What was so wrong with what Howard Dean said??

I just saw a clip of him. He said (paraphrasing), "they say stay in, yeah, we heard this during Vietnam--'just another year', they kept saying. And then 25,000 more dead. And it wasn't winnable, and we didn't win, etc."

HE'S F**KING RIGHT, for God's sake!!!!

Who here is in Dean's age range? I'm betting most of you are younger than he, and I am younger, too, but unlike some of you, I was alive during the latter part of Vietnam.

I was a child, but since Vietnam pervaded our culture, I heard a lot about it. Bits and pieces: "Catch 22", a book I didn't really find all that funny, b/c I was a child; M*A*S*H the movie, which was technically about Korea but was really a commentary about Vietnam in many ways; the music--I could go on and on about that; Norman Mailer; long-haired people in huge crowds in protest;Kent state; "Make love, not war"; "Mad" magazine's handy dandy guide for avoiding being drafted ("Avoid the draft! Wear pink underwear!"); trying to recognize the names of places as they showed them on TV on the news, on little maps: the best I did was to know the names of Saigon and Hanoi and the dreaded Mekong delta; a nightmare of my draft-age brother's military funeral (he didn't die in the war, I just dreamed he died in it)...

I remember it.

Howard Dean is right. This is Vietnam; everyone knows this in their heart, if they are old enough to remember Vietnam. Howard Dean is right.

And still, still... the subtext is never, never mentioned: we aren't staying in Iraq to "not let down the Iraqi people"; we aren't staying in Iraq to "nurse a new democratic government". WE ARE IN IRAQ BECAUSE IF WE LEFT RIGHT NOW, SOMEBODY'S PROFITS WOULD TAKE A HUGE HIT. That is the ONLY true reason certain people in power are arguing against leaving.

Chris Matthews, the savvy and astute political commentator, expressed the two sides as: those who want us to get out, and those who want us to have a democracy in Iraq.

Chris Matthews and his ilk are out of touch with the PEOPLE of America. Down here among the PEOPLE, the division is between those of us who want us the fuck out of there, period, and those who want us to stay in b/c they think staying in will somehow save face for their leader, George W. Bush.

or wrong, what is ethical, etc.

Americans like to WIN. They want to be associated with winners. They don't want to be associated with people who even mention losing, or "not winning" (whether those people are being truthful or not).

It is politically stupid to come out and say "we're going to lose." It may be the truth, but from a pragmatic standpoint it's political stupidity. I'll give you the distantly relevent example of taxes: Even if they need to be raised, you don't bluntly tell the American people this. Walter Mondale did in 1984 (taxes did need to be raised, and Reagan raised them two years later!) and lost 49 states as a result. If Dean's out-of-context comment is allowed to stand, then he will be pulling involuntarily pulling a Mondale.

How much "pragmatism" do you need?

How can Dean "pull a Mondale" when he's not running for anything?

The Party is running for something.

2,000 dead?
5,000 dead?
10,000 dead?
60,000 dead?

How many dead Iraqis?

10,000 dead?
20,000 dead?
100,000 dead?
200,000 dead?

People are dying. Wounded troops are coming home to no health care and NO JOBS. While their families struggle by on credit cards that will make them indebted for the rest of their lives. And THEY'RE THE LUCKY ONES!

I got yer "pragmatism" right here!

We are WELL beyond the point we should be in confronting the truth of our situation.

especially the very first few words in my subject title....

And cut out the self-righteousness.

I'm really tired of our party slitting the throats of the truth tellers. People are dying. Texas and Haliburton may be having a "heck of a year", but the rest of the country is swiftly going down the sink.

Look if you want to be in the minority party the rest of your life, then keep up with your strategy. Never try to understand how the voters think. Never try to frame an issue in a way that might not "lay your soul bare". Keep throwing bombs. I promise you that its a strategy for permanent minority status. And, as a result, you will never get the power to change the country.

I think that the time for lobbing truth bombs is NOW. We are already at minority status. Which is disgusting, considering that we are in the MAJORITY population-wise in this country. We MUST begin to be heard.

Perception is everything.

The do-nothing strategy has DONE NOTHING for us.

You may have to keep your heads down in Texas, but the midwest must begin showing strength in numbers and standing four square against imperialism.

