/innocent.html

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110

and that's just those with Capital Sentences.

I know better than you think about the folks in prison or jail. It's true that few admit guilt but most are guilty of some crime.

However, death row is special. If you're Black or Poor and are accused of killing a White person, you are a hundred times more likely of being given the death penalty (by an all-white jury, a drunken or incompetent court appointed defense lawyer, cops who lie and prosecutors who routinely withhold exculpatory evidence). That's just the reality of the machinery of death in the U.S. of A.

Believe it or not, that's not why I want an end to the death penalty though. I have a moral objection to state sponsored murder. It corrodes society and says that it's ok to kill. That's why the civilized world has abolished it. I would like to see if abolished here.

Most inmates admit their guilt and will even give details of their crimes. Go sit in a courtroom and all day long inmates plead guilty, (including innocent suspects).

That kool-aid you're drinking is poison, you know...

He was quoting Shawshank for crissakes.

"That kool-aid you're drinking is poison"

Calling Williams innocent is the biggest swig of koolaid one can take, not even dealing with whther he should be put to death.

"If the cops and the DA want your ass in jail, they can put it there".

I once heard a cop boasting about "testilying", and that "THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME."

with a young lady. what was he doing that night. to me if you believe tookie, then WMD's in iraq are possible.

Yikes!

How does it get worse that killing four innocent people, showing no mercy? Killing five?

He explicitly stated his remorse for co-founding the Crips.

How much more do you need?

a completely changed man. Apparently he is working with youths to form an anti-gang movement.

A convicted murderer. Organizing a brutal street gang responsible for a lot more murder and human suffering. I'll pass on this one.

I'll be amazed anyways if a republican governor shows any compassion.

You don't believe that people can be rehabilitated? You don't believe in spiritual transformation?

I do. I don't want to live in a world where forgiveness is not practiced and reformation recognized.

I too will be amazed if the gropenfuhrer grants him Clemency though.

But, what the hell, a repuke crook named Ryan did it in Illinois and a rightward-leaning Dem did it in Virginia just a couple of days ago. Maybe this barbarous practice is, like it's bastard twin Slavery, finally going "out of style".


On edit:

Please check it out before dismissing his redemption...

http://www.savetookie.org/

Yes I believe in rehabilitation and spiritual transformation. I just think the bad far outweighs the good in this case. Assination of innocent people with a shotgun? Multiple brutal murders, no remorse. What if he killed your father or son or brother?

Having the clerk lie down in the back room and then shooting him twice in the back murdering him.

I'll wait for a better case to throw my efforts behind.

As far as redemption, let's hope he goes to heaven a changed man.

Drop it like its hot

I keep a blue flag hanging out my backside
But only on the left side, yeah that's the Crip side
Ain't no other way to play the game the way I play

I'm sure this has nothing to do with his outspoken position on the execution.

This guy is responsible for more black on black crime than any single person in CA.

How many kids die in gang wars.

There in no rehabilitation for multiple murder.
Live by the sword..

We have to hurry up and get on this. This case really pisses me off, a black man just happens to be in the same place at the same time when people decided to commit suicide using his shotgun after giving him their money out of respect for the massive amount of good works he had done in the community and all of a sudden he's a gang forming "murderer". It's just racism man, everyone knows that prosecutor is a nazi skinhead with hair who used to hang around with David Duke and play drums for Johnny Rebel. And don't even get me started on the jury, 12 old, white, rich MEN??? How biased can you get? They might as well have moved the trial to fucking Alabama for all the fairness he would get from them. And just when you thought "the man" couldn't stoop any lower they brought in a fucking ventriloquist to throw his voice in Tookie's direction to make it seem as if he were threatening the jurors. Can you believe that shit? Tookie threatening people? It's absurd. And after poor, unfortunate Tookie accepted his unfair treatment he constantly had to defend himself against other prisoners and ended up hurting his hands many times while beating them in self-defense until the guards had to shoot at him to make him stop. What was he to do? The people he was defending himself against may have regained consciousness at some point and attacked him again. And to add insult he had to defend himself against racist guards by throwing chemicals in their faces when they weren't looking to avoid beatings. And then the racist, biased prison authorities confiscated some pictures that Tookie drew and some letters he had written and charged him with a completely made up escape plan involving members of the Crips gang with whom Tookie no longer has any affiliation. Unreal. He really was just bouncing ideas around for a novel he was going to write about a prison escape. I just don't understand why people don't believe this considering the 50 anti-gang children's books he's written over the past two decades. In closing, Tookie is an innocent man who is being unfairly killed in a barbaric manner by the STATE due to society's penchant for killing the elderly by denying them healthcare.

