Would some "christian" tell me how large the Iraq Vet Memorial has to be

before you all are satisfied. 10,000 dead Americans, 20,000? Give me a number. Obviously high body counts are like sex to "christians." Please, take exception to my post. This veteran would love for you to rant and put me in my place.

Really, what'd I miss?

the reason behind this war. This war is Christianity vs. Islam. The Prophet Muhammad vs. The Prophet Jesus. More people have died "In The Name of God" than for any other reason. When you get that figured out go listen to the song "The Universal Soldier" by Donivan. After you do all of that you'll understand why t his world is so FUCKED UP.

I never would have understood the world if not for the enchanting hippie-folk of Donivan (sic). Thanks, brother. Lemme guess - you must be a Pisces? :eyes:

So all those protests where people are chanting "No Blood For Oil" -- should we be changing it to "No Blood of the Lamb?" I think that'd be funny.

I think I'd rather be a hippie. Do you know the words to "The Universal Soldier? Astrology? If you have to know, Capricorn....the same as the prophet Jesus. Astrology?

were gonna start a modern crusade against Islam, I hardly think they'd start with a nation that had more 'other' religions than most in the mid-east. Just a hunch I've got.

it's also very anti-Semitic. It's not only a war for oil but it is also a war to push the Judaeo-Christian message throughout the world. As most wars are, it is a religious cleansing.

:yourock:

the "it's worth it" crowd drives me bonkers. Democracy would have happened in Iraq in 10 years or 50 years, but eventually, inevitably.

We had no business invading a sovereign nation for the reasons we did. We have killed more civilians so far than Saddam killed over his entire ascendency.

If you had told soldiers that are now dead that they would have to sacrifice over 2000 of their lives to depose one man, they would have said two things:

1. bad strategy.
2. not worth it.

Not all "Christians" are supporting this war. I would say the majority are not, given the fact that most people in the country disapprove of how it is going and a good deal of them are christians.

This is like saying "all the Jews are pro-Israel and hate the Palestinians".

Please differentiate between the fundie, rightwing hypocrites and other christians.

It's like when people say "Texan" when describing George. :thumbsup:

But, to me, that isn't enough. I wouldn't put "Jews" or "Muslims" in quotes and then go on to insult them as a group without any further qualifiers. It could also be a reference simply to their hypocrisy, without making any difference who they are. Like all christians are hypocrites.

then say it or can it. Jeezus Christ people, aren't one of the "rules" recommendations to have a thick skin?

You are not being persecuted.

But the phrasing of the rhetorical question just encourages the kind of "Christians agin the libruls" kind of thinking that is dividing this country in a lot of ways. Yes, I understand what he/she/it was trying to say. And being an atheist, I don't really have a dog in this fight. BUT...I do see a kind of danger in promoting that kind of thinking (even as a tool for making a point) that COULD impact me.

who is letting it?

We're on DU. We are not a microcosm of the united states here. We are a microcosm of the democratic and progressive part of the U.S.

I don't have a dog in the fight either, but when we make more of something than it deserves we create the situation we feared to begin with.

getting play, then YEAH, it has the potential to alienate Christians here.

It does not bother you. Good for you. Way to be secure. But to say it shouldn't bother anybody is a little arrogant. The post was written in an intentionally inflammatory manner and asks an unanswerable question. Why are you in any way startled that it has hit a nerve?

and I am lying through my buttcrack.

It's the first thing that insecure people say as if it would be an insult.

Sticking to your guns does not make you arrogant. Take a chill pill, it's okay, we really are all friends. This is a silly made up fight.

If so, read what you just wrote from my perspective.

what you're getting at but that's okay.

I was just trying to be funny and my usual colorful self - sorry if it offended.

Ironically, (I do know know what it means young'un), the same people who accuse me of arrogance always ask me if I understand irony. Is there a script they give ya'll when you decide to circle on Sui?

silliness, peace sister - :hi:

or threatened by that statement. It's silly on DU to be insecure about one's goodness.

(my subject wasn't intended to zing anyone)

:hi:

I'm not oversensitive, I'm not a practicing anything, but a little respect isn't too much to ask when referring to a large group of people, is it?

This wasn't exactly an invitation to a discussion, he was daring people to argue with him. So I took it in the least positive light, so to speak.

:shrug:

I'm (edited to add NOT!!!) :rofl:

trying to be an ass and I understand a teeeeeeny little bit of where you might be coming from, but are you that insecure? I doubt it. I think sometimes people just go on persecution autopilot and waste so many heartbeats.

