The most important statement Dean made:

And it got plenty of play. It got enough play for even the most insulated DC Democrats to hear it. This is what is happening. This is why I got so upset over Harry Reid's comments on CNN today. They said the same damn thing back then. I remember it. My friends lost husbands and fiancees, and I lost friends. But they all kept saying we were winning and all would be well.




Harry Reid said absolutely this war is winnable.

And that would be a total of 54,000 US troops, and over a million Vietnamese.

he has evolved from the way he felt about our being in Iraq.

He was saying ..we are there now ..we have to fix it. But, I think it's clear that he thinks Jack Murtha is right.."The Soldiers have done everything we've asked them to and it's time to bring them home."

a vietnam vet, has been saying a long time Iraq is just like Vietnam. I always silently questioned that statement but I fully agree now. Conservatives just hate
losing war. To them war is a football game to be won.

Another old timer who rremembers all too well Westmoreland's weekly pronouncements of impending victory.

:kick::hi::headbang::hi::headbang::hi::headbang::hi::hi::headbang::hi::headbang::hi:


:hi::headbang::hi::headbang::hi::headbang::hi::hi::headbang::hi::headbang::hi::headbang::hi:

it is like Vietnam --

What is it going to take to wake up fools like Reid?

Somehow I find it ironic that many of these jerks are also anti-choice.

Kill the Iraqis until they kneel down and praise God --

What the hell does "win" mean -- passive Indians on a Reservation?? oops I mean Iraqis on a reservation.

If I did not remember Vietnam, I might not feel as strongly. But I remember LBJ and his good old boy Texas accent talking about how it was going to be ok.

I am convinced that the "DC Dems" are no different from the repukkkes when they disagree with their own party chair.

As for that parasite known as the dlc, well I know they are just a bunch of losers from the Lindsey/Rockefeller/Romney wing of the repukkke party.

:hi: from a fellow Dean supporter!!

What the heck is wrong that he thinks 25,000 US soldiers died in Vietnam? I was an infant during Vietnam and even I know it was over 50,000

hadn't "stayed the course" in Nam.

"this policy cost the lives of an additional 25,000 troops"

What anyone is talking about, when they speak about winning in Iraq? WHAT IN THE HELL ARE WE TRYING TO WIN?? IS there some kind of prize awarded to whomever comes out on top??? IS the soil grand, is the water crystal clear and pure, are the people willing to get along and work together? Is there running water, electricity, jobs, a great vacation land, or land of opportunity for us all...WHAT EXACTLY???

We can win Militarily??? HOW?..short of nuking them all..?? by staying long enough to build permanent bases, so we never leave...just like VN, the troops don't even know who their enemies ARE, until it's too late...and those damned bullets they are dodging are REAL..is Iraq worth all the bloodshed...??

We can win Economically??? HOW?? Obviously, AT OUR EXPENSE HERE?.. we have one entire city and a whole geographical area devastated by a hurricane, with tens of thousands that we can't even help, along with poor/sick/young/elderly that need help and don't qualify...people losing their homes,w/o food, warmth, jobs..but I guess the prize is worth the billions of dollars it's costing us??

Politically..??? HAH, this must be the real prize we are after..I know, we are going to make Iraq, the 52nd state..we will elect them a Governor, and let them have Senators/Congressmen, and then they can VOTE in our rigged elections..and for that privilege they will give us all their oil, right? Is it possible that our politicians believe we still suffer under the delusion that we invaded, to LIBERATE the Iraqi's and bring them Democracy..at the same time, our own is being stolen right out from under us??...The Iraq "war" IS a political war, just like Vietnam was...a war for/and run by the politicians...the intent never was to win Vietnam, and the same is true for Iraq...the saddest thing is, that no one told the valiant warriors they were being had...that this is just a fairy tale about an ego trip that someone took, to outdo their daddy...

I am so confused, after all the reading I have done today, about Dean said this, Reid said that, and how this hurt and that hurt the Dems...the MOBILE register says the DNC should remove DEAN as party chair...Matalin says that by mid term elections in 2006, DEAN will no longer be the DNC chair(who told her? Carville?)...WHAT IN BLOODY HELL IS GOING ON??? and do we care what the Mobile Register or Matalin thinks about DEAN?...and Reid, I don't understand what's going on there...but all the bullshit I hear, confirms that DEAN is getting under the R's skin...is he undermining what Reid has done??? I don't have a clue, but it wouldn't be the first time, that old politicians have gotten pissed off because someone younger than they, had the gall to add their two cents to the discourse...