You know, I'd give YOUR post a damn vote if I could...but the only way I could do that is by giving another vote for another thread defending poor 'ole innocent Tookie.

We shouldn't be worried, on December 13th justice WILL be served...but you know within days probably there will be about another 40 threads on the NEXT poor 'ole innocent murderer that's going to get his punishment...and oh my God don't you know, that they love baby kittens and if only we would just FORGET that they'd murdered some people, you know maybe they could like rejoin society.

The innocent victims don't count you see...they're not as important as the murderers...just ask the Andrea Yates Fan Club.

Again, your post is great, it made me laugh :)

Is votable even a word? I should ask Tookie the brilliant author. :7

He's votable! :D

Very nice, MrSlayer.

I don't often get to write creatively in what is mostly a fact based forum.

A guy with a nickname that adorable couldn't possibly be guilty of anything, except perhaps loving too much! And they accuse him of co-founding a murderous gang, when all they really are is a bunch of high-spirited entrepreneurs with an in-your-face attitude.

An F for not getting it.

Nobody says he's innocent. Because nobody can. I get really annoyed when we randomly assign blame about shit we know nothing about.

What this is about is the death penalty. Consideration of that has nothing to do with innocence or guilt. But considering we are the only western state still employing that tactic, perhaps we might want to consider putting the "civil" back in civilization and move more toward an enlightened mindset like the rest of the civilized world.

but against the death penalty in general, Arnold should act by commuting every death sentence to life without parole. But it is about Tookie.

Not a 4 time convicted killer and leader of one of the most heinous gangs of killers in America.

But you are right.

Its up to the judge, jury, appeals court, district courts, Supreme court and Govenor to determine who is deserving.

So far they say...NOT

The clemency would commute his sentence to life without parole. It is the governor's prerogative to do that and I hope he does. In my opinion that sentence is even more cruel so hopefully that will sate the appetite of those insisting on a blood-letting. It is critical that we as a nation rethink the death penalty. The idea that there could be a mistake in the process is enough to preclude its use.

death row? Didn't this happen in the 70's? It seems to me that he was damn lucky to go on this long. I thought death row inmates average was 10 years?

it's up to each one of us.

clemency is deserved. They are the people most affected
by Tookie, and only they should decide. Ahnuld was not
affected and he has no business getting involved.

If those families feel Tookie is rehabilitated, then he
deserves to live.

There are always advocates for the particular person about to be put to death, and then there are those opposed to the death penalty in general that personalize each scenario. Don't confuse the two.

The truth is Ahnuld will do what is politically expedient for him, whatever he thinks will further him politically. Sadly these decisions of clemency almost never have to do with the individual or the broader issue of the death penalty.

Tookie is the next guy on deck here in California. Of course people will argue his alleged rehabilitation, but in doing so they may have entirely different motives.

My point is that the US needs to move into an era of enlightenment and civility and abolish the death penalty. This eye for an eye crap is selective morality. With DNA proving innocence in eye-opening numbers and the fact that legal representation is indeed not equal, we have done enough damage to our collective humanity. Enough.

Several people in these "Tookie" threads are spending a lot of time insinuating that he is innocent.

The guy is as guilty as sin. I'm against the DP but I won't be holding any vigils for this guy. I've read the court documents describing the murders and his escape plans where he plots to murder guards and a witness.