I realize that your mileage may vary...
:)
:hug:

I don't know any many Democrats that do. In fact, here in Dallas County we are one to two cycles from taking the county back over again.

Our representatives in Washington should not be keeping their heads down either, but that is exactly the effect created when the DLC are the "go-to guys" for the corporate media.

maybe the idea is that the electorate shouldn't be so much like a fiddle, to be played by crazed incompetents, or a puppet, with strings the man can pull until we're tied into knots. even in the 25 years since regan was foisted upon the american people (he probably wasn't elected, certainly not by a majority of the voters; see 'october surprise') the usa has gone from being the land of the free to the land of wtf (lol)
it doesn't matter anyway. this is a dying culture, living on a doomed planet.....the winners of the 'great game ' win nothing....

which explains why chimp, in an unintended slip of the truth, admitted that the war can't be "won" back in August, '04 on the Today Show.

..which is true.

has any Democrat mentioned a longer timeframe than Dean did? his position seems extreme to me and i'll never support it ...

another Vietnam. Which it is.

I don't recall hearing Dean say we need 2 more years. If he said that, I disagree. The time should be shorter. Do you view Dean's position as extreme b/c 2 years is too long? Or too short? Or... what?

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=C36A87B9-63A0-4CDE-AA91-B41571AFD3AF

i view Dean's position as extreme because two years is way too long ...

how Howard Fineman is evidently saying, "The republicans have framed the issue for 2006, and it's that the democrats want to cut and run, and they want to do the brave thing"--or some such pap?

It amazes me. First, the repukes get away with blaming this fraudulent war on the democrats because so many of them "voted for it". (And we're supposed to forget who STARTED the whole ball running--BEFORE the democrats ever "voted for it".)

Now the repukes might get away with blaming the democrats for "running away" from the same war that the repukes said the democrats were to blame for "voting for" in the first place.

If Americans fall for this, then they are stupid beyond all hope.

Dean is right. Nothing to back down from.

People are so dug in to their own positions that they can't step back and see the bigger picture, which is how to get out as quickly as possible with the least human casualty all around. As it relates to Howard Dean, is that winning or losing? And who the fuck care?

The problem with Howard Dean's comments, as usual, are that they're a distraction from the real problems facing us. So instead of talking about the best way to get out, we're now going to be talking about Vietnam and surrendering in the "war on terror" and however else the right chooses to spin it. Howard had an opportunity to frame the emptiness of the word "winning" as it pertains to Iraq because he's already said we need to stay in there for quite a while longer, I think 2 years. So not only is it a distraction, it doesn't even make any sense.

He made the comment about Dean. As a cynical political calculation, his comment about Dean was mildly insightful. But Dean is being viewed by 1000 regular people, for every one political analyst who views him. And to those regular people (such as myself), Dean's words are taken as plain English--not necessarily as some carefully-crafted political line (even if that's what they really were.)

Then Tweety had the guests, named Schroeder, whose future was taken away from them because their son was killed in Iraq in August.

He kept saying, how will we keep the Sunnis and the Shia from fighting? They said, we can give each side the means to defend itself, and if they choose to use those means to attack each other, that's their concern.

The wife eventually came out and said it's not our concern if these factions insist on fighting each other forever. She was right.

BTW, I can't wait to see the vicious wingnuts go after these bereaved people. It will show middle-of-the-road people just how useless and destructive wingnuts are. We shouldn't tolerate people who castigate the families of veterans.

Okay, if Dean says we need to stay 2 more years, I'm against that part of his position. But he's right about this being a new Vietnam. It is.

I don't think I have anything to add.

haven't been familiar buzzwords in all the discourse we've been hearing for over two and a half years about the Iraq mission!

Prominent advocates of continuing the war, including Bush, Cheney, Hillary Clinton and Wesley Clark, all speak pointedly of achieving "VICTORY" in Iraq. Comparisons between this conflict and VIETNAM have also dominated the discussion on every side. In fact, among the wingnuts, there's clearly a desire to 'prove,' through the Iraq mission, their old bar-room badass contention that we coulda won in Vietnam if we'd just gone over there and kicked their asses and shut up the liberal media and the damn hippie protestors. This time, by God, they want to see it done right.

