I'm a gun owner who supports the death penalty..... and I'm a liberal

Some rethug freak today told me it wasn't possible..... yet here I sit!
He assured me that I should be voting republican.... based on those two things alone. He even gave me a list....

Yea, I own my daddy's service 45 and a lady mossberg.....

I think if a machine (i learned in elementary school the human body is a machine) is dangerous to others.... it should be turned off.

Below is the list I wrote to him:

BUT.....
I think that this nation (as great as it is) has given minorities, immigrants and women the shitty end of the stick.
I don't believe in limiting immigration (as all 4 of my grandparents were illegal)
I believe this is a judeo-christianmuslimbuddhistwiccanhinduatheist nation
I believe in a woman's right to choose
I believe that food, shelter, education and health care are RIGHTS not things we get if we're real good
I believe in the nationalization of the energy and healthcare industries
I believe that our rights to privacy, assembly, free press and speech are sacred
I believe that the laws apply to everyone
I believe that the environment is a precious resource that ought to be protected
.... the only resource that we have that is more valuable is our people (citizen and not).... which deserves REAL protection, not the kind offered by the patriot act.
I still believe in juries and voting (if you are a felon who has served your time.... please write your governor and have your rights restored... we need you)

I'm sure there's more.....

...be voting Republican. They are a minority of Democrats who are all for inclusiveness as long as the inclusiveness includes people who are exactly like them.

They don't get that rainbow thing, which is unfortunate.

PB

I spite of all of my other "commie-pinko" ideas?

FAR, FAR MORE IMPORTANT

than the issues you disagree with the platform on.

They affect more lives more directly. You have your priorities in place in making your voting decisions. One or two issues do not a voting decision make. You know how to look at the bigger picture -- and if other Republicans would do so they would realize they aren't voting in their best interest.

Did he say he was a Republican? I thought he said he was a liberal?

I own guns and support the death penalty also. My personal opinion: Bring back public execution! Cold blooded killers have no place in our society. How much did we spend housing and feeding Jeffrey Dahmer before another convict took care of him?? People convicted of murder should be walked out to the courthouse steps and have a bullet put in their head on live TV, then the executioner looks in the camera and says "This IS what will happen to you if you murder someone".

All in all, I have to say that I agree with your beliefs.

he'd kill white people all day long.
I asked if I could give him a list.... if the death penalty is repealed

justification and reinforcement for hating. That is hardly a democratic principle for a civilized culture.

NoFederales

... other than the list thing.... which WE both knoew was a joke.... and he's only 14.
Go figure.

this isn't the F***ING 12TH CENTURY. A sane and just society would never do such a thing, and your aims stand in direct contrast to those virtues. Let me reiterate: what you encourage is INSANE and UNJUST.

NO LIVING THING SHOULD BE TREATED SO WRONGLY. A society must be reasonable with punishments. I don't care how much it costs to keep someone alive while away from society, because that is the responsibility of the government. Furthermore, it is only right that one receives decent treatment, regardless of past actions. If you disagree with that, then your views are sadistic and disgusting. Killing someone for killing is the epitome of cruelty and hypocrisy.

You need to THINK a little bit. You also need to FEEL a little bit.

If you do not want to do either, you should run along and have a bonfire with like-minded people (and don't forget to bring some books).

disagree with you about the DEATH PENALTY. The death penalty is a useless tactic.

NoFederales

Here's a list of names you might want to consider the next time you take the position that, "People convicted of murder should be walked out to the courthouse steps and have a bullet put in their head on live TV..."
Arvin McGee On Death Row 14 Years -- Exonerated
Kenneth Adams Murder, Rape. Although sentenced to 75 Years under your punishment system he would have been murdered -- 18 Years in Prison -- Exonerated.
Rolando Cruz -- Murder 11 Years -- exonerated.
Kirk Bloodsworth -- Death row 9 Years -- DNA Exonerated Him
Alejandro Hernandez - Murder on Death Row 10 Years - DNA Exonerated Him
Robert Lee Miller, Jr. - Murder Death Row 10 Years - DNA Exonerated
James Bo Cochran - Death Row 21 Years - Exonerated

Some time maybe you should ask these people face-to-face what they think of your plan.
Because under your plan, these men and many others would have been dead right after their convictions.
You should rework your executionaer statement to be, "This is what happens to you if you're convicted of murder. Whether you're really guilty or not."

How can you call yourself liberal by thinking public executions are ok? I certainly don't think we should all walk in lock step, but to me, relishing the public execution of someone seems a bit fucking inconsistent.

I'm a liberal!
I'm a liberal!
I'm a liberal!
So there....

