Who siad this?

""Burning or destroying an American flag is a despicable act that disrespects the sacrifices of our brave veterans and soldiers who fought to protect the very freedom of speech that flag burners exploit"


That's right. It was Hillary. Un-fricking-believable. I won't vote for this right wing nut job under any circumstances.

Sorry Hillary but no one 'exploits' the First Amendment. It's very clear from your asinine statement that you have no concept of freedom or understanding of the rights that are enumerated in the first ten amendments.

be honest, now... :-)

She isnt looking for a first amendment fight, but she is trying to pull over some of the morons who think its bad. Any vet will probably tell you they dispise flag burners, but fought for the right to do it. Its a pathetic move really.

Why is it always a political self-serving move when it comes to her but when it's some other politician, someone who's got no opinion on it or someone who's vague, it's fine and dandy as long as it's someone who's popular on this forum?

It pits patriotism versus individual rights and freedom of expression. flag burners are patriots, no one has the right to judge them otherwise. Land of the "free", home of the "brave" remember? The flag is a symbol, to some it means blind faith and ethnocentrism, to others its a symbol of oppression. People who freak when someone actually uses a guaranteed right need to get over their hangup. The world does not revolve around you. Or Hilary for that matter. She just lost a ton of my respect. But thats just me.

is the same as Hillary's. Or does the world just revolve around Hillary when it comes to picking what the far right and the far left love to bash out of their minds. The world doesn't revolve around extremism.

:rofl::rofl:

that I referred to was their position on flag desecration, not everything else. Maybe you could request a copy of Reading Comp 101 for Christmas if you see Santa in a store today. Hope that helps. :smoke:

Even sponsored a Constitutional amendment with Duke Cunningham. Funny we never hear the "teen progressives" call Murtha a DINO, isn't it...seeing what brave independent "thinkers" they are?

It's like there's a competition between the rightwing jerkoffs and the so-called "progressive" teeny boppers over who can misprepresent her the most. Right now I'd say the boppers are winning!

I think that's very unfair to do that to any politician.

By the way, it's depressing to see you degrade yourself
with such personal attacks when your "logic" is questioned.

One other thing. That was no personal attack by me upon you, even though you asked for one with your feeble attempt at mischaracterizing the meaning of my initial post about their "positions" on the flag. I was just trying to help you out with a nice suggestion being it's the holiday season and all. BTW, did you say hello to Santa for me?

:spray:

said it's not, it's "just the one thing", and now you say it's not that either. And you claim I have trouble with comprehension.

problems as well. Or maybe that wasn't you but a ventriloquist hacker back in post #29 who implied that I said Howard Dean is just like Hillary, even though I never ever suggested anything remotely like that. Or maybe your next door neighbor sneaked in and posted under your handle in post #29 when you weren't looking.

All I suggested, and I can't believe I have to waste my time explaining this AGAIN, is that their positions ON FLAG BURNING are the same. But go ahead and continue with your feeble attempts at twisting what I suggested into something you WISH that I said or implied. Good luck trying. HAHAHAHA!!!!

Burning a flag isn't exploiting our first amendment rights and disrespecting our veterans, lying to start a war is exploiting our first amendment rights and disrespecting our veterans.

I am not at all offended by flag burning. However, I am offended by cheap political tricks used by politicians to try and gain the favor of intollerant people.
I would also add, why is this even an issue? I mean, how many flags have been burned in protest recently? Is there an epidemic of these burnings going on of which I am unaware?

over commercialization of the flag? To me, that's more of an insult than someone burning the flag for political speech. The flag is burned when it is ruined or desecrated which is how it is supposed to be disposed, but using the flag commercially is far more of an insult. Also, Hitler had a flag burning law--the flag is a symbol that is a representation of our beliefs-when those beliefs are compromised, then what does it represent?

The only difference between cross burning and flag burning is that the cross doesn't represent all Americans--the flag does.

I am a veteran and I fought in the first Gulf War. IT does not show me any disresepect. To me it's just an attempt on her part to create an issue where one doesn't exist for political gain. As far as I know there hasn't been a slew of flag burnings going on -- I'm willing to guess it's been 0 (zero) since 1996. This is an issue where she is pandering to a certain group of people by playing on cheap patriotism. The Constitution represents all Americans, it is where we get our freedoms and it's meddling with it for political gain where we lose our freedoms -- not from the flag.

"IT does not show me any disresepect. "
Fine, you get all of your fellow citizens to sign off on that and I'll consider it.

"The Constitution represents all Americans"
So does the flag.

