The problem for Dems pushing for Iraq withdrawal.

Sure, I absolutely agree that we should not be and should never have gone into Iraq, but Democrats now face a problem with pinning their hopes for taking over congress on just opposition to the war.

With his popularity low, and with public support for the war slipping lower with each american death, Lil Boots will have no option, and we will for sure see withdrawals probably starting in the spring. At that point, Democrats will have lost any chance to take over congress, because the repugnants will turn it around on them and say "see, we did it, so are you now opposing withdrawal?".

Once again the Repugs will have strategically defeated the Democrats and we will be stuck with at least two more years of a republican government. How much more damage can they do in that time, and will there be any remnant of the United States left to save by that time?

So it's apparent that pinning our hopes on a 'get out of Iraq' message is a plan for defeat. It's my belief that Democrat strategy should be based not on Iraq itself, but on the secrecy and lies this administration and the republicans in general have used on the American people to achieve and hold power. Use the 'Culture of Corruption' mantra, but use it as a general heading to emphasize all the different ways we have been hornswaggled, and let them build so that everywhere the people turn they are faced with republican lies and corruption.

And there's so much to use against them.

The reason Boy Bush opposes Kyoto? It's not the economy. They are ALL OILMEN! They'll lose money.

And how about that new word in the lexicon: Rendition. For TORTURE! Americans Torturing People. Who'd ever have thunk it? NAZIs do that, not Americans!

It won't take advanced math to count all the repug politicians caught in corruption. It's time to shove it in their faces. And if one or two dems get caught in that net, well they deserve it.

Talk about how all the corruption stems from our election laws that let lobbyists buy the loyalty of politicians, and how Conneticut(?) has passed a law requiring all elections in the state to be only publicly financed, removing the profit motive from politics. This is one thing most Americans are ready for.

I say right now that unless Democrats widen their stance against the repugnant republicans, and get off the 'out of Iraq' mantra, we will not regain control of government, and in fact become a party with virtually NO support among the people.

Now is the time when we can regain some control, and if we don't, there will, in effect be NO democratic party.

My opinion, yours may vary. Let's have some discussion. What do YOU think?

is that going INTO Iraq has created a host of problems that now will be made even worse by simply getting out of Iraq. Without a plan to deal with those problems, simply "getting out " is not going to be a winning strategy. The Republicans ARE going to have some sort of pullout by election time, and the question will be which party has the better strategy for the future. Simply sitting around saying "we todl you so" won't cut it.

You're right...corruption and torture are much better issues to beat the drum about. Both revolt most Americans on a visceral level. (I had a Republican neighbor volunteer to me out of the blue the other night that he thinks Cunningham should be tied to a stake and shot for TREASON.)

Think about this...we didn't have to torture Nazis or the Japanese to win World War 2...and they had armies that were bigger than ours and had already taken over most of the world when we got into the war.

Republican corporations still control voting and, more importantly, vote tabulations . . .

"It's not who votes that counts; it's who counts the votes" . . .

There are many other issues, as you point out.
But that is no reason to shut up about the war,
which is a perfectly good issue, too, and a very
important one.

and my own feeling is that it was inevitable, that sooner or later Hussein would have kicked the bucket and all hell would have broken loose. Yes, if we start the withdrawal now, their civil war will appear to escalate. However, staying there will only prolong the whole thing and result in more death and destruction than just getting it over and done with. The Iraqi people are exhausted by a prolonged war against Iran, a war over Kuwait, a decade of sanctions, and three years of anticolonial resistance. Their civil war will likely be a short one.

No, the US will not like the government that finally arises and neither will Israel. The very best we can do for those people, though, is quietly dealing with that government to deliver rebuilding supplies so that the Iraqis themselves can get to work rebuilding their own country, something that should have been done at the very beginning.

Our only alternative is to repeat the hubris of Vietnam, that more money, bombs, bullets and wasted lives will win this war. The lesson of Vietnam should have been that a people who have next to nothing will fight to keep it and will generally win over a long enough time. The chickenhawks running our government missed that lesson.

...the failed Iraq policy, the failure to protect our soldiers in the field with adequate equipment, the lack of planning for the aftermath, the torture, the ever widening circle of corruption that is engulfing the Republican party, the disdain for the environment, the fact that *all* of Bush's policies are driven by politics, including Kyoto... all of it.

But we do NOT need to let up on the need for withdrawal from Iraq, we need to formulate a reasonable plan that would include international peacekeepers, etc., and we need to hammer them on the bad decisions that got us there and the bad decisions that have hampered any hopes we might have had for saving the situation once we were there -- resulting in more deaths of our soldiers and Iraqi civilians, more instability in the area and more terrorists in the Middle East.

So please, *don't* suggest that we "get off the 'out of Iraq' mantra". We need to truly use all of it!

The public widely supports bringing our troops home soon. And the liberals WERE right about the war all along, yet Kerry lost the election because he did not take a stance on the war (any stance, really). What we need is a principle and to stick with it. And getting out of Iraq is not only a noble principle--it is one that Americans already support.

... bringing the troops home in the spring, so it's not going to be a good talking point anymore once they start coming home. By then it will be too late for us unless the dems have something else to beat the repugs over the head with, and corruption will be a good one.

"pinning their hopes for taking over congress on just opposition to the war."
The war is important but I think the main thing Democrats are pinning their hopes on is that Republicans are corrupt and the corruption is so pervasive even the most retarded can see and understand it. The "war" is just a part of that corruption..