Blaming Howard Dean for 'bringing these topics up' is a shameless exercise in scapegoating.

He just called for staying in Iraq for two years, then turned around and said we can't win in Iraq. That doesn't even make any sense. Yeah, people have been blathering about victory and winning and whatthefuckever. But nobody has said we can't win in Iraq which is nothing but a match for the right to light a firestorm with. I don't even think that's what he meant. I think he meant what I said, what is it that everybody says we're supposed to be winning, but there's nothing to "win" there. The internal problems are Iraq's, not ours. They have to resolve their differences and none of the different factions over there can "win" anything either.

those inconsistencies are consistent with his style of talking at a fast clip without parsing. I think all this weeks gaffes blow over pretty quickly. Although I agree with most of what he said, I think he attempted to oversimplify an entangled situation.

The words are too abstract. What are we really talking about. What does winning look like? For all I know Bush and Dean could even agree depending on what each means when they use the term win. Bush needs to start speaking in terms more precise that empty sound bites.

I really wish he'd have addressed that instead of making the statement that he made, because in light of his other statements to stay two years, it makes no sense at all.

Everyone is talking and no one is really saying anything.

They said, Bush and Cheney talk about victory, but they NEVER define what "victory" means.

I've been saying it's like Vietnam in that it is unwinable for more than 2 years now, but people didn't want to hear it. The poster is right in that Americans just want to hear we can win. Believe it or not, some people still think we won in Vietnam, that tells you something!

Hell, even Rumsfeld admits it would take 10 to 30 years to beat an insurgency.

Simple logic tells you it is unwinable.

I can't stand to see every day these liars, Bushco, etc., trying to sell the American people the same old tired bullshit they did in Vietnam.

And why doesn't anyone question what Bush means by "Victory". It makes no sense at all.

We like Dean because he is not afraid to speak the truth unlike many other Democrats who play it way to politically safe. I think we are all too sick of people playing it safe. I know I am....if we keep it up, things will never change for the democratic party.

After all, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results!!!

Thats why we need to stay for 10- 30 years signed Dick Cheney
P.S. and you'd never see my ass in Iraq either

Gulf of Tonkin, I believe.

when we left Vietnam it was over! The horrible ramifications and aftermath of the Iraq war will be felt for generations.

And you and I know full well that this war will make it less safe for all of us and it was the worst blunder ever!

here and right now, is: get rid of Bush and Cheney. Right now.

And people have been saying this since 2003. Why all the false outrage now?

Because we all know that the reason * sent our troops to Iraq was either b/c he and his cronies financially benefit by our occupying Iraq, or that he and his cronies financially benefit by Iraq being in chaos.

What was so wrong with what Howard Dean said?? He said it.

If Howard Dean says it, the right will not only disagree, they will ostracize.

Kinda' how some on the left responds to Hillary these days.

And I guess we want to persuade them, right?

But I'm just getting tired of trying to persuade those mulish bastards who don't give a damn who dies, as long as they can pretend Bush looks like a leader.

I'm getting sick of that. I'm ready to tell them, "If you don't like Howard Dean, I don't care. It wasn't Howard Dean who fucked us over for the past few years. And you can go fuck yourself!" (Last part of remarks, copyright: Dick Cheney.)

"Dean said..."

"Hillary did..."

THAT is enough for some to demonize.

!

HOWARD DEAN!!

It's stupid of them and I wish they would get on board!!!

Please correct me if I am wrong.
:shrug:

Dean tells the truth, and rarely minces words. The Ruling Class is very threatened by that.

The MSM (the mouthpiece for the Ruling class, and which the ruling class owns)takes liberty to attack Dean, because the Ruling Class is threatened by the Dean's willingness to speak truth to power, because the people he represents (the working class) might one day get some notion in our collective heads to reclaim what is rightfully ours, whether we're talking about the halls of congress or control of the media itself.

I didn't see it at the time, but that was part of the reason they felt bold to attack Clinton so viciously.

which carries no weight in todays environment.

A handful of wackjobs think we can win, whatever that means in Iraq....

of course, it's not for publication, but "win" to them means, "we stay there until we've exhausted all the opportunities for profit that we, personally, can get out of the place."

It's not just about profit--it's about THEIR personal profit.