BRING ME THE HEAD OF THE POSTMASTER GENERAL! Where does it stop, nobody knows..... Freedom and liberty should always win over oppression. People need to get out of the "limiting rights" mode of thought and back into the "expanding rights" mode of thought. If you are offended by flag burning then its your problem, not the flag burners. My actions cannot control your emotions, you control your emotions. People need to emotionally grow the f*** up.

You probably won't hear much about it because it was done by the right wing's darlings, the Cubans in Miami. They went on a flag burning spree to protest the rescue of Elian Gonzales from his crazy relatives. The right wingers who normally get so upset about that kind of thing were too caught up in the hysteria of the moment to notice that flag burning was happening.

It is inappropriate for a free people to be trained to unthinking subordination and obedience.
The flag does not represent me. It represents the authoritarian power of the state.

Nobody worships the flag. It is a symbol, not an idol.

"It represents the authoritarian power of the state."
Bullshit.

"Dean, one of seven Democratic presidential candidates to address the Arab American Institute's national leadership conference in Dearborn, pointed to an American flag and named some of the people he said it did not belong to.
"It does not belong to General Boykin, or John Ashcroft, or Rush Limbaugh or Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson," the former Vermont governor said to cheers in the packed hotel conference room in the Detroit suburb which is home to one of the highest concentrations of Muslims and Arabs outside the Middle East.
"This flag belongs to every single American, including every single American in this room, and is the hope and aspiration for many other folks who are not yet citizens," he said. "

http://www.rr-bb.com/archive/index.php/t-112823.html

" He took issue with the Bush attitude that “you’re either with us or against us” and that it is unpatriotic to question our leadership, “but our flag belongs to all Americans” Kerry said. Referring to his military service in Vietnam he said he still knows how to fight for America and will do it to bring leadership that will bring America together again rather than divide us. "

http://www.ilcaonline.org/print.php?sid=281

"The flag belongs to the country, not to the government. And it reminds me that it's not un-American to think that war — except in self-defense — is a failure of moral imagination, political nerve, and diplomacy. Come to think of it, standing up to your government can mean standing up for your country."

http://www.pbs.org/now/commentary/moyers19.html

In a few days the House of Representatives will overwhelmingly approve, for the sixth time, a Constitutional Amendment to allow Congress to make it a crime to deface the American flag.

In three previous votes, the Senate could not muster the two-thirds majority needed to send the bill to the states for ratification. In 2000, the last time the Senate took up the matter, 63 voted for the amendment, four short of a two-thirds majority. Since then Republicans have picked up five Senate seats. That is why USA Today describes the upcoming vote, scheduled sometime after July 4, as a "cliffhanger."

---

The contention that flag worship is blasphemy was a key element before the Supreme Court in 1940. In that case it upheld the right of a Pennsylvania school district to expel two students who refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. The two teenagers were members of the Jehovah's Witness denomination. Their church believed that pledging allegiance to the flag violated the Biblical admonition (Exodus 20) against worshipping or bowing down to any graven image of God. The court decided that the need for national security and national unity allowed Congress to force individuals to violate the Ten Commandments.

In 1943, the Supreme Court reversed its 1940 decision. That reversal probably had less to do with religion than with the Court's realization that, at the height of a war against totalitarian regimes, a central feature of which was a slavish devotion to national symbols, compelling us to worship the flag was inapt. (As a side note, that same year the Flag Code itself was changed. No longer were students required to salute the flag with one arm extended forward. The similarity to the Nazi salute was too embarrassing. From that time onwards, we were told to put our hands over our hearts.)

http://www.alternet.org/story/22268/

Here is another:

Like the Israelites, members of Congress who say we should amend the Constitution to "protect the flag" are confusing a symbol with the thing it represents. And like the sin of the golden calf, which leads Moses to smash the Ten Commandments, their confusion threatens to destroy the law--in this case, the First Amendment.

It has been 10 years since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Gregory Lee Johnson’s conviction for violating a Texas statute against "desecration of a venerated object." Johnson was arrested during the 1984 Republican National Convention in Dallas after he doused an American flag with kerosene and ignited it while his fellow protesters chanted, "America the red, white, and blue, we spit on you."

In 1989, the Supreme Court recognized this odious display for what it plainly was: political speech. "If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment," the Court said, "it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

http://reason.com/sullum/033199.shtml

I guess I'm not alone in my silliness, which is some comfort.

Seemed like somebody started this thread to blast Hillary for daring to have a different opinon than a gink from alternet and the loonies at Reason magazine.