I am sick and tired of members of our party being afraid to SPEAK OUT, hearing how everything has to be 100% PC...or else so and so should just sit down/shut up and remember what their jobs are...well perhaps every Democratic politician that we ELECTED to REPRESENT US, SHOULD have remembered, when pushing Bush's agenda, WHAT their jobs were, WHO elected THEM..and acted accordingly...and in the FUTURE try to understand that when the R's whine, and it results in one Dem attacking another Dem...that this IS EXACTLY what the R's are after...they sit around in the dark, laughing their asses off at our apparent stupidity, for once again falling into the trap they set..

Mayhaps someone could explain to me, WHY do we keep playing into their hands...and WHY do we keep allowing them to call the shots...and I still want someone to tell me what the hell we might win in Iraq...(rant over, sorely pissed tonight over all this)
windbreeze

That is what is going on. The ones who want the war to continue as an oil war or a neocon paradise with all kinds of new industries...a grand experiment....they are the ones who have the money.

That gives them the power.

:hi:

"Harry Reid said absolutely this war is winnable."

That's not true. CANDY CROWLEY--a known RW mediawhore--claims that's what Reid said. Unless you were present and heard it for yourself, you are being dishonest in making this flat statement

In fact, you have started multiple threads on the basis of what is clearly Rovian media manipulation. Why are you doing this?

"I can tell you that, first of all, when you ask him directly is this war winnable, Senator Reid says absolutely."

Since it can be interpreted two ways quite easily, I will call his office or email them tomorrow and ask for a clarification.

I would think you guys would be happy now, Dean fell in line tonight in Florida.

giving more credence to Candy Crowley and to a REPUBLICAN television spot than to a man you claim to "love and admire?"

I have clarified until I am blue in the face. I doubt she would have been so blatant about saying it that way..

it that way."

How about the Swift Boat bunch? Do you also "doubt they would have been so blatant about saying it that way?"

And if you "love and respect" Harry Reid so much, why didn't you check with his office BEFORE you started multiple threads clearly meant to give the false impression that you yourself heard Reid say what Crowley says he said?

in the spitting contest. I made my points fairly. It's yours.

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She's utterly reliable. Or something.

by email or some way. I love the man, and I will defend him if he does that.

I said in another post that I call congressional offices and campaign offices trying to see if the media is spinning....BUT if they don't stand up for themselves and answer, well there is not much to do.

So I won't be looking for Reid to issue a denial. If he had to issue denials about every lie told about prominent democrats, he'd never have time to be the Senate Minority Leader.

I don't trust her either, but this was pretty convincing. Instead of spending time correcting me for quoting CNN, we need to find out from Reid.

Did you see that I had offered to call his office? Well, I did.

because she is so craven. And they take her silliness with a grain of salt.

Most people.

And, of course, I never "corrected (you) for quoting CNN."

If you don't think I am right about what Harry Reid said, then do what I am going to do....call him. Ask.

And other democrats....not to hear him "defend" himself against a silly, three second non-sound byte disseminated by Candy Crowley. Sen. Reid's record is quite clear on these issues.

And Crowley's record vis-a-vis the truth is also quite clear.

Or does that matter.

He will issue a statement and a press release. It won't happen when Candy Crowley says it. His position is perfectly clear and a matter of public record.

I sincerely don't have it at hand.

Lots of press statements there about Iraq, Voting rights, Menendez, the Sept 11th Commission, etc. His site is more reliable than anything Candy Crowley might say he said.

That some would think otherwise is sad. So sad.

I gave the quote, she said she asked him.

Despite the Sen. Reid's established, published position.

Candy's record is well-known. It's so sad some would believe her knowing her record. So sad indeed.

Twist and spin.

Candy offers a bunch of baloney, spinning Democrats' words until they are unreccognizable. How sad it is that some would take her word over that of Sen. Reid? Sad indeed.

buttercup.

she always gets an ugly gross look on her face when reporting on Democrats. the green tea wasn't even the worse of it. in that CNN special on Kerry she made him appear as if he was just out for himself and some overly ambitious type that goes after wealthy women.

while she made the Chimp out to be someone who was being called on some special mission for the people.

fuck her.

....Dean fell in line tonight in Florida.

All the ones who jumped him, Reid correcting him on CNN same day...it will be spun the way I said it.

He is saying the same thing he said in San Antonio, but because he changed a few words....heads are not twisting in the wind.

differently. I knew when I heard how it was said that we'd have a backlash. Part of what Dean needs to do is not only tell the truth, but do so with "butta." I love Dean but he needs some more "butta." ;)

Reid and Dean are both very good eggs.

I think Dean should have said "we can't win this war militarily" as I'm sure that's what he meant. But, instead he implied that the good ol' US of A, can't win a war (in any way) against a small middle eastern country. tsk tsk. I bet he'll clarify his remarks soon. Dean is right to say we can't "win" technically, because were in a lose/lose situation, but we can NOT state our position in this manner IMHO.

Peace all.

