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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:15 AM
Original message
Wes Clark comments on death of ex-Yugoslav leader
<DRACUT -- Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, in town yesterday for U.S. Rep. Marty Meehan's 11th annual St. Patrick's Day Breakfast, said the death of former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic before he could be convicted on war-crimes charges will hurt the region he plunged into war more than a decade ago.

"Milosevic, he was ill, and I always hate to see somebody die," Clark, 61, who oversaw NATO forces in Europe during the Kosovo conflict, said in a brief interview before yesterday's breakfast.

"But he was a war criminal, and the truth is his death before he was convicted of his war crimes complicates Serbia's path to rejoin the western community of nations," Clark said. "His conviction of war crimes would have been a very significant milestone for accounting for the tragedy that he promoted for a decade in Yugoslavia.

"He not only presided over a murderous force, but he, in my view, planned, organized and stimulated it," Clark said.

Clark, who leads the political-action committee Securing America, is considered a potential candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2008. Yesterday, he said though "I haven't really thought about 2008" he has not ruled out another run, but he added that his foremost concern is seeing the Democratic incumbents and challengers succeed in November's congressional races.

"One part now controls the Congress, the White House and the Supreme Court," he said. "It's a dangerous moment for American Democracy when you can't have a balanced discussion." >


http://www.lowellsun.com/local/ci_3595085
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. a murderous force
Edited on Mon Mar-13-06 04:43 AM by reorg
" ... Milosevic was charged with 66 counts of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. At the time when he first appeared in The Hague, CNN called it "the most important trial since Nuremburg." But during the proceedings, the prosecution wasn't able to clearly establish Milosevic's responsibility for atrocities, some witnesses were exposed as liars, and even the crimes' scope has been questioned.

Forensic evidence confirms that no bodies were mutilated in Racak, the scene of the disputed killings that triggered the US-led Kosovo war. Rade Markovic, once head of Yugoslavia's secret service, eventually testifying for his old boss, claimed he was subjected to "pressure and torture" to sign a court statement. Another "insider" witness, Ratomir Tanic, was paid by British intelligence.

Concerning the worst massacre - several thousand men and boys killed in Srebrenica in 1995 - no evidence challenged a five year inquiry commissioned by the Netherlands. It concluded that there was "no proof that orders for the slaughter came from Serb political leaders in Belgrade." Meanwhile, the UN wasn't held responsible for failing in its duty to protect the people in the area. ..."

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/22/22231/1.html


Jared Israel, Emperor's Clothes * 12 March 2006:

"... Regarding the death of Milosevic, here are my immediate comments: Milosevic's death while incarcerated at The Hague - like the deaths of other Serbs before him - is at minimum an outrage. He asked for, and Russia agreed to provide, first rate care for his serious heart condition. The Hague Tribunal demanded special guarantees; the Russian government provided them. Nevertheless, the request was denied, apparently without explanation. Even apart from the statement made by Milosevic's lawyer, Mr. Tomanovic, that Milosevic thought he was being poisoned, this denial was itself foul play. And The Hague has also denied his family's demand that an autopsy be conducted in Russia. Why?

How can a UN organization justify denying medical care to a prisoner, not to mention an elected head of state? How, even if he had been guilty as charged? But he was not guilty of war crimes. Despite the media claims, Milosevic was not a war criminal. And despite some of his rhetoric at The Hague, he was also not a heroic opponent of NATO. In truth, he was an appeaser who tried to curry favor with the West, to the fury of the ordinary people whose interests he betrayed. The fact that, despite this, The Hague Tribunal, a creature of NATO, seized him, put him on trial, and finally killed him, at the very least through criminal negligence, says much about the character of the leaders of the International Community that sponsored the resurgent Croatian, Moslem and Albanian fascists who wrecked havoc on Yugoslavia, followed by NATO bombing."

http://www.tenc.net/


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capi888 Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Wes Clark has article today in WSJ
I don't have a subscription, however, it partially posted on his community website. Prolly will be posted in its entirety somewhere soon.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. The entire text is posted now
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Completely bogus sources
Providing bullshit information.

"Various human rights groups estimate that Milosevic is responsible for the deaths of about 250,000 people, and for creating several million refugees who were forced to flee from the war zones of the former Yugoslavia all across Europe. In Srebrenica alone, Bosnian Serb soldiers massacred more than 8,000 Muslim men and boys in cold blood in 1995. Then, in 1999, Serbian forces killed several thousand ethnic Albanians and forced 800,000 out of their homes, creating a huge surge of refugees."
http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060312-022057-5394r

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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. i'm not sure
what estimates of "various human rights groups" have got to do with anything I quoted.

The issue, in case you have missed it, is whether or not Milosevic was the source of all evil in the Yugoslav wars. The Hague tribunal failed to prove this. To the contrary, evidence was presented that Milosevic did not know of the Srebrenica attack beforehand. Some "massacres" probably didn't even happen. Nobody has ever denied that Serbia fought the KLA - resulting in many deaths. But there was no evidence (nor accusation) of genocide (contrary to many many claims by the self-declared savious at the time who were responsible for quite a bit of killing themselves).



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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. The question is will the Milosovic apologist go away now that he's dead...
or will they continue to find excuses to justify the death of 250,000+ while he was in power?

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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. many many deaths
caused by outside interference of interested parties, the US, but also the Europeans. I realise that some Democrats are particularly involved here, emotionally, you have to defend your leaders or something. Some of you really want to believe in a beneficial role of your vast military complex. You probably have good intentions, but I believe that you are being manipulated. There are no good wars. This one was used by politicians in my country, infamous for its history, to become accepted once again as a war party, in violation of its own constitution. We have now our killers in Afghanistan, and will soon be killing people in Africa and maybe even in the Middle East. What is left of the Left could not prevent this, or even raise our voices loudly, and I am deeply ashamed of this fact. So, in answer to your question: no, we will never stop to lament that support of imperialism will result in hundreds of thousands of deaths.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Lucky then that the United States stayed out of Rwanda
Think how many people might have died had that imperialist American penetration of a sovereign African state not been thwarted.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. ever thought of the possibility
that the UN stayed out of Rwanda because they were too busy in other places?

Google Kofi Annan and Clinton and Rwanda, maybe you'll find something. And if you are really curious, try and find out what Osama was doing at the time ...

Sorry if I hurt your feelings calling the US an imperialist power. Wasn't nice of me, I guess.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. We are not the UN, we are the US...and the US clearly stayed
out or Rwanda....

The issue is that there are times when the US should intervene...case in point--Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo and maybe one day Dafur (where we are at 350,000+ deathtoll, if not more).

That's the point.

It ain't all or nothing.

Kosovo was the right thing to do, and it did STOP the Genocide from occuring...in the way that it had elsewhere.

Milosovic was an imperialistic Nationalistic nut who was responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands...regardless of the US being this or that type of power.

The issue was Milosovic, not the U.S. or the U.N. -- Try not to confuse things.

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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. the UN on behalf of the US
stayed out. Remember Nick Nolte in Hotel Rwanda? The guy he was modelled from, a Canadian, had asked for additional forces and they were denied (by Mr. Annan, on orders from above).

You are wrong, the US military has no business whatsoever to intervene anywhere, and that includes NATO. Peacekeeping is the business of the UN alone.

As to Kosovo, there was no genocide, not in effect and not in the making. You should inform yourself instead of parroting the old memes that you were told so as to gain public support for a stronghold of the US in the Balkans, where they now enjoy a favourable environment for the new pipeline along the Albanian border. With the commander of Operation Storm in Croatia (sought for war crimes in Serbia), Agim Ceku, now at the helm, Kosovo will soon be independent and an even more reliable ally of the victorious forces.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. 'you'....SO, who are YOU??? 'profile is DISABLED'
it would be nice to know what country you're posting from......your post doesn't sound like you're in the US
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. that's right, I'm posting from Germany n/t
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. didn't a major German author (Peter Schneider??) support Serbia
against what he claimed was a Western campaign of lies?????
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. yes, that would be Peter Handke
Edited on Mon Mar-13-06 09:45 PM by reorg
Not usually known as a political writer, he has/had family in Yugoslavia and took issue with the demonization of all things Serbian at the time. I watched him once confronting an entire auditorium filled with journalists who tried to shout him down, a spectacle of sorts. He called the war propagandists "Marsians" and went to Belgrade when the bombing began.

Peter Schneider went along with the humanitarian interventionists as far as I recall, a former "new left" hedonist who is now part of the establishment (anti Left party and so on).
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. thanks....once you wrote Handke, I remembered
there was a major controversy over his stand, wasn't there???
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. A lot of Germans sympathize with Serbia
Unhappy with being forced to take responsibility for Hitler, the Holocaust, and WWII, they rebel against any effort to make Serbia take responsibility for Milosevic and the genocide in the Balkans.

Sort of ironic, given that the Serbs were one of the few peoples of the region who tried to resist Hitler's Germany. They suffered for it.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #48
55. it's exactly the other way round
First, it would be a gross exaggeration to claim that "a lot" of Germans sympathised with the Serbs. There were some, but not too many. Those who remembered Germany's role in the world war, when Kosovo Albanians and Croatian fascists were allied with the Nazis while most Serbs resisted and fought the Nazis until the end of WWII. Only among those Germans who are ashamed of and take responsibility for our Nazi past, who are skeptical of media propaganda, were Serbs, or rather Yugoslavs, able to muster moral support, unfortunately without practical effect.

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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
72. How many is "a lot"?
I didn't mean a large percentage, but I do think there are many in raw numbers. Just from my experience living in Germany for a number of years.

I don't think I ever met a Yugoslav resident of Germany who was "ashamed of" or took responsibility for Germany's Nazi past. And why should they? Very few are German citizens, since it's not automatic for having been born there (like it is in the US). Fewer still have forebearers who were in Germany during or before WWII.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. maybe five percent
the traditional and pacifist left, some couldn't care less about Serbs, or believed everything what was written, but were in opposition to the war nevertheless.

I said Germans (some) are ashamed of Germany's role in Yugoslavia during WWII. The Yugoslavs in Germany are mostly emigrants for economic reasons. There have always been a number of political emigrants, Croatian fascists/nationalists mostly, as far as I know. During the wars many war refugees arrived, some of whom quickly assimilated and stayed. Kosovar Albanians were also flooding in during the nineties. I believe the latter were the largest or second-largest foreigner group in German prisons.

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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #31
56. that would be an understatement

he was vilified, slandered, flat-out called a blockhead and idiot in all major papers.

He had received the most prestigious award for German language writers (he is actually Austrian, I believe) when he was around thirty or so. Handed it back during the scandal, said he didn't want to keep an award from shitheads (or some such words to this effect).
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
38. I was on standby to go in there
We waited on tenterhooks, and then were told to stand down. Had to get a shitload of shots too.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. The "jury" is still out
You can't say the Hague tribunal failed to prove anything because the trial is not finished and no findings have been published. Now that Milosevic is dead, perhaps it will never be. But from what I've read, heard and seen, there is plenty of evidence that Milosevic and Serbs did every last thing they're accused of. And for every witness who has been discredited (and in every major trial, there are always a few), there have been literally hundreds whose testimony stands.

The source I provided was UPI. There are scads of other reputable sources which document the genocide. Such as Dr. Sadako Okata, who was the UN High Commissioner for Refugees at the time. And Samatha Power, who won a pulitzer Prize for her work in the field. And David Rieff, free-lance journalist and author. And just about every news source outside of Serbia itself. The list is almost endless.

The only people I ever find denying or questioning what Milosevic did always turn out to be either
1) Serb and/or Russian apologists,
2) those who despise Muslims,
3) those who despise Bill Clinton,
3) those who despise every action the US government is involved in.

You all have about as much credibility as neo-nazis discussing the Holocaust.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. there is no jury in The Hague
in case you didn't notice. This court is clearly supposed to carry out victor's justice, e.g. well-founded allegations of war crimes committed by NATO, supported by evidence, were summarily dismissed.