I disagree with her political posturing, but I have no interest in "blasting" her.

If you want to burn it behind closed doors where nobody can see, you can probably get away with it.

Somehow I doubt that's what you mean, though.

Limit other peoples behavior because you dont like it? Whats the reasoning behind that?"because its a symbol" doesnt mean anything. Specifically, if you can, list why you get so emotional when someone excersizes their rights please. After all, it doesnt upset me when you try and limit my rights, only when you legalize the limitation. That means I have to go around trying to convince people that just because people dont like something, that doesnt mean it should be illegal.

"Limit other peoples behavior because you dont like it? "
We do that all the fucking time. There are laws against robbery, murder, etc. It's called civilization.

Jeeze, it's almost as if there is no actual liberal thought in your world.

"After all, it doesnt upset me when you try and limit my rights"
Hahahahaha....

of other peoples property? Are you some kind of freeper troll? Has robbery or murder ever been legal? (setting aside bushworld). Civilization is where people dont get their undies in a bunch over freedom of expression. I'll say it again, I think you need to grow up emotionally.

"other peoples property?"
Who does the flag belong to? It sure as shit belongs to all of us.

And a violent hate crime is no more "expression" than it is "mint-flavored"

'your argument is the weakest link..... goodbye!'

speaking of lame arguments, that must have been about the lamest.

It belongs to whoever bought it. That's capitalism.

whoever bought it. If he chooses to burn it or wipe his ass with it it's his constitutional right to do so. Tell me something, do you also think you own my wifes fetus?

"Tell me something, do you also think you own my wifes fetus?"
Since you seem to want to throw out chippy questions: Are you sure you do, and not the mailman?

The fetus question is meant to parallel it with privacy. You talk about flag burning the same way Republicans talk about abortion. You can't take ownership of something that is not yours.

"You can't take ownership of something that is not yours."
Given that desperate rationale, (and I'm still convulsed with laughter with the idea that someone in a public flag burning protest would claim an expection of privacy), you can't burn the fucking flag since it belongs to all America, not you personally.

It it belonged to you personally, it would be called the Guidod Flag by everybody.

If I go out and buy an American flag I will do whatever I choose with it. It is my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. You do not have ANY rights to my personal flag. The flag is a symbol. The SYMBOL belongs to the American people the FLAG belobngs to me.

then you didn't mneed me to make it.

The flag belongs to all Americans. If you want to burn a guidod flag, I'd help you.

Constitution is silly? If you do then you're in the wrong party. The symbol of the United States flag belongs to the citizenry of the Country. The fabric of the flag that I have belongs to me. Many men and women have died to protect the Constitution that we have, how can you call it silly? Did you learn anything while you were in the military MrBenchly?

to absurdist.

I hope you and your family have a nice Holiday.

Oh thats right, they ceremoniously burn them.

but then that's the beautry of the "progressive purist" position...its relentless honesty </sarcasm>

Its up to you to define why rights should be taken away. Sorry, just because you dont like something isnt good enough.

any more than you have a right to commit a violent hate crime to express your raging contempt for all Americans and all American institutions.

You view it as a hate crime, I imagine you're in the vast minority. I can understand why people dont like flag burning, but thats the same reason why people do it. You've no explanation as to why it should be illegal other than a lame attempt to equate flag burning to robbery and murder. I work in law enforcement pal, you dont know anything about crime.

"I imagine you're in the vast minority."
Imagination is a wonderful thing (snicker)

A hate crime against fabric. What utter bullshit.

Banning flag burnings -- now that would be the real hate crime, against the Constitution and Americans.

Burning an American flag isn't dissent, it's a hate crime against all Americans.

of Speech at the same time! While I'm not going to lose any sleep if someone wants to express themselves by burning the flag, I would never EVER consider doing such a thing myself. I'd leave the country before I ever torched a flag. Personally, I agree with her. It IS a despicable act to burn our symbol. You wanna make a radical statement? Burn GWB in effigy in Times Square, not the flag.

The selective criticism is unreal around here when it comes to this lady. If Kerry or Clark said the same thing she said about the flag, half the forum would be creaming their jeans over it!

In fact, Wes Clark SUPPORTS A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING the burning of the American flag.

And Howard Dean indirectly supported a Constitutional Amendment to prohibit flag burning! Although in 2002 Dean said, "I favor protection of the flag, but I do not favor a constitutional amendment," he supported a VT state legislature decision voicing support for protecting the flag and suggesting Congress pass a constitutional amendment as an option in providing such protection. Specifically, the resolution urged Congress to "take whatever legislative action it deems necessary and appropriate to honor and safeguard the United States Flag."