Oh, he was quite good. I posted it here somewhere from Florida...Everyone can relax now, Howard has entered the party fold now. After the public warning from Reid today, he was really quite good.

having to do so. As I said if Dean had worded his position in the way Murtha did, no clarification would have been necessary.

I don't feel his statements in florida were about falling in line, I simply think he had to re-articulate his position - and I knew he would.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-dean1005dec10,0,3064167.story?track=rss

However, you can bet Dean got a spike in donations when he said "we can't win the war" so it's not all bad. ;)

I don't think people realize what they are doing when they demand groupspeak.

I think many do it without really thinking. There is nothing Dean has said or done to harm our country, yet his every word is monitored.

It is too overboard, and we lost an important voice to groupspeak.

Dean could have made his initial point without emboldening the Rovian spin machine.

Like I said, if he'd used Murtha's "we can't win militarily" meme, he could have said what needed to be said, without all the BS Rove flap?

Further, I don't think we've lost his voice at all, he's been doing great. He's been saying what needs to be said and saying it HOW it needs to be said - overall. He had one slip in months that caused an unnecessary stir. This is what happens in the end. It's a lose lose for us. The Republicans got their distraction, and we in the end are pissed at Dean for "clarifying" his remarks. None of this need be.

However, as I said, I think he's doing fabulous, and this will blow over by next week.

:hug:

This is for real, now. This is not about nice pretty words. He told the truth in San Antonio.

This is a real battle, and DU is just a silly playground for it.

But when I see folks like you saying he only had "one slip" in months, I think the battle is lost. I see the party "meme" is working quite well.

I don't suggest nice pretty words, I only suggest THOUGHTFUL ones. "When I see folks like you" - I resent that statement MF, I think for myself, you should know that by know. Further, I had concerns about Dean's statment BEFORE the flap, because I knew he should have stated things in a different manner.

He is now being forced to watch every word, just like every other politician on the planet.

We have lost a lot because everyone wants proper words. I don't think you realize that.

If you heard the speech, the full audio, and you still think he was wrong in the way he said it...then that's too bad.

He said the very same thing last night, on CNN the other morning..that he said there.

But proper speak won and it will win. And soon we will all be spouting a bunch of words that mean nothing. And I am the bad guy here for all that.

what needs to be said in a prudent manner.

You are not the bad guy, I just think too many of us are short sighted - looking for red meat and not looking at what and how the Bushies are waiting to pounce on our every word. We have got to say things in a manner that can't be so easilly twisted. The original statement Dean made could give them the leverage they need to bring back public support of the war. That is BAD news for everyone. Murtha has been saying what needs to be said for sometime, but his remarks could not be placed on a billboard with the "white flag" ~ American's CAN'T win image.

I did not listen to the whole speech MF, perhaps if I had, I would feel differently? I tried your link and it did not work. But, regardless - Dean clarified his remarks (for a reason) and your upset with him for doing so, correct?

They will twist anything we say, they have done it for years. I think a lot of it is pure fear of attacks. Wben our own party demands that words be vetted so carefully, we are in trouble.

Here is a link to the audio, try this one. He had as usual to talk over a guy who is spouting talking points...he held his own.

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=C36A87B9-63A0-4CDE-AA91-B41571AFD3AF

When we demand that words be pre-approved, there will not be much truth getting out.

You keep changing what I said in order to change the terms of the debate.

Here is my position. Tell me what your issue is with this:

(Speak the truth in a manner that can't be twisted.)

I'm sorry but this statement is not an example of what I speak of: "idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong," WE know what he was trying to say, WE will listen to the audio and get context - most American's won't.

Dean should have said something like: "the idea that this corrupt administration has a plan to win the war, is just plain wrong" or "the idea that we can win this war with military might vs. diplomacy is wrong" but you DON'T SAY we can't win - period. It's not rocket science MF.

I'm listening to the audio, if I change my mind, I'll letcha know.

Edited to add: Dean did a fantastic job on that interview overall. And, anyone can and will have statements twisted, however my original thoughts on this have not changed.

We should have said it during Vietnam, and many more lives would have been saved.

We don't save lives by saying things in a manner that will bolster the opposition. By doing so, we allow them to change the terms of the debate - thus distracting from issues of life and death. After all, we are focused on Dean's remarks - and not the war itself right now - which is my point.

"smart" statements, true statements, and talking points.

We got smart talked to death on our side, idiot talked to death from the GOP..and they won it all.

I will take clear and honest anytime.

I don't think the party will permit it to happen.

Dean differentiated between smart statements and some not so smart statements, thus his clarification.

Peace

Too bad a clear voice is not as good as a careful voice

one needn't choose between clarity and caution. ;)

Fake caution is dangerous. Dean knows that.

Dean knows that.

Peace MF

We just disagree.