It's silly - I've made my point. Come on guys, this is a silly reason to hijack Bosshog's thread if we're all comfortable with ourselves.

the responses being given. It was a rhetorical, unanswerable question. The issue in this thread IS the blanket use of the word Christian, quotes or no quotes.

It would already have been shoved to the bottom of the page without that wholesale Christian reference, which is why I imagine it was employed.

please take your pitchforks and torches elsewhere.

:evilgrin:

naturally everyone should just ignore it.


...again, I say "huh?"

Who are you again?

If you're sitting around with a bunch of pals and somebody says something you find mildly objectionable do you throw down your beer and start carrying on about being ersecuted? You would have MUCH wider parameters and probably be considerably more generous and less prickly.

So why do it here? I am here with the understanding that most of the people here are decent and good and not bigots. If I go apeshit and start pretending I'm under assault by my friends, I'd be, well, apeshit.

Who am I? A decent guy. And so is Bosshog. And so are you. This is silliness.

I am sitting at my computer talking to total strangers whose tone I can neither hear and whom I have never met. And am highly unlikely to meet.


And I am not a guy. And I don't hang out in bars drinking beer and making accusations against whole segments of society. Whole segments of society some members of which have a lot invested in making up things like 'The War On Christmas'.

Even decent, good people can make mistakes when they are trying to make a point. That doesn't make them less decent or good. And pointing out that they may have offended a large group of people does not mean that I or anybody else here has a persecution complex.

in a good way - just an observation for me to take back that you can't accuse people with persecution complexes of having persecution complexes because they'll think you're persecuting them. That was not a pointed comment; just struck me as funny in general terms.


And I'm not a firebreathing beer swilling ape Renie - but I did just have a belly laugh, thanks! And at work!

Have a great weekend

- Sui

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

And end up offending several different groups in the process. I started to write more than one, but I couldn't do it. But would you suggest they also have a persecution complex? I'll use my own different group.

Fat people who aren't lazy slobs shouldn't be offended if I call fat people lazy slobs. Insert other groups and their stereotypes at will.

Kind of a dumb statement, wouldn't you say. In a similar way, Christians who aren't hypocrites, which would be pretty much any Christian on a Left leaning board, shouldn't be offended by the statememt.

So if we're not the hypocrites, but the Right is, then why the hell is the OP yelling for one of US to come and explain things. Fucked if we know. Go ask over at the Free Republic.

Bigotry is bigotry.

But then decided that I didn't want to go there.

The 'fat lazy slobs' thing works, though.

I erased it. Then tried a different group, and erased that. Couldn't go there either.

Went with fat people because I'm fat. Figured I could get away with it.

Why is this an accepted bigotry?

See how irritating a rhetorical device can be?

Anyway, are there "good bigots" and "bad bigots"? If I were a bigot and acknowledged it do you think as a bigoted type of person I would feel persecuted?

I'm afraid to use a smilie now that Renie fucked it up for everyone, but I am grinning, not scowling.

sheesh. the drama.

And of course, the bigot always manages to assert that PC is oppressing HIM, the real victim.

Well, good to know what the REAL subject of the thread was.

I guess the quotes didn't work. Our kids are dying. An incredibly significant segment of the christian population believes bush's lies that he is "born again." Our kids are being slaughtered in the desert of iraq because our "christian" president supported by "christians" is a liar. What do "christians" do? Vote for him on election day in large numbers. What else do they do? Hate homosexuals. Death and hate - "Christian Values." I was born and raised a Catholic but today's "christians" are a pitiful example of what I was taught 40 years ago. And as a veteran I get really pissed that my fellow teammates have to die because a president chooses to invoke the name of Jesus Christ to justify his war mongering to "christians." Bitch at me if you want, but wouldn't you be so much more effective by turning your wrath on those who have kidnapped your faith?

I was also raised Catholic. I don't pratice anymore. But I would never allow the worst of any group I belong to define me or my faith.

I understand your rage and I agree with you but it could have been better stated, is all.

Peace.

Just saying. Everyone can direct their fire. And I say that with BOSSHOG being one of my favorite DU posters.

When you consider the number of Americans that consider themselves Christians and the number of Americans who now think we should get out of Iraq, it stands to reason that maybe not such a huge number of Christians are swallowing Bush's BS.

And I am also not so sure that they have kidnapped the faith, just the bullhorn.

And while I get where you are going with this, the wholesale attack on Christians is probably not the best way to travel.

I think that you might be better off exchanging "Christians" with "Fundamentalist Conservatives". They are not the same thing. It's like one of those SAT questions. "While all Fundamentalist Conservatives might be Christians, not all Christians are Fundamentalist Conservatives."

oy.