The prosecution case in the Milosevic trial is long finished, the defence case almost. There is ample documentation of all trial proceedings, lots and lots of transcripts and video, look here: http://hague.bard.edu/video.html

I watched most of it. And no, you are wrong with your assumption that "for every witness who has been discredited (...) there have been literally hundreds whose testimony stands", flat out wrong. E.g. no connection to Srebrenica was proven, to the contrary, there was evidence (from an impartial German journalist) that Mladic personally told him that Milosevic was not informed about the attack beforehand and there is various testimony to the effect that after the attack and the killings he was furious, just to cite one example. OTOH, various links and connections between KLA and NATO were proven by the defense (they have always been obvious anyway).

I know that some rightwingers in the US used the issue for grandstanding and bluster, support for the Bosnians and the KLA was bipartisan, however, notwithstanding the fact that they were also actively supported by Arab mudjaheddin, including a certain infamous one who came for a visit from Afghanistan. Those who did not buy into the demonization of Milosevic are numerous:

ad 1. Serbian nationalists - true
1b. Serbian socialists
1c. Many Greeks, Macedonians
ad 2. Israel - true (sent weapons)
ad 3. As I said, Clinton haters of all stripes certainly were grateful for the occasion
ad 4. The anti-American meme is bullshit, we were more concerned with German interference and responsiblity.

in addition:
5. People who had personal connections (and there are many in Europe) to and some knowledge of the region. You must not forget (it is very convenient, though, to do this today) that the demonization included ALL Serbs, they were portrayed as some sort of new Nazis, which is total nonsense
6. traditional leftists (including large parts of the SPD in Germany, e.g. the former chairman Lafontaine)
7. Anti-war activists and organisations (almost all, but not exclusively, leftists of various stripes, concentration camp survivors among them)
8. A small handful of "true" conservatives (e. g. members of the OSCE mission in Kosovo, because they trusted their eyes and did not listen to war propaganda)


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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
73. Duh
That's why I put "jury" in quotes. Because there isn't one. But I guess you might honestly not know that "the jury is still out" is an expression here to mean that it's too early for conclusions to be drawn.

But you're wrong about most of the rest of your post. I dont' have time to answer them all, but rest assured that support for the Kosovo War was NOT truly bi-partisan here. The majority of Republicans in our Congress voted against it. Only those who are fairly moderate voted for it. Almost all Democrats did.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. truly bipartisan
as with the Iraq war resolution and compliance with the PATRIOT Act? Probably not.

Bob Dole was collecting money for the Albanians, and the other creep, whatshisname McCain was calling for groundtroops.

Maybe the need for bases in Kosovo, the pipeline and the mines were not important enough to garner unanimity. Or the opposition was well calculated not to interfere in earnest while scoring a few points with paleoconservatives.

I had some discussions with a so-called libertarian at the time and we agreed on almost everything with respect to Yugoslavia, except that she thought the failure of the Hague Tribunal was proof that any international court could not possibly work - the real powers would always get off the hook - whereas I held that this was exactly why a real, independent court was needed.

The jury was never out in The Hague, the real, big gun criminals will not be prosecuted.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Your talking point is quite easy to debunk
Clark has testified that in meetings with Milosevic prior to the NATO bombing, he, Milosevic, confided to Clark that he told his General not to do this massacre. That was foreknowledge. Further it was Milosevic who controlled the financing of the Serbian forces. You could have watched Clark talk abot this tonight on The Newshour.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. if you know, pray tell
Edited on Mon Mar-13-06 08:00 PM by reorg
why Clark's testimony in The Hague was private? What is so secret about it? What don't they want the world to know?

As to "foreknowledge" about possible massacres, yes it was feared by many that the Bosnian Serbs would seek revenge. I believe there is still an intercepted phone call from Milosevic to Karadzic at domovina.net where he is almost begging the Bosnian Serb to keep his militia under control.

Diana Johnstone, who speaks the language and has lived in the region has written a lot about Srebrenica.


>> ...

The general public did not know that Srebrenica, described as a "safe area", was not in fact simply a haven for refugees, but also a Muslim military base. The general public did not know what Lord Owen knew and recounted in his important 1995 book, Balkan Odyssey (p.143), namely that in April 1993, Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic was extremely anxious to prevent Bosnian Serb forces from overrunning Srebrenica. "On 16 April I spoke on the telephone to President Milosevic about my anxiety that, despite repeated assurances from Dr. Karadzic that he had no intention of taking Srebrenica, the Bosnian Serb army was now proceeding to do just that. The pocket was greatly reduced in size. I had rarely heard Milosevic so exasperated, but also so worried: he feared that if the Bosnian Serb troops entered Srebrenica there would be a bloodbath because of the tremendous bad blood that existed between the two armies. The Bosnian Serbs held the young Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, responsible for a massacre near Bratunac in December 1992 in which many Serb civilians had been killed. Milosevic believed it would be a great mistake for the Bosnian Serbs to take Srebrenica and promised to tell Karadzic so."

Thus, many months before the July 1995 "Srebrenica massacre", both Izetbegovic and Milosevic were aware of the possibility and of its potential impact-favorable to the Muslim cause, and disastrous for the Serbs.

... <<

http://www.counterpunch.org/johnstone10122005.html

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Milosevic drove the Nationalistic fever
Edited on Mon Mar-13-06 08:15 PM by Jim4Wes
His lust for power is the root of all that happened.

He is the one who made it ok for the Serbs to carry out ethnic cleansing campaigns. Whether you can accept that or not is not my problem.

I'm not interested in accounts from counterpunch. I have looked at that poor rag a couple times and concluded it was a highly dubious source of information.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. nobody can stop you from keeping uninformed
So you don't know why Clark testified in private (but apparently sees fit to summarize on tv)?

Never mind what I "can accept" or not - how on earth did Milosevic "make it ok to carry out ethnic cleansing campaigns"? There were no "ethnic cleansing campaigns" in Serbia, where he was president. He wasn't even a nationalist, for chrissake.

It is quite unfortunate that you are prejudiced against Counterpunch, IMO one of the best sources for political commentary on the web.

I am sorry that you are not interested in information that may help you understand a little better.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I know why Clark testified in private....cause Bush didn't want Clark
to get any publicity during the primaries...doh!

PRESIDENT BUSH BANS PRESS COVERAGE OF WESLEY CLARK'S TESTIMONY AGAINST MILOSEVIC

In Unprecedented, Cowardly Move, President Bush Orders That Clark's Testimony Be Given In Private, Compromising The Transparency Of The Proceedings Simply Because He Doesn't Want Clark To Get Good PR
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v1i16censorship.htm


WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Daryn. General Clark, of course, the former NATO commander here in Europe, particularly during the bombing of the former Yugoslavia, gave crucial evidence today against the former Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic.

Clark, of course, is testifying under restrictions. We haven't seen the transcript of his testimony for security reasons at this pint. Just the same, he did talk to reporters afterwards. He gave us a hint of what he told the court. And he said that he testified that Slobodan Milosevic has had accountability and knowledge of the massacre of men and boys Srebrenica.

Now, that would be very damning for Slobodan Milosevic if in indeed General's Clark testimony. He also said he was able to testify as to Milosevic's intent both now and his state of mind then and now.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/16/lt.03.html


Wesley Clark to testify at The Hague — behind Bush-imposed secrecy

Wesley Clark will be testifying at a war crimes trial against former Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic in two weeks, but thanks to the Bush administration, he'll be doing so under heavy secrecy.

On Meet the Press last month, Clark explained that he had been called to testify in Milosevic's tribunal and will take a few days off the campaign trail to appear at The Hague.

Noting that U.S. officials had already approved his trip, Clark said his testimony would focus on his extensive contact with Milosevic, which spanned several years.

" is about what Milosevic knew, when he knew it, what his intent was, how he viewed situations, how he operated," Clark said. "There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that I bring, plus maybe more than that in some cases."

But, as several Carpetbagger sources have mentioned to me this morning (thanks to all), Clark will be testifying under very unusual conditions, thanks to a White House that is obviouslty afraid of Clark's political prospects.

As the Chicago Tribune reported today, "The Bush administration has imposed heavy secrecy and censorship measures on the testimony of retired Gen. Wesley Clark…when he takes the stand later this month at the war crimes trial of Slobodan Milosevic."


"At the insistence of State Department's legal office, the courtroom's public gallery will be cleared when Clark is called to testify Dec. 15-16 in The Hague," the Tribune explained. "Cameras that normally broadcast the proceedings on closed-circuit television and the Internet will be blacked out."
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/907.html


Let me know if you need to be further informed on this..... :hi:





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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. Counterpunch vs Chris Hedges....
Wait...wait...don't tell me! Chris Hedges is a neo-liberal pig at the trough as well. Of course only in your dreams. But here's what Hedges, who was actually there, had to say:

War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning

Chris Hedges

On a chilly, rainy day in March 1998 I was in a small Albanian village in Kosova, twenty-five miles west of the provincial capital of Pristina. I was waiting with a few thousand Kosavar Albanian mourners for a red Mercedes truck to rumble down the dirt road and unload a cargo of fourteen bodies. A group of distraught women, seated on wooden planks set up on concrete blocks, was in the dirt yard.

When the truck pulled into the yard I climbed into the back. Before each corpse, wrapped in bloodstained blankets and rugs, was lifted out for washing and burial I checked ot see if the body was mutilated. I pulled back the cloth to uncover the faces. The gouged-out eyes, the shattered skulls, the gaping rows of broken teeth, and sinewy strands of flayed flesh greeted me. When I could not see clearly in the fading light I flicked on my Maglite. I jotted each disfigurement in my notebook.

The bodies were passed silently out of the truck...In the hasty effort to confer some dignity on the dead family members, often weeping, tried to wash away the bloodstains from the faces. Most could not do it and had to helped away.

It was not an uncommon event for me. I have seen many such dead. Several weeks later it would be worse. I would be in a warehouse with fifty- one bodies, including children, even infants, women, and elderly from the town of Prekaz. I had spent time with many of them. I stared into their lifeless faces. I was again in the twilight zone of I could not wholly believe what I saw in front of me. (74-5)


We did not go to Rwanda because of the politically driven fear of Bill Clinton. He was still reeling from Somalia, and refused to summons the political will. Sure it's great to pontificate about "never again" as long as you don't have to act on your convictions.

So here are the choices as you present them: the world can do nothing and let a full-scale genocide occur and the counterpunch devotees can point their pristine fingers; or we can stop genocide and the same holier-than-thou crew can...point their fingers. Prehaps it is best to listen to voices of greater sanity and do what is right. Standing up to protect a guilty Milosevic does not qualify as an act of love, only a perverse wish to see the next Hotel Rwanda. Why else defend Milosevic's "Operation Horseshoe" or his forced march of 450,000 Kosovar Albanians, who by the way, had to turn their passports in before crossing the border. After all, Milosevic had set the number of allowed muslims in the country at 60,000.

I'll take Hedges and the other writers who depend not on ideologically hocus-pocus, but their own eyes and brain.

Signed,

Danica (a Serb American)

ps I've spent plenty of time reading the accounts from the Hague. Rape as a weapon may appeal to you but I'll pass.

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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #37
59. i'm not sure
what your Hedges quote is supposed to show. This was in the midst of a bloody civil war, when the KLA (according to Hedges a mostly boorish ragtag of nationalists, financed mostly by criminal activities, who agreed on barely anything but throwing the Serb population out of what they claimed was their land) controlled most of Kosovo. I have no doubt that war crimes were committed and atrocities occured.

The problem with "the world" is that we mostly are not aware of what is going on anywhere outside of our homes, and actions are finally taken after we are carefully "educated" by a bunch of hypocrites whose business is the selling of news.