You don't know nor does anyone else. And unless you are one of the 12 assigned the duty of judging him, you are simply pontificating.

In case you didn't notice, the jury convicted him.

The original poster said, in post #7:

"He hasn't taken the blame for the crimes for which he was sentenced to death. I suspect that's because he didn't commit them."

I read the evidence including the purchase documents of the murder weapon. Who am I to believe? The OP or my lying eyes?

I just love amateur jurists. I am really interested to know where you get off thinking Tookie's sentence is any of your business?

Just like those quacking about OJ Simpson's case - whites are certain he's guilty, blacks are certain he's not. Both can't be true. What is true is process. I actually watched that trial because I was recovering from surgery and had nothing better to do. The verdict was correct. Why? Because the police clearly planted blood evidence. Blood found had traces of the preservative found only in labs. That tainted all other evidence and gave the defense a shadow of doubt. Still I don't know if he's guilty or not and nobody else really does.

But, again, this isn't about Tookie. Clearly you want him to fry. I'm having a hard time hearing this mindset particularly on these message boards. I had thought most Dems and lefties were more enlightened. So, life in prison without the possibility of parole isn't punishment enough in your eyes?

Regardless of the crime, regardless of the verdict, regardless of all other mitigating factors, the death penalty is archaic and barbaric. As a nation, it should be our collective hope that we move forward progressively and seek to actually be a civilized nation. The fact that we are the only western nation to still have the death penalty should be a clue.

YOU:
"this isn't about Tookie. Clearly you want him to fry"

Wrongo. Try again, and this time, read my posts. Like I said, I'm against the death penalty but I'm not holding any candle-light vigils for this guy. If there ever was a poster-child for the DP, this guy is it. My problem is with the innocence bullshit being tossed around here by the "save tookie" crowd. Like I said, I'll trust the jury AND the physical evidence.

YOU:
"I am really interested to know where you get off thinking Tookie's sentence is any of your business?"

WTF? I mean: W. T. F.? If it's nobody's business, why are we (you)discussing it here? If it's nobody's business, why don't we ALL STFU because the jury decided AND voted for death? How much more documentation do you need (if we are using your logic)? The people posting demonstrably false information here are the "tookie is innocent" crowd.

For starters, it wasn't an "all white" jury. That is a fact. Tookie owned the murder weapon. That is a fact. Not everyone who testified against Tookie was a jail-house snitch. That is a fact. The witnesses against Tookie were cross-examined by an attorney of Tookie's choosing. That is a fact. Testimony was entered to impeach the character of hostile witnesses and the jury still convicted. That is a fact.


O.J. f--king Simpson???? The verdict was correct? Now, who's the amateur jurist??? No offense, but you like to contradict yourself.


Your last paragraph I can agree with.


BTW: I'll decide what is my business thankyouverymuch.

If you had read my post, you would get it, but you clearly glossed over it. It wasn't a question of guilt or innocence, it was process. And the police were so anxious to nail him, they planted evidence. In doing so, they f***ed the entire case by providing reasonable doubt. That's my point. The jury had no other choice and rendered the only vertict they could, again thanks to the overanxious and corrupt police.

I'm not interested in talking the specifics of Tookie's case nor in holding a candlelight vigil. My point in its entirety is regarding the death penalty. And you keep digging back into the case, the jury, the crime, etc.

BTW, I don't think anyone has actually maintained Tookie is innocent but rather the legal system particularly involving minorities and the poor is suspect. Over 100 people on death row have been set free owing to DNA analysis. So I'm not nearly as impressed with the finality of the verdict and sentencing as you are. Often that has turned out to be flat-out wrong.

Regardless, Schwarzenegger will do what he thinks will further himself politically, and the topic of the death penalty will be rendered moot.

You:

"BTW, I don't think anyone has actually maintained Tookie is innocent"

I pointed it out to you and you chose to ignore it. That's how this discussion started.

Other than that, we are on the same page concerning the DP only I didn't accuse you of not minding your business or wanting Tookie to "walk" like you accused me of wanting tookie to "fry".

