"We are far from that here...."

Quite frequently here on DU and elsewhere the assertion is made that, while these are troubled times in our republic, it is hyperbole to assert that fascism has taken over. The argument that this is not fascism frequently points out the differences between the historical experiences that led to the rise of the nazi party in Germany and our own recent history, arguing that 'we are far from that here'.

I believe that the 'we are far from that here' argument is incorrect. Certainly our recent history shares little in common with the history of Germany after the end of WWI and before the final collapse of the german republic. That is because here is not there. We are not going to repeat the german experience. However rather than that being a comfort, thinking that just because we haven't replicated the decade long economic and political crisis that led to the installation of Hitler as chancellor and the overthrow of the republic, 'we aren't there yet' is a misreading of current events.

We are now in a one party tyranny. That fact became official when the executive announced on two separate occasions that legislative and constitutional law no longer applied to the executive branch, using as justification the constitutional role of commander in chief and a permanent although unofficial state of war. The tyranny uses corrupt elections and nearly complete control over mass media to retain formal control over all three branches of government, but it is an open question as to what actions it would take were it to actually lose an election. The form of the tyranny is a typical deformed republic one party government, where through corruption and manipulation the ruling party has more or less guaranteed continuous rule. Our neighbor to the south, Mexico, had a similar experience with its PRI that lasted from the late 20's to the early 90's. Hopefully we will not see such longevity from our rulers.

Is it fascism yet? Who knows. We will figure that out when it is all over. The ruling party certainly uses many of the traditional elements of fascism: extreme nationalism, disdain for human rights, identification of a scapegoat enemy as a unifying cause, supremacy of the military, control of the mass media, intertwining of religion and government, collusion of corporate power and government (kleptocracy), are certainly discernible in our new order. We do not have the strutting militarism of Hitler or Mussolini - not to that degree, but that is more a matter of style rather than substance. This is certainly not your 1930's fascism. It is, as the saying goes, a kinder gentler fascism.

Is it totalitarian? Not yet, but the mechanisms for totalitarian control are in place. There are two key elements that have been fostered by The Cabal that could in fact lead directly to totalitarian rule if they decide to go this route. First, they have in place a system of monitoring that is far beyond the capabilities of the totalitarian regimes of the left and right in the 30's and 40's. The monitoring capabilities of the NSA and similar organizations are universal. They can listen in to everyone on a continuous basis. Secondly, the regime has developed a separate armed force outside of the institutional armed forces, a mercenary army, controlled directly by the administration without any oversight and without a long tradition of obedience to constitution and law rather than to office holders. Alongside that mercenary army they have developed a secret prison system and its complement of obedient jailers ready and willing to perform their tasks without question. The ingredients are all there. Will we even know when they have been turned against us?

Maybe not this week but it will. I believe this is how they will continue to demonize us. It may sound far fetched now but everything that has happen thus far seemed far fetched just a few years ago.

...but that link of democrats (read subliminally: "the opposition") to the bogeyman of "terrorism" is being made.

So many American's these days think in terms of these broad indistinct strokes of meaning, that it could be only a matter of time before suspicion and fear take hold with dangerous results for some/many of the rest of us. I don't like this one bit.

but I don't think it's working. The right-wing commentators screech about how Osama is a Democrat, but most of America just yawns. It reminds me of the "War on Christmas" they tried so hard too push, w/o much success. I think maybe Americans have stopped taking these guys seriously.

That "War on Christmas" thing was so lame it was actually fun. But this... Well, I hope you're right Marie26.

:-)
J

The rightwing hate radio makes frequent calls for what amounts to 'death to Democrats'. We are, as in the Chris Matthews example, equated with the hated external enemy, the bogeyman OBL.

Look this is quite understandable. Nobody really wants to deal with the reality of the situation here - I certainly don't. To go back to the German parallel - quite a few Germans simply pretended that what was obviously happening wasn't really happening - until it was way too late in the game. Remember that Hitler took power in 1933 - and that overt official brutality against Jews did not take place until Kristallnacht - October 1938. In the interim denial was quite the fashion.

we discussed this the other night, and some denier said "There are no groups of people being sent off to death camps" as if that were the first thing the Nazis did.

remember, nothing is true unless Rush and Tweety say it's true.

"...is more a matter of style rather than substance. This is certainly not your 1930's fascism."

And certainly not your typical U.S. Democratic Republic either.

That'd be best said as your pre-1980's "Democracy". (referring to the U.S. Democratic Republic as it existed prior to the first major successful wave of twisted Republican thinking--ie. Reagan Administration).