If you have trust in the moral authority of Hedges, be my guest. I have found quite a few interesting tidbits in his reporting, too, but also read other sources and prefer to think for myself.

Rape as a weapon? Why would this appeal to me? I'm not a cold-blooded war technician like Donald Rumsfeld, or one of his goons. Nor am I a fanatic. You may recall that a few years ago in Ahmedabad thousands of Muslims were burned alive and many women were raped before being burned. Sometimes such terrible things happen when fanatical hatred takes over, mostly in the context of struggles over resources, naturally, and after such hatred is whipped up by calculating ideologues. Please show me a SINGLE speech from Milosevich where he encourages nationalist hatred.

The dismantling of Yugoslavia was not a naturally occuring process. It was actively supported by interested outside parties, mostly Germany and the US. From these countries originated most of the direct (weapons, training, promises) and indirect (media) support for the separatist movements.

And as to the so-called horseshoe plan - it simply didn't exist. Cheap, discredited war propaganda. The Kosovo Albanians who were thrown out AFTER the bombing began were indeed a major risk for the Serb defense and this is why the border regions were cleared. If you have read or watched the Milosevic trial coverage, you have certainly seen lots of evidence in support of the fact that most of the Kosovo Albanians were fanatical KLA supporters. What I have not seen, BTW, in all the reporting and documentation, is a substantial reason for the nationalist impetus of the Kosovo Albanians - other than the repression that set in AFTER they had harassed Serbs in Kosovo throughout the eighties in order to drive them out and AFTER they disrupted the normal functioning of the state with so-called parallel institutions.












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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. It is not hard to understand. Most people want home rule.
And rule by people much like themselves. It is the cause of many civil wars. You state:

"What I have not seen, BTW, in all the reporting and documentation, is a substantial reason for the nationalist impetus of the Kosovo Albanians - other than the repression that set in AFTER they had harassed Serbs in Kosovo throughout the eighties in order to drive them out and AFTER they disrupted the normal functioning of the state with so-called parallel institutions."

There is a long history to Kosovo, and in the course of that history Kosovo went from being at the heart of the Serbian empire in the 12th century to having an overwhelmingly Albanian muslim population at the close of the 20th century. Yes there was an independence movement in Kosovo prior to Milosevich coming to power. There is an independence movement in Puerto Rico today, and some of it's followers have used violence to further their political goals. Probably if the United States suddenly and unilaterally revoked Puerto Rico's special Commonwealth status that movement would grow far stronger and more violent. When Milosevich came to power in Yugoslavia he revoked the autonomous status that Tito had granted Kosovo,and tensions inside of Kosovo escalated dramatically.

Here is a BBC link to a Kosovo time line that I leave for readers less familiar with Kosovo history than yourself. Note that it mentions the indictment of a Kosovo Albanian leader face UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague for war crimes also, in March 2005. You can say this shows that it was not only Serbs who committed war crimes in Kosovo, and this is true, but this is the same court after all that indicted Milosevich for crimes against humanity. I think it helps establish the impartiality of that court which I know that you reject:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/3550401.stm

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. One more link
Since I bookmarked this thread I wnated to include this link to a US State Department overview of the Balkans. Actually a pretty thorough look at the history of the region.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5388.htm
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Because the Bushies ordered it private - they can do that.
Besides, I don't trust anything from counterpunch.

Can you find a source that doesn't worship murderers like Milosevic?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Welcome to DU...
:hi:
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Wouldn't a completed trial have been better for the world?
Who else is on your "list"?
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. junior is doing the same thing as Milosevic did in protecting
his country from terrorism.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. how did WC know that Slobo would be convicted?
it must be very empowering to have fore-knowledge
of events thats never happen
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Maybe cause he testified at his trial.....and because he was there....
on the ground; and because the trial has been going on for 5 years; and because General Clark testified at the trial.

If anyone knows of Milosovic's guilt, it would be General Wes Clark.

And yes....Wes Clark has shown an extraordinary gift for Fore-Knowledge, which is why he maintained that we should'nt have gone into Iraq.....

As our late Sen. Paul Wellstone said on the floor of the senate....
http://www.wellstone.org/news/news_detail.aspx?itemID=2...
"...as General Wes Clark, former Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe has recently noted, a premature go-it-alone invasion of Iraq "would super-charge recruiting for Al Qaida." "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1879608

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1912872

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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. I wonder where you're from...
your slip is showing. Still pissed off that Milosevic wasn't "successful"?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
33. he probably didn't know for sure 100 percent
but many people who saw the evidence of what he had done felt he would be convicted.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. General Clark brings up some good points...
about Milosevic's sudden death complicating Serbia's path to rejoin the western community of nations.

I'm only sorry Slobo didn't live long enough to be held accountable in a court of law.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-13-06 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. I was wondering what Wes would have to say about this...
Thanks for posting it.

TC
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
35. What about the Nazis Tudjman and Itzbegovic, Wes?
Just as viciously nationalistic as Milosevic, but (unlike Milosevic) willing to sell the family farm to international corporations. Anybody who condemns the demonization of Saddam Hussein as some sort of unique monster to justify what the US elite happens to feel like doing to other countries, but falls for exactly the same bullshit about Milosevic is a damned fool. Or a deliberate apologist for economic and military imperialism.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Clinton got involved in Kosovo because of genocide
and to stop what was going on .

Bush didn't go into Iraq because Saddam is a bad man. he just used it as an excuse to go in and exploit the area for himself. Clinton did not do that with Kosovo.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. So, why did he promote genocide in the Krajina?
Identical situation to Kosovo. Besides which, people in Kosovo who actually died from it did so AFTER and BECAUSE OF the NATO bombing campaign.

BTW, the Kosovo Albanians have essentially finished up the WW II Nazi project of wiping out Serbs, Rom, and Jews from their province under the watchful eye of NATO.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Pluea-ze......
pay attention!

The Bosnia War occured prior to the Kosovo War. U.S. Troups, via NATO were more involved in the latter than the former. The Bosnian Conflict(a civil war), were approximately 200,000 were killed, was ended via the Dayton Peace Accords of 1995. Holbrook and Wes Clark were instrumental in writing up the treaty.
=======
A Short History:
The Bosnian-Herzegovinian declaration of sovereignty in October of 1991, was followed by a referendum for independence from Yugoslavia in February 1992 boycotted by the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Serbs. Serbia and Bosnian Serbs responded shortly thereafter with armed attacks on Bosnian-Herzegovinian Croats and Bosniaks aimed at partitioning the republic along ethnic lines and joining Serb-held areas. The UNPROFOR (UN Protection Force) was deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina in mid-1992. 1992 and 1993 saw the greatest bloodshed in Europe after 1945. In March 1994, Bosniaks and Croats reduced the number of warring factions from three to two by signing an agreement creating a joint Bosniak-Croat Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Each nation reported many casualties in the three sided conflict, in which the Bosniaks reported the highest number of deaths and casualties. However, the only case officially ruled by the U.N. Hague tribunal as genocide was the Srebrenica massacre of 1995. At the end of the war more than 200,000 had been killed and more than 2 million people fled their homes (including over 1 million to neighboring nations and the west).

On November 21, 1995, in Dayton, Ohio, presidents of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Alija Izetbegoviæ), Croatia (Franjo Tuðman), and Serbia (Slobodan Miloševiæ) signed a peace agreement that brought a halt to the three years of war in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (the final agreement was signed in Paris on 14 December 1995). The Dayton Agreement succeeded in ending the bloodshed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it institutionalized the division between the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Muslim and Croat entity - Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina (51% of the territory), and the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Serb entity - Republika Srpska (49%).

The enforcement of the implementation of the Dayton Agreement was through a UN mandate using various multinational forces: NATO-led IFOR (Implementation Force), which transitioned to the SFOR (Stabilisation Force) the next year, which in turn transitioned to the EU-led EUFOR at end of 2004. The civil administration of Bosnia and Herzegovina is headed by the High Representative of the international community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia

=========
The Kosovo Conflict was indeed related to Bosnia, but started in 1998. By April of 1999, the U.S. working under NATO intervened in what appeared to be a repeat action of Muslim Ethnic Cleansing. The fact that NATO intervened is one reason cited that "only" 7,000-10,000 were killed there instead of the 200,000 in Bosnia.
============

Yes, the Senate Republicans voted in it's majority AGAINST the U.S.'s participation in taking any action in Kossovo. Republican Senators voted 38-16 AGAINST Kosovo action at the time that the vote took place for U.S. to participate with NATO. However, the Democrats in the Majority voted for it.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3805/is_200107/ai_n8985421/pg_4

Most Republicans except for the moderates were against it. Kissinger was one of the Frontman spreading the lies of "wag the dog"
Kissinger exposes lies behind US-NATO war
By Barry Grey
28 May 1999
In the course of a newly published article criticizing the Clinton administration's war policy in Yugoslavia, Henry Kissinger is obliged to expose some of the basic claims underlying the pro-war propaganda of the US and NATO. Appearing first on the May 24 Internet edition of Newsweek magazine, the article, entitled "New World Disorder," carries the following blunt summary:

"The ill-considered war in Kosovo has undermined relations with China and Russia and put NATO at risk."

Kissinger portrays the Clinton administration's policy in the Balkans as a combination of political opportunism, incompetence and recklessness. He is particularly concerned with the long-term consequences for US relations with Russia and China, as well as the alliance between the US and the European powers.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/Kosovo/Kosovo-controversies59.htm
==============
Where is that Republican commitment today? Until Mr. Clinton forced their hand, many Republicans wanted to let our allies do all the fighting and take all the risks. They seemed to want America to lead -- from behind. If the United States had actually followed this path, the damage to the NATO alliance would have been irreparable. If the United States won't take on a bully like Mr. Milosevic, why should anyone in Europe believe that Washington will be bolder in meeting even more dangerous threats to European security in the future?
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=271
===============
Kosovo was what the Late Pope John Paul called a "noble" war....
a war against Genocide. As Samantha Powers, the Pulitzer Award winning author on the subject of Genocide put it...I spent about seven years looking into American responses to genocide in the twentieth century, and discovered something that may not surprise you but that did surprise me, which was that until 1999 the United States had actually never intervened to prevent genocide in our nation's history. Successive American presidents had done an absolutely terrific job pledging never again, and remembering the holocaust, but ultimately when genocide confronted them, they weighed the costs and the benefits of intervention, and they decided that the risks of getting involved were actually far greater than the other non-costs from the standpoint of the American public, of staying uninvolved or being bystanders. That changed in the mid-1990s, and it changed in large measure because General Clark rose through the ranks of the American military.

The mark of leadership is not to standup when everybody is standing, but rather to actually stand up when no one else is standing. And it was Pentagon reluctance to intervene in Rwanda, and in Bosnia, that actually made it much, much easier for political leaders to turn away. When the estimates started coming out of the Pentagon that were much more constructive, and proactive, and creative, one of the many deterrents to intervention melted away.

http://www.kiddingonthesquare.com/2004/01/index.html
==========
Barbara Boxer's statement to Condi....during Condi's SOS senate confirmation hearings, this year....in contrasting the Clinton led Bosnian/Kosovo conflict and the Bush led Iraqi Invasion:
"My last point has to do with Milosevic. You said you can't compare the two dictators. You know, you're right; no two tyrants are alike. But the fact is Milosevic started wars that killed 200,000 in Bosnia, 10,000 in Kosovo and thousands in Croatia, and he was nabbed and he's out without an American dying for it. That's the facts. Now I suppose we could have gone in there and people could have killed to get him. The fact is not one person wants either of those two to see the light of day, again. And in one case we did it without Americans dying. In the other case, we did it with Americans dying. And I think if you ask the average American, you know, was Saddam worth one life, one American life, they'd say, "No, he's the bottom of the barrel." And the fact is we've lost so many lives over it. So if we do get a little testy on the point, and I admit to be so, it's because it continues day in and day out, and 25 percent of the dead are from California.
We cannot forget. We cannot forget that. Thank you. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/19/politics/19cnd-rtex.h ...