On more careful perusal, I see that some people do. And I also think people misunderstand what clemency means.

--that claim by the defense was bullshit, and I say that as a professional analytical chemist. A refractive index "peak" only about 2.5 times as high as the baseline noise is NOT evidence for EDTA. There were many more sensitive and accurate tests they might have used, but they chose to use an unvalidated one.

However, that doesn't get LAPD off the hook. I have never even heard of such a fucked up chain of custody process in my professional life so far. Chain of custody is more important than any other factor in forensics--chemists can only tell you what is in a sample and how much of it there is. We can't tell you how it got there. Given these foul-ups, the claim of "beyond reasonable doubt" could not be met. They had quite a bit of real evidence--too bad they chose to gild the lily instead of going with what they had.

you read the documentation that the cops and the D.A. want you to hear. Any exculpatory evidence is routinely removed from the record by the time you get it.

Juries falsly convict people every day:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=110


Do you have any links to this alleged documentation that you've read?

So in your little world, no-one is capable of change, eh?

YOu cant be redeemed if you won't admit your crimes

crimes if you didn't do them.

On Edit:

The Criminal Injustice system in this country is something I KNOW about - from the inside.

The cops grab the first person who remotely fits the evidence they have. In some cases, like say...a high profile gang leader, they might even fabricate evidence just to grab their target. In a death penalty case, they're even more likely to grab the first person who remotely fits the situation (a black man, medium build in a cap).

The D.A.s job performance is judged on how severe a penalty they get in the least amount of time spent. If they can get someone to plead quickly to a charge and receive prison time...even if they DIDN'T do it... they're judged as effective D.A.s. If they take too much time, determine that the person's innocent and not prosecute, they're graded down in the eyes of their superiors.

The courtroom belongs to the most effective council and the judge's prejudices. The courtroom is NOT a place of truth but appearances. The good actor usually wins the jury over.

It has already been established that Mr. Williams was not a model defendant, in fact was something of a violent bastard, had inadequate council appointed by the court, had a prosecution team that was hell bent on convicting and executing him at any cost--including withholding evidence and suborning witnesses. To expect any other judgment in these circumstances would be ridiculous. To expect the truth of the situation to be revealed in these circumstances would be folly.


BUT, I posted this thread because I'm against the death penalty in ANY case. My reasons have been detailed elsewhere in this post. If you are for the death penalty, then call the gov. If you're against the death penalty or against murdering this man, then call the gov. It's a (seemingly) free country...

Either way, he is not redeemed.

The minute a Democrat steps out of line with DU thinking they are branded forever.

And yes, there are people here claiming he's innocent. A pure anti-DP stance I can understand if not agree with but those who are claiming his innocence are saying things not unlike what I wrote.

The evidence against him is overwhelming. Over 20 appeals have been turned down by 20 years worth of courts and governors, INCLUDING DEMOCRATIC GOVERNORS. The 9th circuit court is the MOST liberal in the nation and it turned him down.

He is guilty, and it sickens me to see the "I Love Tookie" crowd exalting him. I do not want clemency for Tookie as I am completely sure that if he got clemency the Tookie groupies would instantly start a "Free Tookie" movement.

Try reading the thread.

If we kill him we'll be violating the 1st amendment, since he won't be able to write books when he is dead.

Reminds me of the miscarriage of justice when we imprisoned an innocent plumber named John Gotti a few years back.

because otherwise it's just plain silly.

Yes, Gotti the innocent plumber and executive of a zipper company.

The one you want is www.freerepublic.com.

They'd love your point of view with its made up "facts" and especially since yours is a "strawman" argument, one of the right-wing's favorite logic errors.

Your post would be funny if it weren't so clueless...

Most of the people who post here are progressives. We realize that there is such a thing as Redemption and forgiveness for those who are redeemed or who, like Tookie, redeem themselves.