Alas, within any population there are groups of people susceptible to twisted, self-centered thinking--a kind of thinking that always lays claim to the moral "high-ground" and desires to control the lives and behaviors of others--to make them think, act and behave according to one set of rules, their rules. Once upon a time, though, this group of "Conservatives" was recognized for the sham they represent and weren't able to have things their way. Alas, with massive investment from somewhat hidden wealthy benefactors, the development of strategic "think tanks" and a carefully laid battle plan which was implemented over several decades--with a small change here, and a small change there, they gained control over the media. From there, they began promoting their ideologies as "main stream". Young people were presented with a view of the U.S. in which "Conservative" attitudes were made to appear normal, common or even accepted. Twenty years later, they're members of Congress and think this is what America has always been about.

Slow changes over long periods of time can remake whole cultures. It laid the groundwork for the Republicans to come within striking distance of majority in government. Alas, another group who was cloaking themselves under the Conservative image, managed to actually achieve power under that image. The citizenry guilty of being Conservatives themselves have been surprisingly slow in their realization that this ultra-radical little group has preyed upon them, using them to get elected under the false-pretenses that they were Conservatives too... I refer to the NeoCons. As for all the other Conservatives who had been elected to form this majority across all three branches, they were so "giddy" with power that they looked upon the strange decisions and wants they were witnessing coming from the Neocons as being no big deal--after all, they were Conservatives too--and given that they brought the Executive Branch along with them, a necessary group of "Conservatives". Needing them and not realizing they were selling their souls, the rest of the Conservatives just went along--thinking that these things they were doing was just necessary part of having total power. Indeed, having such power causes ecstacy as well as delirium. Only now are they beginning to realize what a spot that strange little perverted bunch of Conservatives called Neocons has gotten them into. However, in for an ounce, in for a pound... They can't back out now, and besides, they are getting alot of what they want from power in spite of or even in agreement with the Neocons.

Alas, in both cases--be it the remaining "Conservatives" or the corrupt Neocons, there is a built-in, un-American approach... It's that they both want absolute power and neither wants two parties in America. They desire a government of, by and for Republicans. The rest of the population can go to Hell and will be marginalized until they realize the error of their ways and become Republicans (Conservatives, Religiously Right, or Neocons) themselves! They seem to think that because they still go through the motions of having elections that this is still a Democracy. The Conservatives even sort of admit that they know that black-box voting has been fraudulently manipulated to ensure their success by the fact that they support it and thwart attempts to make it more difficult to commit fraud/falsify electoral results. Most don't know for a certainty that such fraud has been perpetrated, but would have to be blind not to see the liklihood of it. Nevertheless, they're more than happy to take advantage of it--and with a straight face still claim that this is a "Democracy"--just one in which one party always wins. Democracy, in their opinion, is Good--so long as they are the majority!

I'll never cease to be amazed at the fact that the 51% "majority" of the people can happily dictate and control the lives of the 49% "minority", as though they had every "right" to do so; while ignoring the fact that our Constitutional Republic was designed to prevent that very thing... Alas, it was just so easy to use that majority to remove the protections built into the system. Now we face true "Majority Rule". Whenever all power resides in one group and is exercised over the many, when at least some of those being ruled are unwilling, we have signs of totalitarian rule. The "willing" may not feel it, but it is authoritarian to those who don't agree.

One natural consequence of any group having finally come to power after a long struggle to achieve it is that they are likely to try to use that power to alter the system to ensure their continued dominance. So we'll see more black-boxes with no paper trail. We'll see even more gerrymandering. Meanwhile, the courts will be packed with "Conservative" judges to yield "Conservative" interpretations of the law and fail to reject un-Constitutional laws (just because they suit the Conservative's preferences). Likewise, we can expect the government to act in ways that are intolerable to enlightened and liberal thinking minds alike. More egregious still are the aspects of curtailed civil rights and the Conservative/Neoconservative penchant for turning to torture, imprisonment without recourse, and oppression of all sorts and varieties.

That no one will be allowed to complain and may well be mistreated if they are found to be working against the one party rule... we really will have reached at least a form of fascism. Remembering that much of what this government will be about is the unquestioned support of business, revocation of corporate regulation and the enhancement of capitalism (increasing the profits to the wealthy at the expense of labor), this all begins to better and better fit the definition of fascism.

Excellent comments.

I think that is the point of my post. Mr. Gore laid it out in black and white terms in his well researched and excellently written speech, a speech that never had a chance of being discussed in the mass media. Our Republic has quite simply been quietly overthrown. The question all of us now face is what to do about it.

or Corporate Theo-Fascism... or perhaps Theo-Fascist Corpism*** or Corpocracy**...

(just having a little word fun)(note, dashes are optional and each "link" above refers to a different related website)

**for a more on this one, see Global Corpocracy

***resulting in more corpses.

the moment we declared US citizens to be "enemy combatants" who aren't entitled to constitutional rights. The only question now is how far it goes.

chilling remarks that I heard during the "Basement Hearings" was a comment made by James Bamford. I don't have the exact quote, but it was along the lines of: because of the capabilites that the NSA currently has, should this country be overtaken by a dictator it will be very difficult for the people of this country to remedy the situation in the form of rebellion. The NSA will be able to listen in on everyone so it will be difficult for people to meet, to discuss or to plan a way to rid themselves from tyranny.