==========
The Magistrate (1000+ posts) Fri Jan-28-05 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #150

153. If Anyone Is Desirous Of Facts In This Matter

The Unhappy History of Kosovo

One: Origin of the Quarrel

The clash in Kossovo of Arnaut and Vascian, as the peoples known to we moderns as Albanian and Serb were oft known in Ottoman days, differs from the usual run of Balkan bloodletting; it describes a real ethnic difference. Serb, Croat, Slovene, Montenegrin; all are Slavs, divided due to institutions only. Albanians remain in some proportion survivals of the old Dalmatian and Illyric peoples of Roman days, taken to craggy peaks for refuge from a tide of Slavic invasion commencing with the sixth century.

Medieval Albanian Catholicism offered further differentiation from Orthodox Serbs. The northeastern extension of the Albanian remnant, and the southern marches of the Serb, coincided roughly in modern Kossovo. Here the Serb Czar and Orthodox Patriarchite were able to exert authority the more atomized Albanian polity could not. After the death of the Albanian chieftain Skanderberg, and the Ottoman routing of Venice from the latter’s Adriatic lodgments, late in the fifteenth century, Albanians generally converted to Islam.

In Kossovo, this established local Albanians’ dominance over the Orthodox Serb peasantry, as the Ottoman gave landlord’s tenure only to Moslems. More enterprising or desperate Serbs migrated north; Albanians of similar motivation replaced them from the west. The locale remained poorly ordered, and a frequent theater for rebellion and consequent Ottoman suppression.

The catastrophe suffered by the Ottoman besieging Vienna in 1683 led to the swift seizure of Bosnia, Albania, and Serbia by Austrian and Bavarian Catholic armies. An Austrian force ventured into Kossovo in 1689, setting Albanian and Serb alike both to rebellion against the Ottoman and to battle against one another. The Austrians soon were routed at Nish. In Kossovo, the Ottoman killed every inhabitant they could lay hands on for days. Serbs fled north in great number, Albanians fled west.

With Ottoman authority reasserted, it was mostly Albanians who returned. These soon outnumbered the Serb survivors and progeny. Erection of an autonomous Serbia early in the nineteenth century enticed Kossovo Serbs to migrate north and acquire a freehold farm there. The Russo-Turkish War of 1877, which saw near collapse for the tottering Ottoman, was preceded and followed by Serb attacks.

These fell on Ottoman garrisons and Moslem inhabitants in the south of modern Serbia, culminating in the 1878 sack and firing of the Albanian quarter in Nish. Islamic refugees fled into Kossovo; Christians fled into Serbia for shelter from ensuing pogrom, and advancing Ottoman soldiery. The peace imposed by the Treaty of Berlin left Kossovo under unrestricted Ottoman rule.


Two: To the Yugoslav Monarchy

Albanian agitation for autonomy on modern terms within the declining Ottoman imperium began at Prizren in Kossovo, and at Istanbul. The Serb remnant in Kossovo were subjected to a wretched existence, without recourse from predation by landlord or hostile brigand. Early in 1912, declaration of an Albanian state ignited a successful rebellion in Kossovo against the Ottoman. In the Balkan War, pitting Slav and Greek against the Ottoman that autumn, Serbian armies struck south through Kossovo with great massacre against the Albanian populace. The Treaty of Bucharest in 1913 confirmed Serbia in possession of Kossovo.

During World War One, Austria-Hungary put Serbia’s army to flight in 1915. Albanians in Kossovo rose against the retreating Serbs with utmost savagery. The Serb soldiers replied in kind to fight their way through to the Adriatic, there embarking on French ships to tremendous Allied acclaim. Serb armies re-entered Kossovo from the south by the 1918 Armistice, and were bitterly resisted by Albanian rebels. The new Yugoslav monarchy with its Serb king did not succeed in breaking organized resistance till 1924 in Kossovo. Brigandage, and brutal reprisal, remained endemic to the locale.

The Serb monarchy of Yugoslavia superintended a determined effort to secure its rule in Kossovo. Land was stolen from Albanians as “undocumented,” and made available for Serbs who would venture south to settle on it. Schools teaching in Albanian, originally encouraged in the hope they would keep Albanians backward, proved hotbeds of secessionist agitation, and were suppressed. In 1937, the monarchy entertained proposals by a leading Serb intellectual, the assassin turned historian Vaso Cubrilovic of Belgrade University, that all Albanians be forcibly expelled from Kossovo.

Near the start of World War Two, Fascist Italy seized Albania. Nazi Germany seized Yugoslavia in 1941. The mines in northern Kossovo, and most Kossovo Serbs therefore, were retained under Nazi occupation; the remainder of Kossovo was awarded to Italian Albania. Serbs in Italian Kossovo, mostly recent settlers, were pitilessly persecuted by Albanians, even against occasional Italian opposition. The S. S. security division “Skanderberg” was largely recruited among Kossovo Albanians.


Three: The Tito Era

After Italy capitulated in 1943, Tito, the Communist partisan leader, declared Kossovo would be allowed self-determination if Communists won. In 1944, his partisans succeeded in fighting their way into the place, with some local Albanian support at last. Royalist Chetnik partisans violently opposed any idea of Kossovo secession, winning Tito even more support in that locale.

Tito, however, reneged on that promised self-determination, annexing Kossovo anew to Serbia as an “Autonomous district” within his new Yugoslavia. The Albanian Communist leader, Enver Hoxha, was in no position to contest the matter, amid talk under Stalin of a Balkan Federation to include Albania itself. Tito’s break in 1948 with Stalin ended any real hope for Hoxha he could fold Kossovo into his hoped for Greater Albania.

Kossovo’s populace was then about three-fifths Albanian and one-quarter Serb, with the remainder including Moslem Slavs, Catholic Montenegrins, Turks, and Gypsies. Tito saw that Communist party and police supervisors in Kossovo were Serbs. These energetically hunted up the least hint of Albanian secessionists, harvesting batches of them for show trials in 1956 (coincident with the Hungarian revolt), and again in 1964.

Tito purged his Serb Interior Minister in 1966, for opposition to economic decentralization. Albanian Communists replaced Serbs in Party and police supervisory posts in Kossovo. In the “Prague Spring” of ’68, Kossovo Albanian students demonstrated for national status in Yugoslavia, and an Albanian language university. After many arrests, Tito granted the university in 1970. Albanian language textbooks could only be got in Enver Hoxha’s Albania, which opened a connection to the new Kossovo school in Pristina for his enterprising “special service” agents.

A new Yugoslav constitution in 1974 gave autonomous Serbian Kossovo effective national status, with a representative on the Yugoslav collective presidency. Albanian Kossovo police and party personnel suppressed radical cliques, inspired to “Enverism” (as secession became called) by Hoxha’s agents. Some of these cliques, formed about 1978, included young men who would later become leading lights of the present-day Kossovo Liberation Army.

Tito died in 1980. In spring of 1981, Kossovo Albanian students at Pristina University began demonstrations demanding independence, even fusion with Hoxha’s Albania, to applause from spectators. Yugoslav Interior Ministry troops arrived, and broke the demonstrations, shooting and beating scores to death. Kossovo Albanian party and police officials sustained the crack-down, loyally denouncing “Enverist” radicals, and arresting and beating hundreds suspected of such leanings.

Radical secessionist leaders fled to sanctuaries in Western Europe. Several, meeting near Stuttgart in 1982 to form a popular front, were ambushed and shot dead by unknown assailants. Surviving radicals concluded the bullets came from Serbs in the Yugoslav Interior Ministry, and swore blood vengeance. Under the name of Popular Movement for the Kossovo Republic, a handful of such trained in Albania, and attempted a campaign of gun-battles and bombs against Kossovo and Yugoslav police.


Four: Rise of Milosevic

These largely would-be assassins had no material effect, but a profound moral one. Any crime against serbs in Kossovo was in serbia reported as secessionist terror, and crimes against Serbs in Kossovo, particularly against property of isolated farms and Orthodox sites, occurred with increasing frequency. The Serb Orthodox Patriarchite was ranged alongside the Serb Academy of Sciebces in protest of this, with the latter, in 1985, calling the current situation genocide against against Serbs in Kossovo.

At the start of 1986, the banker Slobodan Milosevic ascended to leadership of the Serb Communist Party. Belligerence in favor of Serbs dwelling outside Serbia’s boundaries, or in the autonomous districts of Vojvodina and Kossovo, offered a ready lever for political power. Kossovo Serbs were organizing militias with assistance from Serb Interior Ministry police; Hoxha’s death had not altered Albania’s support of “Enverism” in Kossovo.

Early in 1987, Milosevic arrived in Pristina’s suburbs for a meeting with Kossovo Serb leaders. A large crowd of Kossovo Serbs rioted before him against the largely Albanian Kossovo police. It was not chance; four days before, Milosevic had met with the riot’s instigators, and a schedule had been fixed for the outbreak.

Widely broadcast film of the incident established Milosevic as champion of distressed Serbs. Later that year, Milosevic used this popularity to force Serbia’s president from office. In the summer of 1988, Milosevic’s Serb Communist Party organized a campaign of Kossovo Remembrance rallies throughout Serbia proper, claiming an average attendance of half a million at each. In November, Milosevic as Party chief dismissed the Albanians in Communist Party leadership in Kossovo, and promulgated constitutional changes effectively stripping Kossovo of its autonomous status.

Albanian Communist leadership in Kossovo mobilized sizable demonstrations and hunger strikes in protest early in 1989. These were broken with loss of life by Yugoslav Interior Ministry troops, who seized the arms of both Kossovo’s national guard and police. Closely surrounded by tanks, the Kossovo Assembly voted itself out of effective existence on March 23.

Milosevic now accepted the Presidency of Serbia. Continuing Albanian demonstrations in Kossovo were broken by Serb and Yugoslav soldiers and police; hundreds of arrests were accompanied by torture. At the end of the year, Albanian intellectuals and some Communist leaders collected to form the Democratic League for Kossovo. The police terror stilled the demonstrations early in 1990.

Milosevic ratified Serb Parliament decrees forbidding Albanians to buy land from Serbs in Kossovo, and removing Albanians from civil service, including hospitals, schools, and the police. The latter quickly became overwhelmingly Serb. The Albanian membership of the Communist Party in Kossovo took up membership in the League for Democratic Kossovo.


Five: The Kossovo Resistance

This L. D. K. was led by the writer Ibrahim Rugova. He inspired Kossovo Albanians to a program of passive resistance to Serb authority. A “shadow state” emerged, quartered in private dwellings, and with a government in exile operating in Germany. Rugova’s “shadow state” held elections, administered Albanian language schooling, even collected taxes. These applied equally to Kossovo Albanians dwelling abroad; most were guest-worker laborers in Europe, but some were prosperous businessmen, or smugglers of stolen cars and narcotics and prostitutes.

The handful of violent radicals constituting the Popular Movement for the Kossovo Republic (P. M. K. R.) were denounced by Rugova as stooges of the Serb police, and he was widely believed by Kossovo Albanians when he did. The radicals’ sporadic gunshots and arsons each served to signal a fresh campaign of interrogations and beatings by Serb police, directed against the nonviolent “shadow state” organizers.

With Yugoslav and Serb armed forces devoted to war in Croatia and Bosnia, Milosevic was content to leave Kossovo at this status quo. On Serb victory in Croatia, one of the leading Serb killers, an Interior Ministry employee known as Arkan, moved to Pristina with scores of armed followers. “Enverist” radicals of the P. M. K. R. secretly convened in Drenica (where resistance to the old Yugoslav monarchy had persisted into 1924), and there voted themselves the armed force of the Kossovo Republic. Albania’s newly elected government maintained cordial relations both with these radicals, and Rugova’s pacific Kossovo government in exile, now established near Bonn.