In most cases (Osama, Hitler, similar notwithstanding), I think that it's more torturous for someone to be stuck in a hole for the rest of their life than to be executed. I almost included Tim McVeigh in that paranthetical list, but then remembered that I wanted him to be stuck in a deep hole with no light and minimal food for his crime. He would be haunted by the ghosts of all those he killed.

Look, we just "celebrated" the 1000th person executed in this country since the Death Penalty had been re-instated in the 70s. Are murders down? Not if you listen to the righties . . .

I hope that I never have to have the decision to make (one co-worker was murdered) as to whether or not to have someone put to death. If I do, I hope that I have the courage and intestinal fortitude to ask for life with no chance ever for parole.

our tax dollars are paying to house and feed this piece of trash. Rid society of scum like this! They don't deserve to live. How many millions of dollars are spent yearly on these people?? They now have a steady home, 3 meals a day and free medical, which is a lot better than some of them had before they went to prison.

Have you not ever seen the figures that show it costs more to put someone to death than to keep them in prison for life? The legal costs of appeals far out weighs the cost of life in prison. Check into the research...

Why don't you go commit a life sentence crime, if the life in prison is so cushy? Why is Rush so adamant about declaring his innocence, if life behind bars is so wonderful?

I was listening on Saturday afternoon, unknowingly to a RW station, where the host was pontificating about a woman who was on "lifesaving" medication, which cost her $1400 a day. Started in 1991. RW host was going on and on about how the drug companies let her go on the medication because "the government was picking up the tab". This person was kept alive to the current tune of nearly 8 MILLION dollars. Well, you would have to take this with a grain of salt, considering that it was a RIGHT-WING talk show host . . .

He was asking "Is your life worth it?" Yet, there's a law in Texas (signed by the current WH resident George W. Bush) which states that, if a person cannot afford to pay their hospital bills, the hospital has every right to disconnect the machinery keeping that person alive. DESPITE THE PERSON'S WILL TO LIVE, OR OBJECTIONS BY THE FAMILY. Something that was contradicted by Gee Dumbya's action in the Terri Schiavo case . . .

But the simple fact is that we have a "justice" system in this country that allows rich people to mount a more vigorous defense than the state can put forth in its prosecution. O.J. Simpson is as guilty as Cain, but he'll spend the rest of his life signing memorabilia and golfing because he could afford a legal "Dream Team" to defend himself. If he'd been a maintenance man at the local shopping mall, he would have been executed by now.

As much as a truly believe that some people commit crimes so horrible that they should not be allowed to live (even in prison), I can't square that belief with the economic reality that almost nobody of the upper-middle class or higher has ever been executed in this country. Most never even see jail time.

Loot the local grocery store and you go to jail. Loot the pension fund of your company you get a fine and community service. Not fair.

Of course, in the case of Osama, that makes him a martyr . . . we're fucked either way. Keep him in prison, terrorists hold people hostage for release . . . execute him, he's elevated to martyr . . .

McVeigh, on the other hand, wanted to be executed under Bush . . . probably his wet dream. In truth, sticking him in the hole for 23.5 hours a day with no contact, that is a sentence I would wish on very, very few . . . but they would have to live every day for God knows how long reminded of their fate . . .

I have about a dozen firearms here and I agree with all your stances except I have my doubts about the DP.

taking my guns away than al gore.

That's how I see it. I'm a gun owner and a hunter and I'm a rural small town person and I'm liberal.

on DU, but there's nearly always a difference of opinions in any group. As long as we have more similarities of thought than differences I figure we're still working toward the same goals. You can't just change your convictions because someone disagrees with you. You have as much right to your opinions as anyone else.

on who's more likely to pry his gun from his cold dead fingers.

I pissed him off.... I said I was gonna trade both guns in for a cross bow

Think about the psychological advantage I would have over a B&E if I put two bolts in the door sill next to his head.... THUNK! THUNK!.... the next one is going in soft tissue!

First, I have to admit I would not want to be the one to administer teh injection/flip the switch whatever.

Second, I HATE the cost of administering the death penalty. If you are given life w/o parole then your appeals are limited to one. Your time in prison is spent quietly waiting unless you commit some high profile crime in prison or your victims come out with a book.

You are given the death penalty? You are put in a special prison and given more rights than any other prisoner. Lawyers line up to help you, the appeals are endless, you become a celebrity, organizations raise money to save you, and the money spent by the state to defend their decesion to end a life that has taken the lives of others is way over the top--could be better spent feeding the poor, education the masses, etc.