Personally, I don't care who the "condemned" are, for every reason, moral or pragmatic or financial the death penalty is counter-productive, ineffective and barbaric and should be fought on every front until it's abolished here as it has been in the Civilized world. That's the reason for my post, not just one man...

you don't have to call the governor then...

And I have. But not to save this piece of shit. I called and wrote in support of the sentence. Pretty weak personal attack as well douchelips. :P

I am glad that one of our potential contenders don't have to make this decision. If you send Tookie to his death you'll be seen as uncompassionate and many in the anti-Capital punishment and African-American communities won't like it.

On the other hand if you let this guy live you'll no doubt be accused of being soft on crime.

I hope our guys/gals leave this decision to Arnold rather than chime in.

The store clerk, twenty-six year old Albert Lewis Owens, was sweeping the store parking lot. When Darryl and Sims entered the 7-Eleven, Owens put the broom and dust pan down and followed them into the store. Williams and Coward followed Owens into the store. As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens and told him "shut up and keep walking." While pointing a shotgun at Owens' back, Williams directed him to a back storage room.

Once inside the storage room, Williams, at gunpoint, ordered Owens to "lay down, mother f*****." Williams then chambered a round into the shotgun. Williams then fired the round into the security monitor. Williams then chambered a second round and fired the round into Owens' back as he lay face down on the floor of the storage room. Williams then fired again into Owens' back.

Both of the shotgun wounds were fatal. The pathologist who conducted the autopsy on Owens testified that the end of the barrel was "very close" to Owens' body when he was shot. One of the two wounds was described as ". . . a near contact wound." After Williams murdered Owens, he, Darryl, Coward and Sims fled in the two cars and returned home to Los Angeles. The robbery netted them approximately $120.00.

Once back in Los Angeles, Williams asked if anyone wanted to get something to eat. When Sims asked Williams why he shot Owens, Williams said he "didn't want to leave any witnesses." Williams also said he killed Owens "because he was white and he was killing all white people." Later that same day, Williams bragged to his brother Wayne about killing Owens. Williams said, "you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made gurgling or growling noises and laughed hysterically about Owens' death.

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie2.htm

great citation :sarcasm:

I've seen other crap from this guy Charles Montaldo -- he's a hard-right, sycophant for the cops and D.A.s.

Well, now we've heard the bullshit argument from the D.A. Arnold, on the other hand, will also hear the WHOLE truth not just a fiction cooked up by the cops.

please don't make this gangster and murderer the poster boy for your efforts. this is destructive to Dems. surely there are better candidates for high-profile rescue attempts.

gangster before he rehabilitated himself while spending 6 1/2 YEARS in solitary confinement.

He is NOT that ganster any more. He is a changed man.

If you're for death penalty activism then you are against ANY condemned person being murdered in cold blood by the state. The death penalty is rascist and classist. I would think that progressive Dems would be against it on those grounds as well.

For the religious among you, it's also completely immoral. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Mr. Williams is just the next one in line so he's the one we're working to save. His scheduled murder is being followed closely by a 75 year old Native American in January (1 day after his birthday) then by a Chicano in Feb. The California machinery of death seems to be creaking to life again, alas!

You can hope all you like that people will agree with you that the Jeffrey Dahmers and Joseph Duncans* and Tookie Williamses should have their lives spared. I'll grant you that and congratulate you that your position is at least consistent. However, it is still a pragmatic reality that you will drive more people from your side than you attract if you select monsters like this as the media faces for your effort. I don't believe Tookie's jailhouse conversion for one second, and most people who have any experience with sociopaths won't either. He slaughtered 4 people and laughed about it, and he started an organization that still is causing rivers of blood to flow in our cities. His change of heart won't last one minute longer than he needs it to in order to get something out of it.

Sure, you want purity of message, so it shouldn't matter if you pick a monster. But, pragmatically, if you really care about getting people to agree with you, it's not a very smart campaign. Surely there is some guy on death row whose case is less clear and whose brutality is less certain. Then at least you open people's minds to consider the brutality of this solution to crime, and nudge them to think about whether government should be carrying out such a sentence at all.