Kossovo Albanian boycott of official Serb elections in December 1993 gave Milosevic a resounding victory over his rival for the presidency, the Serb-American businessman Panic, and allowed the killer Arkan to win election to a parliament seat. The “Enverist” radicals were split into a Marxist faction, the National Movement for the Liberation of Kossovo, and a Nationalist faction, the Kossovo Liberation Army. The latter had a better footing abroad, where the pacific Rugova’s government in exile at Bonn was beginning to explore establishing its own armed force. Albania continued to assist by giving military training to dozens of radicals, and allowing transit through its borders.

The bloody summer of 1995 saw Serb massacre of Bosnian Moslems, Croat expulsion of Serbs, and NATO bombing of Serb forces in Bosnia. The Dayton Accords confirmed Serb gains in Bosnia, and recognized the rump Yugoslav Federation Milosevic dominated, from his seat for Serbia in its collective presidency. The pacific Rugova used his control of Albanian language media in Kossovo to maintain popular commitment to passive resistance, while the fledgling KLA demanded Serb departure from Kossovo, and launched a new campaign of sporadic shootings and bombings.

Serbia was greatly unsettled by the influx of refugees from Krajina and Slavonia. In Yugoslav elections on May 31, 1996, the Montenegrin presidency went to an opponent of Milosevic, and in Serbia, opposition parties won local posts in many cities. Milosevic refused to allow victorious opponents to take office in Serbia. He allowed three months of demonstrations, then bought off his principal Serb opponent by offering him a cabinet post. The demonstrations were mopped up by brutal police attack, and opposition figures allowed to take local office found their function superseded by various national agencies. The Vatican brokered an agreement Milosevic signed to allow Albanian language schools official existence in Kossovo, but he took no steps to implement it.


Six: Taking Up the Gun

In Bonn, the leading functionary of Rugova’s government in exile, Bujar Bukoshi, rejected passive resistance, and turned the radio transmitter he controlled to broadcasts supporting the KLA. Early in 1997, Albania’s banks were revealed as Ponzi swindles. Mobs looted government facilities, including military arsenals, and swiftly reduced the land to anarchic chaos, in which a Kalshnikov rifle could be had for a five dollar bill.

Bukoshi’s embryonic forces, consisting of a few hundred exiled policemen and soldiers,established themselves in Albania as the Armed Forces of the Kossovo Republic (F. A. R. K.), in competition with the KLA. Albanian students organized demonstrations against Milosevic’s refusal to implement the Vatican agreement on schooling, ignoring orders to desist from Rugova. Serb police crushed the demonstrations with extraordinary brutality.

KLA attacks, which by the Serb government’s claims had been occurring roughly once a week, and claimed ten Serb lives since 1995, began to take place almost daily at the start of 1998. In the old rebel district of Drenica, near the village of Likosane just before noon on February 28, a gunfight broke out between KLA men and a Serb police patrol. Once it was over, Serb police massacred the men of a wealthy Albanian clan considered leaders of the hamlet. Five days later, Serb police surrounded the family compound of a KLA leader and shelled it for hours, then went into the ruins and murdered women, children, and wounded, to a total of 58, including the KLA man, Adem Jashari.

These murders turned Albanian village elders throughout Kossovo against Rugova’s passive resistance. They put hundreds of their young men at the disposal of the KLA. In Drenica, and near the Albanian border, armed partisan bands appeared in such strength the Serb police retired to establish encircling roadblocks. Western diplomats threatened Milosevic with dire consequences if the murders by his police were repeated. Milosevic agreed to begin implementing the Vatican schools agreement, and to meet with Ibrahim Rugova. Simultaneously, Milosevic admitted the ultra-nationalist Chetnik party into a coalition government with his Serbian Socialist Party, and loosed his Serb police once again into Drenica.

This campaign was conducted with the same degree of atrocity that characterized previous operations by Serb police. In one typical incident near Gorjne Obrinje, after fourteen Serb police were shot in a fire-fight, a group of fourteen Albanian women, children, and old men found hiding nearby were shot point-blank by Serb police. Some 200,000 Albanians fled their homes to avoid the fighting, some to southern Kossovo and some to Albania. President Clinton ordered a show of force by U. S. warplanes over Yugoslavia, and in October, his pressure secured an agreement by which Serb Interior Ministry troops were to vacate Kossovo, negotiations with Kossovo Albanian leaders were to begin in earnest, and a body of diplomatic observers would enter Kossovo to monitor events. During the course of negotiating this agreement, Milosevic told a U. S. general that the way to bring peace to Drenica was to “kill them all.”

The monitored cease-fire brought many Kossovo Albanian refugees back to their homes. In Albania, the Kossovo government in exile’s small armed force was violently absorbed by the KLA; in Kossovo, KLA men began arresting and executing functionaries of Rugova’s “shadow state” as collaborators with Serbia. They also murdered about a dozen Serb civilians, and a Serb village mayor. By the start of 1999, fire-fights of company and even battalion scale between KLA guerrillas and Serb police were once more occurring.

Near dawn on January 15, battle broke out between KLA guerrillas and Serb police near the town of Racak. After nine KLA men were killed the rest fled. During the afternoon Serb police entered the town, raped and murdered two women, and murdered forty-three unarmed men and boys. Serb Information Ministry spokesmen in Pristina next morning invited Western journalists to visit the scene of a “successful” fight against the KLA; when they reported what they saw, Milosevic declared the KLA had fabricated the incident, and demanded the diplomatic observers quit Kossovo. The chief judge of the United Nations War Crimes Tribunal for Yugoslavia was denied entry to the country.

Seven: The NATO Intervention

NATO demanded the talks agreed to the previous October begin in February, and threatened military action to force compliance. The meeting at Rambouillet Chateau featured a severely fractured Albanian delegation; its principal factions (all of which hated one another) were Rugova’s adherents in the old LDK, old line Communist functionaries from that same umbrella group, and the KLA led by Hashim Thaci. After days of negotiation, Milosevic struck out about half the already settled agreement, substituting his initial demands, which the Albanians and NATO had already rejected, and forced collapse of the talks on March 18. Two days later, 40,000 Serb police and soldiers with 300 armored vehicles launched a fresh offensive into Drenica.

NATO air strikes commenced against Serbia on March 24. While these aimed at destroying Serb anti-aircraft defenses, Serb police and soldiers in Kossovo commenced a wholesale assault on the Albanians of Kossovo, aimed at driving them from the country by exemplary massacre. During the course of this campaign, roughly 10,000 persons, mostly young men, were murdered by Serb police and soldiers. Almost a million Albanians took to flight, either west to Albania, south into Macedonia, or into the mountains of Kossovo itself. Lightly armed KLA guerrillas could accomplish nothing against the Serb forces.

When Serb air defenses were disabled, NATO warplanes began attacks demolishing bridges, power stations, and the like in Serbia proper. With Serb police and soldiers forced to retire their heavy equipment to shelter in bunkers by NATO air bombardment in Kossovo, their murder squads became vulnerable to attack by Albanian partisans, many of whom were not, properly speaking, KLA, but village militia deployed by their clan elders. When Serb police and soldiers attempted to group together to overpower these guerrilla bands, the Serbs were savaged by NATO warplanes.

On June 3, Milosevic capitulated. Serb police and soldiers retired northward; NATO troops moved in. Kossovo Albanian refugees streamed back to their homes. Many set upon Serbs still remaining in Kossovo. NATO troops intervened to protect lives, but not property; even so, several dozen Serbs, many elderly, were killed. The overwhelming majority of Serbs resident in Kossovo fled north into Serbia, or into that small portion of northern Kossovo around the mines where they had long constituted the principal element of the populace.

A government for Kossovo, formed under NATO auspices, blended elements of the LDK and KLA, with the KLA’s Hashim Thaci emerging as Prime Minister, while Ibrahim Rugova, the nonviolent leader, found himself without power, or much prestige. The KLA has kept its word to disarm only poorly, and remains a police problem for NATO occupation troops. It has attempted to provoke guerrilla war in the adjoining areas of Macedonia which are largely populated by Albanians, but has had scant success there, either in baiting the Macedonian government into atrocious reaction to their activities, or in gaining wide support among Albanian people in those districts.

Postcript

This piece was written several years ago, which does not, of course, alter the body of facts it presents. In the interim, there does not seem to have been too much change. The remnant Serbian population of the district has been squeezed north and out, and the doing, while unwholesome, is about all that could be expected under the circumstances. There has been some friction between the K.L.A. and the NATO forces, but nothing approaching the scale of even the first stages of revolt against Milosevic.

The situation is, by and large, about as good as could be expected, given the history and recent trauma of the place.





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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. You aren't paying attention to what was IN the damned Dayton Accords!
They were an agreement about areas of ethnic influence in Bosnia. It was the same goddam apportionment of influence that Itzbegovic, under the orders of the US ambassador, refused to sign BEFORE THE CONFLICT. Capeesh? In other words,we could have had the Dayton agreement before anybody was killed.. What is it about that basic fact that you don't understand?

Also, did you fail to note the ORDER OF EVENTS here? NATO air strikes commenced against Serbia on March 24. While these aimed at destroying Serb anti-aircraft defenses, Serb police and soldiers in Kossovo commenced a wholesale assault on the Albanians of Kossovo, aimed at driving them from the country by exemplary massacre.

In other words, the Serbian assault on Kosovo was in retaliation for the bombing campaign. (I guess they figured if they couldn't stop the bombing, they could as least attempt to exact revenge on the people they blamed for it.) And if they had succeeded in driving the Albanians out, how would that have been different from the Croatian SUCCESS in driving out Serbs from the Krajina, which was successful only with the help of American mercenaries? Why is one instance of ethnic cleansing bad, and the other good? This was also avoidable, BTW. The Serbian parliament was 2/3 opposed to Milosevic at the time, and they offered a plan to put Kosovo under a UN mandate. That could have been achieved without the bombing, and without the Serbian revenge killing. Why wasn't it?

It isn't especially heroic to destroy worker-owned factories and leave those owned by foreigners alone, either.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. you don't really believe this stuff
come on. lol.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Certainly I do
It's about as obvious as the lies about Iraq. The Lisbon agreement was pretty much the same as the Dayton agreement, before all the bloodshed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alija_Izetbegovic

In January of 1992, Portuguese diplomat José Cutileiro drafted a plan that would turn Bosnia into a triethnic cantonal state. This would later become known as the Lisbon Agreement. Initially, all three sides signed up to the agreement, Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Bosnian Serbs and Mate Boban for the Bosnian Croats. Some two weeks later, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any type of division of Bosnia, supposedly encouraged by the then US ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann. This aim of a united Bosnia under the control of a central government in Sarajevo (seen as Muslim domination by Bosnian Serbs and Croats) would become both Izetbegović's war cry and aim.



Maybe you can explain better what the connection is between giving Serbia the choice of being bombed or selling off its state-owned industries has to do with ethnic cleansing.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Articles/Backing.asp#TheUSandNATOPreventedaPeaceAgreement

The key reason used to justify the NATO attack was that Milosevic refused to sign the Rambouillet "peace agreement." Actually, the chance to arrive at a peaceful settlement of the crisis during the talks in Rambouillet and Paris, last February and March, was thwarted. Even the short time initially allotted to "negotiate" this complex question showed a lack of seriousness. It becomes clear by perusing the text of the Rambouillet "agreement" (20) that the Contact Group, especially the U.S., did not want a peace agreement because no nation would have signed away its sovereignty as required in that document. It was accompanied by an ultimatum to sign or be bombed. This was deja vu for the Yugoslavs. In 1941, Hitler had ordered them to capitulate to his pact or be bombed. Then as now, they refused and were bombed. The Austro-Hungarian Empire, in its thrust toward World War I, inflicted a similar edict on Serbia, in 1914.