--I think what he means is that we can't win by any means that would still allow us to say "We're Americans" without throwing up. We can win in Iraq, and we could have won in Vietnam, by committing genocide. Sociopathic advocates of mass murder are a large enough minority in our society that "pragmatists" are always going to advocate kissing up to them. Dean, rightfully, is refusing to do that.

Saying to Americans "we can't win" is the same as saying "You're a loser"...and most Americans don't want to hear that.

He'd have better off saying "the GOP has no plan to win" or the like. Instead he just needlessly reinforced that idiotic "Democrats don't support the troops/hate America" meme...

Is it to much to ask that the DNC chairman ACT like the DNC chairman and remember he's in front of the microphone to bring Americans into the party, not piss them off.?

We ARE losers. First time Howard Dean tells a lie, let me know. The problem with this goddamned country is that is it like a hypocritical little child that can't stand hearing the truth until you sugarcoat it just right. We cannot win this fucking illegal invasion. I will not dignify it by calling it a war. That is the truth whether we say so or not. So we might as well say so.

Perhaps if you progressive purists could restrain your America-bashing for even ten minutes, mainstream America might listen....

But who the fuck wants to hear that they're "a hypocritical little child that can't stand hearing the truth"?

Not surprising you think "We ARE losers"....

The longer we stay in this mess. At this point I do not CARE if people's feelings are hurt. Innocent people are dying on all sides while we debate where/why/how we got there, why we should stay there and how we get out of there. But we don't want to hurt folks by calling this nation what it is, a nation of hypocritical, imbecillic LOSERS.

Now go forth, get folks to prove me wrong and I'll be happy to be proven wrong. But we ain't getting anywhere looking for a sweet message that plays well in Peoria. If folks don't know lies and bullshit when they see them and cannot call a spade a spade there's no help for them anyway.

Nuff said. Thanks for nothing.

We haven't done anything positive for the world since the Marshall Plan. All we seem to be good at is screwing other nations out of their natural resources and screwing them out of their treasure and then when they don't want to play along, we attack them on some tricked-up pretense. But you never hear that in all the patriotic songs and flag waving and bible thumping. Its always someone picking on po' po' us....they hate us for our freedoms...and the sheep EAT IT UP! The cold war was even a load of horseshit to enrich the fucking defense contractors. So I am way past being another psalm singing fake for this abomination of a nation. When they live up to the Declaraton of Independence and the Constitition instead of paying lip service to it, I will stop the bashing. Till then I will point out the bad where I see it and believe me....business is GOOD!

"The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves..."

"the sheep EAT IT UP!"
Wow...hard to see how a powerful upbreat message like that doesn't reach voters (/sarcasm)....

we get happy talk from the goddamned Republicans and weak-assed Democrats. And a fat lot of good it has done us....in both Foreign Affairs AND Domestic ones as well.

Truth. Straight, no chaser is all that will stanch the bleeding here.

Want truth, straight, no chaser? You're no fucking help at all.

Or simply too harsh for America's delicate ears, minds and stomachs. Trying to sweeten the truth dilutes it. And increases the danger that all of us are in. But you keep reaching out to them and good luck to you, really.

Wonder why someone with such open contempt for the country he lives in stays here....

Why should I leave? I am not the one who sticks my head in the sand and pays lip service to some ideal that I do not truly wish to live and believe in like many of my countrymen do. And besides, I am not one of the lucky 1% of the population who can just do whatever they goddamned please like up and move to another country. But I will have truth in my own life when it comes to the conduct of this nation. If it is offensive and will not win friends, so be it. The love it or leave it argument is sooooooo right wing and lame.

"The love it or leave it argument is sooooooo right wing"
Bullshit. I'm not demanding you love it...but you insist on shouting that you hate it here.

especially when they hold all of us hostage. Big difference. Those who have despoiled and descecrated and generally have been bad citizens should leave long before me. I'm just not going to sit back and say...FINE BY ME!

You've been blatant in your contempt for them.