Here's one: can neither bad NOR good christians respond to the subject instead of the perceived offense?

Why not?

Because the original question is a rhetorical one and I think the phrasing might be more signficant and relevent to some of the problems this country is facing than the original intent of the post.

So, I disagree. Ignoring the 'perceived offense' is not productive. The phrasing of the OP just falls right into the 'Christians against the rest of you liberal sinners' trap that both this administration and the right wing fundies behind it have been laying for the last decade. I don't think anybody can stress too much that not ALL Christians support this administration or this war.

therefore the "perceived" offense.

funny thing about that, dropping the responsibilty for senseless deaths on a large group of people, MOST of whom oppose the war, can make things dicey fairly quickly. go figure.

RW christians do not represent all christians, they certainly don't represent me, but I know some and I don't think any that I know WANT senseless death. I think they are greivously mislead by their leaders into drinking the koolaid and so bumfuzzled by the constant Fox news distractions and the living in denial coporate media actively ignoring the butcher's bill on this war into thinking its a "noble cause".
their sin is not investigating or challenging what they are told, NOT wishing the death of untold thousands, especially not of our own servicemen.

fundies are gullible, but I don't think the rank and file are culpable in the decision to invade Iraq. That was solely on the shoulders of the neocons, WHO THEN MISLED the fundies and a large part of the rest of the country as to the real reasons for preemptive invasion.

why are DU christians taking offense at a statement that you already understand?

that's all. Sometimes I think we practice killing each other here because it's too much trouble to fight real people in the real world.

Anyway, cool thing that it does seem to be constructive BTW :hi:

take offense. I was explaining the the wording of the OP was unnecessarily incendiary.
then I went on to make other points tangentially related. Then I posted the message. then I got up and went to the bathroom.

christians, implying something about christians.

I'm really not sure what else anyone could be expected to say to it. "Six", perhaps? The question isn't meant to be answered with a number.

But I guess your wish is that an offense be given but the protestations wait until you are ready to hear about them in your priorities, sometime about half past hell freezing over.

Religious Right. Like we're warmongers by association, just drooling for the blood of Iraqis. Hence, the OP asks for flames. "Please, take offense. I want you to."

O-B-K-B.

I'm obviously totally wrong. There is not one christian or christian preacher or christian church in this country that supports the killings of iraqis and the corresponding deaths of my fellow servicemembers based on george bush's lies. Therefore all christians can look each other in the eye, pat each other on the back and go about the business of christianity. I don't know who in the fuck is enabling bush to do what he does; must be the Seals, but that War Memorial is getting bigger every day. Its just so great to know that christians can wash their hands of its size.

HELLO!?

You come HERE and yell at US and we're on your DAMN SIDE.

WE do not represent ALL Christians. GO TO FREE REPUBLIC AND YELL AT THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

That's like asking a Muslim DUer to explain why 9/11 happened, and if they don't saying they must all have supported the attack then.

It's fucking stupid, and offensive, and YOU CAN KISS MY SHINY METAL ASS IF YOU THINK I SUPPORT THIS WAR MERELY BECAUSE I'M A CHRISTIAN.

Not to any degree of sophisticaion. Here you are, military, southerner, and American, and you can't tell the players and don't think it worth the time to make distinctions.

Go get a scorecard, will you?

Instead of the Christian Left.

and I'd suggest that if you want to take offense you go to free republic where people aren't on your side.

Instant Persecuted Christian. Just add water. We should sell it.

Stop - you are among friends! this is crazy.

But this guy is yelling at folks who are on his own damn side. Perhaps he'd like to yell at folks who AREN'T on his side and stop lumping people together based on religious affiliation.

And perhaps as well, not ask for flames "Please, take offense. I want you to"

So, when people do, someone is on the sideline going "tsk, tsk".

I'd LIKE to think I'm among friends. But generally I'm not being yelled at by friends unless I deserve it.

you just took offense on behalf of all "good" christians. I don't get it.

You chose to be offended. You're working way too hard at it anyway. This is all silly.

YOU ARE NOT BEING PERSECUTED. (sorry that wasn't a lame attempt at telepathy :hi:)

lighten up guys.

this thread is hysterical. anybody who is familiar with BOSSHOG's posts and his thoughts on things knows what he means. If i am not mistaken he is a christian himself.

Just a few weeks ago, a good friend of mine said, "You know, people who don't have religion, don't have morals." She said this. Sitting in my home. Over brownies cooked by my own godless hands. Drinking MY Starbuck's Verona fresh ground coffee.