In Rambouillet, the delegation from the FRY, made up of representatives of every nationality of Serbia including ethnic Albanians, had agreed to the ten original political points decreed by the U.S. and the Contact Group, including autonomy for Kosovo. However they rejected the added demand for the deployment of NATO troops in the province, maintaining that if the parties agreed to the ten points, there would be no need for a heavily armed force in Kosovo. (21)

<snip>

President Clinton said in a speech delivered the day before his televised address to Americans about Kosovo: "If we're going to have a strong economic relationship that includes our ability to sell around the world, Europe has got to be a key....That's what this Kosovo thing is all about." (24)






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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. I can't even make sense of your ramblings n/t
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #46
62. If you can't be bothered to compare the Lisbon agreement--
--with the Dayton agreement, there isn't anything I can do to help you.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. and....
Here are some facts about Kosovo and what was happening there before the war:
The Kosovo War started in April of 1999, and it was based on an active plan of Genocide by Milosovic that was being carried via displacement, starvation, destruction, and yes, murder as well.
http://www.refugees.org/news/crisis/kosovo_u0998.htm
September 1998
In mid September, the situation in Kosovo is getting worse and the lives of thousands of innocent people are at risk. Serb forces continue to pound villages in northern and western Kosovo, effecting over half of the province's population in the last seven months. International aid agencies estimate that between 270,000 and 350,000 people have fled the fighting, as many as 250,000 remaining "internally displaced" inside Although their plight has generated worldwide recognition, international attempts to foster a diplomatic resolution to the conflict have failed to yield tangible results.
According to the Associated press, there is talk of possible, eventual Nato-supported military action ranging from the deployment of troops along the Albania- Kosovo border, to air strikes, to the deployment of ground troops, but humanitarian organizations remain skeptical that decisive U.S., European, or Nato-supported action will come soon. In the mean time, daily reports of horrendous human rights violations, massive destruction, and increasing bloodshed document the dire prognosis for Kosavars "contained" in the crisis by recently erected border controls.
On September 16, the New York Times reported that Serbian forces were "rounding up men and boys from ethnic Albanian villages and refugee camps in Kosovo, an act that US officials fear could be the prelude to their execution, as happened during the war in Bosnia." One week earlier, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, Julia Taft said at a press briefing, "Without a cease- fire, without a pull-back from this intrusive fighting, there will be 100,000 to 200,000 casualties looming in the months ahead."
Still, there are no decisive plans by the U.S., NATO, or European allies to avert the current and impending disasters with military action. The U.S. is "considering a variety of options" for getting emergency aid into Kosovo and continues to support diplomatic interventions and the preservation of Yugoslavian borders.
On September 16, Serbian and Albanian leaders reported heavy fighting in the area between the towns of Kosovska Mitrovica, Podujevo, and Vucitrn, north of the capital, Pristina. German Defense Minister, Volker Ruhe, stated that the West could resort to military action "within three to five weeks," if Milosevic fails to comply with an impending U.N. Security Council Resolution designed to put an end to the conflict. According to U.N. officials, the Resolution will not explicitly authorize military action.

On September 17, the government of Montenegro began implementing a plan to send refugees from Kosovo to Albania. Over 4,000 refugees being held in the village of Meteh, Montenegro, were transported in busses to the Albanian border point of Vermosh.

On September 18, Ethnic Albanian Leader, Ibrahim Rugova, gave his preliminary endorsement to a 3-year U.S.-backed "temporary" plan to restore local autonomy to Kosovo (stripped by Milosevic in 1989). According to the associated press, Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic "supported" the plan aimed at "normalizing the difficult and risky situation and halting the attacks and the use of force."

On September 21, amidst renewed Serbian attacks in the Drenica region, Ethnic Albanian leaders released their version of the U.S. supported "interim" peace proposal. Under the arrangement, Kosovo would become an "independent entity equal" to Serbia and Montenegro, with its own courts, police, and central bank. Its status as a province in Yugoslavia would be retained temporarily and negotiated in the future. Serbian officials rejected parts of the proposal but, reportedly, agreed to release their own version in the upcoming week.

On September 22, the New York Times reported that the "worsening plight" of refugees and internally displaced people from Kosovo was "increasing the possibility of NATO intervention." Britain and France urged the U.N. Security Council to finish drafting the Resolution designed to make (Serbian) "compliance mandatory," and raise the "specter of military force." According to U.S. officials, the pending resolution reflects an emerging consensus in favor of military action, however, "NATO allies have not yet reached an agreement on the use of force."

---------------
I believe that the Kosovo war was to STOP and PREVENT genocide.....So the fact that ONLY few thousand bodies were found in the 20% thus far of the suspected gravesites should make all of y'all feel really superior.

First, I want to say that the Right Wing is happy that you have determined that no Genocide was occuring in Kosovo....cause that is what they have been saying for quite some time.

Genocide By Mass Starvation;
NATO Strategy Makes Sense On One Level. But, In Humanitarian Terms, It's A Fatal Miscalculation.
Los Angeles Times
April 25, 1999, Sunday, Home Edition

http://www.refugees.org/news/op_eds/042599.htm
President Slobodan Milosevic's ability to stop and start massive refugee flows out of Kosovo is a chilling sign of his power and intent. From the Nazis to the Khmer Rouge, closed borders have been a serious sign that genocide is occurring. Genocide does not require gas chambers or even mass graves. A favored tactic is calculated mass starvation. That is what is happening in Kosovo.

Serb forces used food as a weapon during the war in Bosnia. They rarely engaged in battle, preferring to surround and besiege an area, subject it to shelling and cut it off from food.

Long before the bombing began, Milosevic began a systematic campaign to deplete Kosovo of its food resources. Beginning last summer, Serb forces:

restricted importation of basic items into Kosovo, including wheat, rice, cooking oil, sugar, salt, meat, milk, livestock, heating fuel and gasoline;

looted warehouses and burned fields, haystacks, winter food stocks and firewood.

killed livestock and often dropped their carcasses into wells to contaminate the water;

shot at ethnic Albanian farmers trying to harvest or plant;

Harassed, persecuted and sometimes killed local humanitarian aid workers;

created nearly 300,000 internally displaced people, most of whom stayed with private families, eating what private stores of food they had managed to save.

In the best of times, Kosovo is not a self-sufficient food producer. By early this year, with planting and harvesting brought to a halt and with food stocks consumed or destroyed, there were no food reserves outside Serbian government shops. Most of the population was dependent on humanitarian aid delivered through a network of U.N. agencies and local and international nongovernmental organizations. That network is gone. The International Committee of the Red Cross, the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees and the World Food Program are out of Kosovo. International nongovernmental groups have been expelled and are now working with refugees outside Kosovo. Local nongovernment groups have been decimated, their staff members lucky to become refugees themselves.

Before NATO's military objectives can be achieved, Milosevic will already have accomplished his objective: Grinding down Kosovo's 1.8 million ethnic Albanians. One rule of war is this: Men with guns do not starve; civilians do. NATO is not going to beat the Yugoslav military by starving them out, and if it did, the civilians would perish long before them.

As hunger and disease loom, various interim steps have been suggested: internal safe havens, food air drops, humanitarian corridors. Each is flawed, largely because each requires cooperation from Milosevic that in all likelihood will never come to be. Milosevic could achieve his aims simply by dragging his feet.

Everyone is concerned about the lives of NATO servicemen, but the people on the executioner's block cannot wait for a risk-free, soldier-friendly environment for their rescue. They can't wait for the amassing of 200,000 troops, if that will take months of buildup and field support. They can't wait for a "permissive environment."

Mass Graves, Mass Denial (PDF)
http://www.bard.edu/bgia/journal/vol2/63-66.pdf

http://www.religioustolerance.org/war_koso.htm
Did the Serbs commit genocide?
Civilian populations are increasingly being targeted during recent civil wars. However, atrocities must match certain specific criteria before they are considered genocide. The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as "certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such. The proscribed acts include killings, causing serious bodily or mental harm, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, forcibly transferring its children to another group, or deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its destruction in whole or in part."
Ethnic cleansing in Bosnia during the mid 1990s started as mass expulsions of civilians. It escalated to include internment in concentration camps, mass executions, rapes, etc. There was a clear policy by the Serbs "to exterminate Muslim Bosnians as a group..." Their actions were generally considered to be genocide. There is a general consensus that widespread atrocities were also committed by the Muslims and the Croats (largely Roman Catholic). But the level of their war crimes did not reach genocidal proportions.

There have been allegations that the Serbs were engaged in genocide in Kosovo before and during the NATO bombing. Media correspondents and human rights investigators conducted large-scale interviews of Kosovar refugees. The data collected show that the Geneva Conventions concerning civilians had been ignored and that extremely serious war crimes were perpetrated by the Yugoslavian army, police and militias. There appeared to be a consensus of human rights investigators that the quantity and type of documented atrocities proved that genocide was committed by the Yugoslavian government against the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. This belief was confirmed as the NATO forces occupied Kosovo. Mass graves were located and are being systematically examined by forensic specialists. Ethnic Albainians came out of hiding with horrendous stories to tell. In excess of 11,000 murders were reported to authorities. According to a report by the U.N.'s chief prosecutor in Yugoslavia, Carla Del Ponte, on 1999-NOV-10, 2,108 complete corpses and an unknown but large number of incompete corpses were found. By 1999-NOV, a total of 195 grave sites in Kosovo had been analyzed; another four hundred remained to be investigated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2147781.stm
Mass grave found near Srebrenica
Tuesday, 23 July, 2002, 22:35 GMT 23:35 UK
Forensic experts in Bosnia have discovered a mass grave in the north-east of the country, close to the site of the Srebrenica massacre in 1995. It is thought the grave contains the bodies of Bosnian Muslims killed by Bosnian Serb forces after they captured Srebrenica.

Skeletons 'incomplete'
The grave site was discovered on Monday near the Serb-held village of Kamenica, some 70 kilometres (45 miles) north-east of Sarajevo.

The commission said it had "reliable proof" that the remains were transported to the grave from another location, in order to conceal the remains from war crime investigators.

He said some of the skeletons were incomplete, and that others were found with their hands bound by wire.

More than 7,000 Bosnian Muslims were killed after the fall of Srebrenica, in the worst massacre Europe has seen since World War II.

So far 6,000 bodies have been exhumed from numerous mass graves around the town, but only 300 have been identified.


Bosnian Serb wartime leader Radovan Karadzic and his army chief Ratko Mladic have been implicated in the Srebrenica massacres.


New mass grave found in Kosovo as Milosevic trial nears
Posted: 02/11/2002 11:10 amLast Updated: 2002-02-11 11:58:09-05
Kroni I Mbretit, Yugoslavia - Kosovo villagers have discovered a new mass grave, just two days before former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic goes on trial for engineering genocide in their province.

The remains were uncovered in western Kosovo on Sunday. The remains of up to 20 bodies were found in a shallow grave by children playing in the area.

Several villagers living near the grave will offer testimony in the upcoming trial of Milosevic, which starts tomorrow in the Hague, but their testimony will focus on other events, and not the grave uncovered Sunday.
http://www.wndu.com/news/022002/news_12301.php

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/09/09/serb.grave/
BELGRADE, Yugoslavia -- Serbian forensic experts have discovered another mass grave near a lake in southwestern Serbia.
The grave is believed to contain bodies of ethnic Albanians killed during the 1999 war in Kosovo

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/06/11/bosnia.pit/index.html
Bosnia mass grave found
June 11, 2001 Posted: 3:58 AM EDT (0758 GMT)
MOUNT MALUSA, Bosnia -- A mass grave containing bodies of victims of the notorious Foca prison camp has been discovered in Bosnia, Reuters has reported.
Bosnian Muslim officials found the grave hidden deep in a dense forest after receiving a letter signed by "a Serb from Foca," the agency said.