Rebellion may well begin within its ranks, too.

Not everyone in government agencies is an automaton, or a bushborg. When a majority of the country is suppressed, and Democrats are the majority party (to the best of my knowledge), then the country is on its way to collapsing economically and socially. The main reason people work is to survive, but there must be the added benefit of advancing oneself and believing that the lives of one's children will be better.

I do believe we are seeing a subtle and pervasive form of fascism, a sort of creeping encroachment. Alito is the fulcrum. That's about all I can say at this point, because I am useless at comparing history to current events. I'm just going by what I've been able to process mentally and at a gut level.

But those within the NSA are very well aware of the monitoring capabilities and would have to very careful, I would tend to think.

You might find this article on modern day fascism an interesting read if you haven't read it already: www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism_Fascism_Then.Now.html

to be "on the team". Let's face it, someone who takes a job with an organization whose main focus is spying would tend to fit a certain profile. So IOW if you are looking for help within the NSA you're probably going to have to wait a fairly long time.

I break out in hives every time I see the media or posters here refer to the NSA monitoring system as 'wiretaps'. This is so far beyond wiretaps. I don't think most people understand what you or I or Mr. Bamford are talking about. It hasn't quite sunk in what a system that does universal continuous monitoring of all electronic communications means.

As to your other point, my personal opinion is that the only way out of this mess is going to be widespread nonviolent civil disobedience, and we are going to have to be brave beyond comprehension, and even then there will be no guarantee of success. In the long run it may be that we will simply have to keep the fires of liberty, of the enlightenment, quietly alive and just wait them out until their system collapses of its own accord.

Sometimes I think that I don't truly want to know what all of the capabilities are :hide:. I read about it, try to digest and come to terms with that, and then read a little more about it. I suppose now may be the time to really dig deeper and totally knock the blinders completely off!

Anti Alito Petition list:

http://www.oneamericacommittee.com/opposealito

http://www.democrats.org/alito

https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?id=367&page=UserA

http://www.ppaction.org/campaign/roberts_roeCall/forwar

http://www.usalone.com/alito.php

http://www.moveonpac.org/stopalito

http://ga4.org/campaign/alito_petition

http://www.workingforchange.com/activism/action.cfm?ite
(then search for Alito petition…on list of petition actions)

http://www.naral.org/

http://www.emailtocongress.com/no_rightwing.htm

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizations/ccr/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=2104

http://ga3.org/campaign/opposealito

"I think we're at a time in American history that's probably analogous to, maybe, Rome before the first emperors, when the Republic started to fall... I think if you look at the pattern of events, if you look at the disputed election of 2000, can you imagine? In America, people are trying to recount ballots and a partisan mob is pounding on the glass and threatening the counters? Can you imagine that? Can you imagine a political party which does its best to keep any representatives from another party — who've even been affiliated with another party — from getting a business job in the nation's capital? Can you imagine a political party that wants to redistrict so that its opponents can be driven out entirely?...it's a different time in America and the Republic is - this election is about a lot more than jobs. I'm not sure everybody in America sees it right now. But I see it, I feel it." - General Wesley Clark, November 5,2003

New Hampshire Public Radio did a series of long free ranging interviews with Democratic candidates for President prior to the 2003 NH Primary. They were conducted by host Laura Know for the show, "The Exchange". She had each major candidate on twice, the first time explored background and general beliefs, the second time specific issues. This quote comes from the first interview she conducted with General Clark. It is still available to be listened to at their archive at: http://www.nhpr.org/node/5339

The above quote comes at about the 40:40 point of the interview. At about 35:25 Clark is asked about the Military Industrial Complex, and his answer to that is also straight forward and important. Also earlier in the interview, by the way, Clark talks about how War creates enemies. If you have the time and interest, it is an excellent interview.

"The early period of the rule of Hitler in Germany and Mussolini were marked by weakening and destruction of the unions, marginalization of dissenting opinions, extreme national pride, branding of dissenters as traitors, depression of wages and upward transfer of wealth, and blame for the nation's problems on vague and/or irrelevant groups (like) Bolsheviks, Jews, gypsies, and union members"

Does this sound at all familiar?

Very well put.. It is a constant battle.

:nominated:

this a.m., it's so clear, so unavoidably clear, that they know how to do this and get away with it -- all they have to do is say all the right things. And then do just as they damn please.

They've gotten away with SO MUCH, so very much. And they may be about to get away with the NSA thing. Look -- all they are doing is a week-long PR push. Let's see how it works for them. Bush feels very strongly that it'll all work out just fine, as will the Alito nomination. At some point they've got to be STOPPED, and stopped cold.

I'm not holding my breath.