Carper says Iraq not winnable, advocates gradual withdrawal, same as Dean.

Ok, this is all just getting silly.

He criticizes Howard Dean for saying the same thing. He just illustrated my point that they jump all over fellow Democrats without even paying attention.

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051213/NEWS/512130338/-1/NEWS01

The Delaware Democrat spent the week after Thanksgiving with a congressional delegation on a trip to the Middle East and Iraq and returned to a growing political uproar. While President Bush assured reporters "the war is winnable," Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean claimed that the idea the war can be won is "just plain wrong."

"I wish more of my colleagues, and folks like Howard Dean, would try going to Iraq to see the situation there for themselves," Carper told The News Journal.

Carper will take to the Senate floor Wednesday to discuss his observations in more depth. Anyone who has visited Iraq and talked to the people there, he said, "is not going to come back thinking this thing is going to be won militarily. It's not."

Instead, Carper said, he backs a policy of gradual withdrawal of U.S. forces as Iraqis take over military and political operations in their country.

Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., is preparing for his sixth trip to Iraq since 2002. He will observe Thursday's elections.

Dean's remarks sparked sharp rebuttals from Republicans and some Democrats, but Biden -- who once remarked that "Howard Dean does not speak for me" -- shied away from outright criticism. "Howard Dean is doing a good job," Biden said Sunday on ABC's "This Week." "This president went to war with too few resources and he's made too few good decisions since we went in."

WOAI: Is congressman's John Murtha's demand that all US troops be withdrawn from Iraq, is that in the mainstream of democratic party philosophy now?

Dean: Well he actually didn't demand that at all, he didn't even use the word withdrawal and I don't use the word withdrawal either. I think we need a strategic re-deployment over a period of 2 years. What John was basing his discussion on was a report by Lawrence Korb who's actually a defense department official with the Reagan Administration. He has a way of getting out of Iraq which I think makes a lot of sense and I think the Democrats will coalesce around it. Basically he says bring the 80,000 guardsmen home. They don't belong in a conflict like this anyway...

WOAI: He did say re-deploying you're absolutely right about the terminology, but he also did say 6 months, whereas you're saying in a couple of years, Nancy Pelosi's saying 6 months, and some other major democrats are saying a couple of years. If I'm on the fence whether I'm going to be a Democrat or Republican or how I'm going to vote coming up in the next election, I'm not really sure what you guys are saying. Is there a specific time frame that you want to tell us today about when that redeployment should happen?"

http://www.tpmcafe.com/comments/2005/12/8/153437/364/15#15

I edited the subject line to show that he agreed with Dean in two areas, and then criticized him. My point is that they automatically criticize without knowing what he said.

It is a good point, so I edited to add both issues.

This is Carper and Biden taking one foot away from their IWR 'yes' votes, just like Hillary Clinton. Yes, Dean is being used as a foil to say that they're not walking away entirely- yet. The constituents they're talking to probably have zero idea of what actual stances of anyone involved are, most of it is pretty fluffy and fairly inexact statements anyway, it's all about the appearance of navigating the middle between the two sides. Predictably, in two or three three months they'll be calling their IWR votes 'mistakes' as the Iraqi government disintegrates and the Bush people start cutting and running.

Delaware is a historical Border State, that southern stretch outside the Wilmington/Newark area is pretty Red and fairly culturally Southern. Slaveholding country around the time of the Civil War.

I doubt Dean will be saying much about this today or tomorrow- maybe a pro forma chiding that gives them cover, or something. This is a game that isn't as spontaneous or uncoordinated as it appears. If you look at the Democratic Senators (the House folks generally don't matter, really) stepping back or walking away from their IWR 'yes' votes, there's very clear pattern according to how Blue their state is and how they're doing it- the redder the state, the later and the more increments to what they're doing. Excepting those representing the New York City metro area, that is.

Nothing I say will change anything. Taking a stand and speaking out is not going to happen with many of our Democrats.

I made my point, and if they are happy with what they are doing...fine with me. People are not stupid. They do notice.