Rice for SOS hearings:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/19/politics/19cnd-rtex.h ...
"My last point has to do with Milosevic. You said you can't compare the two dictators. You know, you're right; no two tyrants are alike. But the fact is Milosevic started wars that killed 200,000 in Bosnia, 10,000 in Kosovo and thousands in Croatia, and he was nabbed and he's out without an American dying for it. That's the facts. Now I suppose we could have gone in there and people could have killed to get him. The fact is not one person wants either of those two to see the light of day, again. And in one case we did it without Americans dying. In the other case, we did it with Americans dying. And I think if you ask the average American, you know, was Saddam worth one life, one American life, they'd say, "No, he's the bottom of the barrel." And the fact is we've lost so many lives over it. So if we do get a little testy on the point, and I admit to be so, it's because it continues day in and day out, and 25 percent of the dead are from California.
We cannot forget. We cannot forget that.
Thank you. "




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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. So, what about the 10-20,000 Serbs killed in the ethnic cleansing--
--of the Krajina, and the hundreds of thousands displaced? Is that OK because it was supported by the US rather than opposed?

BTW, the mass graves in Kosovo were filled AFTER and BECAUSE of the NATO bombing.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. considering your sources.....that you have provided (none)
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 10:58 AM by FrenchieCat
folks in the graves were not killed by bombs.....according to forensics--


There has never been confirmation of 10-20,000 Serbs killed....

Face it! You are a Milosovic apologist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1520469

"Good afternoon. It's a real honor for me to be here with General Clark, and with Edita Tahiri. My name is Samantha Power. I spent about seven years looking into American responses to genocide in the twentieth century, and discovered something that may not surprise you but that did surprise me, which was that until 1999 the United States had actually never intervened to prevent genocide in our nation's history. Successive American presidents had done an absolutely terrific job pledging never again, and remembering the holocaust, but ultimately when genocide confronted them, they weighed the costs and the benefits of intervention, and they decided that the risks of getting involved were actually far greater than the other non-costs from the standpoint of the American public, of staying uninvolved or being bystanders. That changed in the mid-1990s, and it changed in large measure because General Clark rose through the ranks of the American military.

The mark of leadership is not to standup when everybody is standing, but rather to actually stand up when no one else is standing. And it was Pentagon reluctance to intervene in Rwanda, and in Bosnia, that actually made it much, much easier for political leaders to turn away. When the estimates started coming out of the Pentagon that were much more constructive, and proactive, and creative, one of the many deterrents to intervention melted away. And so I think, again, in discussing briefly the General's testimony, it's important to remember why he was able to testify at the Hague, and he testified because he decided to own something that was politically very, very unfashionable at the time."
http://www.kiddingonthesquare.com/2004/01/index.html
-------------------------------------------------------
Join your fellow Brethens!

"You can support the troops but not the president" ---Rep. Tom Delay
(R-TX)

" President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a
foreign
country with an ill-defined objective and no exit
strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will
cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long
they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound
foreign policy." ---Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the
administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign
policy." ---Rep. Tom Delay (R-TX)

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they
have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
---Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W. Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . . I
didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area." ---Senator
Trent Lott (R-MS)

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're
going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years." ---Joe Scarborough
(R-FL)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it
is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just
learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with
very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later,
these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of
engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition
of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is
no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our
over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital
national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war
when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan
today" -Rep. Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may
come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their
life?" ---Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to
explain to us what the exit strategy is." -Governor George W. Bush
(R-TX)



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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. What ever happened to the allegation
That DeLay was on the take from the Russians when he opposed the Kosovo intervention? I know I read it somewhere, altho I'm not sure it was a reputable source.

Not that he needed Russian money to oppose anything Clinton and the Democrats tried to accomplish. But seems to me that if there's any truth to the charge, his actions slip from bribery into treason.
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New Government Donating Member (241 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. You're on the wrong side
Milosevic was TRULY fighting Muslim terrorism in Kosovo, long before 9-11. Bush is using many of the same words of Milosevic about protecting our country. The difference is, Milosevic meant it, was truly doing something about it and is now vilified for it. They call him, "The Butcher of the Balkans"...in truth, Milosevic was a patriot to the Serb people and for greater Yugoslavia. All the "sources" you need can be found here. They are detailed, and documented:
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/
Up is down, down is up. Black is white, white is black.
Bush and America's Orwellian world. May providence save us all.

---
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. you can't be serious using that as a source
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. and Bush is not protecting our country either
i don't care what words he uses. and many he has used admitted he didn't care to fight terrorism also. but his actions show he doesn't care.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Albanian Muslims were the Terrorists?
Boy, They had me fooled! :wow:


The bodies of Gentiona and Donietta Deliaj, seven and five-years old, being removed from the site of the massacre in the forest near Donje Obrinje, Kosovo. Eighteen members of the Deliaj family were killed in the attack.


Valmir Deljiaj, an eighteen-month-old infant girl, was found dead at the Donje Obrinje massacre site in Kosovo. She is partially covered by the body of her mother, Mejhare Deljaij, aged twenty-seven, who died from a gunshot wound to the head.


An elderly Kosovar Albanian woman looks out through the fence of the Kukes 1 refugee camp in northern Albania, near the border with Kosovo. April 1999


An elderly villager weeping at the site of the Donje Obrinje, Kosovo massacre. Eighteen members of the Deliaj family were killed in the attack.


Or just watch a movie or two!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1520469

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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. terrorists
Sunday Times - London

Copyright 1998

Sunday, November 29, 1998

Bin Laden opens European terror base in Albania

Chris Stephen in Tirana

ALBANIAN authorities working with the Central Intelligence Agency claim to have uncovered a terrorist network operated by Osama Bin Laden, the Islamic fundamentalist accused of masterminding the African embassy bombings last August.

The network is said to have been set up to use Albania, a Muslim country, as a springboard for operations in Europe.

(...) Apparent confirmation of Bin Laden's activities came earlier this month when Claude Kader, 27, a French national and self-confessed member of Bin Laden's Albanian network, was jailed for the murder of a local trans lator. He claimed during his trial that he had visited Albania to recruit and arm fighters for Kosovo, and that four of his associates were still at large.

Bin Laden is believed to have established an operation in Albania in 1994 after telling the government that he was head of a wealthy Saudi humanitarian agency keen to help Europe's poorest nation. ...

--------------------------------
http://www.kosovo.com/ismilit.html



CHRIS HEDGES: (...) There certainly was mujahideen in Bosnia. I actually went into one of their camps and interviewed them.

(...) I think, also, on Kosovo, it’s the Albanian security service that picked Thaci up. I knew him when he was just this sort of local thug in a province called Drenica, driving around in an old Zastava with a trunk load of weapons, oversaw the assassination of most of his rivals and provided him, not only with weapons, but, you know, a small black army of Albanian intelligence officers, not only to protect him, but help him organize and raise this sort of fractious rebellion that we know as the Kosovo Liberation Army. So there were many hands in there.

---------------------------------
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/13/1429239




On June 28, 2001 the German daily newspaper. 'Hamburger Abendblatt,' ran a story on the situation in Macedonia. Part of the story dealt with the rescue, with weapons, of Albanian so-called rebels from the town of Aracinovo, which was followed by mass protests a few days ago in Skopje, the Macedonian capital.

The story revealed that 17 U.S. 'instructors' or 'advisors' were among the terrorists. We do not know exactly who these American 'instructors' were. Very possibly they were from the MPRI, which functions as a kind of privatized combination CIA/Special Forces, doing jobs very much like those performed by U.S. advisors early in the Vietnam War. That is, the MPRI is very much an arm of U.S. policy in the age of privatization. This is of course very serious business because it means the U.S. is waging a war of terror.


US ADVISERS HELPED ALBANIAN REBELS
by Franz Josef Hutsch and Cornel Faltin) Skopje


A delicate task was posed for the American peace keepers from Kosovo in neighboring Macedonia. On the one hand 400 Albanian Guerillas with their weapons and ammunition had to be transported out of Aracinovo, which is situated six kilometers north of the capital, Skopje. The 113the UCK brigade had entrenched itself there for two weeks to defend itself against violent attacks. The second part of the task was more explosive. Among the retreating rebels there were also 17 " instructors" - former US officers, who tutored the rebel in military matters. But this isn't all: Macedonian security circles maintain that 70 per cent of the equipment that was carried away by the Guerillas were US made - among them also the most modern type of third generation night-viewers. The Pentagon appeared not to be taken by surprise. "I don't want to confirm these facts," says lieutenant colonel Paul Phillip, monotonously. US journalists take this sort of diplomatic language as confirmation. If this is the case, the proposed NATO operation to disarm the rebels would become a complete farce.

------------------------------------
http://www.tenc.net/docs/advise.htm



Franz-Josef Hutsch confirmed this in the Milosevic trial.

MPRI was also used for dirty work in Croatia, where "Operation Storm" was directed by their "advisors", according to Hutsch, who personally witnessed such MPRI advisors giving orders to Croatian officers. Agim Ceku, now head of the administration in Kosovo (while being sought in Belgrade for war crimes), excelled as ethnic cleanser in this campaign.

Officially, MPRI are busy training the armies of Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Afghanistan, Iraq: http://www.mpri.com/index.html They do not mention undercover operations on their site.



Thaci, Kouchner, Jackson, Ceku, Clark
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. Funny that you quoted Chris Hedges about Terrorists. I will also...
This interview mostly dealt with the war in Iraq, but Chris talked about his time in Kosovo also:

"War Is Not A Noble Enterprise"

By Sarah Ruth van Gelder, YES! Magazine. Posted December 13, 2004.


An interview with New York Times war correspondent Chris Hedges on the Iraq war, the trauma facing returning soldiers and the killing of innocent Iraqis.


..."When I covered the war in Kosovo, the Serbs would go into villages and gun down innocent people, families — line them up against the wall and kill them. Then they would block the roads into the village so that we reporters couldn’t get in. We would have to walk in, often for hours and hours, chronicle what happened, at great danger to ourselves, and then get the news out and publish it.

That didn’t stop the Serbs from getting up the next morning and killing again. But we found that our activity sustained us, because it was an act of resistance. It made it harder for the Serb forces to deny that the killing had taken place. It chronicled yet one more atrocity against innocent civilians, innocent Kosovar Albanians.

I think the cumulative effect of taking a moral stance, over time, is slow and hard and frustrating. If you go back and read Martin Luther King’s autobiography, you see what kind of despair he faced in the early years of the Civil Rights movement."

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/20725

And again we read here in the Philadelphia Inquirer about Chris Hedges experiences in Bosnia and Kosovo:


Posted on Sun, Jan. 23, 2005

Journalists' objectivity needs balance of truth.

Chris Hedges was a foreign correspondent for nearly two decades and is author of "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning"

"Balance and objectivity, without a strong commitment to the truth, can turn journalism into farce. It was impossible to witness the army massacres in El Salvador or the murder of children by Bosnian Serb snipers in Sarajevo without being revolted. I hated these crimes. I took risks, along with many of my colleagues, to expose and explain them. And I wanted, through my reporting, to get the world to wake up and put an end to the wholesale murder of innocents.

This commitment, however, was effective only when we were rigorous about telling the truth. It is this moral core, this belief that we can contribute to an open society and make the world a better place, that keeps me and other reporters focused on truth as well as balance and objectivity.

In Kosovo, the Serbian police would enter villages, separate the men from the women, and then lead the men off to be executed. The Serbs closed the roads to mask their killings. Reporters, photographers and camera crews would often walk, sometimes a few miles, to get into the villages and report the massacre. We always contacted Serb authorities, as we should have, to print their response. But balance, pushed to its absurd conclusion, would mean giving the killers equal time. Objectivity, as defined by those who never leave air-conditioned broadcast booths, would ask us not to feel anything as we stood over the bodies of fathers and sons. We always walked away and thought that we had not done enough. And, to be honest, I have sat with reporters and photographers hours later in seedy hotel rooms as they wept. And I have wept myself."