Good luck to you, rooting for Tookie, but know that choosing a monster for your poster boy will hurt your cause more than it will help it. That is just fact.

*the guy who abducted the Groening children, slaughtered their family, raped and murdered Dylan, and raped 8-year-old Shasta for over a month before she was rescued

1) He is innocent of the murders.

2) Even if he isnt innocent, then he has turned his life around.

3) Even If he didnt turn his life around, he has saved kids from emulating what he didnt do.

4) Even If he didnt save kids, well the death penality is wrong anyway.

5) Even if the death penality isnt wrong, if we don't save Tookie, then the crips will rise up, riot and kill many people in LA. Because Tookie is right about gang life rioting and killing being wrong.

6) And if you still don't agree, then Im putting you on ignore!

7) If putting you on ignore doesnt work, and the thread gets to much anti-tookie posts, we'll just have the thread locked and start a new one like we've done 3 times already.

Don't people realize this guy and his organization worked with the CIA to poison his own community?

Maybe if we can somehow connect him to Bush/Reagan, all this "he's innocent" crap would disappear instantly.

That's not saying anything about the death panelty just the "he's innocent" stuff.

Christian born again Karla Faye Tucker would still be living in prison if Bush hadn't signed the papers to put her to death.

that convicted him, but if he killed 4 people, he must pay the ultimate price. I assume there is no DNA evidence to clear him, or anything to warrant a new trial, so I have to assume he is guilty. What about the people whom he killed....is there nothing to be said about them.

He is to be commended for his rehab but that is all. I can see no reason to spare his life since he created one of the most brutal gangs ever and killed 4 people.

Carla Fay Tucker had the Pope ask to spare her life because of rehab, of course Bush didn't do it!!

At least Williams found some redemption and that is something to be thankful for.

I have a question for you, why is it that many rapists and murderers become "born again" while in prison? Do they really think that will buy them a place in heaven--I think not!

My sympathies lie with the family's of the victims.

Ask yourself if you would feel the same way if it were your family member who died, therein lies the answer......

on anybody. I think rotting in jail for the rest of one's life the ultimate punishment.

responsibility for our actions. Tookie is no different.

I'm not sure if you are just anti-capital punishment or you just feel that Tookie deserves another chance at life because of his redemption?

I long supported the death penalty, except recently I heard that there are many innocent people on death row. I have been re-evaluating my position, but feel that due to DNA evidence and better technology, we will be able to bring that number down.

However, I have no sympathy for rapists, child molesters and murderers.

It has been capriciously and grossly misused in the US. I don't think commuting a sentence to life without a parole is preventing anyone from taking responsibility for their actions.

kill 4 people, redeem yourself, and you to can get your sentence commuted.....I just can't get around the 4 people you know. 1 life would have been too many.

So, I am assuming that your position is one of anti-death penalty and not neccesarily support for "Tookie."

it's interesting. I doubt that you assume that bush didn't know he was lying us into a war, why is it so hard to believe that Mr. Williams is rehabilitated and deserving of Clemency?

He's not "born again", he's rehabilitated. Jail house conversions are Mostly bullshit. I've seen 'em, I know...

My sympathies lie with ALL victims. Of course, since he was so hastily framed by the L.A. D.A. and cops because of his status as the leader of the Crips, we'll never know who really killed the loved ones from those victim's families.

That's a major problem with the death penalty -- it short circuits real justice.

It also fools people into thinking that vengeance is the solution. This leaves the victim's families in the same corrosive emotional state that they were in before the state murdered in their names. The cameras and reporters go home and the victim's families are left stewing in their own bile after the state murder doesn't make the pain go away...

I would NOT want the killer of anyone in my family to be murdered by the state in my name!!!

If your last paragraph is true, than you really are against the death penalty.

Frankly, if someone killed someone I love, I would want to hang them.

So let's just agree to disagree. BTW, that post you sent me in the CA forum was unnecessary. I think you are angry because you didn't get the support you wanted in this thread and I don' think you should take it out on me.