Further, according to Joe Conason, "Around that time, Dean rather pompously declared that politicians should declare their positions on the flag issue before voters went to the polls in 2002. That requirement didn't apply to Dean himself, as he "coyly" told the Rutland Herald, because he wasn't on the ballot that year."

For that matter John Murtha cosponsored an amendment to the Constitution banning flag burning (with Duke Cunningham, no less). Nary a peep around here about how awful THAT was.

the flag-burning issue has been going on for years. It's only recently that Democrats have spoken up against it.

In fact, NOBODY really speaks in favor of the actual act of flag burning. All opposed to the amendment agree its a dispacable act, but the first Amendment protects it.

This is another bullshit wedge with - at its heart - two sides debating two different issues. Just like abortion, just like the death penalty, just like gay marriage. The heart of the issue is: "How much control do you want the government to have over your personal choices/views/beliefs?"

Seems that the Republicans always fall on the side of "more control" (except when it comes to guns, which actually DO pose a real threat to others). I care when a Democrat loses sight of that - Hillary or anyone else.

chinese per say a treasonouse act? Where do this people get this stuff that find to be worthy of my attentiong when far too many Americans lack proper health care, and far too many Americans lack a viable minimum wage earning etc, etc, etc...

Get a grip and focus on an issue that is trully important to the people of this nation..

That might make all the difference you know...:sarcasm:

Not much left of the merchant marine.

Except that I would add another sentence saying... Any attempts to suppress free speech including a ban on the burning or destroying of the American flag is also a slap in the face to those who gave their lives to protect that free speech.

BTW, as Jon Stewart said, "Where are those $125 million in health benefits you promised us? assholes!"

Just because something is protected under the first amendment does not mean that it is not despicable...

Flag burning is a despicable act and should rightly be condemned!!!

Every racist uttering of the Ku Klux Klan is protected by the first amendment...are we to conclude you believe they are upholders of the rights we hold dear...?

Politicians tend to be gutless on issues such as this one because they are afraid of losing right-wing votes. Even some usually very progressive Democrats have disappointed me on issues of free speech and civil rights. However, groups like the ACLU take these issues to the courts, where they are decided by the Constitution, not right-wing voters. Of course, the right wing wants to pack the Courts with conservative activist judges. That's why it's important to get as many Democrats in office as possible!

in their rather scathing editorial entitled:"Hillary's pathetic ploy".(Sunday,December 12th,2005) They said:"The Democratic Party doesn't need another candidate who lacks the backbone to take a clear,principled stand, and it certainly doesn't need a candidate who doesn't believe in the First Amendment". This is from a newspaper that made O'Really's enemies list! I hope I haven't broken any rules here with not giving a link to this editorial. I am incompetent! :>(

Are you aware of any instance where burning the country's flag has rallied a great number of people to the cause of those who did so?

People are free do any number of damned fool things, but persons who are serious about effecting political change in a desired direction must show some discipline and sense if they wish to achieve success.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

For a second I thought you were going rip me a new one,eh. Again, I agree with your thoughts on the subject. ;>)Peace

The flag is a symbol you should be worried about the constitution for fuck sake!

they would appreciate what it means to many. I personally have no problem with flag burning but I sure sympathize with and understand those who do. I appreciate the image when Clark holds the flag and says it belongs to us too. I think that is more effective than burning it. As Magistrate pointed out, who gains respect and following to their cause by burning it?

Say what you think you have to say to prove you have balls. I have no respect for her. She will never get my vote.

Tweety and all the GOP butt-sniffers are saying nobody will vote for a woman in times of war and terrorism.

What a piece of shit she is...anything to move further to the center/right. I am working non-stop at convincing all my friends and family considering voting for her in '08 NOT to do it (IF she gets the nomination). We don't need a "centrist" (like Bill) or "Republicrat" in office. I would just as soon have a fuckwad Republican ruin it for another 4 years in order to bring on some real change in the political parties and system in general. She is neither liberal nor progressive (support for the war etc..) and is barely a Democrat (in name only, a "DINO"??).

State their beliefs and stand by them. The Right Honorable Samuel A. Alito, Jr. has given some pretty despicable opinions over the years, but I have at least stood my ground.

Hillary seems to just where the fuel leads her. Kind of like a forest fire.

The Right Honorable Samuel A. Alito, Jr
(the A stands for Awesome)

What a stupid, irrelevant waste of time.

Pandering, cynical, patiotism-exploiting, first-amendment-destroying ASSHOLES.