Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Rats....Bush has set the terms of the Health-Care Issue.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 01:49 PM
Original message
Rats....Bush has set the terms of the Health-Care Issue.
Bush is going to put out a ridiculpous, meaningless set of health-care "reforms" tonight.

I hate to be negative, but Dammit! They've done it again. Tossed us a sucker punch.

This should have been an issue for the Democrats to be Pro-Active on. We should already be identified as the Party of Health Care. We should already have a clear alternative strategy to the present mess out there on the table long ago. This debate should be on our terms, with the Republicans reacting to OUR ideas, not the other way around.

But instead Bush will propose and we will react. We'll react with indignation and outrage. We'll be right. But we will be reacting.

So therefore, instead of debating real ideas (like single-payer universal care or a government-backed public voluntary health care program) we'll be wasting our time whining about how tax breaks for health insurance isn't a good idea.

Maybe, as was the case with Social Security, we'll beat back Bush's proposals temnporarily. Or not.

The point is that we should have been the ones to "frame" this debate long ago. Instead we now have to react to the framing that Bush will set down.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. If the response to his social security plan is any indication...
There's little reason for alarm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dusmcj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. why ? tell them their shit stinks, and suggest a better alternative. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. We should have been proposing better alternatives since 92
Bill Clinton was elected partly because of his promise to reform health care. But after the initial failure of HillaryCare he and most Democrats walked away from that issue.

Healthcare is onen of those issues we should have been relentlessly pounding. Evgeryone knows the present system is a broken mess.

My own favorite, by the way, would be a medical equivalent opf the US Postal Service. A government backed program that is available and accessible to everyone. Those who prefer to use private health care (Federal Express, UPS) instead could still do that. But there would be the equivalent of a public medical delivery service available to every American.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wishlist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. I saw Ted Kennedy just last night proposing sweeping health care reform
Kennedy last night talked at length on TV about the need for health care reform. He promoted the idea of making the successful Medicare doctor and hospital coverage available to everyone and challenged Bush to mention in the State of the Union fixing the disastrous new Medicare prescription drug coverage. He mentioned how having so many different private insurance companies involved had made the plan much too complicated and confusing for participants.

He also debunked Bush's primary health care proposal, the health savings accounts saying that although it would benefit higher income Americans, it would not provide any substantial relief to most Americans who cannot afford to save enough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Ted is spot on - but the media gives his proposals no independent
review, analysis, or discussion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Kennedy is a DEMOCRAT -- He's been fighting for this for years
I'm saying the whole damn party should have been more like Ted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. ? - we have, we did, and the media ignored the party with few votes
What could the Democratic Party have done in addition to what it did?

I've posted articles at DU that make clear that 75% of the savings the rest of the world has with universal compared to our insurance system is due to the different basic structure and only 25% is due limits on benefits.

I posted articles that made clear that it is the uninsured that cause most of the fast rising cost of health insurance, and that with the cut back in corporate benefits packages it is getting worse.

And many have posted on how tax benefits to the "other half - those below the average family income" will do nothing to increase the percentage that get a planned self insurance, since a tax cut measured in hundreds of dollars, at best, can not offset a medical cost paid via high deductible insurance plus a HSA that in effect costs 5,000 to $10,000.

If the media ignores - what can Democrats do?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. What thje Democrats can do is keep pounding and pounding
The media are biased and trashy. But if the Democratic party as an entity made a concerted campaign through talk shows and other forms of direct outreach, they can get the visibility on issues like this.

The problem is we just either use a scattershot approach individually, or we parrot Republican "private sector" reforms that are meaningless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Dean is trying to get our herd of cats to agree on a"platform" for 06, but
we have folks with more ego than brains wanting to add value.

I agree the individually attempted scattershot approach of posting, email, talk show call in, etc., does little to move the discussion - but we are pushing on a rope here at DU.