I gently reminded her that I was an atheist. I also pointed out that maybe she shouldn't make blanket statements without thinking. Is she my friend? Of course. Did she offend me? Yeah, a little bit. Was it a big deal? I don't think so. But I think I was right to point out that her comment was thoughtless.

I've been here long enough to know a hijacking when I see one.

Yes, and he used poor grammar and punctuation and spelled a word wrong but we didn't just have four hundred posts about that either.

Christianity persecution is a weird and special kind of persecution, especially since if Bosshog had wanted to offend you he WOULD HAVE REALLY FUCKING OFFENDED YOU AND THERE WOULD BE NO DOUBT THAT HE INTENDED TO.

That means that CHOOSING TO BE offended here is hard work and kind of contrived by people who just love to go on autopilot about being offended. If somebody says "gays do this or that" I wouldn't go into persecution mode. I'd address the sentiment first in context, then the stereotype. Maybe that's arrogant (or strength, as I see it), but that's why I can't borrow or lend persecution here in this context.

You have to take things in context. Without context life is an ugly evil place, but if we run around ignoring context of our friends we ourselves make life an ugly evil place.

obnoxious comment about atheists. I do not believe in a sentient divine being in any way, shape or form.

I didn't feel persecuted until you decided to shove your sensibilities onto every other person on this board. Look, I am usually rolling my eyes right along with you. But that is a pretty inflammatory post and it doesn't seem unusually sensitive TO ME for Christians who are passionately against the war to be offended by it. But that is just me. You have a right to your opinion. Even though you think the rest of us should abide by it.

just pm'd you

"The moral degeneration this country is currently undergoing? These "gay people" don't have any morals or ethics. I dare you to take offense. This straight upstanding citizen would love to debate you."

Still don't see it or are you being deliberately dense?

Why are you attacking me personally?

To make a point? Er?

Well first of all I don't take offense. I am probably more highly evolved. :hide: that was a joke.

If you want an essay answer to your question, by the way, I have one. There is a perception that we don't have morals or ethics because (insert forty paragraphs here), and in some cases that perception is valid for these reasons: (insert a coupla short paragraphs here) but all in all that statement is wrong, in my opinion.

I take it back. I really am more highly evolved. come on guys! what is this crazy ass crap we're fighting about?

A serious OP, not a joke. I doubt very much you would find it funny is my point.

I'm not offended by this OP because I'm not a christian. But I think it's wording is very unfortunate at best or deliberately provacative at worst.

We can do better than this, especially in how we talk to each other on DU. This isn't the FundamentalistUnderground, so why is he asking DU Christains to defend them?

I think after two days away from this that the very first problem is the willingness of people here to make these false assumptions:

1. Bosshog has an ulterior motive
2. Bosshog is NOT a devout and faithful christian himself
3. This is an attack on Christianity.

I am disappointed how childish (and I mean that literally) the people defending "christianity under assault" are here.

I will accuse here: you had a choice to give the benefit of the doubt or not. You did not hesitate to judge for the worst. What other positive "christian" or "secular" values could you have used to give the benefit of the doubt and replace 1 through 3 with.

I certainly had no problem doing it, and I will be positive in my expectations again, whether anyone likes or it or not. Unless somebody REALLY attacks you, and repeatedly, and clarifies that they are attacking, YOU HAVE TO HEAR THEM when they say they are not.

Yes I'm disappointed -- I like to delude myself that we are more mature and less insecure in ourselves than this whole exchange has illuminated (all of us here).

Here's a question: if you thought he was attacking christianity, why didn't anyone ask directly? Why didn't anyone try to learn more about where he was coming from FIRST before going into judgemental (or persecuted, in some cases) mode?

That's where I'm coming from. Finally, I try to clarify when someone is really doing ad hominem or is really attacking. If one is going to be so grand and full of oneself as to throw about instant judgements based on a couple of sentences, then be at least careful enough to judge performances, and not performers.

And you aren't arrogant or rude. Or remotely wrong, no matter how many people disagree with you.

Interesting.

no toots, you're in the minority. You have clarified for me repeatedly now that you would rather swing in and go on the attack than add anything constructive. It is clear that you ARE expressing antipathy.

Are you on drugs? Do you just hang around and comment on posts or do you have anything to add? I made some points but you just went all ad hominem again - it appears to be the only thing you can do, and I am quite frankly fed up with it. If you want ad hominem I'll be happy to stoop to your level since there seems to be plenty of pathology to go after here, and this time I am referring to YOU.