So I say give em life w/o parole and stop wasting the publics time and the governments money. . .but that is just me.

life in prison with no chance of parole, no tv, no weights are far worse punishment. as far as the cost think of what all the appeals that are automatic in death penalty cases. it probably evens out.

I have plenty of guns, and I get called a commie regularly, much to the amusement of my left wing friends , who think I'm too right wing.

...and against the D/P.

in hunting. i like animals more than i like most people.

There are many, many reasons for American citizens to either own guns or to let other American citizens who care about it own them. I won't go into all of those reasons here. (If the 2nd Amendment and the Bush administration's flaunting of the Constitution don't make you at least think twice about the issue, then you're just not paying attention.)

I was also pro-death-penalty until I started lurking on this very board. A good high-school friend of mine, a beautiful girl, was raped and murdered many years ago. The guy they eventually caught for it was also charged and convicted of several other rape-murders, but he was sentenced to life in prison. He has since "confessed" and "recanted" to my friend's murder many times, and he basically plays some sort of sick game with her family about the details of her murder. It's twisted, it's devastating to her family, and the execution of this sick b@$t@rd would have stopped his nonsense a long time ago.

But my own hatred for this slimeball cannot outweigh the fact that there are MANY innocent men who are killed by the state for crimes that they flat out didn't commit. That is nightmarish and wrong, and it happens a lot more often than we hear about. So that's why I'm a pro-gun but anti-death-penalty Dem.

penalty for the sake of the family. maybe they could cut his tongue out. i could justify them doing that.

as far as the guns, i lived in new york where i couldn't own one. only the bad guys had them. as soon as we moved to arizona, we bought guns. i have 2 -- i think my husband has 3. even though i live in a safe area and have a sophisticated alarm system i feel better knowing that my 38 is in my nightstand drawer.

I'm torn on the death penalty.

But I have guns, I hunt, and fall pretty squarely into liberal territory.

and don't feel inferior enough to be a Republican, ya pinko. ;-)

Death penalty states have higher murder rates.
States with gun control also have lower rates of gun deaths, although I can't locate those numbers right off the bat.

7 day waiting period (remember the simpson's episode when homer got a gun?), background checks..... anal swabs.... whatever!

you say?

Just like you I believe a convicted murderer who
also raped or tortured his/her victim deserves a
death penalty.

Just like you, I own a handgun.

But I also am against illegal immigration.

Other than that I am liberal all the way.

Abortion rights, non-discrimination, clean environment,
are all my issues.

handguns for "personal safety". Obviously you've never been in jail. How secure are you in the assuption that if you kill someone in "self-defense" that you won't go to jail? Self-defense is a slippery slope. I don't see how anyone can be for the death penalty and be pro-choice , not believe in gun control and call yourself a liberal. Would they have to pull your gun from YOUR "cold dead hands"?

and if it could be guaranteed that INNOCENT people weren't killed. But neither of these conditions exist, and so I'm anti-death-penalty.

And I am pro-choice.

And I am pro-2nd-Amendment.

And no, I'm not worried about what would happen to me if I shot a person in self-defense. You would be surprised how many handgun owners take the responsibility of gun ownership VERY seriously. I think LIBERAL gun owners take the responsibility the most serious of all.

:D

I'd be all for concealed-carry if only liberals were given licenses. :) I trust them a lot further than I trust the average right-wing Limbaugh-guzzling mouth-breather fundamentalists. I especially think persecuted minorities, gays for example, should arm themselves. I think there's a pinkpistols.org site or something like that to that effect. Good ideer, sez I.
:)

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

Most of us probably really do agree on more than we disagree.

.... although I have to admit my support for the death penalty is weakening.

The idea of armed liberals may seem foreign to the wingnut crowd, but they might as well get used to it because I got guns :)

the most important
_________________________

Borrowed from:
LynnTheDem
______________________

a super-majority of Americans are liberal in all but name

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051107/alterman


Public opinion polls show that the majority of Americans embrace liberal rather than conservative positions...
http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2002-04-16-liberal.shtml


The vast majority of Americans are looking for more social support, not less...
http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/7/borosage-r.html

http://people.umass.edu/mmorgan/commstudy.html

that you belong to a political party that opens it's arms to everyone. They try to take ownership of ideals that they perceive as conservative. I wonder if they'll take ownership of the grave they're digging for themselves.

I personally don't believe in the death penalty, but I don't consider you any more or less a liberal than me. I don't like hunting but I don't try and stop people from doing it. I agree with all the other subjects you mentioned in your post, but if I didn't I don't think that it would make me a repuke. Their party is falling apart and they know it.

There's only one thing that the repukes own and that is all of the lies that took us to war. They have the blood of thousands of people on their hands.