Forgot that one. Too much of that here too. That being the case then yeah, you might have a point about my hate. Don't see why I need to suffer because folks can't see and have to be spoonfed stuff so they don't get offended.

are we looking at a fender bender or a FUCKING TRAIN WRECK!!! It makes me sick to my stomach to see that we are still having discussions over the import of HOW Howard Dean SAYS what he SAYS!!!! That is beyond deranged, given the importance of the times. I know I am asking for the impossible, that folks become more responsible citizens by doing a little reading. Not as much as we do but SOME!! I am frustrated and I am tired of time wasting shit like worrying about how someones worldview is going to be shattered because Howard Dean said we cannot win this illegal invasion. Well guess what? We can't. He's right. By any rational measurement, he's RIGHT. So how do we help folks by continually spoonfeeding them eh? If my kid is going to touch a hot stove, I'm gonna smack their hands away and I am against corporal punishment. But you know what....THE WHOLE FUCKING HOUSE IS ON FIRE....and still we piddle about what Howard said. I am so sick of that.

to see the Democrats tagged again and again with the label "America haters" because some people are thoughtless and can't keep their yap shut for the good of the cause they're supposedly espousing.

"you know what....THE WHOLE FUCKING HOUSE IS ON FIRE...."
Sez you. And what does it say about someone who announces the whole house is on fire, yet sits around bitching and moaning about how much he hates the wallpaper and the furnishings?

And then see if any of them in the group have the collective sense enough to pour piss out of a boot with the directions on the heel. We also spend too fucking much time on folks who say stupid and incorrect things about us.

Anything else?

it's not an incorrect thing to say about "us." But then don't blame anybody else that "we're" unable to get our message across.

it wasn't til hurricane Katrina that people were shaken from the 'deep spell'

and ask yourself what is in any way "progressive" about that sort of sour bilge....

but that it will be up to the Iraqis themselves.

Gets the same point across without giving the spinmeisters something to distract the country about.

These are rookie mistakes, and Dean keeps making them.

Good post.

... and throws worthless snide remarks at everyone he disagrees with. What are Mr. Benchley's suggested solutions to the problems at hand, other than to attack other posters?

We're waiiiitttinnnnggg .....

'Nuff said. :eyes:

You're actually remarking aloud that you're amazed someone agrees with people he agrees with....

"What are Mr. Benchley's suggested solutions to the problems at hand"
We do as much damage control as we can, and try to keep Howard Dean focused on his job of bringing people over to the Democratic party. Having him blurt out "The war can't be won" was no fucking help to anyone but the GOP.

"snickers" a lot.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/31/politics/campaign/31bush.html?ei=5090&en=b257721394890931&ex=1251691200&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&adxnnlx=1133896668-y+cvuHYc9w0+vgVJg3qZ9g

Dean isn't saying anything that's not true. Bush said the same thing on August, 2004. He's flip-flopping now and says we need to win the war before we can pull out.

The Iraq war is just not winnable.

The Democrats are divided as to how soon we should pull out our troops. You can be assured that the Republicans will try to use the withdrawal to their political advantage. They'll keep their strategy a secret until right before the elections in 2006 to make it look like the Democrats had no plan at all.

They don't want to give Democrats any credit or have any bipartisan discussion with Democrats on setting a date for withdrawal.

Actually, when you get down to it that's pretty much the way the American people stand on the issue. We want our troops to come home but in the right way.

Dean is on the hot seat for being honest---again. Why do some people make such a big deal out of what Howard Dean says.

He gives the Democratic party badly needed life support.

Hooray for Howard Dean--he's nearly as inarticulate and stumble-tongued as pResident Duh!

"He gives the Democratic party badly needed life support."
While stepping on the oxygen tube with depressing regularity.

.... is playing double or nothing with this war. He is hoping against hope to salvage his reputation by accomlishing SOMETHING, ANYTHING in this war. He'll come up snake eyes, but why would he care, it costs him nothing to double up his bet.

He's already a lame duck (in addition to lame brain). I think he knows his position as the all-time worst president is already secure, so what's to lose??

You can criticize all you want, but if you don't think the Iraq mess is an apt comparison to Vietnam, you are way the hell out of your league pontificating on Howard Dean.

Deans job in all this is to be a lightning rod. Get people talking. To pretend we must "WIN" what is the most degenerate , evil, war for profit motive ever foisted upon the American public, well, how many more of our boys and girls do we have to kill before that is accomplished?

And how do you zealots even define "Win"?