Say what you mean. Passive aggressive personality disorder isn't as devastating to everyone else as you might think - it's just annoying. Like a biting fly.

I'm being yelled at by a DUer. He's yelling at DUers, much as he's trying to make it about all Christians. That's not how the OP sounds.

My grandmother, bigoted soul that she was, used to explain there were good black people and then there were ******. So why would a good black person be offended by the ****** word, hmm?

Do you get it now?

What I think is weird is that anybody would think the OP, as written, WOULDN'T found offensive or that anybody would be wrong to be offended by it.

Just like all Jews love money and all Black people love watermelon.

Sure, makes perfect sense.

I understand.

discuss.

I think ethics matter more.

At least according to the American Heritage Dictionary.

this place is ENTIRELY TOO SERIOUS for a Friday afternoon.

;)

grow up people.

do you get it now? The only person 'yelling' as you put it, are you and that other woman who is defending everyone everywhere and making great friends doing it.

All the angst and bad blood on this thread is being caused by people overreacting.

That's what REALLY pisses him off.

since you don't believe me. I won't even ask you to give me an example of being rude or ignorant, since you haven't volunteered, you're just name calling like a two year old.

That's okay. We all have our days. And I'm going to use a smilie without your damn permission lady.

:P

Besides, I don't know any two year olds who can properly spell 'ignorant'. If I am name calling, it is AT LEAST like a seven year old.

since you don't believe me. I won't even ask you to give me an example of being rude or ignorant, since you haven't volunteered, you're just name calling like a two year old.

That's okay. We all have our days. And I'm going to use a smilie without your damn permission lady.

:P

These "christians" won't be happy until 58K are dead like Vietnam

(Please note that when I say "christian" I'm talking about RW Fundies. I'm a Christian myself so I know better than to insult an entire faith).

(a) look at my number of posts, and indeed some of my posts for content, and

(b) consider yourself bitch-slapped by me.

Thank you.

OK, I literally laughed out loud at that one!

Thanks for making my day. :rofl:

as long as more "heathens" are killed.

And as long as it's some-one else being sacrified.

(I'm referring to neo-Christians* here).

*Just as neo-conservatives aren't really conservative so neo-christians don't have any christian values either.

has always been against the Iraqi war as have many other "christians", please don't smear all Christians because of the actions of some.

You might gain a better understanding of Christians if you had a civilized discussion with a Christian now and then.

I'm a Christian and I know many, many other Christians, and I have never heard anyone express anything remotely like what you said in your post.

Have a nice day anyway, and thank you for your service to our country.

why did you think bosshog isn't a christian?

all these assumptions people make when all you have to do is ask.

this is just like other religious arguments in the past I have witnessed on here. A DUer who is no longer with us was often accused of being an atheist because she got sick of some DU christians whining about being persecuted and would call them on this and when she told them she was a catholic they TOLD her she WAS NOT or they doubted it.

and actually there are several people who have left DU over exactly this craziness. I just can't believe how easily people go ballistic over this, especially when you suggest it's not worth going ballistic over.

are all for bush and whatever the fuck he does..so someone would have to ask them .."how large the Iraqi War Vet Memorial has to be before you are satisfied?".

I have some right here at work who scribble on political strips that were meant for me(that question the quagmire}..scribbling something about "it takes a grownup to lead the way"..I wanted to write back.."Yes, it does take a grownup.. Impeach bush!"

They're deluded little bushbots who cover their ears to the truth and would repeat the bush lies to their dying breath.

After all there about 27 or so jews in his administration.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/bushjews.html
(edited to add above link)
There are some whom feel "Jews and Freemasons controlled war on Iraq, says No 10 adviser"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/12/nthom12.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/09/12/ixportal.html

Then there is this D:
Moran's Moronic Comments

A U.S. lawmaker told his constituents that the Jewish community is behind the Bush administration’s push for war against Iraq.

On March 3, 2003 Rep. James Moran (D-Va.) said, “If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this,” according to the Virginia-area Connection newspaper.

Moran, whose daughter is converting to Judaism before an August wedding, has a history of comments and actions against Israel and the Jewish community.

---------------------
I guess though such a thread would probably get pulled real quick when picking on another religion (or subset of members thereof). In fact, this comment will probably be pulled (and would be my first ever I believe)

is to try to convince them they're not being persecuted.

However, I must sin here.

Your argument is a valid one, but it has nothing to do with Bosshog's post. Read what he said. Ask why he said it. Find an honest answer. If you start with at least this assumption: bosshog IS a christian himself, how does that color your response?

Everyone is working SO hard at this (yawn). Is it worth it?