You have been here awhile and you are obviously intelligent and know that when posting here, you never know what kind of reaction you will get.

This subject is one that many people feel very stongly about and as such can get heated.

Peace to you......

Yes, it is a subject that people feel very strongly about.

I loath the death penalty.

I consider it an act that's MUCH worse than the usual run-of-the-mill murders perpetrated in society that it allegedly makes the killer pay for. These murders are mainly driven by out of control emotions in highly stressful situations.

The death penalty, on the other hand, is perpetrated in cold blood in a (seemingly*) emotionless cold, calculated manner using our tax dollars. There's a psychological term for this kind of action and it's sociopathy. The death penalty is sociopathic behavior by the state in our name using our money.

EVERY study has shown that the death penalty is NOT a deterrent (and in matter of fact is a counter-deterrent), does NOT help the victim's families cope with their loss, is more expensive than any rational alternative, and is applied in a racist and classist manner so that even if it were effective, it's still against basic Democratic principals and values in its application.

I also have up-close and personal exposure to the machinery of death during an unfortunate period in my life. I have talked with death row guards and observed the pain and the torture their souls undergo as administrators of the machinery of death. This is personal for me. There but for the grace of God go any of us -- the cops and D.A.s and Judges routinely get the wrong man.

Again, peace to you though. I apologize for my outbursts and hope you will understand that this is a core issue with me. I made the mistake of believing the parts of my Catholic school upbringing pertaining to Jesus's teachings about forgiveness and redemption.

Silly me...

And it is completely consisent with his character. The escape notes were written in his own hand. The threats to the jury and witness were made in the courtroom in front of the entire court. He is not a misunderstood choir boy.

You claim that the evidence was "planted". Please prove that. Saying so doesn't make it so.

Nor do I beleive his has found redemption. After all, he has refused to give evidence of crimes that he is certain to know about. He says that goes against his values, but "Never snitch" is a value of a street hood. If he still clings to that value, then he has not changed.

About those books. His total sales, according to Book Scan, are 332 copies. So they are NOT having any effect.

About the so called anti-gang efforts: He is in a maximum security prison. How is he doing any work with kids? All that he does is record a few tapes and talk to an occasional friendly interviewer. That's all.

By trying to push the "Tookie is innocent" line, you decrease your own effectiveness in fighting the DP. You cost yourself credibility.

I am pointing out that in ALL death penalty cases, given the nature of the criminal-injustice system, there is ALWAYS reasonable doubt...

Another good reason to be against the death penalty in all cases.

No other modern democracy practices the death penalty except the United States.

No other modern industrialized democracy has a murder rate anywhere near that of the United States. Deterrence is hardly an issue. Since the death penalty was reinstated, over 80% of all executions have occurred in the South, the region with the highest murder rate. The Northeast, the region with the lowest murder rate, has accounted for less than 1% of the executions

Not even the conservative parties of any other industrialized (or post-industrialized) democracy seriously contemplate restoring the death penalty.

This not just a core liberal principle. It is a basic democratic principle. It is simply something civilized societies abolished some time ago.

The word redemptio is the Latin Vulgate rendering of Hebrew kopher and Greek lytron which, in the Old Testament means generally a ransom-price.

Noun: redemption ri'dempshun

1. (Christianity) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil
- salvation

What Mr. Williams was when he was tried and sentenced is NOT the individual who's being threatened with murder by the State. In fact, the kind of person he was when tried and sentenced when contrasted with the kind of person he has become DOES make him a poster child for redemption and rehabilitation.

Which would you support?

A) A prison system that brutalizes inmates, refuses to work toward or recognize rehabilitation and from which, hardened persons WILL return to society or

B) a prison system whose purpose is to redeem and rehabilitate ALL of its inmates (as far as possible) in certain knowledge that it's more effective and moral to do so.

Right now, we have A -- the brutal, expensive, counter-productive system of torture of the CDC.

I vote for B...