Next week the Mass Dems are holding caucuses for new members - foot soldiers - and that really is the only way to get our points both heard and incorporated - I hope - in the Democratic Party unified message.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. my dad is a solid repuke
mostly because my parents are fundies, but his health insurance is so high and getting higher by leaps and bounds every year, that he is ready to listen to nationalized health care. He told me as much. People are SICK of being raped on health insurance. IF we can explain this in a way that sounds good and sounds like it will save people alot of money, I think we can sell nationalized health care. I'm in that same boat myself - I'm not for it yet, but I think I could be sold with a good paln.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. That's how we got the ridiculous prescription drug
program that is just a give away to Pfizer. They are the only ones that get to have a proposal that sees the light of day and we have to take it or leave it. All their "ideas" are just give aways to some corporation or another. The biggest problem is if democrats propose ideas it just gets killed immediately and then we're the party of no ideas! Even if that was true I'd rather be the party of no ideas than be the party of corporate give aways. Maybe our ideas will get some press during the election but I'm not holding my breath.

I'm sure we will hear about health savings accounts (which mostly benefit the rich) stopping people from suing (which helps large corporations) and maybe more prescription drug big pharma give aways? Republican 'ideas' on health care are ridiculous even for them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. I don't understand
Democrats have been talking about health care reform for years. The fact that the American voter doesn't vote based on this issue is the reason not one damn thing has been done about the issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Talking about it in vague terms
It's one thing to say "We support reform of the healthcare system" and actually presenting actual plans and submitting and resubmitting and pushing it to the public. Sure individual plans might get bl;ockled by the GOP, but the fight and ideas themselves would be out there in the public.

This has been a major concern of Americans since the 1980's.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueManDude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. I doubt his proposal's will go anywhere
i'm usually pretty pesimistic but even within hos own party he's got no credibility on anything not related to "terrorism".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. No, no, no. All Dems have to do is point ot Medicare and SS "reforms"
touted by Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Well, we have the Medicare ":reform" and SS "reform" is not dead yet.
Edited on Tue Jan-31-06 02:19 PM by Armstead
SS is a good illustration of what seperates Republicans from us in terms of effectiveness.

Sure it was swatted down, but it's not dead yet. The GOP will keep coming back and coming back with new variations, and they will not give up. Eventually they will chip away at the edifice, and CONvince Americans that the SS system is sinking and private accounts are a feasible alternative.

We should have been doing something similar on health care for years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Budget to Hurt Poor People on Medicaid, Report Says
Budget to Hurt Poor People on Medicaid, Report Says

By ROBERT PEAR
Published: January 30, 2006

WASHINGTON, Jan. 29 — Millions of low-income people would have to pay more for health care under a bill worked out by Congress, and some of them would forgo care or drop out of Medicaid because of the higher co-payments and premiums, the Congressional Budget Office says in a new report.

The Senate has already approved the measure, the first major effort to rein in federal benefit programs in eight years, and the House is expected to vote Wednesday, clearing the bill for President Bush.

In his State of the Union address on Tuesday, Mr. Bush plans to recommend a variety of steps to help people obtain health insurance and cope with rising health costs. But the bill, the Deficit Reduction Act, written by Congress over the last year with support from the White House, could reduce coverage and increase the number of uninsured, the budget office said.

(snip)

The report gives Democrats new ammunition to attack the bill. But they appear unlikely to defeat it, since the House approved a nearly identical version of the legislation by a vote of 212 to 206 on Dec. 19.

(snip)

"About one-third of those affected would be children, and almost half would be individuals with income below the poverty level," the report said in addressing co-payments for prescription drugs.

Continued @ http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/30/politics/30budget.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. Please also see this thread on the budget cuts...
One day left. NO excuses. Please, DUers. Do it. JUST DO IT!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2422907
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. If the following is Bush's proposal....
It'll be just as popular as his plans for Social Security and don't forget, his Medicare D plan is a total disaster. I doubt Americans will be excited about anything else Bush has to say about our health.

President Bush told the Wall Street Journal in an interview published today that he would be pushing "innovative programs" like "association health care plans" in his state of the union address. Take note of the term. The Bush-adopted "Association health plan" racket has been one of the biggest scams ever perpetrated against patients in the United States, and that takes into account the attrocities committed by HMOs against their patients. Bush's solution to the nation's health care woes is insurance that offers no insuring.

Here's how the association health plan fraud works. Patients who are insured by these low-premium junk policies can wind up owing hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills. That's right -- an insured patient in the United States can wind up paying unlimited amounts for serious medical conditions. That's because these skeletal benefit policies have no out-of-pocket maximum for how much you have to pay for your own treatment. But there is a limit on how much the insurers will pay for a whole range of treatments, from hospitalization to chemo.