Let's work together and take back our country this year. Thanks for all of your nice words.

:toast:

but you're not liberal if you support the death penalty. You can consider yourself a Democrat if you choose...there's plenty of Democratic Death Penalty supporters, Al Gore and Bill Clinton for starters...but you're not a liberal just as Gore/Clinton aren't. You're just a Democrat.

Your first point even goes to back this up. "This nation has given minorities the shitty end of the stick." Case in point...THE DEATH PENALTY!

My advice to you is to look into who is being executed and then change your opinion.

But many do not share it, and see no reason to accept your view as the definive one.

The guy in your avatar and your screenname used to think that way, and I doubt you'd say he's not a liberal.

Not viewpoints they had in the past. What's on trial here is not Dennis Kucinich but this threads original poster on which his friend says he's not a liberal. I agree with the thread. And yes, that's my opinion.

I.e. I get tired of hearing about how a guy gets out of the nut house on Tuesday, goes into the mall on Wednesday and kills people with the gun he just bought.

And the death penalty is way too overused in this country for every little Circle-K convenience store robbery gone bad, etc. It should be reserved for crimes against humanity, serial killers, etc. and the evidence needs to be a hell of a lot better than it typically is. Also the lawyering for the defense needs to be a lot better. The death penalty is very racially unfair in this country because if you are rich and white you avoid the DP. Everyone else fries.

Doug D.

We don't belive in mind-think. I've seen some posters on here who believe in it as much as Bush & Co do, but they are not representative of the Democratic party.

(just kidding)

i'm a card carrying leftist radical according the right wingers on this board, and i don't give a shite about your guns, so howzat?

but you're flat out wrong about the death penalty - but that's your problem not mine. ;)

I didn't oppose the death penalty until about ten years ago, when the onslaught of DNA cases proving men innocent of crimes for which they had been convicted convinced me there is no safe death penalty, not in a world where police and prosecutors routinely lie and cheat to make capital cases. About that time, my personal feelings also shifted because I could not sanction such thoughtful killing by the state, a state of which I am a member.

But I certainly understand people who do believe in the death penalty.

I'm old school liberal, not litmus liberal, which isn't really "liberal" at all, but doctrinaire.

Big tent. I'll take everyone in the party who will vote with us on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November. You vote right on that day, and you've bought yourself the next two years as a Democrat, in my book.

I'm a gun owner too. I have always had guns. Dad shot competitively in the Army during WWll and I must've learned to shoot as soon as I was able to aim. I shoot compatibly and reload for my Glock 9mm. I admit that I'm the only non right wing nut in the shooting club.The emphasis has always been on safety. I taught my daughter to think for herself. She's a lawyer and a moderator here on DU.
I enjoy cooking.
I am a male heterosexual, liberal. But how can all that that be?? I think for myself too.
It confuses all the repugs that I know. That makes me happy. I don't give a shit what they think. I think for myself too.That is another source of confusion for them too. :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:

And I am also for the death penalty.

Sold the gun because it was getting rusty sitting in the drawer. Gave up on the death penalty when I realized how totally incompetent and unethical some people in the legal system are. Don't get me wrong. I'd personally throw the switch on some people, but there can't be any chance of error here and that rules out the death penalty.

because of one or two issues.

Me -

#1 I own a gun. I just got it a couple of weeks ago. I still have mixed emotions about having one in my household but my kids are pretty much grown now and I see how crazy this world is. If I have to use it for self-protection, I will.

#2 I own an SUV (a Honda Pilot). I bought it 2 years ago specifically for my charity work. I am very much into animal rescue and transport as well as transporting food to the wildlife refuge. I also transport for the elderly poor.

If someone says I'm not a liberal because of these two issues - fuck 'em! I'm about as liberal as it gets.

This is a representative democracy and we almost never get a candidate that we agree with 100%. So, we go with the one we think is better.

Not many dems will argue against your right to own a gun. It's a constitutionally protected right. However, dems do tend to want to have some control over who can own a gun - personally I find it a hard argument to make that our liberties are endangered if we take away the right of a diagnosed psychpath to own the weapon of his choice - but I can see where rational people can disagree.

Remember voting republican is voting for the the right of a republican president to imprison anyone without charge because he says so; and the unlimited right of a president to surreptitiously listen in on any of your conversations and/or search your house and/or personal belongings. BTW, you might ask this rethug if the president places you in prison without making any charge against you; will he (the president) still respect your right to own a gun. If not, tell the rethug he should vote democratic in order to protect his rights.

penalty yet make this statement:

<<I think that this nation (as great as it is) has given minorities, immigrants and women the shitty end of the stick.>>

Makes no sense.

I own no handguns, they're solely people killers, just rifles & shotguns -- but I do not hunt and also am an ovo-lactose vegetarian.
We skeet shoot and when I lived alone I kept one for protection.
But living on a farm, there are predators that can come around and firearms are a necessity if you want to protect your pets (Heck, they're my CHILDREN!).
Next town over, a farmer lost 4 sheep including very pregnant ewes due to a pack of dogs (domestic/roaming or wild? Who knows?).
I don't mean to cause death to any creature, but if it absolutely comes down to one of my 'children' --one whom I've loved, petted, bathed, cuddled-- and a pack of attacking dogs (or any other predators) well... it's going to be them, if death must be on the menu that day.

As for the Death Penalty, I am behind it for very certain cases .
First, the evidence must be absolute -- no jailhouse snitch, or vague science. I'm talking about concrete irrefutable evidence such as solid DNA evidence.
Second, the crime must truly be beyond evil. The Death Penalty as it is doled out today is WAY overused.
A guy brutally kills one person, one adult? Lock him up and throw away the key, but rise above vengeance. Let ourMercy reign.

However, and here's that word Predator again, but those are the only --got a serial killer?
Or a murdering, recidivist predator upon our greatest and most precious innocents, our trusting, blameless children?
A REAL hate crime? --especially including a very deliberate Hate Crime with the victim not of a different race or creed but hated because s/he was any type of law enforcement officer; one who stands with incredible bravery against these criminals to protect us, the population.

And all perps should be sane adults of at least normal intelligence. No teens, and judge very young adults with great hesitancy and caution.
Sadly, some people in this world are more dangerous than a wild, hungry, insane or mad wolf, bear or other predator. The latter kill for food or for a disease which they cannot control -- and if they are rabid they are just too dangerous to allow to live for what little time they have left.
The ones I speak of kill for lust, greed, their own twisted joy, deliberate chaos or worse.
Those reasons are not in the furthest stretch of the imagination reasonable especially in a civilized society. No girl or boy, man or woman, deserves to be tortured and slaughtered for the sake of one person's controllable lust; for an orgasm, or for entertainment.
And if these perp's lust or desire for entertainment or plain evilness is beyond their control -- well that's just too bad now. It cannot be cured, and there is only so much we the people can do and control.
Without question, they too must be held responsible for their actions.

In those cases I would consider --not fully condone or wish for-- but definitely consider the Death Penalty. I would not like it, in fact hate it; but those are my parameters.
Let a Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy or Jeffrey Dahmer live their lives out happily behind bars after they've performed DOZENS of worse-than-animalistic deaths each?
Yes, there is happiness in prison... especially for predators. It's especially easy if you have no conscience. There are notoriously easy pickings in prison -- all, again, on the weak. Just more of the same predation.
Nope. No way.


Flame me if you must... but IMO there are some terrible risks in this world that should not be taken. Over the years, as history has shown, laws change, people forget. The number of men sentenced to death or life without parole who were let out after all because of different social laws and problems such as prison overcrowding who have gone right out and brutally murdered again would make you sick.
No, it is too much and not worth the risk of any more promising, innocent lives.
They have their rights too.
So did those who were murdered, but it's too late now, they're gone.

But as for the Death Penalty parameters that are in use now -- the bar must be raised and refined.

So there.

I'm not even a gun-owner, but I live in an area of the country where hunting is a way of life.

I also covered crime for 12 years for a newspaper. I believe no length should be spared to prove the defendent actually committed the crime, but, if the evidence bears it out and he/she did commit first-degree murder, then, yes, a jury SHOULD be charged with considering the death penalty. When you've seen some of the atrocities done, particularly, to children, it makes the death penalty become a more viable option in your eyes, believe me.

I also agree with your "but list."

I've always considered myself an independent because I believed in those two "conservative" issues, but fell more on the side of "liberal" issues in other aspects.

That is what turned me against the death penalty. Also the fact that the amount of money you have to spend in your defense is directly related to whether you get it or not. As a democrat I find this repugnant.

Guns as a Democrat I like. Any freedom we can give the individual we should be supporting.

There are two reasons to be bothered by domestic spying:

1. you have something to hide, or
2. you worry the gov't will abuse this power.

I assume you fall into category 2. If that is the case, why would you worry about the gov't abusing their power to spy, but not be worried at all about them abusing their power to convict and execute?

When you think about it like this, pro-gun and pro-death penalty don't make any sense together. If you believe the people should be armed because you fear gov't abuse, then why would you want to empower the gov't to commit the worst abuse of all?