Reminds me of the lesson of "Wargames"

THE ONLY WAY TO WIN IS NOT TO PLAY.

time to stop pretending to be Republican-lite in the Democratic Party

Admittedly, it's an unscientific poll, but it's nice to see nonetheless.

Poll here, lower right hand side:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq/

I'd be willing to bet that it's not too far off the mark considering how unpopular the war is according to every single scientifically valid poll that's out there.

So, in summation, there's nothing wrong w/ what Dean said. He saying exactly what needs to be said. Without him would CNN ever HAVE that poll question? No. He's masterfully framed the debate and gotten tons of attention to a question that needed to be asked "Can we win?". Everyone knows the answer to that question is "no", whether they want to admit it or not. Dean is merely speaking the truth and saying exactly what needs to be said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5528678

Yeah, there's nothing like fixing a poll to give us a good warm feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction......

"He's masterfully framed the debate "
Which is why his spokesperson are doing damage control.....

"Responding to Mehlman's broadside, Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney said that Republicans were "cherry-picking" Dean's words "just like they cherry-picked the pre-war intelligence."
"We can only win if the Iraqi people are able to play a greater role in peacekeeping, and we can only win if the president gives an honest assessment of what's really happening on the ground in Iraq," Finney said. "Staying the course and paying for good headlines are not a strategy. It's merely a bad excuse for not having a plan.""

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq/

Over 200k people from DU voted there huh? LOL! Too bad for you the numbers seem to coincide w/ numbers of people who now think the war was a shitty idea.

Good lord are you pathetic. I know, sucks to be so wrong and look so stupid, but there you are.

CNN would never even HAVE that poll if not for Dean. Good thing you're not in PR (as you are obviously not), you'd be miserable failure.

Hey Einstein, here's some more numbers from the new Quinnipiac poll:

Poll: Most voters want U.S. out of Iraq

A Quinnipiac University poll released Tuesday shows that 60 percent of voters favor withdrawing from Iraq and 54 percent believe going to war was wrong.

--snip--

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/connecticut/ny-bc-ct--poll-iraq1206dec06,0,7659856.story?coll=ny-region-apconnecticut

I guess they want us out because they think the war is so winnable. :rofl:

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!

Yeah, nothing like a fixed poll to give the fixers a nice warm feeling....

Guess I missed the question in the Quinnipiac poll that said "Can our troops win? Yes...No." Care to show it to us so we can see if the wording reflects Dean's statement?

NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- Most Americans think going to war was the wrong thing to do and want to see troops pulled out of Iraq, according to a new poll.

A Quinnipiac University poll released Tuesday shows that 60 percent of voters favor withdrawing from Iraq and 54 percent believe going to war was wrong.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/connecticut/ny-bc-ct--poll-iraq1206dec06,0,7659856.story?coll=ny-region-apconnecticut

--snip--

Only an idiot would think that these people would think the war was winnable. But hey, there you are! Because of Dean, I'm certain we'll see the "winnable" question in some upcoming polls and then you'll really look stupid. But keep hangin' in there!

"Only an idiot would think that these people would think the war was winnable."
Then you won't have any problem producing the poll that says EXACTLY that.

"Because of Dean, I'm certain we'll see the "winnable" question in some upcoming polls "
Hell, I'll bet that some political party will take out commercials highlighting the quote and even using the soundbite. It won't be the Democrats, though.

NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- Most Americans think going to war was the wrong thing to do and want to see troops pulled out of Iraq, according to a new poll.

A Quinnipiac University poll released Tuesday shows that 60 percent of voters favor withdrawing from Iraq and 54 percent believe going to war was wrong.

--snip--

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/connecticut/ny-bc-ct--poll-iraq1206dec06,0,7659856.story?coll=ny-region-apconnecticut

Yeah, I know, sucks to be you and to be on the wrong side of an issue. But there you are. Yes, all these people think going to war was the wrong thing because it's so winnable! LOL!

Funny you don't have a poll that says what YOU claim...

In fact, all thse polls YOU keep dragging up only serve to point up what an unfortunate choice of words Howard made...

"sucks to be you"
Not at all....I'm laughing uproariously at our "teen progressives" and their emptyheaded silliness.

It's wrong because it's so right! LOL!

CNN:

Can the United States 'win' the war in Iraq?