We do.

I do agree that the totality of Dean's appearance on the show in question was awesome. I give him a 90% performance rating. ;)

If you didn't the full audio is still up. Actually he said a lot more than that. But he was good tonight, a good boy.

:hi:

report on the hostilities in Vietnam (it wasn't being called a war yet) . . . it was my first really thorough research report ever (as thorough as you can be using a high school library, anyhow), and though I don't remember all that much about it, I do remember the quote that I used to end the report . . . it was Gen. Westmoreland saying "We see the light at the end of the tunnel" -- not realizing, of course, that the light was an oncoming train . . . this was 1962, and that phrase was used repeatedly in the next several years by both the Johnson and Nixon administrations . . .

We are repeating the mistakes we made in Vietnam and that the Russians made in Afganistan.

There are two alternatives.

Alternative 1: Do what Murtha, Kerry, Feingold and others have suggested--a phased relatively quick, orderly, withdrawal and redeployment in force to neighboring countries and let the Iraqis deal with an insurgency that is largely fueled by our presence.

Alternative 2: Do what we failed to do the first time--go into Iraq with enough troops to secure these major cities and the borders and defeat the insurgents militarily. That would require an immense investment in manpower and money. We would have to reinstate the draft, raise taxes and move the country onto a wartime footing. We would also have to be willing to take the international heat for our actions. If you truly believe that this war is necessary than you should be calling for a real victory and willing to defend your position. Otherwise you are just feeding your constituents happy talk and patriotic claptrap.

I doubt if few if any congresscritters are going to have the guts to call for Alternative 2. Therefore Alternative 1 is the best option.

talking of the Irag war (last week in his earlier comments). In Florida he specifically referred to the 'war on terror"-----said to redeploy the troops (out of Iraq)--to where alquida et all are. Lets not confuse the two like the Repugs have.


.....We are repeating the mistakes we made in Vietnam and that the Russians made in Afganistan.

Evidently not, since you continue to smear Harry Reid with falsehoods.

If Crowley lied about Reid, he "should send out the word to us....by email or some way." Because Harry Reid has nothing better to do than to focus on the many lies Candy Crowley blithely disseminates on Friday afternoons.

lovely.

"Alert" is your friend with this,madfloridian. Credit you for your patience. :-)'s

CROWLEY: "I can tell you that, first of all, when you ask him directly is this war winnable, Senator Reid says absolutely."

Hey all of you jumping on me for what is in the CNN transcript...found out for yourselves and get back to me.

Now,this is an important issue. It has nothing to do with whether Benchley likes or hates Madfloridian.. a moot issue.

If this is true, then the leader of our party is saying we can win a war we have already lost. And he chastised the party chair in public for saying he can't be won.

I hope he clarifies. I will call his office to check. I am giving the quote.

But gee, Benchley, I thought you would have a good day...they even have Howard Dean spouting war on terror talk. Maybe you aren't aware yet.

"Now,this is an important issue. "
No it's not...it's you misbehaving again.

:evilgrin:

which is fine--as long as you don't cry when your own fingers get burned.

I defended my post.

:-)'s

because the "Vichy" exist to placate those who "have the power," not those who will eventually get the power.

:hi:

There are no answers because of the way they are worded..then they say I mislead. Unbelievable.

On the Campaign Trail

"Bush Tones Down Talk of Winning Terror War"
In Tour of Swing States on Way to GOP Convention, President Elaborates on Goal of Fighting

By Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 31, 2004; Page A06
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47707-2004Aug30.html

"Bush has given a spate of interviews in the run-up to this week's Republican National Convention in New York, and he was asked by Matt Lauer of NBC's "Today" show, in an interview taped Saturday in Ohio and shown on the convention's opening day, if the war on terrorism can be won.

"I don't think you can win it," Bush said. "But I think you can create conditions so that those who use terror as a tool are less acceptable in parts of the world. Let's put it that way.""

Does this statement reveal President Bush's unwillingness to win in Iraq or does it reveal that he does not know how to win in Iraq? If Iraq is the front line in the war on terror and the war on terror is unwinnable according to the President, then how is the war in Iraq winnable. That raises a serious dilemma: either the President must retract his statement about Iraq being central to the war on terror or must retract his statement about the war on terror being unwinnable. Despite his Administration's spin to the contrary, though, the President's policy has not changed over the year since stating the war's being unwinnable. Perhaps the Bush Administration's view converges more with Representative Murtha's than it is willing to admit.

And this is nonsense! We won this war long ago. Our soldiers need to come home and let the Iraqis run their own country now. If the Iraqis choose to kill each other, then they will.

We overthrew a dictator. Was that the mission? If so, then we have, indeed, won the war. If we are hell bent on rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure, then there's a long way to go before that dog hunts.

you know the rest