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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 08:23 PM
Original message
It does not matter if rules of evidence...
....are tainted by extra-legal Bush spying.He has no intention on earth of bringing ANYONE to an American court, where at the end of the day a "not guilty" verdict is possible. Anyone suspected and spied on will be "disappeared" and be "handled" long before anyone knows their names or the facts of the case....At some far distant date their "confession" will be made public,though you will never see them publically confirm it...It's a BRAVE NEW WORLD and thinking otherwise is double plus ungood....
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. You're absolutely correct
In order for someone to file suit about this spying, they have to be able to prove that they've been spied on and that they've been damaged. The government would never allow such information to be made public.

I mean, really, I'm still fighting with the FBI over FOIA requests made in the late 1970s. Yes, I'm serious.

This is the Executive Privilege case of Richard ("Dick Nixon Before He Dicks Us") Nixon all over again. These ratbastards will claim "national security" would preclude the release of the name of anyone upon whom they snooped.

Catch-22. Nice, eh?

Snooping? What snooping.
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thefool_wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Suit may not be necessary
A couple of things apply here that may make filing suit un-necessary.

The president unashamedly, before the entire world, admitted to breaking one of the most vital laws of our society, sacrificing HIS OWN 5th amendment right in doing so. The investigations this will spawn (and I HAVE to believe they will happen) should produce all of the documents necessary to give anyone who was wronged by the presidents criminal actions all the evidence they need for recourse.

Additionally, any crimes short of terrorist action (and even some of those) that were charged or prosecuted as a result of information gleaned through these illegal activities will HAVE to be dropped as all the evidence necessary should be public record by that time. I'm no lawyer, but I think the only way you could end up REALLY screwed by this is if you plead guilty to a crime they caught you doing as a result of the information.

I am being SUPREMELY optimistic here. While the OP's point that people will be vanished before they have a chance to complain is valid, I NEED to think as optimistically as possible about this. I am an author who is in the process of writing two books set during present time and future American revolutions and it scares me to think that just the exercising of my 1st Amendment right to write about whatever the hell I want to could put me in danger of becoming one of those disappeared individuals.

This is a fear I should not have, and it grows stronger every day.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Not exactly
Those "documents" will never be surrendered, and, in fact, probably no longer exist in any place where they can easily be retrieved.

Right there, it stops.

That's how it works.

Go read about how Nixon fought turning over the tapes during the Watergate investigation. That was one hell of an Executive Privilege case. This is far more complicated than that.

Whatever your fears are, they're healthy, and you should have them. They'll keep you vigilant, which, sadly, is a posture you'll need to maintain during times like this.

As for whatever executive wrath you think your books might incur, your publisher will cover you, so don't worry. You know that. Read your contract, or else ask your agent. There should be an indemnification clause there, fiction or non-fiction.

My agent won't write a contract without it, and I, for one, just feel better every time I see that in my contracts.

But, we should all remain vigilant without letting it get in the way of our normal lives.

You shouldn't worry about any "documents" being produced to any committee - you should, though, refresh your recollection (if you're old enough) of the Watergate fight.
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thefool_wa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Contracts are great,
but at this point I am unsigned with a little more than 200 pages written and currently shopping for an agent/publisher. It puts me in a little more exposed position, especially since finding someone to publish means distribution of my work electronically from time to time. I can only hope that I can protect myself until someone signs me on, but I honestly am not sure how to do that.

While you are probably right about those documents being gone, there is an element of pride and defiance in GW over this that makes me think he will try to one-up Tricky Dick and turn them over in the hopes of indemnification before the law (which will not happen). I may be grasping at the last straws of hope here, but again I think maybe that is all I have left.

As to watergate, it happened the year I was born and all I have is what we got in High School government class. I will need to do some reading.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-22-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I suspect you're all right
Don't worry about anything like transmitting electronically. Honestly, this so-called administration isn't coming for you. You're safe.

No one is going to allow GWB to turn anything over. Don't forget - he's Cheney's tool. That will never happen - it can't. The precedent of executive privilege is significant, but, more important than precedent, it plays right into Cheney's view of hugely expanded executive power.

Oh, you're a youngster. Yes, do read up on it - it will make what I've written here for you much easier to understand. Frame of reference, and all that.

Good luck with the agent business. It's harder, I think, than getting your work sold, but it can be done. Hang in there.
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