Yes, within two years 14% 27942 votes

Yes, but a long haul 25% 51068 votes

No 62% 126429 votes
Total: 205439 votes

Bwahahahahahahaah!

and not from your fixed poll.....

By the way, if Dean had said "more than half the country thinks we shouldn't have gone to war in the first place" nobody could have said "boo." But he didn't, and now his spokesperson is doing damage control.

Bwahahahaahahahahaah!

Can the United States 'win' the war in Iraq?

Yes, within two years 14% 27942 votes

Yes, but a long haul 25% 51068 votes

No 62% 126429 votes
Total: 205439 votes

Yeah, it's "fixed". LOL! How pathetic that that's all you can say. You sound like a desperate rightwing lunatic, why is that? Too funny.

What's also funny is that number matches up w/ the new Quinnipiac numbers, you know, the one's that make you look like a total idiot and that would suggest Dean is on firm footing w/ his comments?

Poll: Most voters want U.S. out of Iraq

NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- Most Americans think going to war was the wrong thing to do and want to see troops pulled out of Iraq, according to a new poll.

A Quinnipiac University poll released Tuesday shows that 60 percent of voters favor withdrawing from Iraq and 54 percent believe going to war was wrong.

--snip--

Ha Ha!

"A Quinnipiac University poll released Tuesday shows that 60 percent of voters favor withdrawing from Iraq and 54 percent believe going to war was wrong."
And nobody said "the war can't be won" because the pollsters thought about the questions before they asked it.

Sure wish Dean had thought before he opened his potato trap--then maybe this spokesperson wouldnt have to do damage control.

LOL! That's what you're saying. Do you realize how stupid that is?

:rofl:

Keep squirming boy.

Can the United States 'win' the war in Iraq?

Yes, within two years 14% 27942 votes

Yes, but a long haul 25% 51068 votes

No 62% 126429 votes
Total: 205439 votes

Bwhahahahahaah! Man, how much does it suck to be you and look so stupid?

And that's why Dean's spokesperson is out doing damage control...

Bwhahahahaahahaha! :rofl:

bwa ha ha indeed.

Poll: Most voters want U.S. out of Iraq

NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- Most Americans think going to war was the wrong thing to do and want to see troops pulled out of Iraq, according to a new poll.

A Quinnipiac University poll released Tuesday shows that 60 percent of voters favor withdrawing from Iraq and 54 percent believe going to war was wrong.

--snip--

Sucks for you Chester, I know, but this war is unpopular. It wouldn't be unpopular if people thought we could win.

"ucks for you Chester, I know, but this war is unpopular."
That's not what sucks for me, child. What sucks for me is that the national debate about an unpopular war and what to do now that we're stuck in it got sidetracked because our party chairman blurted out somethuing idiotic in public AGAIN.

Especially now that the focus is on the question "Is the war winnable?", thanks to Dr. Dean.

instead of where it ought to be....on an unpopular war and how to get out of it.

Only to you. I guess CNN would have run that poll "Is the war winnable?" if Dean had just kept his yap shut? :rofl:

Do yourself a favor, stay out of PR, you haven't got the knack.

The focus of a lot of them, in red states and blue, is on Dean and other stupid things he's said. Not the war.

"I guess CNN would have run that poll "Is the war winnable?" if Dean had just kept his yap shut?"
Let's see what reputable polls do, and what results they get before you start patting yourself on the back

Is being discussed everywhere. That's a victory, Einstein. In case you haven't noticed, the war is NOT popular. Get a clue, the discussion is a GOOD thing, except for idiot bushbots. Makes me wonder why YOU don't want that discussion to happen.

in some quarters, while "Are Democrats traitors who hate the troops?" is being discsussed in others.

"Makes me wonder why YOU don't want that discussion to happen."
Perhaps because I wanted to keep the focus actually on the war, and not on what nonsense Howward Dean blurted out in public today.

Can the United States 'win' the war in Iraq?

Yes, within two years 14% 28297 votes

Yes, but a long haul 25% 51482 votes

No 62% 127697 votes
Total: 207476 votes

Bwahahahahahahaahahah!

:rofl:

Traitors who hate the troops? good god, you fell into that one all on your own. oldest meme in the books. if you don't see that the majority want to pull out now has to do with the fact that is unwinnable you're just blind. yet you can make the leap and call Dems traitors- that somehow makes sense to you. you sound like faux news to me. funny stuff.

a "fact".