Under "Bush-care," these association health plans would be peddled to far more people and removed from all state regulation and lawsuits which currently hold them accountable for some of the fraud they committ. The Department of Labor would have sole jurisdiction, rather than every state's courts, legislature, attorney general and insurance commissioner. If you want to understand the nighmare of these Bush-backed junk policies, consider the horror story of Doug Christensen told by the Los Angeles Times. He and his wife were marketed an association health plan policy through a phony association with a nice enough sounding name -- The National Association of Self-Employed, basically a shell group existing only to sell the junk insurance. The policy paid near nothing when Doug had a re-occurrence of his cancer. On his death bed, Doug asked Dana to divorce him to avoid liability for the half million dollars in bills that the association health plan wouldn't pay. Welcome to Bush Care. The first call Democratic Congressional leaders should make after the state of the union is for Dana Christensen to have a sit down with the President.

Bush-care is not just about letting traditional HMOs and insurers steal our money, then giving us a tax deduction to soften the blow of the theft, rather than stopping it. It's about giving credibility to insurance that isn't insurance. Without a limit on how much a patient can pay out of their own pocket for health care, insurance isn't worth a dime.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie-court/state-of-bushs-secret-he_b_14473.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, but will it lead to anything positive?
The problem is that Bush may get hoisted by his own petard..or not.

But if it is defeated (after much effort) we'll merely be back to Square One, instead of advancing towasrds some actual solution.

Part of the framing of the right wing is that health care is "too complicated" do solve, and that the markets are the best solution. That's the same reasoning that has prevented any real progress on an unpopular system that is hurting everyone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sable302 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
21. Bringing up healthcare
only works in our favor. IT's like Democrats and national defense. No matter how much Democrats come out in favor of a strong national defense, people always think that Republicans are stronger and better on that issue.

Democrats bringing up national defense only seems to work in the Republican's favor. Remember 1988?

I think it will be the reverse with healthcare. The more Republicans have to bring up domestic issues (healthcare being the most important one), the better chance we can win votes with our own strong platform. They lost it on the economy and healthcare in '92, and they'll lose it again with this one.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I'll agree IF we actually come out with something
The problem I am alluding to is the fact that for the next several months, we will be responding to Bush's fucked up plan, instead of actually advancing our own.

There's a bif difference in perception that is created by a party that is proposing and pushing an agenda, and one that is always reacting and responding.

Frankly, I'm mmore interested in getting something done on this issue than partisan advantage. Until the Democrats come up with a small handful of actual proposals to maker healthcare affordable and accessible to every American, we will just be trying to keep our fingers in the dike.

We need the kind of large scale ideas and tactics that brought about Medicare. Otherwise, all we will be doing ios trying to prevent the GOP from making a bad system worse, while convincing people that they are actually fixing it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
22. Another chance for us to "eat up" "ownership society" ideals. This
Edited on Tue Jan-31-06 02:40 PM by applegrove
plan will make private health care "even worse" than it is already.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
23. His plan's going NOWHERE.
People don't trust the man. Look at what he did to MEDICARE! There's NO way the people will ever accept this. No way. And as you mentioned, his SS plan went nowhere either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Whiskey Priest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. He is running out the same old tired, moth-eaten crap
Edited on Tue Jan-31-06 03:11 PM by The Whiskey Priest
they never give up on anything. HSAs do not work...and the people can see they don't work....they have been a bust when offered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. You just hit on the basic problem. THEY never give up. We do.
Edited on Tue Jan-31-06 03:13 PM by Armstead
Sure he is offering moth-eaten crap that will do more harm than good.

But it's part of the larger pattern of them pushing and pushing until their awful ideas become enshrined as the norm.

We do more of a hit-and-run approach. That's part of the reason we don't have the majority on our side. I honestly think, if given a chance, a majority would favor what liberals really want for health care. But we don't have the guts or consistency to offer it, so the GOP bad ideas keep making advances.

We've got to change that to become as relentless and principled as the GOP. (By principled, I don;t mean good. I just mean actually pursuing an agenda based on consistent principles, bad as those principles are).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-31-06 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. way to lose before you've even fought
this picture ain't hung yet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 05th 2024, 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC