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Is there anyway to override a Presidential Pardon?

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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:15 AM
Original message
Is there anyway to override a Presidential Pardon?
What if a President knew he were about to be Impeached and Pardoned everyone that could provide testimony against him. Now knowing they can't be sent to prison there would be no incentive for them to testify. Are there limits to that Constitutional Right of the President or in this case pResident?
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good question.
Anyone know the answer?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yeah.
No.
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Damn!
That's quite a loophole in our system of checks and balances.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. The Founding Fathers
knew what they were doing. Read the Constitution, and see how brilliantly they designed the Presidential pardon process.

That's not a loophole. Not by a long shot.
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I will read it.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. you impeach him before that happens
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. LOL !! You have a problem of timing regarding your idea.
The impeachment process takes months. A pardon takes only a few minutes. Any POTUS can beat you to the draw on that.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. don't have much alternative
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
2. That won't work
The Presidential Pardon is absolute. However, its use to escape law breaking of the Presidency itself is clearly an impeachable abuse of power.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. No...
...this was discussed ad nasueam during Clinton's pardons...no way to geta round this one.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. No, there aren't any limits I am aware of (edit: IANAL)
Edited on Sat Dec-24-05 11:20 AM by kgfnally
This is why we need a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting the sitting President from pardoning persons who were themselves members of his own administration at the time the crime for which they are being pardoned was committed.

The Presidential pardon is simply too easily abused and needs a strict Constitutional limit. The lack of such a limiting mechanism is one of the reasons we're in the mess we are today- if the S&L/BCCI crowd had not been pardoned (well, some of them), we may well have seen them into the slammer and not a new administration later on down the line.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. I disagree, this is the first step down a dangerous path
The presidential pardon was created for a reason. One minute it's administration officials the next minute the pardon doesn't exist anymore. I think that your intentions are good, but I think that it is simply too dangerous.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. No, pardons are pardons, and that is that
The only way to prevent pardons is for the President's legal team to go public and tell the world what he is planning to do. But he can still issue them. Only the force of public opinion might stay his hand. Of course, that assumes that the idiot in charge gives a shit about public opinion. This bozo not only does not care what the people think, he does not give a shit about history, either. He makes Caligula look like a goddamn statesman.

Ask Cap Weinberger about pardons--he threatened to sing like a bright yellow canary if he didn't get his. He said (nay, SNARLED) words to the effect that he wasn't taking the damn fall for ANYONE.

He got his pardon!
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
9. The right answer is:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

So if the case involves impeachment in any way, the President has no right to pardon AND never a right to pardon himself or herself.

So there are TWO exceptions...

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. hey, that is a scrap of paper. Don't refer to it - it is a quaint,
historical document that no longer exists in our new and improved Amerika.

They have declared war on america with their arrogant, power-hungry ways. it is time that we stood up and stopped them.
Now, or never.
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ISUGRADIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I think you misread this clause
Edited on Sat Dec-24-05 12:03 PM by ISUGRADIA
it's been interpreted to mean a president cannot pardon someone who is being impeached or convicted in an impeachment, not crimes an impeachment is being based upon themselves. So the Senate impeaches Cheney for example. Bush cannot pardon Cheney

A president can pardon himself for crimes but could not escape impeachment as a result of that pardon.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa022501a.htm
"only one limitation -- no pardons for the impeached."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/news/aa041200b.htm
"n other words, under this Article, a sitting president can grant him or herself a pardon. The Founding Fathers intended this in order to prevent the Executive Branch (the president) from coming under the direct control and influence of the Judiciary Branch (the courts)."
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
11. Iran-Contra
been done
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. Can't they still be brought in as a material witness?
If they refuse to testify, a judge can still jail them for contempt of court. Also, if they have a pardon, does that mean that they no longer can invoke the 5th amendment, since they would no longer be at risk for self incrimination?
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. They can say, "I don't remember." It has been used very successfully. NT
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. It's been said on here by knowledgeable posters that
Edited on Sun Dec-25-05 02:18 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
that excuse wouldn't wash this time. You just can't have these kinds of high crimes and misdemeanours repeatedly at the highest levels of government repeatedly pardoned and a regular recrudescence of it; i.e. just recycling it. The military-industrial complex riding roughshod over the electoral process and continuing to make a mockery of American democracy and the very legal system, itself.
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KBlagburn Donating Member (409 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-24-05 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
20. This premise has no basis
If they have done no wrong, they cannot be pardoned simply to keep them from testifying. A pardon is issued for a specific crime. If those testifying have committed no crime themselves then the issue of a pardon is mute.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-26-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. And what crime was Nixon Pardoned for?
I think you need to do more research...
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
21. Vigilantism.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-25-05 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. No (nt).
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