And, then are foolish enough to flaunt it.

Sad.

I helped to fix a poll? How did I do that? That's a pretty stupid thing to say. I know it's not scientific, so what? He asked for a poll with that question, I gave it to him. Sucks for him that it doesn't support him.

There's also this poll. I suppose all these people think the war is winnable, but somehow think it was wrong and want us out? LOL! Yeah, ok. :eyes:

Poll: Most voters want U.S. out of Iraq

NEW HAVEN, Conn. -- Most Americans think going to war was the wrong thing to do and want to see troops pulled out of Iraq, according to a new poll.

A Quinnipiac University poll released Tuesday shows that 60 percent of voters favor withdrawing from Iraq and 54 percent believe going to war was wrong.

--snip--

You people live in bizarro world.

And you're still failing at it.

His point was idiotic. Obviously you and him fail to grasp mine. Surprise, surprise. :eyes:

Here's my original post, point and all, since you're obviously either too lazy or vapid to have read it:

Admittedly, it's an unscientific poll, but it's nice to see nonetheless.

Poll here, lower right hand side:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq /

I'd be willing to bet that it's not too far off the mark considering how unpopular the war is according to every single scientifically valid poll that's out there.

So, in summation, there's nothing wrong w/ what Dean said. He saying exactly what needs to be said. Without him would CNN ever HAVE that poll question? No. He's masterfully framed the debate and gotten tons of attention to a question that needed to be asked "Can we win?". Everyone knows the answer to that question is "no", whether they want to admit it or not. Dean is merely speaking the truth and saying exactly what needs to be said.

Emoticons and "bwaahaashaas" are not a point. They're aren't even rational. Much like fixed online polls aren't.

What online polls are good for is to lure gullible, childish internet surfers into hitting the website a few hundred thousand times (more for those surfers without a life) and thus making it possible to raise advertising rates. The websites salute you!

Again, my original post. Maybe you'll read it this time.

Admittedly, it's an unscientific poll, but it's nice to see nonetheless.

Poll here, lower right hand side:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/06/dean.iraq /

I'd be willing to bet that it's not too far off the mark considering how unpopular the war is according to every single scientifically valid poll that's out there.

So, in summation, there's nothing wrong w/ what Dean said. He saying exactly what needs to be said. Without him would CNN ever HAVE that poll question? No. He's masterfully framed the debate and gotten tons of attention to a question that needed to be asked "Can we win?". Everyone knows the answer to that question is "no", whether they want to admit it or not. Dean is merely speaking the truth and saying exactly what needs to be said.

Are you easily distracted by bright, shiny things as well? Just wondering....

Or were you reading something else? You really do live in bizarro world.

I think you're right. :crazy:

You've got so much to say! How profound!

And to think, I used to jeer at freepers when they ran around the internet pimping polls that they had freeped as fact.

Or, maybe it's not that amazing but rather sad.

Is your sock puppet. Sad. Really sad.

1) the truth and
2) the direction the country is headed in?
Uh, no thanks, you can keep your wimpy ass old school DLC way of doing things, because that's important wo do when your talking about war.
he's speaking up for me and mine just fine.

Of course Dean is right!

And yes, I'm a few years older than Dean and I remember ALL of the Vietnam saga.

Even my husband, who is about the most non-political person I know, says this is just another Vietnam! We'll NEVER win!

we wouldn't to have gone down the 'support stupid war' road in the 2004 election. The knives were out for Dean right from the start.

No one cares what Dean said. I know it is all over RW radio but as bad as they have framed it (and what Kerry said on "Face the Nation" ) no one is paying it any mind. No MSM coverage of it that I have actually seen.

Didn't happen. Move on.

If nothing else, you ought to think about this. When "Howard Dean says the Democrats can't win the war either", he's as much as told the voter, why bother to vote for Democrats? As the old commercial said, "Why trade a headache for an upset stomach?"

ntj

This is more of the same from the DLC.

he speaks for me.

like always and the Bushies and others in the media just can't stand it.

There's nothing wrong at all with what he said. Oh how the republicans would like to be rid of him.
He speaks to the truth, something they know nothing about.