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/10709238.htm?1c


Chris will be the first to say that atrocities are committed by all sides during armed conflicts, but the systematic slaughter of all of the men in entire villages in Bosnia and Kosovo was a specialty of those who were inspired and directed by Milosevic. The war crimes tribunal found some non Serbs guilty of war crimes also, that is of course a fact, but it doesn't disguise the fact that nationalist Serbs were responsible for most of the war crimes, or that Milosevic intentionally fanned the flames of ethic hatred as a way to consolidate his power inside Yugoslavia.

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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. ok, so maybe we can get somewhere
if you can show me

"that Milosevic intentionally fanned the flames of ethic hatred as a way to consolidate his power inside Yugoslavia."

Got a link?
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. There is a wealth of information
about human rights violations, the international tribunal, the standards being used to determine Milosevics culpability/responsiblilty, the chain of command including the Yugolsav Army, the Regular Police, the Secret Police, etc. Other Courts and Trials looking at human rights violations, analysis of the current political situation and how it is being affected by the Milosevic trial, information pertaining to KLA, etc. At the Humans Rights Watch website:

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=justice_balkans

I would also suggest you pick up a copy of "War is a Force which Gives Us Meaning", by Chris Hedges. In addition to a thorough discussion of the what drives wars, there is much historical information including his own on the ground experiences in the Balkans. He discusses what the Serbian government was doing to drive the Nationalism that lead to atrocities and how the other ethnic groups responded often in like manner.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. thanks, I have information; what I specifically asked for was

for evidence

"that Milosevic intentionally fanned the flames of ethic hatred as a way to consolidate his power inside Yugoslavia."

Since this is what you claim.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #64
67. Here is the problem we will continue to have
In virtually all cases, both innocent or guilty, the accused will mount a defense. It is the exception rather than the rule for those accused of serious crimes to admit guilt. Why do I state the obvious? Simple. Milosevic had a defense, and he presented it in the Hague over a course of years, and you fully accept that defense as truth. There will be no magic bullet link that either I or anyone else can give you that will create an "Aha!" moment when you will suddenly say "Oh, now I understand. Milosevic is a war criminal. Thanks for that information." It's not going to happen. I know it and you know it. If the trial in the Hague managed to drag out over 5 years, it is certain to me that no one will debunk Milosevic's defense to your satisfaction within a few more post exchanges here. If I did not have to leave for an extended work trip in a couple of hours I still might humor you and seek out further information to post in response to you, but that wouldn't end our dispute.

This however is a fact. Milosevic was indicted by a United Nations court, and he was standing trial for crimes against humanity. The charges were serious and they were heavily documented. The full record is there for all to read.

In the course of this thread I have seen a number of arguments advanced on behalf of Milosevic. Just above we shifted focus from a denial of the systematic Serb police initiated pattern of mass executions of Kosovo villagers to the "Milosovic's hands were clean" retort. Milosovic's hands were clean the same way that John Gotti's hands were clean. The Godfather wasn't at the scene of the crimes, he never is. His fingerprints are never on the murder weapon.

Denial is the standard first line of defense against the crime of genocide. The Turks still deny the murder of a million Armenians at the start of the 20th century. They flat out deny it. That's their story and they're sticking to it. Books are still written that deny the Holocaust ever happened. Iran's President denies the Holocaust ever happened. But the Holocaust did happen, even if there is nothing I can say that will ever make the President of Iran retract his claim. Sometimes the easiest lies to peddle are the biggest ones of all.

There are other defenses employed of course. When absolute denial loses all plausibility than the fall back is to minimize, to say it was not such a big event. Then there is the blame your victims and/or enemies defense "We didn't do it, they brought this on themselves". There is also the "everyone was doing it" defense which obscures any discussion of degrees of relative guilt. There are many variations on all those themes.

People can look at compelling evidence and still disagree. Creationists view the same fossil record that Darwinists do, but they say evolution never happened. Nope, science has it wrong they say. Books are published on that subject also. Clark is right. It's a shame that Milosovich died before an official verdict on his guilt could be rendered.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. actually
Edited on Wed Mar-15-06 01:29 PM by reorg
"We" didn't shift focus - and I don't recall anyone saying "Milosevic's hands were clean".

I asked a simple question: Can you provide evidence

"that Milosevic intentionally fanned the flames of ethic hatred as a way to consolidate his power inside Yugoslavia."

Since you are stating this as fact, evidence should not be too hard to come by. "Fanning the flames" would be done via speeches and declarations. A "nationalist" who is "fanning the flames of ethnic hatred" without leaving incriminating traces in publicly available documents?

I don't think even John Gotti was "fanning the flames of ethnic hatred", so that comparison would be poorly chosen. I would agree, though, that running larger entities with a standing military and the legal monopoly to apply force are probably similar to crime syndicates in many cases.

But let me add that I find your Nazi references a little sickening, coming from someone who appears to make apologies for a clearly illegal war of aggression (and if you need proof for that, I can provide it).
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. My last post on this thread.
Without a library of videos or transcripts from reliable sources I am not sure that we can internet link you the evidence you cry for. Perhaps you should have been one of his advisors at the Hague. I did snoop around with google and read what is purported to be the text of his speech in Kosovo 1989. It appears he was very slippery, but there were strong signs in the speech that he was downgrading the status of albanians and muslims by not mentioning them at all for instance, and praising the serbs for always being liberating to others, as if to say the rightful place for serbs is to maintain power over the other ethnic groups. The speech was certainly nationalistic. Anyways, I can see how we can pick quotes and you can pick quotes and we can argue it all day. The best evidence that is available to me is the political changes he made which Tom has already pointed out and the writings of Chris Hedges and other reporters who risked their lives to bring the story out, people who really had no dog in the hunt other than reporting what they saw, and the international rights groups as well.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. it seems to me
that you are jumping up and down but cannot provide a SINGLE quote that would support your contention

"that Milosevic intentionally fanned the flames of ethic hatred as a way to consolidate his power inside Yugoslavia."

So you come up with the one speech that was cited over and over again. It was held in front of members of the Serb minority who had loudly complained they were being harrassed by Kosovo Albanian nationalists, the latter being a weird mixture of fascists, Hoxha "communists" and whatnot - Hedges vividly describes them in his article in Foreign Affairs. These Albanian nationalists had used rape, arson attacks and murder to drive the Serbs out, beginning at least in the early eighties. So, Milosevic made some reassuring remarks to the Serb minority and insisted that Kosovo belongs to Serbia. He never "fanned the flames of ethnic hatred" in this speech. I guess that's the reason why you chose not to provide a verbatim quote.

For everyone who is interested and doesn't know where to look: go to www.tenc.net, there is an excellent analysis of this speech to the Serbs of Kosovo.

I personally don't think the Yugoslav and Serbian leadership held to Kosovo for purely sentimental reasons, or to protect the Serb minority. It was about the Trepka mines, and the fact that at the time there was still hope that Yugoslavia would remain whole, a non-aligned state and a regional power that now no longer exists.






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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. Of course he "intentionally fanned the flames" but it doesn't matter
Milosevic came to power by promoting nationalistic fervor. There is video of his publicly promising Kosovar Serbs that he would protect their power at all costs.

But like I said, it doesn't matter. By the standard of international law, as head of state he only had to have foreknowledge of the effect. It is expected that he take whatever necessary action to prevent ANY atrocity by anyone under his command, to the extent humanly possible. And prosecute anyone who commits such an act anyway.

He never even tried.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. got a link?
I think I saw the video you mentioned. He promised to protect the rights of the Serb minority - to stay in Kosovo and not be harrassed.

What do you mean when you say "promising Kosovor Serbs that he would protect their power at all costs"? What power? At "all costs"? Could you provide the specific quote? I am positive that he didn't say that. The issue was extensively dealt with both by the prosecution and the defense in the Milosevic trial, over many days. The videos and transcripts are available there. If you need help I can point you to the specific dates.

http://hague.bard.edu/video.html

As to the rest I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Foreknowledge of what? What atrocity are you talking about? Of course, as supreme commander of the military he was responsible to prevent atrocities and he has acknowledged this many times. There were in fact war crimes prosecuted under Milosevic, evidence for this is available in court documents at The Hague. Soldiers were warned to follow the rules. On the other hand, it was his responsibility to stop the insurgency, don't you think?

And don't forget, up until the NATO bombings, there was a small army of foreign oberservers on the ground who immediately investigated everything and alerted the public when they saw something fishy. And yet, it is still not quite clear what actually happened in Racak, for instance, and in other places.











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New Government Donating Member (241 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
74. That's right! Learn the TRUTH about SERBIA!!!!!
KLA = Muslim terrorists according to our own State Department in 1997.
People, the whole charade against Milosevic and the SPS (Socialist Party of Serbia) is garbage. Too many here are doing what they accuse the Bushbots of doing, just drinking the Kool-Aid of the same people and media who have tried to sell us the Iraq war.

Frenchie: Pix of dead babies can be found all around. In Kosovo today, they are SERBIAN babies killed by the KLA monsters.

Please - research and discover the TRUTH. Downtown Belgrade was bombed by the USA and NATO to bring Serbia "into line".....it had NOTHING to do with "genocide" and all the other clap-trap I hear spoken of here.

DU should know better.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
61. "folks in the graves were not killed by bombs.....according to forensics"
I never said they were. I said they were killed in retaliation for the bombings, AFTER the bombings occurred. Had any of the imperial globalizers bothered to take up the Serb Parliament on their plan to put Kosovo under a UN mandate, none of it would have happened.

Face it, you are an apologist for the Nazis Tudjman and Itzbegovic, and a cheerleader for the mass murder and ethnic cleansing of the Krajina. Milosevic was of course every bit as much of a promoter of rabid xenophobia as the other two--the only difference is that he refused to sell his country to the multinationals. BTW, IMO the world leader Milosevic most resembles is Ariel Sharon, and I most certainly do not intend the comparison to be flattering.
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
58. Milosevic definitely was a war criminal
Hopefully, we'll soon be seeing Bush and the gang on trial at the Hague.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
65. "wrong medicine" in Milosevic's blood

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,6119,2-10-1462_1897080,00.html

The Hague - Former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic deliberately took a drug that neutralised the effects of his heart medicine, an expert who examined his blood said on Monday as the UN war crimes court prepared to release his body.

"I am sure he took the medicine himself because he wanted a one-way ticket to Moscow (for treatment)," Dutch toxicologist Donald Uges told AFP, a day after an official autopsy concluded Milosevic died of a heart attack.

"That is why he took rifampicine," a powerful antibiotic used to treat leprosy or tuberculosis that countered the effects of Milosevic's heart medication, said Uges.

Uges, a toxicologist for the University of Groningen, said he examined Milosevic's blood two weeks ago at the request of the Dutch doctors who wanted to know why his blood pressure was not dropping despite medication.

<more>

======


Personally i'm not convinced he deliberatly took the medicine.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. At this point, unfortunately, I don't really give a shit about
Milosovic.

He may become somebody's martyr....but it won't be me!
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. martyr or not
Would you think it is in line with the declared "humanitarian" objective of the NATO intervention to poison the supposed arch enemy in his prison cell? From the way you are arguing here I get the impression you couldn't care less.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. I followed Bosnia/Kosovo pretty closely, and based on my information
Edited on Wed Mar-15-06 07:06 PM by FrenchieCat
I came to a particular conclusion....as I don't normally wait for others to tell me what I should conclude about events that happen.

So if you want to follow and opine on conspiracy theories for his death, you can.....

Me, I've got more important things to do like attempting to understand Darfur and what is going on there.

PS. Hitler probably had a story too, had he lived long enough.
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